You basically have 3 zealots and 2 cannons on 2 base when you could have like 5 goons and 6 zealots on 1 base. And you could have that comp earlier because your gateway count is higher earlier. It's just the choice of strategies that puts the pressure to "out-play" on the P. Just that simple.
[ASL9] Ro8 Day 4 - Page 24
Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
Uldridge
Belgium4244 Posts
You basically have 3 zealots and 2 cannons on 2 base when you could have like 5 goons and 6 zealots on 1 base. And you could have that comp earlier because your gateway count is higher earlier. It's just the choice of strategies that puts the pressure to "out-play" on the P. Just that simple. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia18993 Posts
On April 10 2020 01:21 Uldridge wrote: This entire discussion is based on the fact that P opts into having the pressure put on him because he plays this strategy. He gives himself as much of an economic edge as possible with the forge expand. Shoud he go 1 base 3 gate goon with legs behind it or something he'd put the pressure on Z. You basically have 3 zealots and 2 cannons on 2 base when you could have like 5 goons and 6 zealots on 1 base. And you could have that comp earlier because your gateway count is higher earlier. It's just the choice of strategies that puts the pressure to "out-play" on the P. Just that simple. Skipping cannons makes you very vulnerable to lings running around your base and potentially costing you lost workers. Skipping a nexus could be plausible, but is there really another build that can keep lings from harassing besides cannons? Overpool seems like it would wreck a one base meta. I'm definitely open to the idea of one base if there was a viable ling defensive build order. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On April 10 2020 04:33 BisuDagger wrote: Skipping cannons makes you very vulnerable to lings running around your base and potentially costing you lost workers. Skipping a nexus could be plausible, but is there really another build that can keep lings from harassing besides cannons? Overpool seems like it would wreck a one base meta. I'm definitely open to the idea of one base if there was a viable ling defensive build order. There is. It's called putting 2 zealots on hold on a ramp after your army moves out, thus preventing any runbys in the first place I tend to agree with the idea that there are options. I remember when Bisu went 1 base against hero on Sniper Ridge years ago and ended up winning with good decisions overall. Protoss players have gotten so used to going forge FE or gate FE that one basing will probably feel like new territory to a few in PvZ. | ||
Rainalcar
Croatia314 Posts
| ||
Uldridge
Belgium4244 Posts
| ||
ppp87
Laos250 Posts
| ||
MooPower92
8 Posts
On April 10 2020 01:08 Rainalcar wrote: This. The most that P can get from the situation is a chance to win, which, depending on the flow of the game, can be above, but also below 50%. The worst that can happen to P is instant loss. P doesn't have depth at this point of the game for a meta shift - the only way to defend against hydras is cannons; and cannon number cannot be hidden while hydras or their numbers can be hidden. Forge FE doesn't provide many options to counter this, while 1base builds or proxy gates have a small window to succeed vZ. I don't agree, however, with delaying hydra upgrades as a solution. A slightly faster cannon warp-in could affect the balance even less and work quite well. Faster cannon warping would definitely affect more match ups than slightly delayed hydra upgrades. It would potentially change pvp openers/builds, more cheese cannon rush vs Zerg behind mineral line. There’s no other match up where hydra upgrades would affect as much as giving Protoss just a few more precious seconds to prepare. In ZvT there isn’t some timing vulture harassment that would be abused if hydras weren’t upgraded or Zerg not being able to take map control sooner if their hydras weren’t upgraded yet because you usually wait for OL speed and even then hydras have about the same range as a vulture without upgrades. And Zerg has sim city to wall off vulture harass anyways. Also with one base openers they can be mixed in a bo5 match just to mix things up but I think pro gamers generally agree one base play is always going to be subpar vs FE builds. The ratio of economy is just vastly different with 1 base toss back 2 base Zerg vs 2 base toss and 3 base Zerg. Not to mention Protoss units can only trade efficiently when they have splash damage units or higher upgrades which takes a lot of gas. Something one base play can’t afford to spread out so thin while also trying to build corsairs. The times where one base play works is when Zerg plays inoptimally or didn’t scout what Protoss was doing properly. Basically it’s zergs game to lose if they didn’t play to their best potential. | ||
Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
| ||
MooPower92
8 Posts
On April 09 2020 14:56 EsportsJohn wrote: Let's just say I disagree. Remember when 1-1-1 was an all-in build? This is wayyyyy over-exaggerated. 1-1-1 was figured out within a year, 3 hatch hydra busts have always been an easy way to take out Protoss relative to other strategies. Again I’m not saying 3 hatch hydra is impossible to defend but on a margin scale it’s definitely not as fair for the Protoss compared to Zergs reaction to 1-1-1 or any other historical meta shifts. | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
One of the reasons protoss FE is that they secure the only path to their 2 bases early. | ||
Uldridge
Belgium4244 Posts
Does a reaver die faster than a cannon? | ||
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 10 2020 07:16 ppp87 wrote: Can someone post the soma's afreeca stream url please, I cant find it by myself, thanks. play.afreecatv.com/thakzkf When he streams you can see him on the list of live streams. | ||
Rainalcar
Croatia314 Posts
Faster cannon warping would definitely affect more match ups than slightly delayed hydra upgrades. It would potentially change pvp openers/builds, more cheese cannon rush vs Zerg behind mineral line. There’s no other match up where hydra upgrades would affect as much as giving Protoss just a few more precious seconds to prepare. In ZvT there isn’t some timing vulture harassment that would be abused if hydras weren’t upgraded or Zerg not being able to take map control sooner if their hydras weren’t upgraded yet because you usually wait for OL speed and even then hydras have about the same range as a vulture without upgrades. And Zerg has sim city to wall off vulture harass anyways. How do you think PvP would change? What comes to mind is some DT timings and scrambling defense vs Dragoons. As far as I am concerned, I could live with both, I don't mind actually. vZ yes, there will be more chance to pull of a cannon rush, but Z definitely can play against this and it is very map dependent. Hydra upgrades also don't affect things much, true. Perhaps slightly in hydra breaks vT. But I would rather the weaker race helped as long as the change doesn't affect at all the other non-mirror matchup, and PvT is practically not affected at all. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia18993 Posts
On April 10 2020 22:49 Rainalcar wrote: How do you think PvP would change? What comes to mind is some DT timings and scrambling defense vs Dragoons. As far as I am concerned, I could live with both, I don't mind actually. vZ yes, there will be more chance to pull of a cannon rush, but Z definitely can play against this and it is very map dependent. Hydra upgrades also don't affect things much, true. Perhaps slightly in hydra breaks vT. But I would rather the weaker race helped as long as the change doesn't affect at all the other non-mirror matchup, and PvT is practically not affected at all. Changing anything about the cannon would be too dangerous in its effect on the game. However, if we had to choose a way to change cannons, how about cannons start with their shields at 50/100 so that it fills up to 100/100 shields before health maxes out, but finishes constructing at the same set time. This would obviously strengthen cannon rushes, but would greatly help defense. | ||
Turbovolver
Australia2277 Posts
Can we get this kind of activity on all the LR threads again? | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
I loved how rain prepared a super fast nexus in his first game vs sacsri in ASL 8 ro8. It was just brillant and completely catched the zerg off guard. I think it is relevant that the few protoss who had success against zergs in the history of brood war were those who were applying pressure early games instead of an economy build (Bisu, nal_rA, mini...) and macro oriented protoss did struggle more with the match up (Stork, Best...) Also, can someone elaborate on why FE+2 gates in the wall (or 1 in wall + 1 in main if the map doesnt allow you to build a good wall against lings runby) going for more zealots early pressure isnt more used at the pro level? I would like to see a game of this build used properly, aka priorizing zeals and making probes for only 1 nexus for a while, etc | ||
Rainalcar
Croatia314 Posts
On April 11 2020 00:14 BisuDagger wrote: Changing anything about the cannon would be too dangerous in its effect on the game. However, if we had to choose a way to change cannons, how about cannons start with their shields at 50/100 so that it fills up to 100/100 shields before health maxes out, but finishes constructing at the same set time. This would obviously strengthen cannon rushes, but would greatly help defense. The issue is still the inability to scout vZ. If cannons never finish, they will be sniped in seconds. But I guess it is also a thing to consider. | ||
ppp87
Laos250 Posts
On April 10 2020 20:47 Dangermousecatdog wrote: play.afreecatv.com/thakzkf When he streams you can see him on the list of live streams. | ||
Djabanete
United States2783 Posts
On April 10 2020 19:15 Uldridge wrote: If Protoss needs to get ahead from one base he should go 3 gate robo (obs -> reaver) then get the expansion with your first reaver while it shoots lurkers (this is the most likely contain to face imo) from the ramp, edging down, while playing the micro minigame of keeping your ramp blocked. I'm sure you can keep pumping reavers and while they're super vulnerable if you have a decent meat shield of zealots you can mount a massive defense with 2/3 early reavers defending.. much better than cannons could imo. Does a reaver die faster than a cannon? I would love to see experimentation of the kind you describe and I would love to see it be successful. That being said, if P is on one base and Z is on two, Z can afford more tech than P. Sure, corsairs can fight mutas and reaver/obs can fight lurkers. But does P really have enough gas to make corsairs and reavers and observers? Also, if you don’t make shuttles, reavers can never apply pressure, so if two-base Z contains P on one base for just a little while, they can grow to three-base Z. Now you’re making shuttles, reavers, and observers... can you do it on a single robo fac? I suspect that your proposed opening has too many bottlenecks that can be exploited. Without cannons, one-Stargate corsairs are overwhelmed by muta/scourge. Without a second robo fac, losing a single shuttle or obs will be a devastating setback. And on one base, how can you produce from more than one stargate plus one robo fac? Basically it comes down to what someone already said: One base against two is a worse ratio than two bases against three. So the few one-base P games I’ve seen aren’t about using high-tech units to defend a late natural, but rather about using high-tech units to deliver a crippling blow at the right timing. @TornadoSteve: That’s another plausible idea. Alternatively, I wonder if a focus on goon production, coupled with outrageous goon micro, could be viable. Cadenzie recently played a Bo5 against a BW bot (Locutus) and lost both games in which the bot started amassing a goon ball. In one game she had nearly busted the P natural, but enough goons were hovering behind the nexus to protect it and mount a counterattack. I don’t know if the bot’s micro was unattainably good, but goons prevailed over hydras even though the bot’s decision making was poor. So could there be a build where P just micromanages like crazy and occasionally presses 1d2d3d4d? | ||
RKC
2841 Posts
On April 11 2020 08:35 Djabanete wrote: I would love to see experimentation of the kind you describe and I would love to see it be successful. That being said, if P is on one base and Z is on two, Z can afford more tech than P. Sure, corsairs can fight mutas and reaver/obs can fight lurkers. But does P really have enough gas to make corsairs and reavers and observers? Also, if you don’t make shuttles, reavers can never apply pressure, so if two-base Z contains P on one base for just a little while, they can grow to three-base Z. Now you’re making shuttles, reavers, and observers... can you do it on a single robo fac? I suspect that your proposed opening has too many bottlenecks that can be exploited. Without cannons, one-Stargate corsairs are overwhelmed by muta/scourge. Without a second robo fac, losing a single shuttle or obs will be a devastating setback. And on one base, how can you produce from more than one stargate plus one robo fac? Basically it comes down to what someone already said: One base against two is a worse ratio than two bases against three. So the few one-base P games I’ve seen aren’t about using high-tech units to defend a late natural, but rather about using high-tech units to deliver a crippling blow at the right timing. @TornadoSteve: That’s another plausible idea. Alternatively, I wonder if a focus on goon production, coupled with outrageous goon micro, could be viable. Cadenzie recently played a Bo5 against a BW bot (Locutus) and lost both games in which the bot started amassing a goon ball. In one game she had nearly busted the P natural, but enough goons were hovering behind the nexus to protect it and mount a counterattack. I don’t know if the bot’s micro was unattainably good, but goons prevailed over hydras even though the bot’s decision making was poor. So could there be a build where P just micromanages like crazy and occasionally presses 1d2d3d4d? Yes, 1-basing as Protoss just allows Z too much room to tech up faster and macro up. The general idea of 1-basing is to mount a timing attack early-game that can end the game, kill the opponent's expo, or harass so well for you to expand behind and overtake your opponent's early economic lead (e.g. TvZ). Any 1-base build to defend a 2-base build - that's frankly quite sad... So the question is whether there is any viable way for a 1-base Protoss to apply maximum pressure on the Zerg to expand behind and build a lead? And going back to Protoss FE builds, what are the pros and cons between gate and forge first? | ||
| ||