[ASL9] Ro8 Day 4 - Page 22

On April 08 2020 06:07 GTR wrote:
light vs soma is going to be a fucking amazing series. it's going to be up there with the likes of flash vs jaedong from asl2 and flash vs effort from asl 6 when all is said and done.

On April 07 2020 23:31 BisuDagger wrote:
Let's take the focus off cannons:
Game 1: Bisu lost way too many zealots in the early game. In every PvZ, after 2 early Zealots are lost the counter in my head starts going off. You can't trade 3 or more zealots pre-hyrda bust to only lings. It is a guaranteed bargain for the zerg every time. Those loses cost him the game, not the cannons.

Game 2: Soma out smarted Bisu. One of the most genius things he did was spread his scourge to the top left corner of match point. Remember when that first corsair was running from scourge, took a left turn and immediately got hit by a scourge forcing the corsair back down again? The scourge placement blocked Bisu from flying to the top left before heading back to his main. Later Bisu had what SC2 games call an F2 moment. Bisu had 4 zealots in a control group. He split two to scout the top left base, but then control group ordered his zealots to the other side of the map. Bisu failed to see it twice with major credit to Soma.

Game 3-4: We know how that went

Game 5: Bisu saved his zealots and you immediately see the major difference in defense. Bisu's huge mistake was building a robo and a templar archives. If Bisu skips robo, it leaves him gas for a faster templar archives into a faster DT. It also leaves him minerals for a crucial extra cannon. Then he invested in a shuttle instead of an extra cannon again. The double high tech is what ultimately killed him in that game. The DT that did major damage to Soma traveled by ground and proved that Bisu didn't need the shuttle to make the hold.

Argue about cannons all you want, but there were many other factors that left Bisu too weak to win.

On April 08 2020 11:28 RKC wrote:


Would you say that such win-rate is because Bisu gets into the late-game by cutting corners and making aggressive harassment plays that slow down the Zerg? Meaning to say, Bisu's late-game superiority is down to a risky strat as well (hence, his win-rate of 90% is rather deceiving and should be reduced by the fact that he only, say, has a 50-60% chance to get into that favourable position)?

On April 08 2020 12:31 Moopower wrote:


I agree Bisu made mistakes that cost him the game ultimately. However I will say the margin of error is certainly pretty thin when it comes to PvZ. Bisu should have saw that hydra in game while the zealot was at his third base in game 1 hydra bust but Bisu didn't seem to react to the hydra and probably was focused on multitasking and didn't see the hydra until later when the other zealots got picked off in the middle of the map. If Bisu pulled probes sooner and had them actually in front of the cannons ready to stop hydras from sniping the cannons so quick, he would've held. So those 2 crucial mistakes cost him the game. I'd still argue that PvZ is still favored to Zerg. That's why historically we always see protoss losing to zerg all ins.

There's always too much to anticipate and in the opposite match ups like TvP, Protoss is the aggressor in what Terran has to react while Protoss has the bag of builds. However Terran's defense is so much more robust and effective that even if Terran is caught off guard, Protoss builds usually never end the game outright but the game can continue with some healthy margins.

To keep Zerg in check in the meta, I'd argue it would be nice if Zerg's hydralisk speed and atk range upgrades cost a bit more or took slightly longer to research. It doesn't affect TvZ or ZvZ at all, so doing so would help out protoss in the no scouting period between getting probes denied by speedlings and 1st corsair. I mean think about if Zerg had perfect control of his speedlings and zoned out any probes trying to scout. How is Protoss expected to scout the Zerg without relying on Zerg to make a mistake? The times where we do see Protoss scouting zerg in time it is usually due to the Zerg player not on top of zoning the map and denying scouting. With the movement speed of the lings vs probes/zealots. This is achievable to absolute denial of any scouting, provided they play well/perfectly. If they just changed hydra upgrades slightly that will give Protoss a little extra breathing room to scout in time.

The risk is not balanced with rewards. Usually when you do an all in type of strategy you should lose or be in huge disadvantage if it doesn't work. But here we see Zerg can continue a perfectly normal game even after Protoss defends this without losing too many probes. When you scout a cheese rush strat you understand that when you don't scout it you can lose outright or win if you scout it. That's high risk high reward type situation. Here in the Zerg's perspective, it's relatively low risk (continue regular game) if it doesn't work vs winning outright.

On April 08 2020 11:03 EsportsJohn wrote:


You know something's wrong when BisuDagger admits that Bisu made mistakes but 17 other fanboiis somehow can't get over it.

On April 08 2020 13:07 EsportsJohn wrote:


I think you're vastly underestimating how close the last game was. Soma had 6 drones left. He had 0 gas income. If his last push hadn't broken through the cannons, it would have been a Zerg loss. Bisu fucked up several minor things that all added up to him not being able to hold the push (the primary one being his zealots being out of position and still on hold when Soma attacked in the first time because he was microing his zealot at the 3rd base), but there was never a world where Soma transitions to a solid macro game after Bisu holds.

On April 08 2020 13:07 EsportsJohn wrote:


I think you're vastly underestimating how close the last game was. Soma had 6 drones left. He had 0 gas income. If his last push hadn't broken through the cannons, it would have been a Zerg loss. Bisu fucked up several minor things that all added up to him not being able to hold the push (the primary one being his zealots being out of position and still on hold when Soma attacked in the first time because he was microing his zealot at the 3rd base), but there was never a world where Soma transitions to a solid macro game after Bisu holds.

On April 08 2020 13:31 darktreb wrote:


Ironically, BisuDagger is a very reasonable Bisu fan! There are a lot of lurking Bisu fans that come out of the woodwork in times like this.

I was rooting for Bisu because I wanted to see Bisu vs. Light (Soma vs. Light happened recently in KSL), and so there would be two different matchups in ro4.

For the tournament though, this is probably better because Bisu in his current form probably had no shot against Flash in bo7, whereas Soma does.

Soma understood Bisu’s weaknesses and did what he had to do to win. Much respect.

On April 08 2020 11:28 RKC wrote:


Would you say that such win-rate is because Bisu gets into the late-game by cutting corners and making aggressive harassment plays that slow down the Zerg? Meaning to say, Bisu's late-game superiority is down to a risky strat as well (hence, his win-rate of 90% is rather deceiving and should be reduced by the fact that he only, say, has a 50-60% chance to get into that favourable position)?