On April 07 2020 20:59 Starecat wrote: I'm okay with PvZ having the possibility to go like that last game, I'm more okay with players picking the way they play than having their hand forced.
Not even pointing at SC2 many modern multiplayer games patch the game to please balance QQ instead of giving it time to see how it evolves and solve itself over the time.
Completely agreed. But after so many years, there is some certainty that hydra busts before storm and its relatively low risk for zerg will not go away by some genius feat, from any protoss.
On April 07 2020 20:59 Starecat wrote: I'm okay with PvZ having the possibility to go like that last game, I'm more okay with players picking the way they play than having their hand forced.
Not even pointing at SC2 many modern multiplayer games patch the game to please balance QQ instead of giving it time to see how it evolves and solve itself over the time.
Completely agreed. But after so many years, there is some certainty that hydra busts before storm and its relatively low risk for zerg will not go away by some genius feat, from any protoss.
I just think the risk reward for getting one too many cannons doesnt pay off because they're static and relatively weak.
Instead, let's just give the ability for zealots to hop inside a cannon which makes them man the cannons for faster attack speed. Heck, let's give cannons an upgrade which makes them shoot farther and then also give the ability for probes to repair them too :p problem solved ezpz
But in all seriousness, it sort of sucks that in this particular situation, the imperative is on the toss to keep scouting and then react accordingly whereas for terrans you dont need to keep scouting for as long before you're "safe". It just feels like the window for error while the hydras can punish you stays a bit longer for the toss
Let's take the focus off cannons: Game 1: Bisu lost way too many zealots in the early game. In every PvZ, after 2 early Zealots are lost the counter in my head starts going off. You can't trade 3 or more zealots pre-hyrda bust to only lings. It is a guaranteed bargain for the zerg every time. Those loses cost him the game, not the cannons.
Game 2: Soma out smarted Bisu. One of the most genius things he did was spread his scourge to the top left corner of match point. Remember when that first corsair was running from scourge, took a left turn and immediately got hit by a scourge forcing the corsair back down again? The scourge placement blocked Bisu from flying to the top left before heading back to his main. Later Bisu had what SC2 games call an F2 moment. Bisu had 4 zealots in a control group. He split two to scout the top left base, but then control group ordered his zealots to the other side of the map. Bisu failed to see it twice with major credit to Soma.
Game 3-4: We know how that went
Game 5: Bisu saved his zealots and you immediately see the major difference in defense. Bisu's huge mistake was building a robo and a templar archives. If Bisu skips robo, it leaves him gas for a faster templar archives into a faster DT. It also leaves him minerals for a crucial extra cannon. Then he invested in a shuttle instead of an extra cannon again. The double high tech is what ultimately killed him in that game. The DT that did major damage to Soma traveled by ground and proved that Bisu didn't need the shuttle to make the hold.
Argue about cannons all you want, but there were many other factors that left Bisu too weak to win.
On April 07 2020 23:00 mishimaBeef wrote: maybe if protoss found a way to play against lings without giving up the gateway + forge to hydras then the hydras will be more easily played against
Bisu pioneered this with his +1 speed lot build. You can watch the build in motion versus Kwanro
1. Forge Expand with standard cannon setup 2. Starts +1 on forge, builds citadel with the expectation to tech to templars 3. Kwanro timing preempts his ability to finish +1 on the forge 4. Bisu cancels +1 and immediately heads into templar tech for either DTs or Storm depending on the location of the nearest overlord
Strengths of this build: * Puts protoss on the map the quickest after defending bust * Allows for counter harass * Sets up for best late game tech
Weakness: * Sacrifices corsair count * Can die to deceptive muta tech
I think the reason we don't see this build executed the same way today: 1. Zerg current meta is great at disguising build orders more then ever 2. Zergs are using the maps to their advantage given the current meta
Man, watching the VOD and seeing ChosimXerg up 2-0 with an hour left i thought for sure bisu would lose one of the next two games. Two quick games and that last one was very exciting. I'm almost glad Bisu went out with that lastgame/series rather than get smashed down by Flash.
Would maelstrom ever work in that situation or against hydra bust in general? I'm probably wrong but imagine maelstrom on hydras when they dive on cannons. Seems good. It's 100 less minerals and 100 less gas to research than storm and about 10 seconds faster. DTs require more minerals and less gas than HT.
More thoughts... DA have 3 more sight compared to HT (7 vs 10), have faster movement speed. The downside is that maelstrom requires 100 energy vs 75 (DA and HT both start with 50) and two DTs are +200 minerals and +50 gas over one HT. But including spell upgrade cost, one DA with maelstrom is +100 minerals and -50 gas than one HT with storm. Plus DTs can be used for other purposes.
Maybe DA could be safer than HT for holding a push, and more dangerous for Z because their hydra army could be wiped (instead of storms which just keep them back).
was hoping to see anything other than these kinds of games. lots of uncharacteristic mistakes from bisu but also a lot of greedy decisions. earlier cannons need to be started earlier especially when the zerg is over making lings to stop scout. it doesn't matter how fast you can tech against 6 hatch if you die to 3 hatch every game..
PvZ right now is in such a tough state for Protoss these days since Zerg has so many viable builds now that the Protoss basically needs to react near 100% perfect or else they just die outright.
If we're talking about changes in P strategy, I wouldn't mind seeing progamers explore skipping corsair and see what can be done with that
EPT
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