EPT[ASL9] Ro8 Day 4 - Page 21
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GTR
51712 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 08 2020 06:07 GTR wrote: light vs soma is going to be a fucking amazing series. it's going to be up there with the likes of flash vs jaedong from asl2 and flash vs effort from asl 6 when all is said and done. Or Soma will fly 20 scourges into a command center again. | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
The last game was so tense, I was sweating bullets. Too bad bisu did not come through, I think building that robo+shuttle was a really bad decision, costed him precious additional cannons | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 08 2020 02:01 Xxio wrote: Would maelstrom ever work in that situation or against hydra bust in general? I'm probably wrong but imagine maelstrom on hydras when they dive on cannons. Seems good. It's 100 less minerals and 100 less gas to research than storm and about 10 seconds faster. DTs require more minerals and less gas than HT. More thoughts... DA have 3 more sight compared to HT (7 vs 10), have faster movement speed. The downside is that maelstrom requires 100 energy vs 75 (DA and HT both start with 50) and two DTs are +200 minerals and +50 gas over one HT. But including spell upgrade cost, one DA with maelstrom is +100 minerals and -50 gas than one HT with storm. Plus DTs can be used for other purposes. Maybe DA could be safer than HT for holding a push, and more dangerous for Z because their hydra army could be wiped (instead of storms which just keep them back). I think that the mileage you can get out of 2 DTs in the moment is greater than the power of a later DA ability. The only time I see DA usage is when Best is playing against a more passive Zerg who opens mutas. Not saying it can't be done, just thinking of reasons why isn't. | ||
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3339 Posts
On April 08 2020 05:41 Plume wrote: ptsd from shine killing my protoss bois in starleague ;- ; and then completely getting steamrolled the next series by literally anyone | ||
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LocoBolon
Argentina247 Posts
We may have the best semi finals on a long time now, it's looking very very good | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Game 5 was exciting. The remaining matches should be excellent, only I fear that maybe Flash vs Light would be too lopsided. Hope I'm wrong about that as I think it's the most likely finals configuration. | ||
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Psionic Mango
1 Post
Soma won fair and square, get over it | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Still, I'm not convinced with the Soma hype just yet. People have been raving him as the next big Zerg bonjwa. But he played such a risky coin-flippy Shine-esque game against Bisu, barely scrapping 3-2 in a matchup slightly in favour of Zerg. Based on the hype, I was expecting him to beat Bisu, but in longer macro games (not like this, not like this...). So I was somewhat disappointed, in the end. If he's such a macro god, why he didn't play more straight-up games? In poker, the stronger player would lean more towards safe low-ball low-variance play (playing more hands, not over-betting too much, avoiding pre-flop all-ins, etc.). But Soma choose to play risky builds that would put him in a great disadvantage if scouted correctly (there was some discussion about 'outplay' in the previous pages - in my view, 'outplaying' means utterly dominating the other player in almost all aspects of a game e.g. Federer winning straight sets 6-3 against a rank 50 player in a Grand Slam). Also, a new player still struggling with nerves should be more inclined towards safer play. Risky play can be game-ending with a single mistake. And indeed, Soma showed some nerves and misplays (losing a bunch of scourges, slow reaction towards DT in his base). Look, I haven't seen much of Soma's games. Maybe his other matchups are better. Maybe he really respected Bisu's PvZ prowess and felt playing shorter games was more strategically sound. So my question goes more to Soma's mindset - was he confident that his 'bag of builds' was the best way to beat Bisu? was his approach to the game really the most optimal strategy? was he really playing to his strenghts? (Please don't mistake my post as criticising Soma at all. It's more to do about the hype and perception around him. I was under the impression he would be a solid all-round Zerg, but didn't get that from the games yesterday.) | ||
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Just_a_Moth
Canada1972 Posts
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On April 07 2020 23:31 BisuDagger wrote: Game 5: Bisu saved his zealots and you immediately see the major difference in defense. Bisu's huge mistake was building a robo and a templar archives. If Bisu skips robo, it leaves him gas for a faster templar archives into a faster DT. It also leaves him minerals for a crucial extra cannon. Then he invested in a shuttle instead of an extra cannon again. The double high tech is what ultimately killed him in that game. The DT that did major damage to Soma traveled by ground and proved that Bisu didn't need the shuttle to make the hold. This is kinda nonsense honestly. It's only because of Soma's "mistake" that the DT could do any damage to the bust. If stopping Hydrabust with a DT was actually viable then Zerg would be prepared with Overlords. You can't just make a slightly faster DT and rely on that to hold for you. Having a shuttle allowed him to deal real counterattack damage and was the thing closest to saving the game. You could clearly see that even though the bust stalled out multiple times Zerg was still gaining ground over time even with the economic damage from the shuttle. Stalling the beginning of the bust a little more with a DT isn't reliable and wouldn't do anything anyway. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 08 2020 10:06 Just_a_Moth wrote: I think in game 2 Soma was planning to play a macro game, but it turned that he was just able to go and kill Bisu. Generally, the idea behind greedy builds and ninja expos is mid-game dominance - build a superior army in sudden speed, bust your opponent or deny them from expanding. Of course, it's not wrong to play towards late-game - but that would allow the opponent to 'catch up' and level the playing field, thus defeating the whole idea of risking a greedy build that can get you killed in an instant (the more optimal strategy would be to play a safer macro game). | ||
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
On April 08 2020 09:44 RKC wrote: If he's such a macro god, why he didn't play more straight-up games? In poker, the stronger player would lean more towards safe low-ball low-variance play (playing more hands, not over-betting too much, avoiding pre-flop all-ins, etc.). But Soma choose to play risky builds that would put him in a great disadvantage if scouted correctly (there was some discussion about 'outplay' in the previous pages - in my view, 'outplaying' means utterly dominating the other player in almost all aspects of a game e.g. Federer winning straight sets 6-3 against a rank 50 player in a Grand Slam). Also, a new player still struggling with nerves should be more inclined towards safer play. Risky play can be game-ending with a single mistake. And indeed, Soma showed some nerves and misplays (losing a bunch of scourges, slow reaction towards DT in his base). Look, I haven't seen much of Soma's games. Maybe his other matchups are better. Maybe he really respected Bisu's PvZ prowess and felt playing shorter games was more strategically sound. So my question goes more to Soma's mindset - was he confident that his 'bag of builds' was the best way to beat Bisu? was his approach to the game really the most optimal strategy? was he really playing to his strenghts? (Please don't mistake my post as criticising Soma at all. It's more to do about the hype and perception around him. I was under the impression he would be a solid all-round Zerg, but didn't get that from the games yesterday.) You have an idealistic perspective around competition. No, not every poker player--or even most--would play small ball. Matter of fact, all the top players are known to be insanely aggressive, tricky, and unpredictable. Sounds a lot like Soma. Read your opponent. Soma played his opponent masterfully. I bet if he faced Best, you wouldn't see him play like that. No need. The goal is to win. Aggression is a perfectly viable strategy. I thought Soma played extremely well. It wasn't reckless risk. It was measured, carefully crafted risk. He was completely unpredictable. Soma has played a ton of long macro games with these pros. I think people need to get off the pride that comes with winning long macro games. Skill and creativity come in all different sizes. Just watch more Soma and stop relying on small sample sizes. I also don't think anyone is calling Soma the next bonjwa. People are just hopeful and excited for fresh blood. No need to strawman to prove your point. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 08 2020 09:20 Psionic Mango wrote: Man, the amount of salt on this thread from bisu fans is incredible lmao Soma won fair and square, get over it You know something's wrong when BisuDagger admits that Bisu made mistakes but 17 other fanboiis somehow can't get over it. | ||
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AF0x
United States59 Posts
Don't know why people are surprised/angry that Soma didn't play standard games... The style Bisu is strongest against... in a match that would determine ro4, thus prize money and seed into next ASL... Seriously, dude came prepared for every map (except for the cannon rush I guess) and his execution was incredibly tight against the best PvZ of all time, give the guy some credit. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19399 Posts
On April 08 2020 11:09 AF0x wrote: The protoss tears in this thread are deeeelicious, so happy for Soma getting ro4! Don't know why people are surprised/angry that Soma didn't play standard games... The style Bisu is strongest against... in a match that would determine ro4, thus prize money and seed into next ASL... Seriously, dude came prepared for every map (except for the cannon rush I guess) and his execution was incredibly tight against the best PvZ of all time, give the guy some credit. This. Bisu has a near 90% winrate in games where he establishes a third without losing probes due to harassment or rushes prior to getting that nexus. Letting Bisu get a third base is the biggest mistake any Zerg could make. Soma played to Bisu's weaknesses which we have an ample catalog of since the Sospa era. I actually feel like Rain is probably the best protoss to play against a player like Soma based on today's games. Rain rarely loses in the early game of PvZ, but then lacks the ability to close out the game. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 08 2020 10:57 GorillaPimp wrote: You have an idealistic perspective around competition. No, not every poker player--or even most--would play small ball. Matter of fact, all the top players are known to be insanely aggressive, tricky, and unpredictable. Sounds a lot like Soma. Read your opponent. Soma played his opponent masterfully. I bet if he faced Best, you wouldn't see him play like that. No need. The goal is to win. Aggression is a perfectly viable strategy. I thought Soma played extremely well. It wasn't reckless risk. It was measured, carefully crafted risk. He was completely unpredictable. Soma has played a ton of long macro games with these pros. I think people need to get off the pride that comes with winning long macro games. Skill and creativity come in all different sizes. Just watch more Soma and stop relying on small sample sizes. I also don't think anyone is calling Soma the next bonjwa. People are just hopeful and excited for fresh blood. No need to strawman to prove your point. I really don't wish to get into a fight, hence I don't want to respond directly (as much as I want to). But your last sentence says it all. Prove what point? I wasn't making a point. I was merely raising a question, an issue for discussion. The question marks were genuinely questions, not rhetorical propaganda. I've already made it expressly clear that I'm not dismissive of Soma's achievements and skills, just not convinced of his credentials as a favourite in the tournament (based on his mindset). Why do you remove the 'Zerg bonjwa' part of my original post? Clearly, I didn't mean to 'strawman' him as being greater than Flash and former greats, but contextually relate to his current hype as the upcoming best Zerg player. Why do you read everything literally and assume so much of my intentions? Look at my history of posts. I like to ask questions, to hear different viewpoints. I'm not an expert. I don't play the game anymore. I thought the BW community was more level-headed than SC2 (hence, one reason I cut down posting 'questions' there). Why must people doubt the bona fide of others so much? So disappointing to get shut down by 'shut up, play more games, watch more games' responses. It's almost as if posting is a privilege - that I shouldn't be posting anything if I haven't done my homework and passed some kind of test. I guess if that's the way TL works, I will just revert to lurking and not posting (I still do enjoy and appreciate the forums). | ||
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GTR
51712 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 08 2020 11:18 BisuDagger wrote: This. Bisu has a near 90% winrate in games where he establishes a third without losing probes due to harassment or rushes prior to getting that nexus. Letting Bisu get a third base is the biggest mistake any Zerg could make. Soma played to Bisu's weaknesses which we have an ample catalog of since the Sospa era. I actually feel like Rain is probably the best protoss to play against a player like Soma based on today's games. Rain rarely loses in the early game of PvZ, but then lacks the ability to close out the game. Would you say that such win-rate is because Bisu gets into the late-game by cutting corners and making aggressive harassment plays that slow down the Zerg? Meaning to say, Bisu's late-game superiority is down to a risky strat as well (hence, his win-rate of 90% is rather deceiving and should be reduced by the fact that he only, say, has a 50-60% chance to get into that favourable position)? | ||
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Highways
Australia6124 Posts
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