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On October 29 2020 06:33 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 06:23 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:05 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times. One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster. This is absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect at that. Larva has never reached a win-rate bigger than 30% over a significant period of time over Flash. On the contrary, most of the time he gets absolutely wrecked at a higher clip than most other Zergs. Your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Insinuating that protoss pros "don't try new things". Given their winning percentages I'd beg to differ and say that they are the ones exploring new options. You don't seem to be well informed at all, I suggest you do a little bit of research before your next post. Just a friendly tip.
This is rich coming from you.
Check out the recorded stats of their games, buddy: https://sponbbang.com/profile/?bj_id=1
Larva has a pathetic record against Flash and that has always been the case. Larva did not make Flash do anything in re: to his strategy or build orders.
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On October 29 2020 06:39 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 06:33 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 06:23 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:05 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times. One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster. This is absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect at that. Larva has never reached a win-rate bigger than 30% over a significant period of time over Flash. On the contrary, most of the time he gets absolutely wrecked at a higher clip than most other Zergs. Your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Insinuating that protoss pros "don't try new things". Given their winning percentages I'd beg to differ and say that they are the ones exploring new options. You don't seem to be well informed at all, I suggest you do a little bit of research before your next post. Just a friendly tip. This is rich coming from you. Check out the recorded stats of their games, buddy: https://sponbbang.com/profile/?bj_id=1Larva has a pathetic record against Flash and that has always been the case. Larva did not make Flash do anything in re: to his strategy or build orders.
You're taking stances about things I've never even alluded to. You're the one who said "extended period of time". I couldn't care less. I've seen Larva beat Flash multiple games in a row (let's say, for maybe a week), and Flash would come back with a different playstyle and get the advantage back. Flash is a much superior and talented player than Larva... so of course the overall winrate is gonna be in Flash's favor.
Again, you're arguing about things I've never said. Read my first post again. I was talking about the meta going back and forth, which 100% happened. You can relax now.
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On October 29 2020 06:39 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 06:33 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 06:23 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:05 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times. One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster. This is absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect at that. Larva has never reached a win-rate bigger than 30% over a significant period of time over Flash. On the contrary, most of the time he gets absolutely wrecked at a higher clip than most other Zergs. Your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Insinuating that protoss pros "don't try new things". Given their winning percentages I'd beg to differ and say that they are the ones exploring new options. You don't seem to be well informed at all, I suggest you do a little bit of research before your next post. Just a friendly tip. This is rich coming from you. Check out the recorded stats of their games, buddy: https://sponbbang.com/profile/?bj_id=1Larva has a pathetic record against Flash and that has always been the case. Larva did not make Flash do anything in re: to his strategy or build orders.
On a lighter note, what they did have is that incredible game, can't find it now. Larva fought with virtually broodlings vs Flash who was trying to set up a new base in the middle of the map. If anyone knows, it's one of the craziest games I've ever seen.
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On October 29 2020 06:45 Rainalcar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 06:39 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:33 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 06:23 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:05 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times. One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster. This is absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect at that. Larva has never reached a win-rate bigger than 30% over a significant period of time over Flash. On the contrary, most of the time he gets absolutely wrecked at a higher clip than most other Zergs. Your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Insinuating that protoss pros "don't try new things". Given their winning percentages I'd beg to differ and say that they are the ones exploring new options. You don't seem to be well informed at all, I suggest you do a little bit of research before your next post. Just a friendly tip. This is rich coming from you. Check out the recorded stats of their games, buddy: https://sponbbang.com/profile/?bj_id=1Larva has a pathetic record against Flash and that has always been the case. Larva did not make Flash do anything in re: to his strategy or build orders. On a lighter note, what they did have is that incredible game, can't find it now. Larva fought with virtually broodlings vs Flash who was trying to set up a new base in the middle of the map. If anyone knows, it's one of the craziest games I've ever seen.
These kind of games were regular occurrence at their peak.
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On October 29 2020 06:46 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 06:45 Rainalcar wrote:On October 29 2020 06:39 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:33 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 06:23 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:05 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times. One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster. This is absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect at that. Larva has never reached a win-rate bigger than 30% over a significant period of time over Flash. On the contrary, most of the time he gets absolutely wrecked at a higher clip than most other Zergs. Your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Insinuating that protoss pros "don't try new things". Given their winning percentages I'd beg to differ and say that they are the ones exploring new options. You don't seem to be well informed at all, I suggest you do a little bit of research before your next post. Just a friendly tip. This is rich coming from you. Check out the recorded stats of their games, buddy: https://sponbbang.com/profile/?bj_id=1Larva has a pathetic record against Flash and that has always been the case. Larva did not make Flash do anything in re: to his strategy or build orders. On a lighter note, what they did have is that incredible game, can't find it now. Larva fought with virtually broodlings vs Flash who was trying to set up a new base in the middle of the map. If anyone knows, it's one of the craziest games I've ever seen. These kind of games were regular occurrence at their peak.
I've watched plenty, nothing like this one.
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On October 29 2020 06:48 Rainalcar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 06:46 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 06:45 Rainalcar wrote:On October 29 2020 06:39 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:33 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 06:23 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:05 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times. One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster. This is absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect at that. Larva has never reached a win-rate bigger than 30% over a significant period of time over Flash. On the contrary, most of the time he gets absolutely wrecked at a higher clip than most other Zergs. Your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Insinuating that protoss pros "don't try new things". Given their winning percentages I'd beg to differ and say that they are the ones exploring new options. You don't seem to be well informed at all, I suggest you do a little bit of research before your next post. Just a friendly tip. This is rich coming from you. Check out the recorded stats of their games, buddy: https://sponbbang.com/profile/?bj_id=1Larva has a pathetic record against Flash and that has always been the case. Larva did not make Flash do anything in re: to his strategy or build orders. On a lighter note, what they did have is that incredible game, can't find it now. Larva fought with virtually broodlings vs Flash who was trying to set up a new base in the middle of the map. If anyone knows, it's one of the craziest games I've ever seen. These kind of games were regular occurrence at their peak. I've watched plenty, nothing like this one.
Okay, maybe you have something specific in mind, tell me if you find it.
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On October 29 2020 06:39 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 06:33 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 06:23 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:05 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times. One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster. This is absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect at that. Larva has never reached a win-rate bigger than 30% over a significant period of time over Flash. On the contrary, most of the time he gets absolutely wrecked at a higher clip than most other Zergs. Your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Insinuating that protoss pros "don't try new things". Given their winning percentages I'd beg to differ and say that they are the ones exploring new options. You don't seem to be well informed at all, I suggest you do a little bit of research before your next post. Just a friendly tip. This is rich coming from you. Check out the recorded stats of their games, buddy: https://sponbbang.com/profile/?bj_id=1Larva has a pathetic record against Flash and that has always been the case. Larva did not make Flash do anything in re: to his strategy or build orders.
Larva is the player who discovered the queen -> broodling counter to the dreaded late game mech transition. It can be argued that he's the main reason zerg is still playable against terran. I'm not exaggerating when I say it's comparable to Bisu's revolutionary usage of DT's.
After Larva had discovered the queen transition and further improved on it, Flash fought tooth and nails to reclaim the mech transition as the dreaded monster it used to be. He failed. Instead Flash started playing more aggressively in the middle game and started dominating Larva with m&m's.
Due to all of this, mech transition is considered a neccessary evil, sometimes even just a last resort. Terran players fear having to transition into late game mech because zerg is simply stronger at that point in the game (at least in the current meta).
Yes, Larva never had a positive winning record against Flash, but there was a time when he gave him a run for his money. That was after he discovered the queen tech.
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On October 29 2020 06:53 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 06:39 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:33 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 06:23 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:05 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times. One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster. This is absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect at that. Larva has never reached a win-rate bigger than 30% over a significant period of time over Flash. On the contrary, most of the time he gets absolutely wrecked at a higher clip than most other Zergs. Your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Insinuating that protoss pros "don't try new things". Given their winning percentages I'd beg to differ and say that they are the ones exploring new options. You don't seem to be well informed at all, I suggest you do a little bit of research before your next post. Just a friendly tip. This is rich coming from you. Check out the recorded stats of their games, buddy: https://sponbbang.com/profile/?bj_id=1Larva has a pathetic record against Flash and that has always been the case. Larva did not make Flash do anything in re: to his strategy or build orders. Larva is the player who discovered the queen -> broodling counter to the dreaded late game mech transition. It can be argued that he's the main reason zerg is still playable against terran. I'm not exaggerating when I say it's comparable to Bisu's revolutionary usage of DT's. After Larva had discovered the queen transition and further improved on it, Flash fought tooth and nails to reclaim the mech transition as the dreaded monster it used to be. He failed. Instead Flash started playing more aggressively in the middle game and started dominating Larva with m&m's. Due to all of this, mech transition is considered a neccessary evil, sometimes even just a last resort. Terran players fear having to transition into late game mech because zerg is simply stronger at that point in the game (at least in the current meta). Yes, Larva never had a positive winning record against Flash, but there was a time when he gave him a run for his money. That was after he discovered the queen tech.
Pretty much, yeah, thank you.
The overall point, though, was that terran and zerg players are willing to push the meta for their respective race while the protoss meta stays stagnant. Protoss players need to be better and smarter.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times.
I read this and I instantly recall the guy that was so adamant that BW/SC:R needs a patch to liven up because all Z did was 2 hatch and 3 hatch builds vs Terran.
I know I'm not contributing to the discussion, just let's remember every once in a while we deal with incomplete information AND we have psychological blind spots even if we try to keep bias to a minimum.
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On October 29 2020 06:49 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 06:48 Rainalcar wrote:On October 29 2020 06:46 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 06:45 Rainalcar wrote:On October 29 2020 06:39 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:33 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 06:23 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:05 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times. One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster. This is absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect at that. Larva has never reached a win-rate bigger than 30% over a significant period of time over Flash. On the contrary, most of the time he gets absolutely wrecked at a higher clip than most other Zergs. Your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Insinuating that protoss pros "don't try new things". Given their winning percentages I'd beg to differ and say that they are the ones exploring new options. You don't seem to be well informed at all, I suggest you do a little bit of research before your next post. Just a friendly tip. This is rich coming from you. Check out the recorded stats of their games, buddy: https://sponbbang.com/profile/?bj_id=1Larva has a pathetic record against Flash and that has always been the case. Larva did not make Flash do anything in re: to his strategy or build orders. On a lighter note, what they did have is that incredible game, can't find it now. Larva fought with virtually broodlings vs Flash who was trying to set up a new base in the middle of the map. If anyone knows, it's one of the craziest games I've ever seen. These kind of games were regular occurrence at their peak. I've watched plenty, nothing like this one. Okay, maybe you have something specific in mind, tell me if you find it.
www.youtube.com
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Norway28894 Posts
Seems pretty damn intuitive that we just need to bring back more island maps.  ))
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On October 29 2020 07:02 Rainalcar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 06:49 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 06:48 Rainalcar wrote:On October 29 2020 06:46 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 06:45 Rainalcar wrote:On October 29 2020 06:39 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:33 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 06:23 oxKnu wrote:On October 29 2020 06:05 Essbee wrote:On October 29 2020 05:42 arbiter_md wrote:
In over 10 years of following the scene, I've seen countless times people complaining that things are too hard for P in pvz. Not once have I heard that for Z. It's obvious that most of the people here are just racists cheering for P, and they just whine like babies when their favorites lose./s
Now, of course the maps can be created to be more favorable for P in pvz. But what is called standard maps nowadays makes the match-up broken at its core actually. Why? Because of what I call the imbalance of options. It is well known in game theory that the more options one has, the better his chances to win. So let's look at the options players have in a pvz on a standard map. I mean, viable options:
Z - 5 pool, 2 hatch mass lings, 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch scourge 5 hatch hydra, fast lurker, slow lurker drop, fast lurker drop, slop hydra drop, luker contain. All of them are viable strategies that can be played.
P - FE into hts, FE into reavers, one base fast reaver and FE goons reavers maybe? 2gates in the center of the map maybe? There's the small variation of FE with gate first or forge first. And that's pretty much it.
P ends up playing standard 90% of the time because other options are prone to single errors and cannot really surprise zerg, since they have easy scouting. While Z can go as wild as they want. This advantage of the number of options is especially important in Bo5 where Z can make a plan for every single game and practice it forever. For P that preparation is just practicing reacting to a billion options that Z has to throw at them. The result is that P will not be well prepared for either of those, because he cannot practice every single option too many times. One of the best thing from the Afreeca "era" of starcraft was when Larva and Flash kept playing against each other and Flash was destroying Larva and eventually, by changing his playstyle and units, he was able to beat Flash constantly, so then Flash had to adapt with his 1/1/1 build and they kept going at each other with the domination going both ways. As a result, Larva became an absolute ZvT monster. This is absolutely incorrect. Wildly incorrect at that. Larva has never reached a win-rate bigger than 30% over a significant period of time over Flash. On the contrary, most of the time he gets absolutely wrecked at a higher clip than most other Zergs. Your argument is absolute nonsense as well. Insinuating that protoss pros "don't try new things". Given their winning percentages I'd beg to differ and say that they are the ones exploring new options. You don't seem to be well informed at all, I suggest you do a little bit of research before your next post. Just a friendly tip. This is rich coming from you. Check out the recorded stats of their games, buddy: https://sponbbang.com/profile/?bj_id=1Larva has a pathetic record against Flash and that has always been the case. Larva did not make Flash do anything in re: to his strategy or build orders. On a lighter note, what they did have is that incredible game, can't find it now. Larva fought with virtually broodlings vs Flash who was trying to set up a new base in the middle of the map. If anyone knows, it's one of the craziest games I've ever seen. These kind of games were regular occurrence at their peak. I've watched plenty, nothing like this one. Okay, maybe you have something specific in mind, tell me if you find it. www.youtube.com
Ahhhh yeah I remember now. I guess you are right in saying this is a unique case, that's true. But the overall queen defense against a mass expanding terran was something that Larva was doing incredibly well, but yeah, here it reached a peak here where it came down to the absolute wire.
One of the best game ever.
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This BO4 was a disaster. Not sure it was as much about the maps as players just having a good/bad day. I still prefer new maps over the Fighting Spirit/Circuit Breakers in any case.
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On October 29 2020 06:57 Essbee wrote:
The overall point, though, was that terran and zerg players are willing to push the meta for their respective race while the protoss meta stays stagnant. Protoss players need to be better and smarter.
Finally, someone said it. Protoss pros are just worse than their respective peers. They're slower and don't play as smart.
In my humble opinion, it's due to a selection bias - since T/Z are harder to play than P, worse players stick with P and can relatively keep up since P makes more out of their skills, while better players are able to be successful with T/Z, and since they're just better, they naturally outstrip everyone else in results.
Just look at what Flash did with Protoss, how he beat Snow and Rush so cleanly despite not being a P main. IMHO Protoss players need to experiment with more units and spells. What Larva did with Queens, a unit that had been for the longest time belittled as "theorycraft and unviable," is a great example of how to advance one's race, and a reminder that we haven't figured it all out.
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On October 29 2020 08:17 Light- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 06:57 Essbee wrote:
The overall point, though, was that terran and zerg players are willing to push the meta for their respective race while the protoss meta stays stagnant. Protoss players need to be better and smarter.
Finally, someone said it. Protoss pros are just worse than their respective peers. They're slower and don't play as smart. In my humble opinion, it's due to a selection bias - since T/Z are harder to play than P, worse players stick with P and can relatively keep up since P makes more out of their skills, while better players are able to be successful with T/Z, and since they're just better, they naturally outstrip everyone else in results. Just look at what Flash did with Protoss, how he beat Snow and Rush so cleanly despite not being a P main. IMHO Protoss players need to experiment with more units and spells. What Larva did with Queens, a unit that had been for the longest time belittled as "theorycraft and unviable," is a great example of how to advance one's race, and a reminder that we haven't figured it all out.
This is so accurate because when larva used to offrace a lot in 1.16 days he would always go 2 forge style and beat lot of top tier zergs like soma. He always used to wonder why toss pros weren't really utilizing it. Now, literally every pros go 2 forge. I remember another guy recommending that toss use DA for mutas and what do you know DA was finally utilized. Pros always used to say no.. we tried but its trash! or we'll need 500 apm! but look at flash easily destroying rush with hts..
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On October 29 2020 08:17 Light- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 06:57 Essbee wrote:
The overall point, though, was that terran and zerg players are willing to push the meta for their respective race while the protoss meta stays stagnant. Protoss players need to be better and smarter.
Finally, someone said it. Protoss pros are just worse than their respective peers. They're slower and don't play as smart. In my humble opinion, it's due to a selection bias - since T/Z are harder to play than P, worse players stick with P and can relatively keep up since P makes more out of their skills, while better players are able to be successful with T/Z, and since they're just better, they naturally outstrip everyone else in results. Just look at what Flash did with Protoss, how he beat Snow and Rush so cleanly despite not being a P main. IMHO Protoss players need to experiment with more units and spells. What Larva did with Queens, a unit that had been for the longest time belittled as "theorycraft and unviable," is a great example of how to advance one's race, and a reminder that we haven't figured it all out.
The bolded is exactly what I think too, thank you. Protoss players generally pick up bad habits because the race is easier to play at first. But once you reach progamer level, you need to be faster, better and smarter. Jangbi is the example I'll always come back to for being a proper high level protoss player. He had near 400 apm and was able to use every single protoss unit (I guess except scouts lol) at an extremely high level. He was unpredictable (one of the overlooked strength of protoss) and could beat anyone on any map at his peak. Too bad he had stage fright for such a long time. Bisu is close (also high apm) but his vT is still an enigma that I don't understand to this day.
If a protoss player can dominate terrans (Jangbi), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
If a protoss player can dominate zergs (Bisu), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
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Norway28894 Posts
The dweb revolution is long overdue.
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On October 28 2020 18:54 Avi-Love wrote:
Why are you guys even arguing about this, it's quite evident that Snow and Best play vastly different to one another, and as such they will have different levels of success based on stylistic matchups. Snow has historically always gotten smashed by Soma, so the result of that series was pretty much expected, the betting odds were very close to even for the record, and I for one bet a lot of money on Soma to win. Best does way better vs Soma, but Snow does better against Action and Larva.
Best does better vs Zero than any other protoss, with Bisu being a close second. I fully expected Best vs Zero to go all 5 games, but Best left his skill at home and had a rough day at the office, happens to almost everyone. He has always been a habitual choker/disappointment, so in hindsight it's not that surprising, also having to pick map 2/4 rather than 1/3 hurt his chances of re-gaining any sort of momentum. Once you lose on your best map, and as a result you're going into Benzene with the score at 0-2 you've probably already given up mentally.
thing about historical records is they're.. historical. zero has changed his game completely. and soma is now a fucking god. i never trust all time standings because they never reflect the NOW. these 3-0's were easily predicted and i don't see any protoss beating zero nor soma in the near future. best thinks getting goon range before storm is the way to play. no one else thinks that. and until he actually delivers results with this style, he is forever sus
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On October 29 2020 08:37 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 08:17 Light- wrote:On October 29 2020 06:57 Essbee wrote:
The overall point, though, was that terran and zerg players are willing to push the meta for their respective race while the protoss meta stays stagnant. Protoss players need to be better and smarter.
Finally, someone said it. Protoss pros are just worse than their respective peers. They're slower and don't play as smart. In my humble opinion, it's due to a selection bias - since T/Z are harder to play than P, worse players stick with P and can relatively keep up since P makes more out of their skills, while better players are able to be successful with T/Z, and since they're just better, they naturally outstrip everyone else in results. Just look at what Flash did with Protoss, how he beat Snow and Rush so cleanly despite not being a P main. IMHO Protoss players need to experiment with more units and spells. What Larva did with Queens, a unit that had been for the longest time belittled as "theorycraft and unviable," is a great example of how to advance one's race, and a reminder that we haven't figured it all out. The bolded is exactly what I think too, thank you. Protoss players generally pick up bad habits because the race is easier to play at first. But once you reach progamer level, you need to be faster, better and smarter. Jangbi is the example I'll always come back to for being a proper high level protoss player. He had near 400 apm and was able to use every single protoss unit (I guess except scouts lol) at an extremely high level. He was unpredictable (one of the overlooked strength of protoss) and could beat anyone on any map at his peak. Too bad he had stage fright for such a long time. Bisu is close (also high apm) but his vT is still an enigma that I don't understand to this day. If a protoss player can dominate terrans (Jangbi), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud". If a protoss player can dominate zergs (Bisu), then the example for the other protoss players is right in front of their eyes. The balance talks become pointless. Just "git gud".
What the hell is this outrageous nonsense?
Protoss players are bad, you say?
How comes that all of the Starleagues in 2019 had at least one Protoss finalist? Yes, Rain was the one who won one and he's retired now but tell me, where were your superior Zerg players?
Effort, pre-retirement Soulkey, Larva, Zero, Soma, Jaedong were playing but the best they obtained was a double ro4 last year.
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On October 29 2020 08:27 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2020 08:17 Light- wrote:On October 29 2020 06:57 Essbee wrote:
The overall point, though, was that terran and zerg players are willing to push the meta for their respective race while the protoss meta stays stagnant. Protoss players need to be better and smarter.
Finally, someone said it. Protoss pros are just worse than their respective peers. They're slower and don't play as smart. In my humble opinion, it's due to a selection bias - since T/Z are harder to play than P, worse players stick with P and can relatively keep up since P makes more out of their skills, while better players are able to be successful with T/Z, and since they're just better, they naturally outstrip everyone else in results. Just look at what Flash did with Protoss, how he beat Snow and Rush so cleanly despite not being a P main. IMHO Protoss players need to experiment with more units and spells. What Larva did with Queens, a unit that had been for the longest time belittled as "theorycraft and unviable," is a great example of how to advance one's race, and a reminder that we haven't figured it all out. This is so accurate because when larva used to offrace a lot in 1.16 days he would always go 2 forge style and beat lot of top tier zergs like soma. He always used to wonder why toss pros weren't really utilizing it. Now, literally every pros go 2 forge. I remember another guy recommending that toss use DA for mutas and what do you know DA was finally utilized. Pros always used to say no.. we tried but its trash! or we'll need 500 apm! but look at flash easily destroying rush with hts..
From what I know, Flash was the first one to suggest to make 2 forges to his protoss teammates during his KT days but they refused to use it LOL
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EPT
