EPT
[ASL9] Ro8 Day 4
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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SouL)Z(Silver
Russian Federation347 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
we can get ZvZ final or TvT final. Soma showing good ZvP nad he can beat Light, ZerO also have some chances to beat Flash. anw we get ZvZ final))) And Light can beat Soma or Bisu. difficult choose. and we get TvT final (like Flash vs Sea). Bisu gogo | ||
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Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 15:27 Disregard wrote: Does Soma even have a chance against Light let alone Flash? Then I feel like I'm jinxing and we end up with a ZvZ finals. Haha! Can you imagine such a thing? All imagine a Flash vs Bisu or Flash vs Light , or maybe even Zero vs Bisu haha And the finals would be Zero vs Soma  | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
When 9734 came out , he was 1-7 against it. But when Stork found out a way, Bisu immediately incorporote it and defeated Zero 6-3 in a match (i think it was race survival). I think Bisu will win 3-0 , or maybe 3-1. | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
Soma is 50/50 here. I think he's likely to win 3-2, but Bisu is my boy, so I'm rooting for him regardless. Soma's style is different from what Bisu typically excels against as well, although I am not knowledgable enough about the game to precisely articulate why I feel that way. I miss when these started at 2am. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
hopefully he wins so we can get all 3 races in the semis. | ||
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Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
If Bisu win, we have more chances to see more wonderful Final - Flash vs Bisu or ZerO vs Bisu (may be 3-0 in 1st) Today I for Bisu. Soma sry. You already have the best results. Give us final Flash vs Bisu sry for my bad english in some places. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 07 2020 18:21 Sonic_md wrote: If Soma will win, we can get Final Flash vs Light/Soma (choose TvT or TvZ (3-0) or ZvZ final or ZvT (ZerO vs Light) If Bisu win, we have more chances to see more wonderful Final - Flash vs Bisu or ZerO vs Bisu (may be 3-0 in 1st) Today I for Bisu. Soma sry. You already have the best results. Give us final Flash vs Bisu sry for my bad english in some places. bisu can't beat flash, soma has better chance | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On April 07 2020 18:41 BLinD-RawR wrote: bisu can't beat flash, soma has better chance Agreed, I think based on his lackluster games vs Zero, beating Soma will be a stretch in itself... Hoping for Bisu to deliver though! | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On April 07 2020 18:41 BLinD-RawR wrote: bisu can't beat flash, soma has better chance But what if Bisu builds a gateway and runs Zealots at Flash one by one? | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On April 07 2020 18:54 Lachrymose wrote: But what if Bisu builds a gateway and runs Zealots at Flash one by one? Memories man.. lol | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 07 2020 18:59 Lachrymose wrote: That's not exactly how I remember Winner's League and Proleague grand finals. oh sick burn from 8 years ago. I'm soo hurt. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:01 BLinD-RawR wrote: oh sick burn from 8 years ago. I'm soo hurt. You'll be okay. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
BEEEEEESUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!! LET'S GO! | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:05 Akio wrote: Well at least, unlike Stork, Bisu said he has prepped hard for this match. He prepped hard by resting. That's very important crucially underrated! | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
and its the ch-ch-ch-ch-chosim one! | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
Tastosis...omg....start again with saying non sense...... | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
Soma yes. But everyone ??!?!? | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
Cannon defense incoming ! | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:17 prosatan wrote: Greedy builds by both of them ! Eh? Isn't Bisu's build is save against anything but 9 Pool (or earlier). | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:19 prosatan wrote: Tastosis keep saying this thing... is it true that EVERYONE is much ,much better than two years ago? Soma yes. But everyone ??!?!? Is that what they are saying in the English stream? It's obviously isn't true as can be seen by the skills they show every match this ASL. Strategically the players are more advanced, but it's painful to see that they are obviously worse in every other aspect. | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
I think he will lose this one pretty easy. Hope I'm wrong. | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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goody153
44125 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
(I haven't watched a lot of pro SCBW) | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:22 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Is that what they are saying in the English stream? It's obviously isn't true as can be seen by the skills they show every match this ASL. Strategically the players are more advanced, but it's painful to see that they are obviously worse in every other aspect. Yeap! Keep saying this nonsense....and they use superlative with such a nonchalance...much much better... | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:23 Mozdk wrote: What happens if Z goes for hydra bust, Protoss makes enough cannons, and Z doesn't actually attack? Isn't the protoss behind either way? (I haven't watched a lot of pro SCBW) you need a really high drone count in zvp, it's not like in zvt where you can get away with underdroning, so you're way behind if you can't bust. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:23 Mozdk wrote: What happens if Z goes for hydra bust, Protoss makes enough cannons, and Z doesn't actually attack? Isn't the protoss behind either way? (I haven't watched a lot of pro SCBW) Yes, protoss is behind if he does that! Thats why toss needs a corsair to fly over zergs base and see if they are making hydras , or pumping drones, or tech to lair | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:23 Mozdk wrote: What happens if Z goes for hydra bust, Protoss makes enough cannons, and Z doesn't actually attack? Isn't the protoss behind either way? (I haven't watched a lot of pro SCBW) But if it fails zerg has no economy no tech no army and P can push and punish. And also, they stay alive, which is important condition for winning. Edit: oh, doesn't attack, I read: "fails attack" nvm | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:22 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Is that what they are saying in the English stream? It's obviously isn't true as can be seen by the skills they show every match this ASL. Strategically the players are more advanced, but it's painful to see that they are obviously worse in every other aspect. It's the narrative they've been pushing, I don't wanna say "always", but for a while at least. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:24 Garrl wrote: you need a really high drone count in zvp, it's not like in zvt where you can get away with underdroning, so you're way behind if you can't bust. If toss puts a million cannons and zergs take 4th(as in 9734) and places a few sunkens while droning, then zerg is ahead ! | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:23 Mozdk wrote: What happens if Z goes for hydra bust, Protoss makes enough cannons, and Z doesn't actually attack? Isn't the protoss behind either way? (I haven't watched a lot of pro SCBW) usually zergs just keep protoss contained while fending off corsairs and going into another expansion. protoss goes for a one-big-army push with zealots goons and HTs after playing defensively, and zergs will use this opportunity to use mutalisks to snipe HTs. generally that's how the flow goes | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:24 PVJ wrote: But if it fails zerg has no economy no tech no army and P can push and punish. And also, they stay alive, which is important condition for winning. yeah even if you saw soma take that 4th, he cut a lot of drones and while he would have bases he would have to decide between making workers/units while bisu whos well defended would just counterattack before zerg gets enough. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:25 Akio wrote: It's the narrative they've been pushing, I don't wanna say "always", but for a while at least. the knowledge of the game is MUCH, MUCH better nowadays than it was 10 years ago. The only thing worse is mechanics, because they don't play 12 hours a day anymore. Still very impressive to see professionals play mid and late game. The micro/macro/decision making is still astonishing to witness. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:23 Mozdk wrote: What happens if Z goes for hydra bust, Protoss makes enough cannons, and Z doesn't actually attack? Isn't the protoss behind either way? (I haven't watched a lot of pro SCBW) Yeah, protoss is behind either way unless he manages to precisely predict the exact amount of cannons to block the exact amount of hydras zerg decided to build. I personally think that the danger and the Zergs' ability to do these kind of burst was the main reason why ZvP was(is) so favorable for zergs throughout the broodwar history, since, protosses could (can) only lose or go even in the first 10 minutes with the zergs, they do not have a winning move outside of zergs fucking something major up | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:22 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Is that what they are saying in the English stream? It's obviously isn't true as can be seen by the skills they show every match this ASL. Strategically the players are more advanced, but it's painful to see that they are obviously worse in every other aspect. Yeah... Although I think there is some genuine confusion here because Tastosis think that the general advanced strategies mean that each individual player is on a much higher level. Absolutely speaking that may be true but it doesn't make much sense to see it this way because strategy always evolves. Relatively speaking, they are not on a higher level. I mean, compare it to the time between 2000 and 2010. Strategies were obviously evolving at a high pace and were much more elaborate in 2007. However, on top of that, mechanics, sharpness etc. of the individual players also improved a lot. I have no doubt that the mechanics of a B-class pro player in the 2009/2010 era would have dominated the scene of 2000... | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:27 M3t4PhYzX wrote: the knowledge of the game is MUCH, MUCH better nowadays than it was 10 years ago. The only thing worse is mechanics, because they don't play 12 hours a day anymore. Still very impressive to see late professionals play game. The micro/macro/decision making is still astonishing to witness. Agree 100% But Flash and Zero said that they in the past could beat them now if they practiced a bit the new meta. And Jaedong was 100% better in the past | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
Not like action going 12 hatch | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:28 M2 wrote: Yeah, protoss is behind either way unless he manages to precisely predict the exact amount of cannons to block the exact amount of hydras zerg decided to build. I personally think that the danger and the Zergs' ability to do these kind of burst was the main reason why ZvP was(is) so favorable for zergs throughout the broodwar history, since, protosses could (can) only lose or go even in the first 10 minutes with the zergs, they do not have a winning move outside of zergs fucking something major up Hydra busts were not a thing in the old days though. The reason for historical imbalance in PvZ is multifold. | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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goody153
44125 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
i love watching soma's zerg play, its so unconventional and liberated | ||
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
But he doesn't suspect Somas top left base... | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:36 GorillaPimp wrote: Bisu is about to get 3-0'd I'm afraid you may be right GorillaPimp  | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:27 M3t4PhYzX wrote: the knowledge of the game is MUCH, MUCH better nowadays than it was 10 years ago. The only thing worse is mechanics, because they don't play 12 hours a day anymore. Still very impressive to see professionals play mid and late game. The micro/macro/decision making is still astonishing to witness. Players streaming vs secretly designing strats in teamhouses I wonder which environment evens out the knowledge? Nothing to be happy about, really. | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:31 True_Spike wrote: Hydra busts were not a thing in the old days though. The reason for historical imbalance in PvZ is multifold. I feel like imbalance of this match up mainly comes from the fact that zerg can do whatever the fuck he wants, switch to whatever he wants whenever and protoss have to fight for their lives in early and early-mid game. If you dont scout perfectly, you're basically dead. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
Can't you see he has a milion scourges and even lurkers ? It is clear he has a 3rd gas.... | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
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goody153
44125 Posts
sounds kinda dumb tbh when pros do this just one on each base is totally worth for being this ahead edit: feels like the entire harassment( wouldve been minimized the dt -corsair harassment instead of bisu just running in) | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:41 GorillaPimp wrote: Thank God. PLEASE WIN BISU WTF +1 ! | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:43 GorillaPimp wrote: I don't see how Bisu wins this, or how he wins 3 in a row. I mean, I don't see how bisu loses this game lol he's in such a good position rn | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
Did u know he has them on 0 on the hotkey? | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
bisu gets steamrolled ..... | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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srj
Canada134 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
this is really hard to watch. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
next time scout all map BISU !!!!!! | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Cush
United States646 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:48 Miragee wrote: Honestly, Bisu did quite well despite being in a massive disadvantage. Also lol at Artosis saying Chosim surpassed Bisu in supply for the first time this game in the end. Chosim had higher supply earlier and was basically even for a long time. Bisu only managed to pull ahead a bit when he started killing overlords... Artosis still lost in that 1.5 hr TvT he was playing a few hours ago. | ||
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Athinira
Denmark33 Posts
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goody153
44125 Posts
they do both have similar have insane dps, range, easily massed, cheap and fast movement ? | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:40 Disregard wrote: Think Soma will actually pull this off with Flash? I want some underdog action here but he probably get curb-stomped. Think u havent watched much of Soma vs Flash.... Think he stands the highest chance against Flash out of the remaining players.... | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:47 Dante08 wrote: No idea why Bisu didn't go hard for the 4th, he could have killed it. Yeah that would have been better to go cross map with his second army. I can understand his thought process though and he didn't know for how long the 4th was up. Hard to read and make the correct decision at that moment. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:49 Motivate wrote: i think tastosis put a little too much emphasis on the poor scourge flock/a few overlord kills despite soma having a huge economic advantage. the scourge flank fail was what helped bisu even get that far.. it was a pivotal moment | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6590 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:50 goody153 wrote: random unrelated question while watching hydras run over protoss: why doesnt marine-medic not work against protoss ? they do both have similar have insane dps, range, easily massed, cheap and fast movement ? reaver or storm will destroy it rather easily. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:50 goody153 wrote: random unrelated question while watching hydras run over protoss: why doesnt marine-medic not work against protoss ? they do both have similar have insane dps, range, easily massed, cheap and fast movement ? It works very well against gateway units. Reavers and storm is what destroys M&M. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:50 kerpal wrote: that was a crazy build by soma, I don't think i've seen 2 hatch lair into double expand before. It's something out of the Zero/Soulkey book. | ||
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goody153
44125 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:52 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: reaver or storm will destroy it rather easily. Arent hydras kinda squishy as well to reaver/storm ? Or MM just harder to control against the protoss AOE tools ? | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:50 goody153 wrote: random unrelated question while watching hydras run over protoss: why doesnt marine-medic not work against protoss ? they do both have similar have insane dps, range, easily massed, cheap and fast movement ? i know this has been answered but important to note hydras have just enough bulk to be able to effectively storm dodge compared to M&M | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:52 Miragee wrote: It works very well against gateway units. Reavers and storm is what destroys M&M. Yeap, the are good agains zealots and goons. But against storm or reavers , they are bad Even against dt! Dt kills marine in one shot. If you are not careful ,you wouldn't even notice | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:53 goody153 wrote: Arent hydras kinda squishy as well to reaver/storm ? Or MM just harder to control against the protoss AOE tools ? Trying to spread your marines without getting obliterated by storms or reavers is insanely hard during a fight. | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:50 goody153 wrote: random unrelated question while watching hydras run over protoss: why doesnt marine-medic not work against protoss ? they do both have similar have insane dps, range, easily massed, cheap and fast movement ? That is a weird comparison; marine has 40 hp, hydra has 80. Marines are smaller and clump up more. Storm and reavers obliterate M&M because of this, healing has no effect. M&M in small numbers is not really that powerful against goon/zeal on its own either (especially once you have speedlots). Once you do amass a lot of M&M there's plenty of AoE in the game and tons of buffer for it. Timing pushes with M&M can work in some instances, but it depends on the protoss not scouting it in advance usually. | ||
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goody153
44125 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:52 Miragee wrote: It works very well against gateway units. Reavers and storm is what destroys M&M. Does it have to do with marine clumping ? If tanks are added to the equation is it still too difficult ? | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:53 goody153 wrote: Arent hydras kinda squishy as well to reaver/storm ? Or MM just harder to control against the protoss AOE tools ? hydras are larger and tankier (80hp vs 40hp) in theory, mm is really good if you have time stop micro skills but almost impossible to pull off in a real game | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6590 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:53 goody153 wrote: Arent hydras kinda squishy as well to reaver/storm ? Or MM just harder to control against the protoss AOE tools ? they are but hydra have more hp and better mobility? u can find ur marines trying to dodge storm with stim on buy medic is healing blocking and it makes it hard to dodge. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
Forces Bisu to make 2 cannons. And works even better vs gate first | ||
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goody153
44125 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:55 Garrl wrote: hydras are larger and tankier (80hp vs 40hp) in theory, mm is really good if you have time stop micro skills but almost impossible to pull off in a real game I have seen a few games on the hall of fame but it does look like it takes so much effort. I guess having the less taxing mech option makes it weird to play bio against toss | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:58 goody153 wrote: I have seen a few games on the hall of fame but it does look like it takes so much effort. I guess having the less taxing mech option makes it weird to play bio against toss Bisu vs Soma turning into arguing if M&M works against protoss  | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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goody153
44125 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:55 kerpal wrote: didn't reach say that if terran were manly enough they would make m&m work vs protoss? I wish there was some really stubborn ballsy terran pro who just tries to make bio work against protoss. That would be fun to watch | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
1-2 now! | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
GOOD WORK BISU!!! | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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goody153
44125 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:59 prosatan wrote: Bisu vs Soma turning into arguing if M&M works against protoss I don't see why not | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:02 whaski wrote: Eat that you disgusting cheeser! uhh ok, this is the saddest line of reasoning | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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goody153
44125 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
Nice work by bisu | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Very well played blocking the lings from running through and killing 2 lurkers. Though I guess there was no chance the lurkers could had ran through after tha cannosn finished anyways. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
He went for a hydra bust in the first game and a sneaky expansion in the second game He tried a fishy strategy now and lost when it was scouted. | ||
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IncarnatioN_
Russian Federation38 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6590 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:00 goody153 wrote: I wish there was some really stubborn ballsy terran pro who just tries to make bio work against protoss. That would be fun to watch i have seen multiple variations of mnm.some of them include tank support.but re mostly for killer timing.i dont recall a pure lategame macro only mnm based.it always transition to tanks vulture. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:03 BLinD-RawR wrote: uhh ok, this is the saddest line of reasoning 2 hatch lurker is disgusting cheese in zvp. Even if Bisu loves his 9-9 gate 2 hatch lurker is so dirty, come on! | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:03 prosatan wrote: No offense to Soma but he will be outplayed in a standard match! He went for a hydra bust in the first game and a sneaky expansion in the second game He tried a fishy strategy now and lost when it was scouted. How did u derive that? Non of the games have gone close to a standard game yet.... game 2 is perhaps the closest.... | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 07 2020 19:56 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: they are but hydra have more hp and better mobility? u can find ur marines trying to dodge storm with stim on buy medic is healing blocking and it makes it hard to dodge. Yeah think it's mostly because of HP. Stimmed marines have 30 HP or so. They basically die instantly when a storm hits them. Hydras can take more ticks. Medics blocking doesn't help of course. | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:03 BLinD-RawR wrote: uhh ok, this is the saddest line of reasoning Hydra bust -> hidden expo -> Lurker bust There's nothing wrong with having disdain for somebody playing the odds fishing for free wins over and over rather than trying to outplay somebody. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6590 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:03 prosatan wrote: No offense to Soma but he will be outplayed in a standard match! He went for a hydra bust in the first game and a sneaky expansion in the second game He tried a fishy strategy now and lost when it was scouted. Soma lategame is one of the best in the scene.this is the reason him playing this builds are so dangerous.I mean i have seen him winning Bisu in like 10 pure macro games. | ||
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Amanebak
Czech Republic528 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:06 Disregard wrote: Wonder whos idea was it to bring Hitchhiker back, anyone actually enjoy this map? Yes, there is a whole thread about how the map is great. there | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Looks like Bisu read Soma correctly this time. 7 cannons on the nat... Very well played blocking the lings from running through and killing 2 lurkers. Though I guess there was no chance the lurkers could had ran through after tha cannosn finished anyways. The lurkers look to have just died b4 they even burrow. That was very quick focus firing there..... | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:06 Lachrymose wrote: Hydra bust -> hidden expo -> Lurker bust There's nothing wrong with having disdain for somebody playing the odds fishing for free wins over and over rather than trying to outplay somebody. That sounds like to me that Soma outplayed Bisu by playing mindgames and denying scouting over him. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:06 weiliem wrote: How did u derive that? Non of the games have gone close to a standard game yet.... game 2 is perhaps the closest.... Yes, they weren't standard because Soma tried to cheese a little bit! On game 2 he had that sneaky expansion! He knew that if Bisu scouted there he was going to lose. I remember an interview in the past with terran player Go.Go. He said about Bisu that he doesn't go for chesse against "weaker" players because he knows he is better than them. Go.go practiced accordingly and knew he won't face any dts or proxy gates | ||
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
'Yeaahh...?' xD | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
Come on Bisu , you revolutionist ! | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:06 Lachrymose wrote: Hydra bust -> hidden expo -> Lurker bust There's nothing wrong with having disdain for somebody playing the odds fishing for free wins over and over rather than trying to outplay somebody. While i dont like watching hydra busts (it's damn boring when u watch in almost every zvp series), but starcraft is a Real Time Strategy game, not a Real Time Macro game..... | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
Not enjoyable for Protoss, maybe if you go reavers every game. Most of the enjoyable games from what I remember on that map were Terran versus X. And hence why this map is not popular in tournaments since everyone vetos it. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:06 Lachrymose wrote: Hydra bust -> hidden expo -> Lurker bust There's nothing wrong with having disdain for somebody playing the odds fishing for free wins over and over rather than trying to outplay somebody. bamboozling is outplaying, killing the scouting probe is outplaying because he was denied scouting info, soma knowing that you can end the match when you're ahead is outplaying. long macro games aren't the only way to say if someone is better or not, its the most archaic thinking on our forums. bisu got played, and he would have been out if he did not correctly scout. | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:08 Dangermousecatdog wrote: That sounds like to me that Soma outplayed Bisu by playing mindgames and denying scouting over him. Then every random ladder Zerg outplays the greatest Protoss players of all time on the daily because it's literally impossible to scout the map, especially the whole map, in certain phases of the early game. Not a very meaningful definition of outplay. | ||
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
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Cush
United States646 Posts
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:11 BLinD-RawR wrote: bamboozling is outplaying, killing the scouting probe is outplaying because he was denied scouting info, soma knowing that you can end the match when you're ahead is outplaying. long macro games aren't the only way to say if someone is better or not, its the most archaic thinking on our forums. bisu got played, and he would have been out if he did not correctly scout. Killing a scouting probe with speedlings is not outplaying. Throwing the dice in the dark is not outplaying. | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
Who would have ever guessed | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:13 Lachrymose wrote: Killing a scouting probe with speedlings is not outplaying. Throwing the dice in the dark is not outplaying. Well, ok then, by your own words, Soma is outplaying Bisu because Bisu cannon rushed. | ||
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jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
yeah, that probe micro was insane... | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
 gg | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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att
128 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
Okay all you race haters, P earned it there Bisu Fighting! | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
ps i know everyone is impressed by bisu but that was basically a build order loss there | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:04 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: i have seen multiple variations of mnm.some of them include tank support.but re mostly for killer timing.i dont recall a pure lategame macro only mnm based.it always transition to tanks vulture. There is one. ForGG vs Kal if I remember correctly. Incredible thing. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:06 Disregard wrote: Wonder whos idea was it to bring Hitchhiker back, anyone actually enjoy this map? It's been one of my favourites. Delivers with the new metas and strats too I think | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:14 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Well, ok then, by your own words, Soma is outplaying Bisu because Bisu cannon rushed. No, by my own words winning with a cannon rush is not a meaningful measure of outplaying somebody. I didn't claim Bisu was outplaying Soma by dying to a hidden expo. | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:09 prosatan wrote: Yes, they weren't standard because Soma tried to cheese a little bit! On game 2 he had that sneaky expansion! He knew that if Bisu scouted there he was going to lose. I remember an interview in the past with terran player Go.Go. He said about Bisu that he doesn't go for chesse against "weaker" players because he knows he is better than them. Go.go practiced accordingly and knew he won't face any dts or proxy gates LOL so what do u have to say about game 4? guess for his fans, when bisu does proxy its good strategy, but when his opponent does it its cheater cheese | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:16 Lachrymose wrote: No, by my own words winning with a cannon rush is not a meaningful measure of outplaying somebody. I didn't claim Bisu was outplaying Soma by dying to a hidden expo. Winning = outplaying. That's the only definable measure of skill. To win. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
And in classic form he’ll now lose to a 3 hatch hydra or something lame. | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:16 nojok wrote: Nothing against bisu but I want his fanboy's tears. Nevermind the fanboys, we need fresh blood. Flash has enough championships. | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:16 NoS-Craig wrote: God damn that felt tense. Bisu defense was awesome with his probes. The zerglings couldnt even move.... That was amazing defence.... | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:14 PVJ wrote: 80 000+ viewers watching Bisu cannon rushing Who would have ever guessed BROODWAR IS THE MOST AMAZING THING EVER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:17 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Hitchhiker looks like a map where long interesting games could be made, but it seems in practice cheese occurs instead. Drawn out games on Hitchhiker are comical. It's always some early aggressive cheese or strat. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
I finally have time to watch a little SC and i tune it to two Bisu wins ? Please soma.. crush him or i'll be tilted for the rest of the day Wait that was Hitchhicker ? Wasn't this map horribly imbalanced and very old like 2006 or something? | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:18 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Winning = outplaying. That's the only definable measure of skill. To win. Not at all. Outplaying is playing better. Demonstrating greater mastery. Winning is winning. Often they overlap, sometimes they don't. | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:17 weiliem wrote: LOL so what do u have to say about game 4? guess for his fans, when bisu does proxy its good strategy, but when his opponent does it its cheater cheese No its not for my liking when every game is like this | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
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Amanebak
Czech Republic528 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:16 Lachrymose wrote: No, by my own words winning with a cannon rush is not a meaningful measure of outplaying somebody. I didn't claim Bisu was outplaying Soma by dying to a hidden expo. it was 2 hatch muta into double expand, its bisu's mistake for not finding the expansion, not that he would have because he'd have to respect the 2hatch muta meaning that he'd need a fleet of sairs before he could comfortably move out, in the meantime soma decided to take that base instead. Information control is outplaying plain and simple, especially when it works out. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:21 Amanebak wrote: I wouldn't mind a successful 5 pool. Oh that would be awesome. As there ever be one in modern BW ? | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:21 Amanebak wrote: I wouldn't mind a successful 5 pool. That would be so anti-climatic, god no lol | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:22 Disregard wrote: That would be so anti-climatic, god no lol it'd be in line | ||
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Amanebak
Czech Republic528 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:22 FFW_Rude wrote: Oh that would be awesome. As there ever be one in modern BW ? I remember Bisu losing vs Hyvaa, but the 5 pool was just the beginning, Hyvaa transitioned into something else. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:19 Lachrymose wrote: Not at all. Outplaying is playing better. Demonstrating greater mastery. Winning is winning. Often they overlap, sometimes they don't. And what is to play better? How do you determine that? Seems like you have some artificial value in place that isn't winning or losing, in a game where winning and losing is the only thing that matters. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:22 PVJ wrote: Just one amazing macro game, please. It's sylphid. Stork & Larva do it all the time. It's been very enjoyable matchup but this is missing I like this comment very much ! | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:18 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Winning = outplaying. That's the only definable measure of skill. To win. This assertion is wrong. In a game where luck is a component, skill will never be the only determining factor to win, which means not every victory is caused by higher skill. And it also very much varies between games. When you place all your hopes into a strategy that is largely luck-based and win then the win is also largely luck-based as opposed to skill-based. Obviously skill plays a roll as well. I wouldn't have hold any of the cheeses here against those two even if I scouted them. But when players are on a similar level, these strategies are largely luck-based because it only comes down to scouting in time. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
Put some cannons !! | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: it was 2 hatch muta into double expand, its bisu's mistake for not finding the expansion, not that he would have because he'd have to respect the 2hatch muta meaning that he'd need a fleet of sairs before he could comfortably move out, in the meantime soma decided to take that base instead. Information control is outplaying plain and simple, especially when it works out. "Bisu got outplayed by not doing thing X." "Also it's impossible for P to do thing X. "Sounds like a really useful definition of outplay you're working with there. | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:28 Lachrymose wrote: "Bisu got outplayed by not doing thing X." "Also it's impossible for P to do thing X. "Sounds like a really useful definition of outplay you're working with there. yes, I put the other person in a position where they couldn't do anything, thats literally outplaying. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
HOW FITTING FOR BISU | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
SHUTTLE | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
HOW THE FUCKL HAHAHAHAHA | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
Good try Bisu | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21685 Posts
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VioleTAK
4315 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Amanebak
Czech Republic528 Posts
Why do I have to be so emotionally involved! | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
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Byyk
457 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
Good. | ||
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Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
edit: how can anyone enjoy this, I have no idea. I mean I sort of understand Soma because he wants the fame and probably money, so he cheeses every game because he knows he has no real chance in macro game. But why are people enjoy watching this? Ahh, let's not even go into this... | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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D-light
Finland7364 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:34 konadora wrote: ROUND OF 4 FOR MY BOY SOMA Unfortunately. | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
That was really impressive, to do that under so much pressure where your only instinct is to hold. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
haters gonna hate  | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
Oh well. Light v Soma. Probably even better than Light v Bisu. And Soma v Flash would be fun. Bisu will be back much stronger next season. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6590 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3116 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:27 PVJ wrote: Soma has such good builds for each game. He's my new july That's a great comparison. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:26 Miragee wrote: This assertion is wrong. In a game where luck is a component, skill will never be the only determining factor to win, which means not every victory is caused by higher skill. And it also very much varies between games. When you place all your hopes into a strategy that is largely luck-based and win then the win is also largely luck-based as opposed to skill-based. Obviously skill plays a roll as well. I wouldn't have hold any of the cheeses here against those two even if I scouted them. But when players are on a similar level, these strategies are largely luck-based because it only comes down to scouting in time. Where was the luck on game 1 and 2? Soma outplayed Bisu in both those games, partially because Bisu played worse, but Soma also played more intelligently and more skillfully as well. | ||
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:35 Alpha-NP- wrote: Every zerg should be ashamed of themselves after seeing that final game. Sad to knock out such a good player by just spamming the Hy button and hydra busting. Meaning that good player can't hold hydra bust after 15 years of this build existing ?  + Show Spoiler + Just joking. I don't even know if that was a standard hydra bust and don't even remember how it was done | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:36 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: time to learn Soma builds and win zvp I think he learned most of it from Shine | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:36 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: time to learn Soma builds and win zvp You already know how to 1sh2sh3sh4sz | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
negligible impact on PvT less chance for hydra attacks or muta all-ins on the main and a more stable PvZ less chance for DT chesse in PvP | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
we get TvT TvZ or ZvZ final | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
who here remembers when shine was considered a sub par 40% winrate player and went on a 14 game win streak during proleague with builds like 9 pool speed lolol | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:38 FFW_Rude wrote: Meaning that good player can't hold hydra bust after 15 years of this build existing ? you said it! bisu fanboys just hating lol | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:36 konadora wrote: it doesnt matter how you win as long as you won without cheating. soma is getting all the hate here the same way flash got his hate when he started winning during his debut haters gonna hate Honestly don't care who won. They both didn't show a single inspiring game. A few great moments but as a whole this was a farce. I haven't seen Light play TvZ in a long time but if he is still playing TvZ as I remember he will rip Chosim to shreds. You can't do silly cheeses every game against terran. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
And I nearly forgot how salty Bisu fans got after he loses. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:38 Rainalcar wrote: We need cannons warping in 3 seconds faster: negligible impact on PvT less chance for hydra attacks or muta all-ins on the main and a more stable PvZ less chance for DT chesse in PvP or just build them faster and dont be so greedy lol | ||
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Cush
United States646 Posts
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Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:36 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: time to learn Soma builds and win zvp 1. 3hatchery+den 2. make hydras 3. ??? 4. profit (win) | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:39 Miragee wrote: Honestly don't care who won. They both didn't show a single inspiring game. A few great moments but as a whole this was a farce. I haven't seen Light play TvZ in a long time but if he is still playing TvZ as I remember he will rip Chosim to shreds. You can't do silly cheeses every game against terran. guess you've not seen the sponsored matches then? soma's lategame is pretty good as well, it's not going to be that easy for light | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:39 Miragee wrote: Honestly don't care who won. They both didn't show a single inspiring game. A few great moments but as a whole this was a farce. I haven't seen Light play TvZ in a long time but if he is still playing TvZ as I remember he will rip Chosim to shreds. You can't do silly cheeses every game against terran. if you want to see what light vs soma might look like check this | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
How can anyone ever, EVER, cheer for zergs vs protoss when this is the kind of disgusting play they keep showing over and over? Not seeing justice prevail like tonight really does break my heart. But that's life, can't ever quit trying even though life is unfair. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:39 Cush wrote: Bisu fanboys are mad lol. He should have scouted better. If he had seen the hydras in games 1 and 5 a few seconds earlier this would be a different series. honestly you would be silly not to expect hydras that last game considering how hard soma was chasing that probe | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:38 Rainalcar wrote: We need cannons warping in 3 seconds faster: negligible impact on PvT less chance for hydra attacks or muta all-ins on the main and a more stable PvZ less chance for DT chesse in PvP thank god you're not in charge of balance | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:39 Miragee wrote: Honestly don't care who won. They both didn't show a single inspiring game. A few great moments but as a whole this was a farce. I haven't seen Light play TvZ in a long time but if he is still playing TvZ as I remember he will rip Chosim to shreds. You can't do silly cheeses every game against terran. Oh man you are in for a ride, Soma's ZvT is crazy good. I remember awhile back he was giving Flash a hard time. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:39 konadora wrote: or just build them faster and dont be so greedy lol I think you are right kona! I saw many games and replays of Bisu and he always delays them! Always goes for many probes, or tech and he gets lings in his base many times, or worse, hydra busts | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:38 ggsimida wrote: no matter what builds he go for an amateur always deserves more respect and encouragement, not hate. hating on upcoming talent is the last thing the scene needs +++ And actually he wasn't just in by luck. He won 3-2 fighting his life out clearly preparing lots of strategies and so many amazing decisions in his army movement supply chain. These weren't just usual blind all-ins. Soma deserves lots of respect and maybe some admiration too and I think the best we could do is analyse his builds and share our respect | ||
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Amanebak
Czech Republic528 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:38 Rainalcar wrote: We need cannons warping in 3 seconds faster: negligible impact on PvT less chance for hydra attacks or muta all-ins on the main and a more stable PvZ less chance for DT chesse in PvP More cannon rushes. Yes, I hope they make the change. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:39 RowdierBob wrote: Feels like a Flash v Light final. And I nearly forgot how salty Bisu fans got after he loses. hah yeah, you got that right, forgot what its like to actually get behind a player instead of just rooting for good games. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:35 Szinkler wrote: This Soma guy, omg. Can literally only allin. Such amazing talent, so amazing games. Thank you Soma! edit: how can anyone enjoy this, I have no idea. I mean I sort of understand Soma because he wants the fame and probably money, so he cheeses every game because he knows he has no real chance in macro game. But why are people enjoy watching this? Ahh, let's not even go into this... You're stupid. Soma has incredible macro play. He played like this because it was Bisu and because of the maps. It was a brilliant strategical move. | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:39 RowdierBob wrote: Feels like a Flash v Light final. And I nearly forgot how salty Bisu fans got after he loses. Soma vs Flash would be nice too. But really want to give Light another chance at a win. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:39 konadora wrote: or just build them faster and dont be so greedy lol It's a thin line and sometimes you simply cannot know in TvZ. Even up to this day we see hydra all-ins killing great players all the time. For an all-in, it should be more risky for the Zerg. | ||
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goody153
44125 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:40 Dante08 wrote: Oh man you are in for a ride, Soma's ZvT is crazy good. I remember awhile back he was giving Flash a hard time. Is he the biggest contender to upsetting flash ? | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:37 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Where was the luck on game 1 and 2? Soma outplayed Bisu in both those games, partially because Bisu played worse, but Soma also played more intelligently and more skillfully as well. Protoss can't get info after Zergling speed finishes. From there Zerg can choose from a series of all-ins/builds that payout when the first Corsair is available and Protoss can force scouting. If Protoss doesn't guess right they are somewhere between severely behind and dead on the spot. Luck is having the Protoss not guess right. There is no option or mechanic in the game that allows Protoss to bypass this dice game, short of playing an even quicker dice game like a gate or cannon rush. | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:40 Motivate wrote: honestly you would be silly not to expect hydras that last game considering how hard soma was chasing that probe Seriously. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:41 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Soma didn't prepare for the last map omg hahaha. Neo Sylphid is the FS/CB of 2020, you don't really "prepare" for it, its your standard map. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:42 goody153 wrote: Is he the biggest contender to upsetting flash ? Of the three players remaining , probably yes. He , then Zero , then Light Imo Light has the least amount of chance | ||
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goody153
44125 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
we alive | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:41 Amanebak wrote: More cannon rushes. Yes, I hope they make the change. That is not a fair comparison. Cannon rushes are seen as often as 2hatch lurker all-ins, so, rare. Hydras are seen all the time. | ||
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goody153
44125 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:43 prosatan wrote: Of the three players remaining , probably yes. He , then Zero , then Light Imo Light has the least amount of chance Cool. Light vs Chosim sounds fun | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
Bisu constantly making the same mistake vs Z since.. idk, 2008-9? Wasnt surprised at all that he didn't make enough cannons. well.. better to lose the game than be behind in minerals a bit, I guess. | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:43 Ziggy wrote: worth pointing out today's viewership was roughly ~2 higher than the previous peak for the season we alive isolation | ||
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Amanebak
Czech Republic528 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:40 tanngard wrote: I actually stopped breathing and started hyperventilating during that bust. How can anyone ever, EVER, cheer for zergs vs protoss when this is the kind of disgusting play they keep showing over and over? Not seeing justice prevail like tonight really does break my heart. But that's life, can't ever quit trying even though life is unfair. How one can ever cheer for zergs. 1) psi storms 2) archons 3) reavers 4) dts 5) zerg creatures are cute and fragile, I don't like them dying. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:43 Ziggy wrote: worth pointing out today's viewership was roughly ~2 higher than the previous peak for the season we alive Aliens ! | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:43 Rainalcar wrote: That is not a fair comparison. Cannon rushes are seen as often as 2hatch lurker all-ins, so, rare. Hydras are seen all the time. exactly, this is not SC2.. cannon rushes are superultra rare. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:45 M3t4PhYzX wrote: exactly, this is not SC2.. cannon rushes are superultra rare. that is the point, you make cannons warp in 3 seconds earlier and then p players start cannon rushing every game because it would be super ultra broken... | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:40 tanngard wrote: I actually stopped breathing and started hyperventilating during that bust. How can anyone ever, EVER, cheer for zergs vs protoss when this is the kind of disgusting play they keep showing over and over? Not seeing justice prevail like tonight really does break my heart. But that's life, can't ever quit trying even though life is unfair. I'm P and I wouldn't say I cheered for Soma but his intelligence transcends race | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
Bisu is known to play macro games and likes to get ahead early on as much as possible, so Soma decided to end the game early. Except the 2 hatch lair (weird) game (which I think Bisu should have won, to be honest) there was nothing innovative or particularily impressive about what he did - I honestly believe holding strats like that as a protoss is a really hard balancing act that's relatively easy to abuse as a zerg unless the protoss overcommits to defences and puts himself at a disadvantage in the mid game. If every Terran won most of all their games vs zerg doing BBS rushes people would get bored of that really quickly, too; Maybe that's my bias speaking here, but I tend to see zergs winning with hydra busts *much* more often than protoss holding them. Nevertheless, the series was fun to watch and the last game especially had me on my toes! | ||
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:42 goody153 wrote: Is he the biggest contender to upsetting flash ? Soma has had very decent spon games results against Flash. However it's a final so Flash will be at 120%. Can't see Flash losing a TvT final either. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:42 Rainalcar wrote: It's a thin line and sometimes you simply cannot know in TvZ. Even up to this day we see hydra all-ins killing great players all the time. For an all-in, it should be more risky for the Zerg. it is? because when protoss builds cannons and plays defensively while zergs are going all-in, it truly is an all-in. for protoss, they can spam cannons but it's not the end of the line for them. protoss players just need to stop playing greedily against an anti-greed build | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:47 Garrl wrote: that is the point, you make cannons warp in 3 seconds earlier and then p players start cannon rushing every game because it would be super ultra broken... i really don't think it would be broken at all.. but this is a dull discussion anyways, because there is not a chance that they will make this change in 2020 for BW  or any other change for that matter. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:40 konadora wrote: guess you've not seen the sponsored matches then? soma's lategame is pretty good as well, it's not going to be that easy for light No I haven't. I hope you are proven correct. TvZ is my favourite match up and it would be sad to have 2 roll-overs. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:43 FFW_Rude wrote: It's like people don't understand map/player preparation and forget that most of the star player started by doing allin and cheese (Looking at you Boxer... or FlaSh) ^ | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:48 oxKnu wrote: Soma has had very decent spon games results against Flash. However it's a final so Flash will be at 120%. Can't see Flash losing a TvT final either. i dont know if its just me, but flash seems to be so much stronger offline than online... online he seems to be regularly upsetted | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
I thought about it right now!!! As soon as the sair is out, you make 3 or 4 cannons at your nat. By the time he arrives at zerg base the cannons aren't yet done! And if you see lair , quickly cancel them. And if you see hydra den , you let them finish! And if you cancel them you only lose few minerals ! | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:49 konadora wrote: it is? because when protoss builds cannons and plays defensively while zergs are going all-in, it truly is an all-in. for protoss, they can spam cannons but it's not the end of the line for them. protoss players just need to stop playing greedily against an anti-greed build Protoss needs to get out on the map ASAP if Zerg is powering instead. If you make enough cannons in the dark to hold a Hydrabust blind you won't have a critical mass of Zealots to move out for a very long time and you will have to play even more defensive. At some point down this game tree your third is just a losing battle one way or another. | ||
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Piste
6177 Posts
And a typical day for a Bisu fan.. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6590 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:53 prosatan wrote: A solution may exist! I thought about it right now!!! As soon as the sair is out, you make 3 or 4 cannons at your nat. By the time he arrives at zerg base the cannons aren't yet done! And if you see lair , quickly cancel them. And if you see hydra den , you let them finish! And if you cancel them you only lose few minerals ! funny how this solutions always appears when Bisu loss games xD. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:40 BLinD-RawR wrote: if you want to see what light vs soma might look like check this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvHK8QroSLk Hm, I think I remember watching this. Forgot how the games went. : / | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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Starecat
938 Posts
Not even pointing at SC2 many modern multiplayer games patch the game to please balance QQ instead of giving it time to see how it evolves and solve itself over the time. | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
These best players in the world make these amount of cannons because these are the amount of cannons that win the most when they play. Your idea is not revolutionary or complicated. Over time the Protoss trend is to make less and less cannons. This is not because Protoss players are getting dumber and dumber. It is because the benefits of making less cannons is outweighs the negatives of making less cannons. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 07 2020 21:01 PVJ wrote: Immediately after the matches Stork has started to stream and play against Calm titled 'Let's solve toss...' :D hahahaha, hopefully he'll find some stuff out, protoss needs it. | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:56 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: funny how this solutions always appears when Bisu loss games xD. When every second counts, i don't see why its not a good idea to do what prosatan proposed | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
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Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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TiQ.SinGi
Norway385 Posts
Seems very likley it will be a Flash vs Light finals, first TvT since Flash vs Sea in ASL2. Will be interesting if it comes to those two though, reigning ASL winner vs the last KSL champion ^_^ Can't remember if it was Artosis or Tastless joking about final predictions in one of the early RO8 matches.. One of them called a possible light vs flash finals. Predicitions getting true.Not that I don't like mirror mu's, but was really hoping for either Flash v stork or Bisu. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6590 Posts
On April 07 2020 21:05 tanngard wrote: When every second counts, i don't see why its not a good idea to do what prosatan proposed im not saying is bad.is just interesting that i saw it some years ago in a bisu series(canon recommendation).i have seen some protoss going 2 canons and then starting 3 and 4.scout mid. dont see units coming then cancel it.the problem with this is that if zerg is playing standard u re going to miss some key timings. dt storm gateway numbers.imo the best way to deal with this is with worker scout and zealot distraction.zerg doing hydra den.4 canons + zealots is enough.sair is scouting so if the drone count is low u need to add 3 more canons.is enough to let u get ready with a reaver or storm. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
On April 07 2020 21:05 tanngard wrote: When every second counts, i don't see why its not a good idea to do what prosatan proposed YES haha! I am a mini revolutionist !!  | ||
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bisufans~
9 Posts
my beloved Bisu | ||
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Incomplete..ReV
Norway633 Posts
Ugly series, but well played Soma :-) | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
On April 07 2020 21:28 Incomplete..ReV wrote: Bisu underwhelms yet again (except for the probe drill in game 4). Well done by Soma, though! Ugly series, but well played Soma :-) yeah, he's pretty good at making hydras that's for sure | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
Series was amazing, really sad Bisu lost but damn what a game. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
On April 07 2020 21:39 BisuDagger wrote: Oh, Bisu lost to a couple hydra busts? Okay. yeah, I was really surprised myself, because that never happened before. Weird. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1594 Posts
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3329 Posts
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3329 Posts
On April 07 2020 21:27 bisufans~ wrote: my beloved Bisu Wait what the heck. Our usernames.... now youre going to confuse people lol | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:47 Garrl wrote: that is the point, you make cannons warp in 3 seconds earlier and then p players start cannon rushing every game because it would be super ultra broken... That is only possible on some maps, mostly if you're opening hatch first. Even then it can be stopped regularly. Soma himself said he wasn't prepared for it on hitchhiker. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:49 konadora wrote: it is? because when protoss builds cannons and plays defensively while zergs are going all-in, it truly is an all-in. for protoss, they can spam cannons but it's not the end of the line for them. protoss players just need to stop playing greedily against an anti-greed build Of course, but they oftentimes they can't because scouting is impossible. There have been games where P makes a cannon to many: Z kills him in midgame as a rule. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:59 Starecat wrote: I'm okay with PvZ having the possibility to go like that last game, I'm more okay with players picking the way they play than having their hand forced. Not even pointing at SC2 many modern multiplayer games patch the game to please balance QQ instead of giving it time to see how it evolves and solve itself over the time. Completely agreed. But after so many years, there is some certainty that hydra busts before storm and its relatively low risk for zerg will not go away by some genius feat, from any protoss. | ||
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3329 Posts
On April 07 2020 22:32 Rainalcar wrote: Completely agreed. But after so many years, there is some certainty that hydra busts before storm and its relatively low risk for zerg will not go away by some genius feat, from any protoss. I just think the risk reward for getting one too many cannons doesnt pay off because they're static and relatively weak. Instead, let's just give the ability for zealots to hop inside a cannon which makes them man the cannons for faster attack speed. Heck, let's give cannons an upgrade which makes them shoot farther and then also give the ability for probes to repair them too :p problem solved ezpz But in all seriousness, it sort of sucks that in this particular situation, the imperative is on the toss to keep scouting and then react accordingly whereas for terrans you dont need to keep scouting for as long before you're "safe". It just feels like the window for error while the hydras can punish you stays a bit longer for the toss | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
Game 1: Bisu lost way too many zealots in the early game. In every PvZ, after 2 early Zealots are lost the counter in my head starts going off. You can't trade 3 or more zealots pre-hyrda bust to only lings. It is a guaranteed bargain for the zerg every time. Those loses cost him the game, not the cannons. Game 2: Soma out smarted Bisu. One of the most genius things he did was spread his scourge to the top left corner of match point. Remember when that first corsair was running from scourge, took a left turn and immediately got hit by a scourge forcing the corsair back down again? The scourge placement blocked Bisu from flying to the top left before heading back to his main. Later Bisu had what SC2 games call an F2 moment. Bisu had 4 zealots in a control group. He split two to scout the top left base, but then control group ordered his zealots to the other side of the map. Bisu failed to see it twice with major credit to Soma. Game 3-4: We know how that went Game 5: Bisu saved his zealots and you immediately see the major difference in defense. Bisu's huge mistake was building a robo and a templar archives. If Bisu skips robo, it leaves him gas for a faster templar archives into a faster DT. It also leaves him minerals for a crucial extra cannon. Then he invested in a shuttle instead of an extra cannon again. The double high tech is what ultimately killed him in that game. The DT that did major damage to Soma traveled by ground and proved that Bisu didn't need the shuttle to make the hold. Argue about cannons all you want, but there were many other factors that left Bisu too weak to win. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
On April 07 2020 23:00 mishimaBeef wrote: maybe if protoss found a way to play against lings without giving up the gateway + forge to hydras then the hydras will be more easily played against Bisu pioneered this with his +1 speed lot build. You can watch the build in motion versus Kwanro 1. Forge Expand with standard cannon setup 2. Starts +1 on forge, builds citadel with the expectation to tech to templars 3. Kwanro timing preempts his ability to finish +1 on the forge 4. Bisu cancels +1 and immediately heads into templar tech for either DTs or Storm depending on the location of the nearest overlord Strengths of this build: * Puts protoss on the map the quickest after defending bust * Allows for counter harass * Sets up for best late game tech Weakness: * Sacrifices corsair count * Can die to deceptive muta tech I think the reason we don't see this build executed the same way today: 1. Zerg current meta is great at disguising build orders more then ever 2. Zergs are using the maps to their advantage given the current meta | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10158 Posts
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Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
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plast1c
Germany99 Posts
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
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Brainojack
Canada195 Posts
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Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
More thoughts... DA have 3 more sight compared to HT (7 vs 10), have faster movement speed. The downside is that maelstrom requires 100 energy vs 75 (DA and HT both start with 50) and two DTs are +200 minerals and +50 gas over one HT. But including spell upgrade cost, one DA with maelstrom is +100 minerals and -50 gas than one HT with storm. Plus DTs can be used for other purposes. Maybe DA could be safer than HT for holding a push, and more dangerous for Z because their hydra army could be wiped (instead of storms which just keep them back). | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
On April 07 2020 21:07 Sonic_md wrote: Again TvT final (Again? We had very few TvT finals in the past decade. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5558 Posts
On April 08 2020 02:11 sM.Zik wrote: Again? We had very few TvT finals in the past decade. I'm hoping for Flash vs. Soma. ^__^ | ||
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plast1c
Germany99 Posts
On April 07 2020 21:34 M3t4PhYzX wrote: yeah, he's pretty good at making hydras that's for sure very useful talent toi have | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
If we're talking about changes in P strategy, I wouldn't mind seeing progamers explore skipping corsair and see what can be done with that | ||
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chozen86
United States60 Posts
On April 07 2020 20:36 Disregard wrote: Soma with the Shine tactics against Bisu lmaoo, flashbacks. Underrated take. | ||
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Lazyer
United States342 Posts
ptsd from shine killing my protoss bois in starleague ;- ; | ||
GTR
51451 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 08 2020 06:07 GTR wrote: light vs soma is going to be a fucking amazing series. it's going to be up there with the likes of flash vs jaedong from asl2 and flash vs effort from asl 6 when all is said and done. Or Soma will fly 20 scourges into a command center again. | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
The last game was so tense, I was sweating bullets. Too bad bisu did not come through, I think building that robo+shuttle was a really bad decision, costed him precious additional cannons | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 08 2020 02:01 Xxio wrote: Would maelstrom ever work in that situation or against hydra bust in general? I'm probably wrong but imagine maelstrom on hydras when they dive on cannons. Seems good. It's 100 less minerals and 100 less gas to research than storm and about 10 seconds faster. DTs require more minerals and less gas than HT. More thoughts... DA have 3 more sight compared to HT (7 vs 10), have faster movement speed. The downside is that maelstrom requires 100 energy vs 75 (DA and HT both start with 50) and two DTs are +200 minerals and +50 gas over one HT. But including spell upgrade cost, one DA with maelstrom is +100 minerals and -50 gas than one HT with storm. Plus DTs can be used for other purposes. Maybe DA could be safer than HT for holding a push, and more dangerous for Z because their hydra army could be wiped (instead of storms which just keep them back). I think that the mileage you can get out of 2 DTs in the moment is greater than the power of a later DA ability. The only time I see DA usage is when Best is playing against a more passive Zerg who opens mutas. Not saying it can't be done, just thinking of reasons why isn't. | ||
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3329 Posts
On April 08 2020 05:41 Plume wrote: ptsd from shine killing my protoss bois in starleague ;- ; and then completely getting steamrolled the next series by literally anyone | ||
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LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
We may have the best semi finals on a long time now, it's looking very very good | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Game 5 was exciting. The remaining matches should be excellent, only I fear that maybe Flash vs Light would be too lopsided. Hope I'm wrong about that as I think it's the most likely finals configuration. | ||
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Psionic Mango
1 Post
Soma won fair and square, get over it | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Still, I'm not convinced with the Soma hype just yet. People have been raving him as the next big Zerg bonjwa. But he played such a risky coin-flippy Shine-esque game against Bisu, barely scrapping 3-2 in a matchup slightly in favour of Zerg. Based on the hype, I was expecting him to beat Bisu, but in longer macro games (not like this, not like this...). So I was somewhat disappointed, in the end. If he's such a macro god, why he didn't play more straight-up games? In poker, the stronger player would lean more towards safe low-ball low-variance play (playing more hands, not over-betting too much, avoiding pre-flop all-ins, etc.). But Soma choose to play risky builds that would put him in a great disadvantage if scouted correctly (there was some discussion about 'outplay' in the previous pages - in my view, 'outplaying' means utterly dominating the other player in almost all aspects of a game e.g. Federer winning straight sets 6-3 against a rank 50 player in a Grand Slam). Also, a new player still struggling with nerves should be more inclined towards safer play. Risky play can be game-ending with a single mistake. And indeed, Soma showed some nerves and misplays (losing a bunch of scourges, slow reaction towards DT in his base). Look, I haven't seen much of Soma's games. Maybe his other matchups are better. Maybe he really respected Bisu's PvZ prowess and felt playing shorter games was more strategically sound. So my question goes more to Soma's mindset - was he confident that his 'bag of builds' was the best way to beat Bisu? was his approach to the game really the most optimal strategy? was he really playing to his strenghts? (Please don't mistake my post as criticising Soma at all. It's more to do about the hype and perception around him. I was under the impression he would be a solid all-round Zerg, but didn't get that from the games yesterday.) | ||
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Just_a_Moth
Canada1952 Posts
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On April 07 2020 23:31 BisuDagger wrote: Game 5: Bisu saved his zealots and you immediately see the major difference in defense. Bisu's huge mistake was building a robo and a templar archives. If Bisu skips robo, it leaves him gas for a faster templar archives into a faster DT. It also leaves him minerals for a crucial extra cannon. Then he invested in a shuttle instead of an extra cannon again. The double high tech is what ultimately killed him in that game. The DT that did major damage to Soma traveled by ground and proved that Bisu didn't need the shuttle to make the hold. This is kinda nonsense honestly. It's only because of Soma's "mistake" that the DT could do any damage to the bust. If stopping Hydrabust with a DT was actually viable then Zerg would be prepared with Overlords. You can't just make a slightly faster DT and rely on that to hold for you. Having a shuttle allowed him to deal real counterattack damage and was the thing closest to saving the game. You could clearly see that even though the bust stalled out multiple times Zerg was still gaining ground over time even with the economic damage from the shuttle. Stalling the beginning of the bust a little more with a DT isn't reliable and wouldn't do anything anyway. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 08 2020 10:06 Just_a_Moth wrote: I think in game 2 Soma was planning to play a macro game, but it turned that he was just able to go and kill Bisu. Generally, the idea behind greedy builds and ninja expos is mid-game dominance - build a superior army in sudden speed, bust your opponent or deny them from expanding. Of course, it's not wrong to play towards late-game - but that would allow the opponent to 'catch up' and level the playing field, thus defeating the whole idea of risking a greedy build that can get you killed in an instant (the more optimal strategy would be to play a safer macro game). | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
On April 08 2020 09:44 RKC wrote: If he's such a macro god, why he didn't play more straight-up games? In poker, the stronger player would lean more towards safe low-ball low-variance play (playing more hands, not over-betting too much, avoiding pre-flop all-ins, etc.). But Soma choose to play risky builds that would put him in a great disadvantage if scouted correctly (there was some discussion about 'outplay' in the previous pages - in my view, 'outplaying' means utterly dominating the other player in almost all aspects of a game e.g. Federer winning straight sets 6-3 against a rank 50 player in a Grand Slam). Also, a new player still struggling with nerves should be more inclined towards safer play. Risky play can be game-ending with a single mistake. And indeed, Soma showed some nerves and misplays (losing a bunch of scourges, slow reaction towards DT in his base). Look, I haven't seen much of Soma's games. Maybe his other matchups are better. Maybe he really respected Bisu's PvZ prowess and felt playing shorter games was more strategically sound. So my question goes more to Soma's mindset - was he confident that his 'bag of builds' was the best way to beat Bisu? was his approach to the game really the most optimal strategy? was he really playing to his strenghts? (Please don't mistake my post as criticising Soma at all. It's more to do about the hype and perception around him. I was under the impression he would be a solid all-round Zerg, but didn't get that from the games yesterday.) You have an idealistic perspective around competition. No, not every poker player--or even most--would play small ball. Matter of fact, all the top players are known to be insanely aggressive, tricky, and unpredictable. Sounds a lot like Soma. Read your opponent. Soma played his opponent masterfully. I bet if he faced Best, you wouldn't see him play like that. No need. The goal is to win. Aggression is a perfectly viable strategy. I thought Soma played extremely well. It wasn't reckless risk. It was measured, carefully crafted risk. He was completely unpredictable. Soma has played a ton of long macro games with these pros. I think people need to get off the pride that comes with winning long macro games. Skill and creativity come in all different sizes. Just watch more Soma and stop relying on small sample sizes. I also don't think anyone is calling Soma the next bonjwa. People are just hopeful and excited for fresh blood. No need to strawman to prove your point. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 08 2020 09:20 Psionic Mango wrote: Man, the amount of salt on this thread from bisu fans is incredible lmao Soma won fair and square, get over it You know something's wrong when BisuDagger admits that Bisu made mistakes but 17 other fanboiis somehow can't get over it. | ||
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AF0x
United States59 Posts
Don't know why people are surprised/angry that Soma didn't play standard games... The style Bisu is strongest against... in a match that would determine ro4, thus prize money and seed into next ASL... Seriously, dude came prepared for every map (except for the cannon rush I guess) and his execution was incredibly tight against the best PvZ of all time, give the guy some credit. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
On April 08 2020 11:09 AF0x wrote: The protoss tears in this thread are deeeelicious, so happy for Soma getting ro4! Don't know why people are surprised/angry that Soma didn't play standard games... The style Bisu is strongest against... in a match that would determine ro4, thus prize money and seed into next ASL... Seriously, dude came prepared for every map (except for the cannon rush I guess) and his execution was incredibly tight against the best PvZ of all time, give the guy some credit. This. Bisu has a near 90% winrate in games where he establishes a third without losing probes due to harassment or rushes prior to getting that nexus. Letting Bisu get a third base is the biggest mistake any Zerg could make. Soma played to Bisu's weaknesses which we have an ample catalog of since the Sospa era. I actually feel like Rain is probably the best protoss to play against a player like Soma based on today's games. Rain rarely loses in the early game of PvZ, but then lacks the ability to close out the game. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 08 2020 10:57 GorillaPimp wrote: You have an idealistic perspective around competition. No, not every poker player--or even most--would play small ball. Matter of fact, all the top players are known to be insanely aggressive, tricky, and unpredictable. Sounds a lot like Soma. Read your opponent. Soma played his opponent masterfully. I bet if he faced Best, you wouldn't see him play like that. No need. The goal is to win. Aggression is a perfectly viable strategy. I thought Soma played extremely well. It wasn't reckless risk. It was measured, carefully crafted risk. He was completely unpredictable. Soma has played a ton of long macro games with these pros. I think people need to get off the pride that comes with winning long macro games. Skill and creativity come in all different sizes. Just watch more Soma and stop relying on small sample sizes. I also don't think anyone is calling Soma the next bonjwa. People are just hopeful and excited for fresh blood. No need to strawman to prove your point. I really don't wish to get into a fight, hence I don't want to respond directly (as much as I want to). But your last sentence says it all. Prove what point? I wasn't making a point. I was merely raising a question, an issue for discussion. The question marks were genuinely questions, not rhetorical propaganda. I've already made it expressly clear that I'm not dismissive of Soma's achievements and skills, just not convinced of his credentials as a favourite in the tournament (based on his mindset). Why do you remove the 'Zerg bonjwa' part of my original post? Clearly, I didn't mean to 'strawman' him as being greater than Flash and former greats, but contextually relate to his current hype as the upcoming best Zerg player. Why do you read everything literally and assume so much of my intentions? Look at my history of posts. I like to ask questions, to hear different viewpoints. I'm not an expert. I don't play the game anymore. I thought the BW community was more level-headed than SC2 (hence, one reason I cut down posting 'questions' there). Why must people doubt the bona fide of others so much? So disappointing to get shut down by 'shut up, play more games, watch more games' responses. It's almost as if posting is a privilege - that I shouldn't be posting anything if I haven't done my homework and passed some kind of test. I guess if that's the way TL works, I will just revert to lurking and not posting (I still do enjoy and appreciate the forums). | ||
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GTR
51451 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 08 2020 11:18 BisuDagger wrote: This. Bisu has a near 90% winrate in games where he establishes a third without losing probes due to harassment or rushes prior to getting that nexus. Letting Bisu get a third base is the biggest mistake any Zerg could make. Soma played to Bisu's weaknesses which we have an ample catalog of since the Sospa era. I actually feel like Rain is probably the best protoss to play against a player like Soma based on today's games. Rain rarely loses in the early game of PvZ, but then lacks the ability to close out the game. Would you say that such win-rate is because Bisu gets into the late-game by cutting corners and making aggressive harassment plays that slow down the Zerg? Meaning to say, Bisu's late-game superiority is down to a risky strat as well (hence, his win-rate of 90% is rather deceiving and should be reduced by the fact that he only, say, has a 50-60% chance to get into that favourable position)? | ||
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Highways
Australia6103 Posts
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kidcrash
United States620 Posts
just cancel the extra cannons? | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
To your question: Soma has miles and miles to go before he’ll be on the same footing as, say, Jaedong in terms of stature and accomplishments. But to anyone who draws comparisons between the two, I wouldn’t counterargue that Soma was too tricky or aggressive in this match. The great players have always won by hook or by crook. Jaedong 4-pooled Hwasin in the MSL at the height of his dominance. Flash and Jaedong have always cheesed each other as often as not in series play (to the dismay of a lot of viewers). Boxer is famous for bunker rushing Yellow three times in a row in an OSL, eliminating him (also to the dismay of many viewers). Just on the other side of the bracket in this ASL, Flash bunker rushed Action in the deciding game and followed up with a proxy factory. I could go on. Great players cheese against both equally strong players and lesser players all the time. To your other question: At least part of it is that Bisu is great at being everywhere at once, a skill that pays the biggest dividends when there are lots of bases to harass and units to harass with. | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On April 08 2020 06:07 GTR wrote: light vs soma is going to be a fucking amazing series. it's going to be up there with the likes of flash vs jaedong from asl2 and flash vs effort from asl 6 when all is said and done. Can totally see Light vs Soma becoming a rivalry for the ages. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
On April 07 2020 23:31 BisuDagger wrote: Let's take the focus off cannons: Game 1: Bisu lost way too many zealots in the early game. In every PvZ, after 2 early Zealots are lost the counter in my head starts going off. You can't trade 3 or more zealots pre-hyrda bust to only lings. It is a guaranteed bargain for the zerg every time. Those loses cost him the game, not the cannons. Game 2: Soma out smarted Bisu. One of the most genius things he did was spread his scourge to the top left corner of match point. Remember when that first corsair was running from scourge, took a left turn and immediately got hit by a scourge forcing the corsair back down again? The scourge placement blocked Bisu from flying to the top left before heading back to his main. Later Bisu had what SC2 games call an F2 moment. Bisu had 4 zealots in a control group. He split two to scout the top left base, but then control group ordered his zealots to the other side of the map. Bisu failed to see it twice with major credit to Soma. Game 3-4: We know how that went Game 5: Bisu saved his zealots and you immediately see the major difference in defense. Bisu's huge mistake was building a robo and a templar archives. If Bisu skips robo, it leaves him gas for a faster templar archives into a faster DT. It also leaves him minerals for a crucial extra cannon. Then he invested in a shuttle instead of an extra cannon again. The double high tech is what ultimately killed him in that game. The DT that did major damage to Soma traveled by ground and proved that Bisu didn't need the shuttle to make the hold. Argue about cannons all you want, but there were many other factors that left Bisu too weak to win. I agree Bisu made mistakes that cost him the game ultimately. However I will say the margin of error is certainly pretty thin when it comes to PvZ. Bisu should have saw that hydra in game while the zealot was at his third base in game 1 hydra bust but Bisu didn't seem to react to the hydra and probably was focused on multitasking and didn't see the hydra until later when the other zealots got picked off in the middle of the map. If Bisu pulled probes sooner and had them actually in front of the cannons ready to stop hydras from sniping the cannons so quick, he would've held. So those 2 crucial mistakes cost him the game. I'd still argue that PvZ is still favored to Zerg. That's why historically we always see protoss losing to zerg all ins. There's always too much to anticipate and in the opposite match ups like TvP, Protoss is the aggressor in what Terran has to react while Protoss has the bag of builds. However Terran's defense is so much more robust and effective that even if Terran is caught off guard, Protoss builds usually never end the game outright but the game can continue with some healthy margins. To keep Zerg in check in the meta, I'd argue it would be nice if Zerg's hydralisk speed and atk range upgrades cost a bit more or took slightly longer to research. It doesn't affect TvZ or ZvZ at all, so doing so would help out protoss in the no scouting period between getting probes denied by speedlings and 1st corsair. I mean think about if Zerg had perfect control of his speedlings and zoned out any probes trying to scout. How is Protoss expected to scout the Zerg without relying on Zerg to make a mistake? The times where we do see Protoss scouting zerg in time it is usually due to the Zerg player not on top of zoning the map and denying scouting. With the movement speed of the lings vs probes/zealots. This is achievable to absolute denial of any scouting, provided they play well/perfectly. If they just changed hydra upgrades slightly that will give Protoss a little extra breathing room to scout in time. The risk is not balanced with rewards. Usually when you do an all in type of strategy you should lose or be in huge disadvantage if it doesn't work. But here we see Zerg can continue a perfectly normal game even after Protoss defends this without losing too many probes. When you scout a cheese rush strat you understand that when you don't scout it you can lose outright or win if you scout it. That's high risk high reward type situation. Here in the Zerg's perspective, it's relatively low risk (continue regular game) if it doesn't work vs winning outright. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 08 2020 11:28 RKC wrote: Would you say that such win-rate is because Bisu gets into the late-game by cutting corners and making aggressive harassment plays that slow down the Zerg? Meaning to say, Bisu's late-game superiority is down to a risky strat as well (hence, his win-rate of 90% is rather deceiving and should be reduced by the fact that he only, say, has a 50-60% chance to get into that favourable position)? Bisu took a nexus before cannon against 9pool in this series. There's no way you can argue he doesn't take insane risks to get ahead in the mid game hehe. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 08 2020 12:31 Moopower wrote: I agree Bisu made mistakes that cost him the game ultimately. However I will say the margin of error is certainly pretty thin when it comes to PvZ. Bisu should have saw that hydra in game while the zealot was at his third base in game 1 hydra bust but Bisu didn't seem to react to the hydra and probably was focused on multitasking and didn't see the hydra until later when the other zealots got picked off in the middle of the map. If Bisu pulled probes sooner and had them actually in front of the cannons ready to stop hydras from sniping the cannons so quick, he would've held. So those 2 crucial mistakes cost him the game. I'd still argue that PvZ is still favored to Zerg. That's why historically we always see protoss losing to zerg all ins. There's always too much to anticipate and in the opposite match ups like TvP, Protoss is the aggressor in what Terran has to react while Protoss has the bag of builds. However Terran's defense is so much more robust and effective that even if Terran is caught off guard, Protoss builds usually never end the game outright but the game can continue with some healthy margins. To keep Zerg in check in the meta, I'd argue it would be nice if Zerg's hydralisk speed and atk range upgrades cost a bit more or took slightly longer to research. It doesn't affect TvZ or ZvZ at all, so doing so would help out protoss in the no scouting period between getting probes denied by speedlings and 1st corsair. I mean think about if Zerg had perfect control of his speedlings and zoned out any probes trying to scout. How is Protoss expected to scout the Zerg without relying on Zerg to make a mistake? The times where we do see Protoss scouting zerg in time it is usually due to the Zerg player not on top of zoning the map and denying scouting. With the movement speed of the lings vs probes/zealots. This is achievable to absolute denial of any scouting, provided they play well/perfectly. If they just changed hydra upgrades slightly that will give Protoss a little extra breathing room to scout in time. The risk is not balanced with rewards. Usually when you do an all in type of strategy you should lose or be in huge disadvantage if it doesn't work. But here we see Zerg can continue a perfectly normal game even after Protoss defends this without losing too many probes. When you scout a cheese rush strat you understand that when you don't scout it you can lose outright or win if you scout it. That's high risk high reward type situation. Here in the Zerg's perspective, it's relatively low risk (continue regular game) if it doesn't work vs winning outright. I think you're vastly underestimating how close the last game was. Soma had 6 drones left. He had 0 gas income. If his last push hadn't broken through the cannons, it would have been a Zerg loss. Bisu fucked up several minor things that all added up to him not being able to hold the push (the primary one being his zealots being out of position and still on hold when Soma attacked in the first time because he was microing his zealot at the 3rd base), but there was never a world where Soma transitions to a solid macro game after Bisu holds. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On April 08 2020 11:03 EsportsJohn wrote: You know something's wrong when BisuDagger admits that Bisu made mistakes but 17 other fanboiis somehow can't get over it. Ironically, BisuDagger is a very reasonable Bisu fan! There are a lot of lurking Bisu fans that come out of the woodwork in times like this. I was rooting for Bisu because I wanted to see Bisu vs. Light (Soma vs. Light happened recently in KSL), and so there would be two different matchups in ro4. For the tournament though, this is probably better because Bisu in his current form probably had no shot against Flash in bo7, whereas Soma does. Soma understood Bisu’s weaknesses and did what he had to do to win. Much respect. | ||
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kaspa84
Brazil169 Posts
On April 08 2020 13:07 EsportsJohn wrote: I think you're vastly underestimating how close the last game was. Soma had 6 drones left. He had 0 gas income. If his last push hadn't broken through the cannons, it would have been a Zerg loss. Bisu fucked up several minor things that all added up to him not being able to hold the push (the primary one being his zealots being out of position and still on hold when Soma attacked in the first time because he was microing his zealot at the 3rd base), but there was never a world where Soma transitions to a solid macro game after Bisu holds. I basically agree with everything Moopower said, except that Hydra nerfing would affect TvZ by making Vulture/Wraith early harassment better. Yeah, Bisu did make mistakes, but the whole point is that P margin for error is so much smaller than Zerg's. And the fact that game 5 was close doesn't change that fact, but is another evidence of it, since Soma made a huge blunder losing lots of drones to a DT (or maybe he even didnt care?) but Bisu only made small mistakes and lost anyway. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Soma needs a lot more credit for the strategies he used and it's also Bisu's fault for how he played. The guy still loses to hydra busts after all these years lol. I remember when he played against Shine in ASL3 and got outplayed too. In game 1, he actually saw the hydra near the third mineral-only but decided to barely respond then when the hydra came, he didn't have much of a probe pull to help shield the cannons. Game 2 saw Soma doing a risky strat after a very interesting and deceptive opening/mid, but he did great at making sure Bisu never caught on till it was too late. Even then, Bisu managed to kill a lot of OLs and at least made it a game due to a scourge mistake. Game 3 was good defense by Bisu due to a lucky scout and game 4 was Soma getting caught off guard by the cannon rush and losing. On April 08 2020 13:07 EsportsJohn wrote: I think you're vastly underestimating how close the last game was. Soma had 6 drones left. He had 0 gas income. If his last push hadn't broken through the cannons, it would have been a Zerg loss. Bisu fucked up several minor things that all added up to him not being able to hold the push (the primary one being his zealots being out of position and still on hold when Soma attacked in the first time because he was microing his zealot at the 3rd base), but there was never a world where Soma transitions to a solid macro game after Bisu holds. yes! this was big imo. His zealots also seemed to bug or he miscontrolled them, but the point is that the zealots were sitting still while the hydras were dishing out their damage. Using a dt to drop to kill drones was questionable, however, this is how Bisu plays and I feel like it wasn't necessarily a bad call either. That game was really really close. A faster block or one more cannon would've meant that Bisu won the game and Soma lost. Soma's main was mostly cleaned out and he had no drones at the third (or barely any) plus Bisu got more drone kills at the exp with a dt he snucked outside the base. All said and done, Soma played this way because he knows how strong Bisu can be in the late game and he's poking at Bisu's weakness. Soma vs Light should be one amazing series considering they both play the mu really well so I'm excited. Wp Soma and hopefully you show us some electrifying games! | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10158 Posts
On April 08 2020 12:31 Moopower wrote: To keep Zerg in check in the meta, I'd argue it would be nice if Zerg's hydralisk speed and atk range upgrades cost a bit more or took slightly longer to research. It doesn't affect TvZ or ZvZ at all, so doing so would help out protoss in the no scouting period between getting probes denied by speedlings and 1st corsair. I mean think about if Zerg had perfect control of his speedlings and zoned out any probes trying to scout. How is Protoss expected to scout the Zerg without relying on Zerg to make a mistake? The times where we do see Protoss scouting zerg in time it is usually due to the Zerg player not on top of zoning the map and denying scouting. With the movement speed of the lings vs probes/zealots. This is achievable to absolute denial of any scouting, provided they play well/perfectly. If they just changed hydra upgrades slightly that will give Protoss a little extra breathing room to scout in time. As soon as you even discuss something like changes to the meta for as important of units like hydras, your argument goes straight down the toilet. It absolutely does impact TvZ. It might not impact the games you think it does, but it impacts the matchup enough. Stop calling for changes. Bisu fucking lost fair and square, he made mistakes that were punished. Every matchup is imbalanced, boohoo. Good players learn to hide those weaknesses or circumvent them. I remember when 3h hydra was so strong literally every game where Protoss decided to hide an extra probe on the map when they thought their first one was starting to get too low or was going to die soon. And then they'd get to late game and put themselves in a position where that 2nd probe wasn't that detrimental. It's up to Protoss to figure out how to counter. The meta moves forward. It always has. Stop calling for patches unless it's literally to move scout speed to the cyber core. | ||
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Carefree
United States1571 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On April 08 2020 13:31 darktreb wrote: Ironically, BisuDagger is a very reasonable Bisu fan! There are a lot of lurking Bisu fans that come out of the woodwork in times like this. I was rooting for Bisu because I wanted to see Bisu vs. Light (Soma vs. Light happened recently in KSL), and so there would be two different matchups in ro4. For the tournament though, this is probably better because Bisu in his current form probably had no shot against Flash in bo7, whereas Soma does. Soma understood Bisu’s weaknesses and did what he had to do to win. Much respect. I would be fine if BW was only made of TvZ. | ||
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
Light vs Soma would be epic, and Flash vs Zero too. And then 5 hour long bo5 TvT finals! | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 08 2020 11:28 RKC wrote: Would you say that such win-rate is because Bisu gets into the late-game by cutting corners and making aggressive harassment plays that slow down the Zerg? Meaning to say, Bisu's late-game superiority is down to a risky strat as well (hence, his win-rate of 90% is rather deceiving and should be reduced by the fact that he only, say, has a 50-60% chance to get into that favourable position)? To be honest, my personal feeling is that PvZ is a lot about how much the P can dictate the game from early on. Most P players play PvZ very defensively until they have "enough" to move out. Bisu is one of the few players that is constantly on the map, starting with his first zealot. His talent for insane multi-tasking and small scale micro helps him a lot here. This way he is often times able to not let the zerg do what he likes until midgame, which gives him an advantage moving into the late game. I think every protoss with PvZ as arguably their strongest match up has been kind of like that. Obviously there are not a lot of those but, aside from Bisu, Mini and Movie come to my mind. | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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Martin11
16 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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TornadoSteve
1031 Posts
On April 08 2020 09:44 RKC wrote:If he's such a macro god, why he didn't play more straight-up games? In poker, the stronger player would lean more towards safe low-ball low-variance play (playing more hands, not over-betting too much, avoiding pre-flop all-ins, etc.). But Soma choose to play risky builds that would put him in a great disadvantage if scouted correctly (there was some discussion about 'outplay' in the previous pages - in my view, 'outplaying' means utterly dominating the other player in almost all aspects of a game e.g. Federer winning straight sets 6-3 against a rank 50 player in a Grand Slam more respect for soma The build orders he chose in those particular games had nothing to do with preparation, it was a reaction (He adapted to the situation beautifully in most games such as killing the 1st scouting probe almost immediatly opened him a door ,etc) Also, dont forget that even if Soma is extremely good overall, the protoss against him is papabeesu. Pretty sure hes more than happy to avoid a long macro game against him, like any other zerg on the planet. I think Bisu played poorly, as expected. And Soma just did what he needed to. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
We need to see Pusan's take on this jinjin?? ^_^ On April 07 2020 23:31 BisuDagger wrote: Let's take the focus off cannons: Game 1: Bisu lost way too many zealots in the early game. In every PvZ, after 2 early Zealots are lost the counter in my head starts going off. You can't trade 3 or more zealots pre-hyrda bust to only lings. It is a guaranteed bargain for the zerg every time. Those loses cost him the game, not the cannons. Game 2: Soma out smarted Bisu. One of the most genius things he did was spread his scourge to the top left corner of match point. Remember when that first corsair was running from scourge, took a left turn and immediately got hit by a scourge forcing the corsair back down again? The scourge placement blocked Bisu from flying to the top left before heading back to his main. Later Bisu had what SC2 games call an F2 moment. Bisu had 4 zealots in a control group. He split two to scout the top left base, but then control group ordered his zealots to the other side of the map. Bisu failed to see it twice with major credit to Soma. Game 3-4: We know how that went Game 5: Bisu saved his zealots and you immediately see the major difference in defense. Bisu's huge mistake was building a robo and a templar archives. If Bisu skips robo, it leaves him gas for a faster templar archives into a faster DT. It also leaves him minerals for a crucial extra cannon. Then he invested in a shuttle instead of an extra cannon again. The double high tech is what ultimately killed him in that game. The DT that did major damage to Soma traveled by ground and proved that Bisu didn't need the shuttle to make the hold. Argue about cannons all you want, but there were many other factors that left Bisu too weak to win. Thanks for the analysis. I still don't understand why Mr 892 played to greedily in Game 4 by going for the DT drop tech. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 08 2020 13:43 kaspa84 wrote: I basically agree with everything Moopower said, except that Hydra nerfing would affect TvZ by making Vulture/Wraith early harassment better. Yeah, Bisu did make mistakes, but the whole point is that P margin for error is so much smaller than Zerg's. And the fact that game 5 was close doesn't change that fact, but is another evidence of it, since Soma made a huge blunder losing lots of drones to a DT (or maybe he even didnt care?) but Bisu only made small mistakes and lost anyway. I don't think you're getting it. The margin for error is super slim for Zerg too. We saw that in G3 when Soma went for a risky all-in which failed and then immediately GG'd. Either it works and we get people complaining that ZvP is unfair and impossible to play or it fails and everyone says "Wow, that Zerg player was an idiot." The truth is sharp timings are incredibly mercurial in nature because they are sharp. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
In the moment when Z is threatening P’s front door with hydras — when Z is first having the chance to pick off the gateway and forge and P is trying to decide how to defend — Z has options. Z can attack or expand or choose a middle-of-road approach. P has to match their defenses to a perfect degree. If P defends too much, they’ll never get onto the map and they’ll never take a third. If P defends too little, they’ll lose immediately. I’m not saying there’s no chance for P to win this game-within-a-game. There’s a happy medium where P is safe: not too safe, just barely safe. P can come out ahead if they defend to the perfect degree, I’m sure, and they can especially come out ahead if Z miscalculates and risks it all on an attack that goes poorly. But... in my totally anecdotal and personal viewing experience, P seems to miscalculate more often than Z in this moment. Somehow it seems like Z is holding more of the cards. When I’m cheering for the P, I’m thinking, OK, we could lose right now. When I’m cheering for the Z, I’m thinking, OK, this is all going according to plan. That’s not an opinion on overall matchup balance. Theoretically a matchup can be 50-50 even if certain circumstances favor one side over the other. But this is my impression over watching years of BW: there’s a moment in “standard” PvZ where P is sweating bullets and having a hard time scouting, and Z is fine and can check the cannon count pretty easily by sacrificing one zergling. And it’s hard for P to counterattack while the pressure is on — sure, Soma’s loss of all drones at his main in game 5 was an understandable error and an example of a good counterattack by Bisu, but it was also unforced and avoidable. Overall it’s hard to shake the impression that there’s a burden on P not to lose, whereas Z can dictate the pace. If everyone played perfectly, the burden to keep pace and respond correctly wouldn’t be a burden. To me the “hard” matchups in BW (PvZ, ZvT, TvP) come down to that: There are times when one side has a disproportionate burden to not lose, the other side can set the pace, and nobody can respond perfectly all the time. Except Flash. And Flash is why there are only two “hard” matchups left. Edit: Some people have posted valuable PvZ insights in this thread. To any skilled players with more info to share, I’m all ears. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Still, the games were razor-thin close - Soma showed some nervy misplays, and Bisu had some lapses as well. So now I'm wondering - Did Soma over-estimate Bisu? Did Soma really have to resort to so many tricky plays (given Bisu's current form, not his peak and potential)? Should Soma have played safer from the start (or adjusted to safer builds midway upon realising his tricky builds aren't all that necessary to beat Bisu and may instead push Bisu into a corner to be more aggressive and unpredictable, hence forcing the entire series to be more coin-flippy?) Bear in mind that Bisu got tricky and cheesy as well throwing in a cannon rush, and the DT-shuttle in G5 was a brilliant but rather do-or-die strat (the investment lessens cannons at home). So both players were trying to find quick ways to end the games. It ended up scrappy, due to both sides. A brawl. A slug-fest. Which to me, seems rather odd when both players can equally play strong in the late-game (as opposed to a Bisu v Shine matchup). Yes, I suppose most ZvP usually turned out this way. But is this really how high-level PvZ between equally strong opponents look like? (Again, no disrespect to Soma and Bisu. Just genuine questions from a noob trying to appreciate the game and meta better!) | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 09 2020 08:54 Djabanete wrote: On the whole margin for error thing: From my standpoint as a long-time fan but not a good player, it does look like P has less margin for error than Z at a certain point in the game. In the moment when Z is threatening P’s front door with hydras — when Z is first having the chance to pick off the gateway and forge and P is trying to decide how to defend — Z has options. Z can attack or expand or choose a middle-of-road approach. P has to match their defenses to a perfect degree. If P defends too much, they’ll never get onto the map and they’ll never take a third. If P defends too little, they’ll lose immediately. I’m not saying there’s no chance for P to win this game-within-a-game. There’s a happy medium where P is safe: not too safe, just barely safe. P can come out ahead if they defend to the perfect degree, I’m sure, and they can especially come out ahead if Z miscalculates and risks it all on an attack that goes poorly. But... in my totally anecdotal and personal viewing experience, P seems to miscalculate more often than Z in this moment. Somehow it seems like Z is holding more of the cards. When I’m cheering for the P, I’m thinking, OK, we could lose right now. When I’m cheering for the Z, I’m thinking, OK, this is all going according to plan. That’s not an opinion on overall matchup balance. Theoretically a matchup can be 50-50 even if certain circumstances favor one side over the other. But this is my impression over watching years of BW: there’s a moment in “standard” PvZ where P is sweating bullets and having a hard time scouting, and Z is fine and can check the cannon count pretty easily by sacrificing one zergling. And it’s hard for P to counterattack while the pressure is on — sure, Soma’s loss of all drones at his main in game 5 was an understandable error and an example of a good counterattack by Bisu, but it was also unforced and avoidable. Overall it’s hard to shake the impression that there’s a burden on P not to lose, whereas Z can dictate the pace. If everyone played perfectly, the burden to keep pace and respond correctly wouldn’t be a burden. To me the “hard” matchups in BW (PvZ, ZvT, TvP) come down to that: There are times when one side has a disproportionate burden to not lose, the other side can set the pace, and nobody can respond perfectly all the time. Except Flash. And Flash is why there are only two “hard” matchups left. Edit: Some people have posted valuable PvZ insights in this thread. To any skilled players with more info to share, I’m all ears. Yes, this perfectly sums up my anecdotal perspective of PvZ as well, which makes me empathise with Protoss more. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
There’s always an incentive for the less secure player to make risky moves. There’s always a need for even the most excellent and secure player to mix in risky moves, so as not to become predictable. And in high-stakes matches, it’s always advantageous to practice and use unexpected strategies. If you take your opponent onto terrain that’s known to you and unfamiliar to them, not only do you have an edge, but the edge is maximized if the opponent is nervous and becomes flustered because of the stakes. Or if you think you’re the one who might get nervous, it’s equally useful to force the match to occur on specific terrain you’ve prepared for. That’s the opposite of doing a “safe” build, which enables you to adapt to to most challenges if you can think on your feet. So whether you’re stronger or weaker, there are a lot of reasons to take risks. Edit: Also, when you think of a player with a high win rate like Bisu, it’s tempting to think they can “just do what they always do” to win, but the truth is that they take risks like everyone else and the win rate is a product of correct calculations and good execution. A 70% win rate (for example) is a 70% win rate *with* risks included, not proof that risks don’t need to be taken. | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On April 09 2020 09:06 RKC wrote: It's fairly likely that Soma's overall strat was "don't let Bisu go late-game, kill Bisu whenever a window of opportunity opens". Which Soma executed quite well, considering some of his builds may have been adapted on the fly (e.g. going double expo after gaining some favourable early trades). Still, the games were razor-thin close - Soma showed some nervy misplays, and Bisu had some lapses as well. So now I'm wondering - Did Soma over-estimate Bisu? Did Soma really have to resort to so many tricky plays (given Bisu's current form, not his peak and potential)? Should Soma have played safer from the start (or adjusted to safer builds midway upon realising his tricky builds aren't all that necessary to beat Bisu and may instead push Bisu into a corner to be more aggressive and unpredictable, hence forcing the entire series to be more coin-flippy?) Bear in mind that Bisu got tricky and cheesy as well throwing in a cannon rush, and the DT-shuttle in G5 was a brilliant but rather do-or-die strat (the investment lessens cannons at home). So both players were trying to find quick ways to end the games. It ended up scrappy, due to both sides. A brawl. A slug-fest. Which to me, seems rather odd when both players can equally play strong in the late-game (as opposed to a Bisu v Shine matchup). Yes, I suppose most ZvP usually turned out this way. But is this really how high-level PvZ between equally strong opponents look like? (Again, no disrespect to Soma and Bisu. Just genuine questions from a noob trying to appreciate the game and meta better!) Don't think the strat is ever - "don't let Bisu go late-game". They're just strategical moves..... Remember when Flash 3-0'ed Stork in an OSL finals by cheesing every game although he had just won against Stork in MSL just few weeks before? Is it because Flash was afraid of going late-game against Stork? No. Its a Real Time "Strategy" game. You have a strategy to put your opponent off guard and put them out of their comfort zone, you do that and u screw up their normal game..... that's how bw works. So it ends up with, who was able to produce and execute the strategies they prepared for before the games.... | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
On April 09 2020 08:15 EsportsJohn wrote: I don't think you're getting it. The margin for error is super slim for Zerg too. We saw that in G3 when Soma went for a risky all-in which failed and then immediately GG'd. Either it works and we get people complaining that ZvP is unfair and impossible to play or it fails and everyone says "Wow, that Zerg player was an idiot." The truth is sharp timings are incredibly mercurial in nature because they are sharp. No, Game 3 when Soma went for an all in type build, that was a high risk high reward play. 3 Hatch hydra in particular is where I'm saying there's relatively low risk high reward. If your all in build gets scouted you should be expected to lose or at least be in a huge disadvantage. We don't see much of a margin of opportunity for Protoss to scout 3 hatch hydra busts in time consistently where the Zerg zones out probe/zealot scouts perfectly. 3 hatch hydra isn't an all -in type of build anymore like it used to be because of how precise zerg progamers have been with droning and sniping cannons quickly and forcing protoss to sacrifice probes just to defend. Game 5 where it was pretty close, was due to a blunder by soma. He did not anticipate dt drop and let bisu massacre his drones. That's why it was closer than it should've been. However I will say if Bisu decided to play it safer and just defend the hydra bust by getting storm instead of spreading himself too thin with both robo and templar tech, the game would've been different. Bisu made some crucial mistakes that cost him the game ultimately but that's not the point. The argument is the margin of error on the Protoss side is small and disadvantaged in PvZ. I don't see any TvZ game where having hydra upgrades researched a few seconds later would've made a huge difference against mech strategies. There aren't vulture harassments that can be abused if hydras don't get ranged atk or speed faster because of sim city. So having hydra upgrades taking a little bit longer would not affect any other match up other than PvZ. By the time Zerg in ZvT against mech gets OL speed, having hydra upgrade take slightly longer would not affect moving out on the map at all. Also for arguments saying that Protoss should hide probes around the map to sneak a scout in, is basically saying you're hoping the Zerg plays inoptimally or has to make a mistake for Protoss to get a chance. If they are determined to deny your probe/zealot scouting, a high caliber zerg will not let you see their hydras until it is time. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, speedlings are so much faster than probes/zealots that the margin for zerg to find your scouting probe is very large and they can catch up fast enough to deny. A watchful zerg would've seen you try to sneak out probes from your natural anyways and would be on the lookout for the missing probe. We saw this before in KSL I think season 2 or 3. It was Rain vs JD. Rain was trying to push out with some zealots to try to get some scouting intel. The critical mistake that Rain did in that game was that he left his cannon wall open and didn't plug in with probes to replace after the zealots left. Rain didn't anticipate a large speedling group to sneak back but it cost him the game because by the time he warped in new cannons the speedlings bought JD enough time for his hydras to do serious economic dmg so even Rain held barely he was severely behind. And even if Rain used his zealots to try to scout and blocked wall with probes, if JD decided to mop up those 5-6 zealots moving out on the map he could've done so easily or Rain would've had to back off and retreat and be denied any scouting intel. Until +1 atk, or splash dmg with a better army composition, zealots trade inefficiently against cheap zerglings. Which is why Protoss scouting options are limited until corsair. Zerg has a lot of choices while Protoss has a critical lack of intel that often cost them games. Terran units all have range so they will always be able to defend normally even if caught off guard initially. But Protoss units don't, dragoons suck vs every zerg unit unless supported by a good mix of zealots and hts. Corsairs don't come fast enough to scout zerg if Protoss opens zealot pressure. There are so many holes in Protoss's arsenal that can be abused by zerg because they need time to tech up for obs, against lurkers, or cannons in main and sairs against muta play or cannons at the front against hydra bust. I'm not saying anything other than hydra busting is hard to stop because unlike hydra busts, they are all high risk/ high reward strategies. Meaning if Protoss defends successfully, they are significantly ahead. 3 hatch hydra is the only build in my opinion that can be between an all in build and a transition into a long macro game depending on how much Zerg forced Protoss to spend on cannons and sacrificing probes. Should Protoss players be punished for a small micro mistake where their 1st few zealots took one too many hits that they are denied scouting and map control until they get up to corsair and risk losing to a hydra bust? This is the slim margin of error of Protoss. They have to play near perfectly in order to have a chance if Zerg is determined to play mind games with hydra busting. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 09 2020 08:54 Djabanete wrote: On the whole margin for error thing: From my standpoint as a long-time fan but not a good player, it does look like P has less margin for error than Z at a certain point in the game. In the moment when Z is threatening P’s front door with hydras — when Z is first having the chance to pick off the gateway and forge and P is trying to decide how to defend — Z has options. Z can attack or expand or choose a middle-of-road approach. P has to match their defenses to a perfect degree. If P defends too much, they’ll never get onto the map and they’ll never take a third. If P defends too little, they’ll lose immediately. I’m not saying there’s no chance for P to win this game-within-a-game. There’s a happy medium where P is safe: not too safe, just barely safe. P can come out ahead if they defend to the perfect degree, I’m sure, and they can especially come out ahead if Z miscalculates and risks it all on an attack that goes poorly. But... in my totally anecdotal and personal viewing experience, P seems to miscalculate more often than Z in this moment. Somehow it seems like Z is holding more of the cards. When I’m cheering for the P, I’m thinking, OK, we could lose right now. When I’m cheering for the Z, I’m thinking, OK, this is all going according to plan. That’s not an opinion on overall matchup balance. Theoretically a matchup can be 50-50 even if certain circumstances favor one side over the other. But this is my impression over watching years of BW: there’s a moment in “standard” PvZ where P is sweating bullets and having a hard time scouting, and Z is fine and can check the cannon count pretty easily by sacrificing one zergling. And it’s hard for P to counterattack while the pressure is on — sure, Soma’s loss of all drones at his main in game 5 was an understandable error and an example of a good counterattack by Bisu, but it was also unforced and avoidable. Overall it’s hard to shake the impression that there’s a burden on P not to lose, whereas Z can dictate the pace. If everyone played perfectly, the burden to keep pace and respond correctly wouldn’t be a burden. To me the “hard” matchups in BW (PvZ, ZvT, TvP) come down to that: There are times when one side has a disproportionate burden to not lose, the other side can set the pace, and nobody can respond perfectly all the time. Except Flash. And Flash is why there are only two “hard” matchups left. Edit: Some people have posted valuable PvZ insights in this thread. To any skilled players with more info to share, I’m all ears. This is what we call "burden of execution" in gaming theory. It means that, at that point in the game, in that game state, Zerg has the ability to force the Protoss player to play more precisely than them. This is similar to a Zerg defending a bunker rush with drones until lings can come out; in that scenario, every drone loss for the Zerg player is crucial, and if Terran manages to drop down a bunker and keep all their marines alive before lings come out, the Zerg player effectively loses. It's easier for the Terran to amove marines and block compared to drone drilling, carefully finding surrounds, and clicking injured drones back to minerals on a different screen. If Zerg defends it, Terran is behind and suddenly the burden of execution has shifted to them to play catch up. Protoss has ways to shift the burden of execution back toward Zerg. There have been aggro gate openings, sair/DT, sair/speedlot, weird double stargate builds, reaver openings. All of them force the burden of execution back onto the Zerg by forcing them to build precise wall offs, spend their larva properly, and move their units to the proper places to defend while having basically 0 vision out on the map. If Zerg doesn't protect their overlords correctly, corsairs alone can end the game. I think it's important to note that in both of these scenarios, the outcome is based on skill. If doing a hydra bust was a blanket 50/50 chance to win between players of a similar skill level who are both playing optimally (aka not greedy), then it would be a problem. It's true that while Zerg has map control, they have more flexibility to tech into whatever they want and/or expand (compared to Protoss, who is more or less locked into whatever tech they chose and now can either add gates or expand) BUT...that's the whole point of the race, dude. Larva economy is designed to make Zerg more flexible in how they spend their money into tech and army. The downside to these attacks is that they can't lose their original units while pressuring if they want to play a macro game behind it. The major concern for the Zerg here is lack of larva to catch up in economy (drones) vs replenish your army. Zerg players have gotten much better at retaining their aggro units and delaying intelligently while they catch up in economy and tech so that they have the larva to spend on army again. It looks easy because it's being done so well. The only reason we're talking about this is because the meta has shifted back toward aggressive Zerg openings. Back when gate expands where first becoming common, Zergs were dropping left and right to zealot harass which placed the burden of execution on the Zerg player to micro their lings perfectly and prevent the zealots from wedging themselves into good corners. Every time hydra busts become common again, we have the same discussion, and every time it happens, Protoss players find an answer for it. When the 9734 build came around a few months ago, we did the same thing. When Protoss players are winning again, the Z imbalance whine will die down. And then we'll do this again the next time hydra busts come around. P.S. I know LS is not a popular name in this community, but his general insight into how game stages flow into one another is really valuable. Though he bases his opinions on perfect, optimal play, the way he describes the "burden of execution" in LoL games is intelligent and keeps viewers on track with what we should expect each player to do given the current play state. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 09 2020 12:24 Moopower wrote: No, Game 3 when Soma went for an all in type build, that was a high risk high reward play. 3 Hatch hydra in particular is where I'm saying there's relatively low risk high reward. If your all in build gets scouted you should be expected to lose or at least be in a huge disadvantage. We don't see much of a margin of opportunity for Protoss to scout 3 hatch hydra busts in time consistently where the Zerg zones out probe/zealot scouts perfectly. 3 hatch hydra isn't an all -in type of build anymore like it used to be because of how precise zerg progamers have been with droning and sniping cannons quickly and forcing protoss to sacrifice probes just to defend. Game 5 where it was pretty close, was due to a blunder by soma. He did not anticipate dt drop and let bisu massacre his drones. That's why it was closer than it should've been. However I will say if Bisu decided to play it safer and just defend the hydra bust by getting storm instead of spreading himself too thin with both robo and templar tech, the game would've been different. Bisu made some crucial mistakes that cost him the game ultimately but that's not the point. The argument is the margin of error on the Protoss side is small and disadvantaged in PvZ. I don't see any TvZ game where having hydra upgrades researched a few seconds later would've made a huge difference against mech strategies. There aren't vulture harassments that can be abused if hydras don't get ranged atk or speed faster because of sim city. So having hydra upgrades taking a little bit longer would not affect any other match up other than PvZ. By the time Zerg in ZvT against mech gets OL speed, having hydra upgrade take slightly longer would not affect moving out on the map at all. Also for arguments saying that Protoss should hide probes around the map to sneak a scout in, is basically saying you're hoping the Zerg plays inoptimally or has to make a mistake for Protoss to get a chance. If they are determined to deny your probe/zealot scouting, a high caliber zerg will not let you see their hydras until it is time. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, speedlings are so much faster than probes/zealots that the margin for zerg to find your scouting probe is very large and they can catch up fast enough to deny. A watchful zerg would've seen you try to sneak out probes from your natural anyways and would be on the lookout for the missing probe. We saw this before in KSL I think season 2 or 3. It was Rain vs JD. Rain was trying to push out with some zealots to try to get some scouting intel. The critical mistake that Rain did in that game was that he left his cannon wall open and didn't plug in with probes to replace after the zealots left. Rain didn't anticipate a large speedling group to sneak back but it cost him the game because by the time he warped in new cannons the speedlings bought JD enough time for his hydras to do serious economic dmg so even Rain held barely he was severely behind. And even if Rain used his zealots to try to scout and blocked wall with probes, if JD decided to mop up those 5-6 zealots moving out on the map he could've done so easily or Rain would've had to back off and retreat and be denied any scouting intel. Until +1 atk, or splash dmg with a better army composition, zealots trade inefficiently against cheap zerglings. Which is why Protoss scouting options are limited until corsair. Zerg has a lot of choices while Protoss has a critical lack of intel that often cost them games. Terran units all have range so they will always be able to defend normally even if caught off guard initially. But Protoss units don't, dragoons suck vs every zerg unit unless supported by a good mix of zealots and hts. Corsairs don't come fast enough to scout zerg if Protoss opens zealot pressure. There are so many holes in Protoss's arsenal that can be abused by zerg because they need time to tech up for obs, against lurkers, or cannons in main and sairs against muta play or cannons at the front against hydra bust. I'm not saying anything other than hydra busting is hard to stop because unlike hydra busts, they are all high risk/ high reward strategies. Meaning if Protoss defends successfully, they are significantly ahead. 3 hatch hydra is the only build in my opinion that can be between an all in build and a transition into a long macro game depending on how much Zerg forced Protoss to spend on cannons and sacrificing probes. Let's just say I disagree. Remember when 1-1-1 was an all-in build? Should Protoss players be punished for a small micro mistake where their 1st few zealots took one too many hits that they are denied scouting and map control until they get up to corsair and risk losing to a hydra bust? This is the slim margin of error of Protoss. They have to play near perfectly in order to have a chance if Zerg is determined to play mind games with hydra busting. This is wayyyyy over-exaggerated. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On April 09 2020 09:12 RKC wrote: Yes, this perfectly sums up my anecdotal perspective of PvZ as well, which makes me empathise with Protoss more. Mine as well. | ||
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
My anecdotal Zerg experience is totally different. If you invest in hydras and upgrades, you're going to be way behind on workers. If you don't deal massive damage, you are behind. There is no: make lots of hydras before first corsair and then do nothing and drone up to an equal economy. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 09 2020 20:07 Sr18 wrote: My anecdotal Zerg experience is totally different. If you invest in hydras and upgrades, you're going to be way behind on workers. If you don't deal massive damage, you are behind. There is no: make lots of hydras before first corsair and then do nothing and drone up to an equal economy. This is kinda what Soma did in game 1 with 9734, but Bisu died to the initial hydra pressure anyway | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
On April 09 2020 20:07 Sr18 wrote: My anecdotal Zerg experience is totally different. If you invest in hydras and upgrades, you're going to be way behind on workers. If you don't deal massive damage, you are behind. There is no: make lots of hydras before first corsair and then do nothing and drone up to an equal economy. This was maybe true before the 9734 build was popularized. Even if you as Zerg put so many larva and resources into hydras and upgrades, if you see the protoss make a lot of cannons so a hydra bust is to risky to try you can start to drone up because Protoss won't be able to push out fast enough to punish you since they put so much minerals into cannons and not gateways. The hydras you built and upgrades is enough to defend against what protoss can push out with. Of course I am oversimplifying the game a lot here, but saying there is no "make lots of hydras before first corsair and then do nothing and drone up to an equal economy" is weird when that is pretty much what the 9734 build is about. If they don't build enough cannons, bust it. If they do build enough cannons, drone up. There is a lot more to it of course, but I think you are just flat out wrong. EDIT: And to add a comment about balance, how the meta shifts and depending on maps etc. I don't see a balance problem per se, but Zerg is a tricky and narrow matchup for protoss. Especially since cracklings and dark swarm makes the lategame something you want to avoid as well. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 09 2020 20:40 Barneyk wrote: This was maybe true before the 9734 build was popularized. Even if you as Zerg put so many larva and resources into hydras and upgrades, if you see the protoss make a lot of cannons so a hydra bust is to risky to try you can start to drone up because Protoss won't be able to push out fast enough to punish you since they put so much minerals into cannons and not gateways. The hydras you built and upgrades is enough to defend against what protoss can push out with. Of course I am oversimplifying the game a lot here, but saying there is no "make lots of hydras before first corsair and then do nothing and drone up to an equal economy" is weird when that is pretty much what the 9734 build is about. If they don't build enough cannons, bust it. If they do build enough cannons, drone up. There is a lot more to it of course, but I think you are just flat out wrong. EDIT: And to add a comment about balance, how the meta shifts and depending on maps etc. I don't see a balance problem per se, but Zerg is a tricky and narrow matchup for protoss. Especially since cracklings and dark swarm makes the lategame something you want to avoid as well. Please forgive my noobness... But what the hell is the 9734 build?!? (Surely the build must have a cooler nickname ) | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 09 2020 21:27 RKC wrote: Please forgive my noobness... But what the hell is the 9734 build?!? (Surely the build must have a cooler nickname )Not entirely sure what all the numbers refer to, but it's basically a fake 3-hatch hydra bust where you make only enough hydras to pressure the front and kill off the gateway/forge while droning up and taking a 4th base. It's a difficult build for Protoss to deal with because they have to take the hydra threat seriously and they can't get much scouting info except for corsair scouts. It shuts down a lot of P tech builds like sair/DT and forces them to play heavy 2-base with a lot of gateways. The downside is that Zerg doesn't have a lot of extra larva to work with until they get up to 5 hatches, so really aggressive options like sair/speedlot or goon/reaver timings can work exceptionally well. If Zerg loses that first set of hydras for free, they basically have 0 pressure on the Protoss. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
9 drones at the main 7 drones at the natural 3 drones at the third Take a 4th If you don't take a 4th it's just the 973 build | ||
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vndestiny
Singapore3440 Posts
On April 09 2020 23:06 EsportsJohn wrote: Not entirely sure what all the numbers refer to It's the drone count at main, nat, 3rd (& 4th) before massing Hydra. And I'm glad for this build. The days of taking 3rd at another nat then die to speedlot archon push was not very fun as Zerg player. Also the Protoss race is flexible af so I'm sure they'll come up with something in a couple of months. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On April 09 2020 20:40 Barneyk wrote: This was maybe true before the 9734 build was popularized. Even if you as Zerg put so many larva and resources into hydras and upgrades, if you see the protoss make a lot of cannons so a hydra bust is to risky to try you can start to drone up because Protoss won't be able to push out fast enough to punish you since they put so much minerals into cannons and not gateways. The hydras you built and upgrades is enough to defend against what protoss can push out with. Of course I am oversimplifying the game a lot here, but saying there is no "make lots of hydras before first corsair and then do nothing and drone up to an equal economy" is weird when that is pretty much what the 9734 build is about. If they don't build enough cannons, bust it. If they do build enough cannons, drone up. There is a lot more to it of course, but I think you are just flat out wrong. EDIT: And to add a comment about balance, how the meta shifts and depending on maps etc. I don't see a balance problem per se, but Zerg is a tricky and narrow matchup for protoss. Especially since cracklings and dark swarm makes the lategame something you want to avoid as well. This. The most that P can get from the situation is a chance to win, which, depending on the flow of the game, can be above, but also below 50%. The worst that can happen to P is instant loss. P doesn't have depth at this point of the game for a meta shift - the only way to defend against hydras is cannons; and cannon number cannot be hidden while hydras or their numbers can be hidden. Forge FE doesn't provide many options to counter this, while 1base builds or proxy gates have a small window to succeed vZ. I don't agree, however, with delaying hydra upgrades as a solution. A slightly faster cannon warp-in could affect the balance even less and work quite well. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4773 Posts
You basically have 3 zealots and 2 cannons on 2 base when you could have like 5 goons and 6 zealots on 1 base. And you could have that comp earlier because your gateway count is higher earlier. It's just the choice of strategies that puts the pressure to "out-play" on the P. Just that simple. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
On April 10 2020 01:21 Uldridge wrote: This entire discussion is based on the fact that P opts into having the pressure put on him because he plays this strategy. He gives himself as much of an economic edge as possible with the forge expand. Shoud he go 1 base 3 gate goon with legs behind it or something he'd put the pressure on Z. You basically have 3 zealots and 2 cannons on 2 base when you could have like 5 goons and 6 zealots on 1 base. And you could have that comp earlier because your gateway count is higher earlier. It's just the choice of strategies that puts the pressure to "out-play" on the P. Just that simple. Skipping cannons makes you very vulnerable to lings running around your base and potentially costing you lost workers. Skipping a nexus could be plausible, but is there really another build that can keep lings from harassing besides cannons? Overpool seems like it would wreck a one base meta. I'm definitely open to the idea of one base if there was a viable ling defensive build order. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 10 2020 04:33 BisuDagger wrote: Skipping cannons makes you very vulnerable to lings running around your base and potentially costing you lost workers. Skipping a nexus could be plausible, but is there really another build that can keep lings from harassing besides cannons? Overpool seems like it would wreck a one base meta. I'm definitely open to the idea of one base if there was a viable ling defensive build order. There is. It's called putting 2 zealots on hold on a ramp after your army moves out, thus preventing any runbys in the first place I tend to agree with the idea that there are options. I remember when Bisu went 1 base against hero on Sniper Ridge years ago and ended up winning with good decisions overall. Protoss players have gotten so used to going forge FE or gate FE that one basing will probably feel like new territory to a few in PvZ. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4773 Posts
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ppp87
Laos250 Posts
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MooPower92
8 Posts
On April 10 2020 01:08 Rainalcar wrote: This. The most that P can get from the situation is a chance to win, which, depending on the flow of the game, can be above, but also below 50%. The worst that can happen to P is instant loss. P doesn't have depth at this point of the game for a meta shift - the only way to defend against hydras is cannons; and cannon number cannot be hidden while hydras or their numbers can be hidden. Forge FE doesn't provide many options to counter this, while 1base builds or proxy gates have a small window to succeed vZ. I don't agree, however, with delaying hydra upgrades as a solution. A slightly faster cannon warp-in could affect the balance even less and work quite well. Faster cannon warping would definitely affect more match ups than slightly delayed hydra upgrades. It would potentially change pvp openers/builds, more cheese cannon rush vs Zerg behind mineral line. There’s no other match up where hydra upgrades would affect as much as giving Protoss just a few more precious seconds to prepare. In ZvT there isn’t some timing vulture harassment that would be abused if hydras weren’t upgraded or Zerg not being able to take map control sooner if their hydras weren’t upgraded yet because you usually wait for OL speed and even then hydras have about the same range as a vulture without upgrades. And Zerg has sim city to wall off vulture harass anyways. Also with one base openers they can be mixed in a bo5 match just to mix things up but I think pro gamers generally agree one base play is always going to be subpar vs FE builds. The ratio of economy is just vastly different with 1 base toss back 2 base Zerg vs 2 base toss and 3 base Zerg. Not to mention Protoss units can only trade efficiently when they have splash damage units or higher upgrades which takes a lot of gas. Something one base play can’t afford to spread out so thin while also trying to build corsairs. The times where one base play works is when Zerg plays inoptimally or didn’t scout what Protoss was doing properly. Basically it’s zergs game to lose if they didn’t play to their best potential. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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MooPower92
8 Posts
On April 09 2020 14:56 EsportsJohn wrote: Let's just say I disagree. Remember when 1-1-1 was an all-in build? This is wayyyyy over-exaggerated. 1-1-1 was figured out within a year, 3 hatch hydra busts have always been an easy way to take out Protoss relative to other strategies. Again I’m not saying 3 hatch hydra is impossible to defend but on a margin scale it’s definitely not as fair for the Protoss compared to Zergs reaction to 1-1-1 or any other historical meta shifts. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1031 Posts
One of the reasons protoss FE is that they secure the only path to their 2 bases early. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4773 Posts
Does a reaver die faster than a cannon? | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 10 2020 07:16 ppp87 wrote: Can someone post the soma's afreeca stream url please, I cant find it by myself, thanks. play.afreecatv.com/thakzkf When he streams you can see him on the list of live streams. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
Faster cannon warping would definitely affect more match ups than slightly delayed hydra upgrades. It would potentially change pvp openers/builds, more cheese cannon rush vs Zerg behind mineral line. There’s no other match up where hydra upgrades would affect as much as giving Protoss just a few more precious seconds to prepare. In ZvT there isn’t some timing vulture harassment that would be abused if hydras weren’t upgraded or Zerg not being able to take map control sooner if their hydras weren’t upgraded yet because you usually wait for OL speed and even then hydras have about the same range as a vulture without upgrades. And Zerg has sim city to wall off vulture harass anyways. How do you think PvP would change? What comes to mind is some DT timings and scrambling defense vs Dragoons. As far as I am concerned, I could live with both, I don't mind actually. vZ yes, there will be more chance to pull of a cannon rush, but Z definitely can play against this and it is very map dependent. Hydra upgrades also don't affect things much, true. Perhaps slightly in hydra breaks vT. But I would rather the weaker race helped as long as the change doesn't affect at all the other non-mirror matchup, and PvT is practically not affected at all. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
On April 10 2020 22:49 Rainalcar wrote: How do you think PvP would change? What comes to mind is some DT timings and scrambling defense vs Dragoons. As far as I am concerned, I could live with both, I don't mind actually. vZ yes, there will be more chance to pull of a cannon rush, but Z definitely can play against this and it is very map dependent. Hydra upgrades also don't affect things much, true. Perhaps slightly in hydra breaks vT. But I would rather the weaker race helped as long as the change doesn't affect at all the other non-mirror matchup, and PvT is practically not affected at all. Changing anything about the cannon would be too dangerous in its effect on the game. However, if we had to choose a way to change cannons, how about cannons start with their shields at 50/100 so that it fills up to 100/100 shields before health maxes out, but finishes constructing at the same set time. This would obviously strengthen cannon rushes, but would greatly help defense. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2394 Posts
Can we get this kind of activity on all the LR threads again? | ||
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TornadoSteve
1031 Posts
I loved how rain prepared a super fast nexus in his first game vs sacsri in ASL 8 ro8. It was just brillant and completely catched the zerg off guard. I think it is relevant that the few protoss who had success against zergs in the history of brood war were those who were applying pressure early games instead of an economy build (Bisu, nal_rA, mini...) and macro oriented protoss did struggle more with the match up (Stork, Best...) Also, can someone elaborate on why FE+2 gates in the wall (or 1 in wall + 1 in main if the map doesnt allow you to build a good wall against lings runby) going for more zealots early pressure isnt more used at the pro level? I would like to see a game of this build used properly, aka priorizing zeals and making probes for only 1 nexus for a while, etc | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On April 11 2020 00:14 BisuDagger wrote: Changing anything about the cannon would be too dangerous in its effect on the game. However, if we had to choose a way to change cannons, how about cannons start with their shields at 50/100 so that it fills up to 100/100 shields before health maxes out, but finishes constructing at the same set time. This would obviously strengthen cannon rushes, but would greatly help defense. The issue is still the inability to scout vZ. If cannons never finish, they will be sniped in seconds. But I guess it is also a thing to consider. | ||
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ppp87
Laos250 Posts
On April 10 2020 20:47 Dangermousecatdog wrote: play.afreecatv.com/thakzkf When he streams you can see him on the list of live streams.  | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On April 10 2020 19:15 Uldridge wrote: If Protoss needs to get ahead from one base he should go 3 gate robo (obs -> reaver) then get the expansion with your first reaver while it shoots lurkers (this is the most likely contain to face imo) from the ramp, edging down, while playing the micro minigame of keeping your ramp blocked. I'm sure you can keep pumping reavers and while they're super vulnerable if you have a decent meat shield of zealots you can mount a massive defense with 2/3 early reavers defending.. much better than cannons could imo. Does a reaver die faster than a cannon? I would love to see experimentation of the kind you describe and I would love to see it be successful. That being said, if P is on one base and Z is on two, Z can afford more tech than P. Sure, corsairs can fight mutas and reaver/obs can fight lurkers. But does P really have enough gas to make corsairs and reavers and observers? Also, if you don’t make shuttles, reavers can never apply pressure, so if two-base Z contains P on one base for just a little while, they can grow to three-base Z. Now you’re making shuttles, reavers, and observers... can you do it on a single robo fac? I suspect that your proposed opening has too many bottlenecks that can be exploited. Without cannons, one-Stargate corsairs are overwhelmed by muta/scourge. Without a second robo fac, losing a single shuttle or obs will be a devastating setback. And on one base, how can you produce from more than one stargate plus one robo fac? Basically it comes down to what someone already said: One base against two is a worse ratio than two bases against three. So the few one-base P games I’ve seen aren’t about using high-tech units to defend a late natural, but rather about using high-tech units to deliver a crippling blow at the right timing. @TornadoSteve: That’s another plausible idea. Alternatively, I wonder if a focus on goon production, coupled with outrageous goon micro, could be viable. Cadenzie recently played a Bo5 against a BW bot (Locutus) and lost both games in which the bot started amassing a goon ball. In one game she had nearly busted the P natural, but enough goons were hovering behind the nexus to protect it and mount a counterattack. I don’t know if the bot’s micro was unattainably good, but goons prevailed over hydras even though the bot’s decision making was poor. So could there be a build where P just micromanages like crazy and occasionally presses 1d2d3d4d? | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 11 2020 08:35 Djabanete wrote: I would love to see experimentation of the kind you describe and I would love to see it be successful. That being said, if P is on one base and Z is on two, Z can afford more tech than P. Sure, corsairs can fight mutas and reaver/obs can fight lurkers. But does P really have enough gas to make corsairs and reavers and observers? Also, if you don’t make shuttles, reavers can never apply pressure, so if two-base Z contains P on one base for just a little while, they can grow to three-base Z. Now you’re making shuttles, reavers, and observers... can you do it on a single robo fac? I suspect that your proposed opening has too many bottlenecks that can be exploited. Without cannons, one-Stargate corsairs are overwhelmed by muta/scourge. Without a second robo fac, losing a single shuttle or obs will be a devastating setback. And on one base, how can you produce from more than one stargate plus one robo fac? Basically it comes down to what someone already said: One base against two is a worse ratio than two bases against three. So the few one-base P games I’ve seen aren’t about using high-tech units to defend a late natural, but rather about using high-tech units to deliver a crippling blow at the right timing. @TornadoSteve: That’s another plausible idea. Alternatively, I wonder if a focus on goon production, coupled with outrageous goon micro, could be viable. Cadenzie recently played a Bo5 against a BW bot (Locutus) and lost both games in which the bot started amassing a goon ball. In one game she had nearly busted the P natural, but enough goons were hovering behind the nexus to protect it and mount a counterattack. I don’t know if the bot’s micro was unattainably good, but goons prevailed over hydras even though the bot’s decision making was poor. So could there be a build where P just micromanages like crazy and occasionally presses 1d2d3d4d? Yes, 1-basing as Protoss just allows Z too much room to tech up faster and macro up. The general idea of 1-basing is to mount a timing attack early-game that can end the game, kill the opponent's expo, or harass so well for you to expand behind and overtake your opponent's early economic lead (e.g. TvZ). Any 1-base build to defend a 2-base build - that's frankly quite sad... So the question is whether there is any viable way for a 1-base Protoss to apply maximum pressure on the Zerg to expand behind and build a lead? And going back to Protoss FE builds, what are the pros and cons between gate and forge first? | ||
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pjold
1 Post
On April 10 2020 01:21 Uldridge wrote: This entire discussion is based on the fact that P opts into having the pressure put on him because he plays this strategy. He gives himself as much of an economic edge as possible with the forge expand. Shoud he go 1 base 3 gate goon with legs behind it or something he'd put the pressure on Z. You basically have 3 zealots and 2 cannons on 2 base when you could have like 5 goons and 6 zealots on 1 base. And you could have that comp earlier because your gateway count is higher earlier. It's just the choice of strategies that puts the pressure to "out-play" on the P. Just that simple. I would love some replays of this in action. However, you will find protoss dies to mutalisks. What do you do with 5 goons 6 zealots? I don't mean to be rude but you throw out that it's 'that simple' when it's something tried many times by highly skilled players and found unplayable outside of as a mix up strategy. I would love to be proven wrong with an awesome meta shake up but I'll need more than a paragraph proclaiming it simple. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
On April 11 2020 23:41 pjold wrote: I would love some replays of this in action. However, you will find protoss dies to mutalisks. What do you do with 5 goons 6 zealots? I don't mean to be rude but you throw out that it's 'that simple' when it's something tried many times by highly skilled players and found unplayable outside of as a mix up strategy. I would love to be proven wrong with an awesome meta shake up but I'll need more than a paragraph proclaiming it simple. I am always fascinated that we still have people talk about how you should "simply do X" in a game that is over 20 years old. How does one even begin to explain all the reasons to why that simple idea isn't as simple as they say? | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19239 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/JNAv4L8.png) | ||
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Cpt.beefy
Ireland799 Posts
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On April 29 2020 22:16 BisuDagger wrote: Looking through my old blogs, this cracked me up. I don't get the reference to this series... Would you please explain? | ||
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