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On October 25 2018 05:37 JoinTheRain wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 01:13 BigFan wrote:
What? Please don't place blame on the victim... No, really, Last's reaction is Last's fault. There is no doubt about that, how we deal with information is our own decision and no one else's. In the face of the hateful words and insults we can stop and think like this. Those people say hateful stuff about me. There are two possibilities about the words - they are either true or they are false. If they are true, I should not be hurt by the words but even be thankful. Because truth is a good thing to know and no soul is willingly deprived of it. If they are false - then what do I care about lies and baseless hatred? False information should not have any effect on me. Let them flow around me, much like a river flows around a rock. Having said that, I do find it distasteful and ugly to spew mindless hatred and to try to abuse people in any way. But it is bound to happen to any man who finds success in any field and that man has to learn how to deal properly with such situations.
Hm no i think you are wrong. If what you say is right, then you can always blame the victim for being too "sensible" or for not being able to control his/her emotions in any situation where there is no "real" violence involved. Thats just not how humans behave. On the other hand i think its completely fine to say that its also in his power to deal much better with those situation. You can get less sensible to those kind of things and concentrate more on the positive stuff or reject, like you said, those attacks as something false which you dont have to bother with.
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On October 25 2018 05:37 JoinTheRain wrote:
No, really, Last's reaction is Last's fault. There is no doubt about that, how we deal with information is our own decision and no one else's.
In the face of the hateful words and insults we can stop and think like this. Those people say hateful stuff about me. There are two possibilities about the words - they are either true or they are false. If they are true, I should not be hurt by the words but even be thankful. Because truth is a good thing to know and no soul is willingly deprived of it. If they are false - then what do I care about lies and baseless hatred? False information should not have any effect on me. Let them flow around me, much like a river flows around a rock.
How can you lack this much compassion. sympathy and mentalization?
This is on of the most psychopathic thing I have ever read...
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it is very unfortunate for Flash,i think from all the progamers he was the only to receive surgery after all the hard training that eventually caused him a big injury,the reality about the protoss lvl in official competition is that we dont have S class protoss players no more.shuttle rain mini snow etc werent tier S,and they didnt archieve it in the post Kespa era,the quality practise and the competition doesnt force them anymore to step up their game and train non stop,they are streamers and there are less progamers compared to the Kespa era.FlaSh reached perfection, there are not pro houses or proleague or starleagues no more,so dont expect anytime soon for flash to loss his seat,maybe the militar service will help,but i can tell you FlaSh gonna finish his service and be the same player again.
in starcraft the player that train the most wins.is about skill practise and mindset,the race doesnt really help you,except if you are protoss that you are already 3 4 ranks ahead of terran or zerg.
Flash didnt destroy shuttle cuz terran is imba,is just that shuttle is 2 3 tiers below FlaSh.
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On October 25 2018 06:10 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 04:10 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 23:37 Dante08 wrote:On October 24 2018 21:05 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 16:48 Yanokabo wrote:
Maybe toss sheild upgrade should be combined with armor so they can keep pace with Terran mech? It’s unfair toss has to research 3 things when Terran has only 2. Ends up being an extra 800:800 minerals and gas just to match what Terran is doing. Shield is priced at a premium for toss also for some odd reason. Protoss upgrades are fine in pvz however. The issue is terran mech upgrades scale insanely well. I wish they would take like 25% longer to research. Yeah let's complain about upgrades, it's a mediocre PvT Protoss vs the best player right now and the greatest of all time. It must be cause upgrades are too good. The statistics speak for themselves for the races as a whole. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/82758-tlpd-ask-for-statsGranted I did choose to bring this up in the shuttle vs flash thread, however, I'm not necessarily singling out this series. Shuttle was obviously out classed here. So you want to kill off Terran race by nerfing it? Do you realize how rare Terrans are on ladder or are you just some casual fan? Do you realize how pathetically weak Terrans were during 2014-2016 when Protoss were just dominating Terrans on cb? People were saying even if flash comes he won’t be able to adapt to the meta but once he came what happened? 5 barrack +1 that was thought of as trash no quickly became build orders most used and then 5 rax 2 star and then perfected late mech and then 111. This is just one mu. By you saying this you are pretty much destroying Korean pro scene. Many omg t op are the reasons why flash was about to quit and top players such as last as well. Once flash quits what happens? Massive decline in viewership in asl because there is no best player competint. You are also forgetting the fact that flash practiced so much there is a FOOT LONG scar on his arm that still bothers him today. Have you also seen the insane stretch marks on his hand from practicing too much. You are basically discrediting the genius who worked extremely hard( probably the hardest) and through that he was able to become as he is today. And he is so good he beat mong 2-1 PVT and light 2-0. How can you explain T op? And also if you were to nerf Terrans who would play terran? Terran is already by far the hardest race to play but if you set it as even harder who would play. Back in the days Korean clans and teams were looking for Terrans and they just could not find any. They kept away Protoss because there were just TOO MANY OF THEM. So these teams are the cream of the crop when selecting already rare Terrans. So these geniuses probably figured out a way so that Terran race could be as good as other two by introducing many meta etc etc. You just don’t know bw if you say Terran op..
As someone who has watched almost every vod since 2007 and plays practically every day, I'm actually quite offended by being called casual. I don't know BW if I say terran OP? I literally posted a statistic with 10000+ sample size showing that terran has the easiest time with match ups using only the highest tier game pool and your response is bnet ladder. No, nerfing mech upgrade build times would not "kill the Terran race". That's absolutely absurd. Your Arguement is pvt on CB 2014-2016, and bnet ladder which last season I believe was like 13\20 terran in the top 20, as if bnet is even an accurate represention of the higher level of play.
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Only a few things to say:
First, please give rapid and noregret a chance. I too wish that tastosis was casting the finals, but life is not so simple that they can do everything for us. They do have room to improve, and I hope that they will put some effort into it for this large stage.
Second, It's unfortunate to hear of the harassment/treatment some of the players are receiving.
Third.
I do not think it will ever be acceptable to have balance changes to this game again. Maps are the answer. They need to start using a map pool that is 'unfavorable' to terran. Not stupid, like last season.
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On October 25 2018 08:12 kidcrash wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 06:10 Shinokuki wrote:On October 25 2018 04:10 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 23:37 Dante08 wrote:On October 24 2018 21:05 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 16:48 Yanokabo wrote:
Maybe toss sheild upgrade should be combined with armor so they can keep pace with Terran mech? It’s unfair toss has to research 3 things when Terran has only 2. Ends up being an extra 800:800 minerals and gas just to match what Terran is doing. Shield is priced at a premium for toss also for some odd reason. Protoss upgrades are fine in pvz however. The issue is terran mech upgrades scale insanely well. I wish they would take like 25% longer to research. Yeah let's complain about upgrades, it's a mediocre PvT Protoss vs the best player right now and the greatest of all time. It must be cause upgrades are too good. The statistics speak for themselves for the races as a whole. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/82758-tlpd-ask-for-statsGranted I did choose to bring this up in the shuttle vs flash thread, however, I'm not necessarily singling out this series. Shuttle was obviously out classed here. So you want to kill off Terran race by nerfing it? Do you realize how rare Terrans are on ladder or are you just some casual fan? Do you realize how pathetically weak Terrans were during 2014-2016 when Protoss were just dominating Terrans on cb? People were saying even if flash comes he won’t be able to adapt to the meta but once he came what happened? 5 barrack +1 that was thought of as trash no quickly became build orders most used and then 5 rax 2 star and then perfected late mech and then 111. This is just one mu. By you saying this you are pretty much destroying Korean pro scene. Many omg t op are the reasons why flash was about to quit and top players such as last as well. Once flash quits what happens? Massive decline in viewership in asl because there is no best player competint. You are also forgetting the fact that flash practiced so much there is a FOOT LONG scar on his arm that still bothers him today. Have you also seen the insane stretch marks on his hand from practicing too much. You are basically discrediting the genius who worked extremely hard( probably the hardest) and through that he was able to become as he is today. And he is so good he beat mong 2-1 PVT and light 2-0. How can you explain T op? And also if you were to nerf Terrans who would play terran? Terran is already by far the hardest race to play but if you set it as even harder who would play. Back in the days Korean clans and teams were looking for Terrans and they just could not find any. They kept away Protoss because there were just TOO MANY OF THEM. So these teams are the cream of the crop when selecting already rare Terrans. So these geniuses probably figured out a way so that Terran race could be as good as other two by introducing many meta etc etc. You just don’t know bw if you say Terran op.. As someone who has watched almost every vod since 2007 and plays practically every day, I'm actually quite offended by being called casual. I don't know BW if I say terran OP? I literally posted a statistic with 10000+ sample size showing that terran has the easiest time with match ups using only the highest tier game pool and your response is bnet ladder. No, nerfing mech upgrade build times would not "kill the Terran race". That's absolutely absurd. Your Arguement is pvt on CB 2014-2016, and bnet ladder which last season I believe was like 13\20 terran in the top 20, as if bnet is even an accurate represention of the higher level of play.
I actually smiled at the fanboyinsm. Poor genius Flash, there is no way Terran could possibly have an edge at this game.
https://starcraft.com/en-gb/leaderboard?toon_id=&aurora_id=105078032&gateway=30&benefactor=0&namespace=classic
https://starlog.gg/en/leaderboard
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On October 24 2018 21:55 Shinokuki wrote:
I hope people refrain from saying Terran should be nerfed or op. Last was crying and called flash about this ridiculous issues. Only Flash is able to perform what people imagine Terran opness to be. It's simply ridiculous to label terran race as op simply because flash is just too good. There was a stats since post kespa that combines all post leagues such as asl, vant, etc terrans had the lowest win rate despite flash probably raising that high. Also terran is LEAST played on ladder and the least popular race by far because of how hard it is. If the race is supposedly op how on earth is the 50% of population protoss? if you nerf terran bye bye to terran race.
This is also sensitive issue. all the bjs who have jokingly stated T op are apologizing sincerely to the fans and terrans. Many are suspecting that flash wanted to dominated shuttle with only tanks and did some show performance to say "such trash skills have the audacity to say T op without practicing hardcore like us? here is the gap in skills fool.
i would really like to see the streams where they were apologizing.
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JoinTheRain, while your point is understood, it doesn't change the fact that Lasts' crying is 1) understandable and 2) something that we should empathize with. Also, the reason he is crying is that people did bad things to him. Even if his reaction is his own fault, it doesn't mean that the people that were rude to him aren't at fault as well.
Also there are not, and will never be, any balance changes to brood war. Blizzard would never do that. Ergo discussions about balance changes are a waste.
Hopefully Last knows that lots of us actually root for him and want to see him do well. Most people on TL were looking forward to a TvT finals I think, actually. Maybe someone could tell Last that.
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On October 25 2018 08:12 kidcrash wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 06:10 Shinokuki wrote:On October 25 2018 04:10 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 23:37 Dante08 wrote:On October 24 2018 21:05 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 16:48 Yanokabo wrote:
Maybe toss sheild upgrade should be combined with armor so they can keep pace with Terran mech? It’s unfair toss has to research 3 things when Terran has only 2. Ends up being an extra 800:800 minerals and gas just to match what Terran is doing. Shield is priced at a premium for toss also for some odd reason. Protoss upgrades are fine in pvz however. The issue is terran mech upgrades scale insanely well. I wish they would take like 25% longer to research. Yeah let's complain about upgrades, it's a mediocre PvT Protoss vs the best player right now and the greatest of all time. It must be cause upgrades are too good. The statistics speak for themselves for the races as a whole. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/82758-tlpd-ask-for-statsGranted I did choose to bring this up in the shuttle vs flash thread, however, I'm not necessarily singling out this series. Shuttle was obviously out classed here. So you want to kill off Terran race by nerfing it? Do you realize how rare Terrans are on ladder or are you just some casual fan? Do you realize how pathetically weak Terrans were during 2014-2016 when Protoss were just dominating Terrans on cb? People were saying even if flash comes he won’t be able to adapt to the meta but once he came what happened? 5 barrack +1 that was thought of as trash no quickly became build orders most used and then 5 rax 2 star and then perfected late mech and then 111. This is just one mu. By you saying this you are pretty much destroying Korean pro scene. Many omg t op are the reasons why flash was about to quit and top players such as last as well. Once flash quits what happens? Massive decline in viewership in asl because there is no best player competint. You are also forgetting the fact that flash practiced so much there is a FOOT LONG scar on his arm that still bothers him today. Have you also seen the insane stretch marks on his hand from practicing too much. You are basically discrediting the genius who worked extremely hard( probably the hardest) and through that he was able to become as he is today. And he is so good he beat mong 2-1 PVT and light 2-0. How can you explain T op? And also if you were to nerf Terrans who would play terran? Terran is already by far the hardest race to play but if you set it as even harder who would play. Back in the days Korean clans and teams were looking for Terrans and they just could not find any. They kept away Protoss because there were just TOO MANY OF THEM. So these teams are the cream of the crop when selecting already rare Terrans. So these geniuses probably figured out a way so that Terran race could be as good as other two by introducing many meta etc etc. You just don’t know bw if you say Terran op.. As someone who has watched almost every vod since 2007 and plays practically every day, I'm actually quite offended by being called casual. I don't know BW if I say terran OP? I literally posted a statistic with 10000+ sample size showing that terran has the easiest time with match ups using only the highest tier game pool and your response is bnet ladder. No, nerfing mech upgrade build times would not "kill the Terran race". That's absolutely absurd. Your Arguement is pvt on CB 2014-2016, and bnet ladder which last season I believe was like 13\20 terran in the top 20, as if bnet is even an accurate represention of the higher level of play.
there's a difference from watching bw and PLAYING bw. that is world of difference. can you tell me why 111 has been very successful vs zergs and why they are not used as frequently? (what bo does zerg uses that counters?) what's your ladder as well? I too watched many bw and i knew nothing. by playing and reaching a certain level (2k +) you start to realize waht makes flash special and why you just have to admit he is something special
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On October 25 2018 09:59 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 08:12 kidcrash wrote:On October 25 2018 06:10 Shinokuki wrote:On October 25 2018 04:10 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 23:37 Dante08 wrote:On October 24 2018 21:05 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 16:48 Yanokabo wrote:
Maybe toss sheild upgrade should be combined with armor so they can keep pace with Terran mech? It’s unfair toss has to research 3 things when Terran has only 2. Ends up being an extra 800:800 minerals and gas just to match what Terran is doing. Shield is priced at a premium for toss also for some odd reason. Protoss upgrades are fine in pvz however. The issue is terran mech upgrades scale insanely well. I wish they would take like 25% longer to research. Yeah let's complain about upgrades, it's a mediocre PvT Protoss vs the best player right now and the greatest of all time. It must be cause upgrades are too good. The statistics speak for themselves for the races as a whole. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/82758-tlpd-ask-for-statsGranted I did choose to bring this up in the shuttle vs flash thread, however, I'm not necessarily singling out this series. Shuttle was obviously out classed here. So you want to kill off Terran race by nerfing it? Do you realize how rare Terrans are on ladder or are you just some casual fan? Do you realize how pathetically weak Terrans were during 2014-2016 when Protoss were just dominating Terrans on cb? People were saying even if flash comes he won’t be able to adapt to the meta but once he came what happened? 5 barrack +1 that was thought of as trash no quickly became build orders most used and then 5 rax 2 star and then perfected late mech and then 111. This is just one mu. By you saying this you are pretty much destroying Korean pro scene. Many omg t op are the reasons why flash was about to quit and top players such as last as well. Once flash quits what happens? Massive decline in viewership in asl because there is no best player competint. You are also forgetting the fact that flash practiced so much there is a FOOT LONG scar on his arm that still bothers him today. Have you also seen the insane stretch marks on his hand from practicing too much. You are basically discrediting the genius who worked extremely hard( probably the hardest) and through that he was able to become as he is today. And he is so good he beat mong 2-1 PVT and light 2-0. How can you explain T op? And also if you were to nerf Terrans who would play terran? Terran is already by far the hardest race to play but if you set it as even harder who would play. Back in the days Korean clans and teams were looking for Terrans and they just could not find any. They kept away Protoss because there were just TOO MANY OF THEM. So these teams are the cream of the crop when selecting already rare Terrans. So these geniuses probably figured out a way so that Terran race could be as good as other two by introducing many meta etc etc. You just don’t know bw if you say Terran op.. As someone who has watched almost every vod since 2007 and plays practically every day, I'm actually quite offended by being called casual. I don't know BW if I say terran OP? I literally posted a statistic with 10000+ sample size showing that terran has the easiest time with match ups using only the highest tier game pool and your response is bnet ladder. No, nerfing mech upgrade build times would not "kill the Terran race". That's absolutely absurd. Your Arguement is pvt on CB 2014-2016, and bnet ladder which last season I believe was like 13\20 terran in the top 20, as if bnet is even an accurate represention of the higher level of play. I actually smiled at the fanboyinsm. Poor genius Flash, there is no way Terran could possibly have an edge at this game. https://starcraft.com/en-gb/leaderboard?toon_id=&aurora_id=105078032&gateway=30&benefactor=0&namespace=classichttps://starlog.gg/en/leaderboard
I'm not fanboying flash. This is legit destroying bw scene. The fact that there are so many trolls going around and saying T OP!!!!. Koreans on Ygosu are uniting against this issue to protect the integrity of bw scene. You also posted a ladder ranking which speaks to your lack of knowledge of korean scene. These ranks are populated by streamers (shinee,light, last) who makes 3-4 accounts. what happens ? 3 guys who can reach S ranks relatively easily and then have 12 of their accounts in top 20. That's how it is. Also terrans are the ones that play the MOST games. Can you post the season 2 ranks? notice how many zergs are there now? yeah....
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On October 25 2018 12:24 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 08:12 kidcrash wrote:On October 25 2018 06:10 Shinokuki wrote:On October 25 2018 04:10 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 23:37 Dante08 wrote:On October 24 2018 21:05 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 16:48 Yanokabo wrote:
Maybe toss sheild upgrade should be combined with armor so they can keep pace with Terran mech? It’s unfair toss has to research 3 things when Terran has only 2. Ends up being an extra 800:800 minerals and gas just to match what Terran is doing. Shield is priced at a premium for toss also for some odd reason. Protoss upgrades are fine in pvz however. The issue is terran mech upgrades scale insanely well. I wish they would take like 25% longer to research. Yeah let's complain about upgrades, it's a mediocre PvT Protoss vs the best player right now and the greatest of all time. It must be cause upgrades are too good. The statistics speak for themselves for the races as a whole. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/82758-tlpd-ask-for-statsGranted I did choose to bring this up in the shuttle vs flash thread, however, I'm not necessarily singling out this series. Shuttle was obviously out classed here. So you want to kill off Terran race by nerfing it? Do you realize how rare Terrans are on ladder or are you just some casual fan? Do you realize how pathetically weak Terrans were during 2014-2016 when Protoss were just dominating Terrans on cb? People were saying even if flash comes he won’t be able to adapt to the meta but once he came what happened? 5 barrack +1 that was thought of as trash no quickly became build orders most used and then 5 rax 2 star and then perfected late mech and then 111. This is just one mu. By you saying this you are pretty much destroying Korean pro scene. Many omg t op are the reasons why flash was about to quit and top players such as last as well. Once flash quits what happens? Massive decline in viewership in asl because there is no best player competint. You are also forgetting the fact that flash practiced so much there is a FOOT LONG scar on his arm that still bothers him today. Have you also seen the insane stretch marks on his hand from practicing too much. You are basically discrediting the genius who worked extremely hard( probably the hardest) and through that he was able to become as he is today. And he is so good he beat mong 2-1 PVT and light 2-0. How can you explain T op? And also if you were to nerf Terrans who would play terran? Terran is already by far the hardest race to play but if you set it as even harder who would play. Back in the days Korean clans and teams were looking for Terrans and they just could not find any. They kept away Protoss because there were just TOO MANY OF THEM. So these teams are the cream of the crop when selecting already rare Terrans. So these geniuses probably figured out a way so that Terran race could be as good as other two by introducing many meta etc etc. You just don’t know bw if you say Terran op.. As someone who has watched almost every vod since 2007 and plays practically every day, I'm actually quite offended by being called casual. I don't know BW if I say terran OP? I literally posted a statistic with 10000+ sample size showing that terran has the easiest time with match ups using only the highest tier game pool and your response is bnet ladder. No, nerfing mech upgrade build times would not "kill the Terran race". That's absolutely absurd. Your Arguement is pvt on CB 2014-2016, and bnet ladder which last season I believe was like 13\20 terran in the top 20, as if bnet is even an accurate represention of the higher level of play. there's a difference from watching bw and PLAYING bw. that is world of difference. can you tell me why 111 has been very successful vs zergs and why they are not used as frequently? (what bo does zerg uses that counters?) what's your ladder as well? I too watched many bw and i knew nothing. by playing and reaching a certain level (2k +) you start to realize waht makes flash special and why you just have to admit he is something special
Are you really trying to sit here and test my knowledge of starcraft? The only thing that matters is results at the top level and I posted a sample size of ten thousand high profile games. Not bnet ladder. This includes OSL and MSL finals matches. While I agree that bw will probably never receive any patches, to say that terran doesn't have the highest win percentage at the top level is inaccurate information.
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TLADT24920 Posts
^ These are the stats from the link you posted. What are you even trying to argue? That Terran has a slight advantage in TvZ and that Protoss has a slight one in PvT?
Matchup all-time records:
- TvZ: 1544-1323 (53.85%)
- ZvP: 982-855 (53.46%)
- PvT: 1120-1072 (51.09%)
These stats don't even matter in this era, because the training environment is totally different. Hero for instance put a ton of time into ASL preparation and got second, and third place in the ASL4 and ASL5. Either way, they don't really say much other than what I mentioned above. The fact that people thought Shuttle who's a family man, and plays BW for fun is supposed to compete with Flash who's still trying his hardest to remain the best in the game? Honestly, it boggles the mind. These recent PvTs vs Flash are terrible to draw any conclusions from, and this doesn't even take maps or other factors into account.
Anyways, enough with the balance whining. You guys had your fun with this tesagi talk, please move on at this point.
On October 25 2018 12:24 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 08:12 kidcrash wrote:On October 25 2018 06:10 Shinokuki wrote:On October 25 2018 04:10 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 23:37 Dante08 wrote:On October 24 2018 21:05 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 16:48 Yanokabo wrote:
Maybe toss sheild upgrade should be combined with armor so they can keep pace with Terran mech? It’s unfair toss has to research 3 things when Terran has only 2. Ends up being an extra 800:800 minerals and gas just to match what Terran is doing. Shield is priced at a premium for toss also for some odd reason. Protoss upgrades are fine in pvz however. The issue is terran mech upgrades scale insanely well. I wish they would take like 25% longer to research. Yeah let's complain about upgrades, it's a mediocre PvT Protoss vs the best player right now and the greatest of all time. It must be cause upgrades are too good. The statistics speak for themselves for the races as a whole. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/82758-tlpd-ask-for-statsGranted I did choose to bring this up in the shuttle vs flash thread, however, I'm not necessarily singling out this series. Shuttle was obviously out classed here. So you want to kill off Terran race by nerfing it? Do you realize how rare Terrans are on ladder or are you just some casual fan? Do you realize how pathetically weak Terrans were during 2014-2016 when Protoss were just dominating Terrans on cb? People were saying even if flash comes he won’t be able to adapt to the meta but once he came what happened? 5 barrack +1 that was thought of as trash no quickly became build orders most used and then 5 rax 2 star and then perfected late mech and then 111. This is just one mu. By you saying this you are pretty much destroying Korean pro scene. Many omg t op are the reasons why flash was about to quit and top players such as last as well. Once flash quits what happens? Massive decline in viewership in asl because there is no best player competint. You are also forgetting the fact that flash practiced so much there is a FOOT LONG scar on his arm that still bothers him today. Have you also seen the insane stretch marks on his hand from practicing too much. You are basically discrediting the genius who worked extremely hard( probably the hardest) and through that he was able to become as he is today. And he is so good he beat mong 2-1 PVT and light 2-0. How can you explain T op? And also if you were to nerf Terrans who would play terran? Terran is already by far the hardest race to play but if you set it as even harder who would play. Back in the days Korean clans and teams were looking for Terrans and they just could not find any. They kept away Protoss because there were just TOO MANY OF THEM. So these teams are the cream of the crop when selecting already rare Terrans. So these geniuses probably figured out a way so that Terran race could be as good as other two by introducing many meta etc etc. You just don’t know bw if you say Terran op.. As someone who has watched almost every vod since 2007 and plays practically every day, I'm actually quite offended by being called casual. I don't know BW if I say terran OP? I literally posted a statistic with 10000+ sample size showing that terran has the easiest time with match ups using only the highest tier game pool and your response is bnet ladder. No, nerfing mech upgrade build times would not "kill the Terran race". That's absolutely absurd. Your Arguement is pvt on CB 2014-2016, and bnet ladder which last season I believe was like 13\20 terran in the top 20, as if bnet is even an accurate represention of the higher level of play. there's a difference from watching bw and PLAYING bw. that is world of difference. can you tell me why 111 has been very successful vs zergs and why they are not used as frequently? (what bo does zerg uses that counters?) what's your ladder as well? I too watched many bw and i knew nothing. by playing and reaching a certain level (2k +) you start to realize waht makes flash special and why you just have to admit he is something special
I tend to agree, there is a huge difference between watching and playing the game. You start to realize that what these guys do isn't easy, even more so for players like Flash who make all the other players, including Terran ones look chobo. Anyone remember Mind vs Flash in ASL4? Flash rolled Mind 3-0, even when Mind held an extra base, and an advantage against him on Crossing Field. Granted, Mind tried to move his tanks, and the AI messed it up, but Flash also was patient, and didn't try to damage him or commit to anything, but a contain then.
What about Flash vs Bisu in ASL4 as well? This was hyped up, but Bisu got stomped. The guy had complete map control, lots of bases on FS then decided to have one of the poor engagements ever with terrible stasis. This gave Flash the ability to push out and siege Bisu's expansion to eventually win the game. Let's not even talk about the other games. What about Flash vs Sea in ASL2 finals? Sea took a game because he somehow managed to sneak an expansion on Benzene, but Flash showed he's much superior with all the different types of games on Demian, Circuit Breaker etc....
Flash vs Soulkey in ASL3? Soulkey is playing pretty well, defends his front on Outsider, trying to rush ultras afaik, then Flash manages to evade scourge and drops him right before it happens. Or that Flash vs Last match where Flash 3-0'd last in ASL3, getting revenge for ASL1. He made Last look so terrible, completely helpless on Andromeda for instance. I could go on and on, but it should be clear to anyone who has followed this game that Flash is a special case.
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This is how I personally feel about the game balance at the highest possible levels of human play (I care much less about lower tier play, and superhuman levels of play impossible to replicate for a single human without software assistance or otherwise).
The feeling of hopelessness people get from watching Flash games is due to the fact that it seems like Flash plays like he uses map hacks. This is possible, partly due to Flash's characteristics as a person, but also because the terran race tends to fare rather well purely in a game of information and decision making. If all parties involved had access to map hacks, the zerg race would probably struggle the most, because zerg players tend to use misinformation to their advantages (because their change of pace due to the larva system is the quickest, whereas other races are more commited to the choices they make), which is why they tend to fare better in best-of-series as opposed to standard environments, because it is easier to play mind games (forcing the opponent to play worse through misinformation, rather than two players playing the immaculate game) with the zerg race than it is for the other races. Protoss benefits heavily from even distribution of information too, but struggles to achieve information parity, but has more game changing RPG-esque units to make up for that.
So purely within a game of decision making with minimal surprises, whether it is due to heroic usage of certain units, or a strike unthought of strategically speaking, the terran race probably benefits the most, and in the hands of the best decision maker (both in terms of speed and accuracy) the scene has ever seen, the games Flash succeeds in may seem very unfair. Only a few can keep up in that specific regard even on their best days, with Soulkey on good form probably being one of them (Flash has heavily commended Soulkey's decision making skills within the zerg-versus-terran match-up).
However, that happens only if you agree to play to Flash's terms and conditions, with no mind games or strategic curveballs, no playmaking with game changing units, and seek to keep up with Flash in his element, it is playing right into Flash's territory. The terran race isn't without its weakness, and Flash isn't a player without flaws and weaknesses that can be abused to achieve victory. Once that becomes impossible, then we can start to discuss game changes to open up opportunities that were impossible to open up otherwise.
Brood War as a game has so much depth, that I think it is ridiculous to pretend that Flash has achieved the maximum skill ceiling of what is humanly possible. Of course with a game that has such variance between the three races, there are going to be realms in which some races are heavily favoured over others. For example, take the zerg-versus-protoss match-up, the zerg race has infinitely better scouting options due to the overlord alone, but the protoss race has the multi-tasking advantage due to its unit make-up and how zergs have a higher multi-tasking demand with how many bases they have to manage, and that was something Bisu abused a lot. Instead of bitching about the information disadvantage, Bisu honed his probe micro-management and movement to a degree where it was next to impossible to deny information from him without upgrading speedlings, and found a way to abuse the innate multi-tasking advantage the protoss race had over the zerg race.
I think Brood War is extremely well balanced, and while it is not perfect, following the advice of many people here would probably ruin the game balance in ways unimagined previously, due to the extremely fickle nature of the game that miraculoulsy managed to be balanced well enough to sustain a competitive gaming scene for two decades without much game alterations. I also think it is utter bullshit to ignore certain advantages the terran race has over the other races, or to pretend it is only Flash that makes terran seem this way, but the fact of the matter is that the factor that is the most influential in terms of results, is player skill, and the other factors can be adjusted to a decent enough degree with maps. The answer to competitive Brood War has always been about skill, and the map pool, never about the game itself. There is no opponent you cannot defeat with superior skill as long as the maps are well thought out enough, and that is something the entire scene has been trying over years and years. A sudden change in balance would ruin the game in my opinion. It may improve things for the better, but the chances of it happening are less than one in a million, and I wouldn't trust Blizzard to hit those odds, no matter whose advice they take.
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On October 25 2018 12:46 kidcrash wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 12:24 Shinokuki wrote:On October 25 2018 08:12 kidcrash wrote:On October 25 2018 06:10 Shinokuki wrote:On October 25 2018 04:10 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 23:37 Dante08 wrote:On October 24 2018 21:05 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 16:48 Yanokabo wrote:
Maybe toss sheild upgrade should be combined with armor so they can keep pace with Terran mech? It’s unfair toss has to research 3 things when Terran has only 2. Ends up being an extra 800:800 minerals and gas just to match what Terran is doing. Shield is priced at a premium for toss also for some odd reason. Protoss upgrades are fine in pvz however. The issue is terran mech upgrades scale insanely well. I wish they would take like 25% longer to research. Yeah let's complain about upgrades, it's a mediocre PvT Protoss vs the best player right now and the greatest of all time. It must be cause upgrades are too good. The statistics speak for themselves for the races as a whole. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/82758-tlpd-ask-for-statsGranted I did choose to bring this up in the shuttle vs flash thread, however, I'm not necessarily singling out this series. Shuttle was obviously out classed here. So you want to kill off Terran race by nerfing it? Do you realize how rare Terrans are on ladder or are you just some casual fan? Do you realize how pathetically weak Terrans were during 2014-2016 when Protoss were just dominating Terrans on cb? People were saying even if flash comes he won’t be able to adapt to the meta but once he came what happened? 5 barrack +1 that was thought of as trash no quickly became build orders most used and then 5 rax 2 star and then perfected late mech and then 111. This is just one mu. By you saying this you are pretty much destroying Korean pro scene. Many omg t op are the reasons why flash was about to quit and top players such as last as well. Once flash quits what happens? Massive decline in viewership in asl because there is no best player competint. You are also forgetting the fact that flash practiced so much there is a FOOT LONG scar on his arm that still bothers him today. Have you also seen the insane stretch marks on his hand from practicing too much. You are basically discrediting the genius who worked extremely hard( probably the hardest) and through that he was able to become as he is today. And he is so good he beat mong 2-1 PVT and light 2-0. How can you explain T op? And also if you were to nerf Terrans who would play terran? Terran is already by far the hardest race to play but if you set it as even harder who would play. Back in the days Korean clans and teams were looking for Terrans and they just could not find any. They kept away Protoss because there were just TOO MANY OF THEM. So these teams are the cream of the crop when selecting already rare Terrans. So these geniuses probably figured out a way so that Terran race could be as good as other two by introducing many meta etc etc. You just don’t know bw if you say Terran op.. As someone who has watched almost every vod since 2007 and plays practically every day, I'm actually quite offended by being called casual. I don't know BW if I say terran OP? I literally posted a statistic with 10000+ sample size showing that terran has the easiest time with match ups using only the highest tier game pool and your response is bnet ladder. No, nerfing mech upgrade build times would not "kill the Terran race". That's absolutely absurd. Your Arguement is pvt on CB 2014-2016, and bnet ladder which last season I believe was like 13\20 terran in the top 20, as if bnet is even an accurate represention of the higher level of play. there's a difference from watching bw and PLAYING bw. that is world of difference. can you tell me why 111 has been very successful vs zergs and why they are not used as frequently? (what bo does zerg uses that counters?) what's your ladder as well? I too watched many bw and i knew nothing. by playing and reaching a certain level (2k +) you start to realize waht makes flash special and why you just have to admit he is something special Are you really trying to sit here and test my knowledge of starcraft? The only thing that matters is results at the top level and I posted a sample size of ten thousand high profile games. Not bnet ladder. This includes OSL and MSL finals matches. While I agree that bw will probably never receive any patches, to say that terran doesn't have the highest win percentage at the top level is inaccurate information.
You are bringing up prehistoric stats that don’t mean anything today. Meta has changed so much that those stats don’t even matter. Heck there’s so much difference from 2010 and 2016 and onwards. This flat out tells me you haven’t a single clue about bw’s Depth. Just watching bw doesn’t really give you a good read on bw games. Looks like you haven’t really played bw recently have you? Do you at least know why the infamous 5 rax 2 star is not as frequently used? Have you even seen recent meta of fast shuttle drop plays that wreaked havoc on Terrans and Terrans finally overcoming it solely due to flash’s constant meta update? If you don’t know these I really recommend you stay out of this discussion. It looks like a guy who just studied accounting in accounting 101 say I know all bout accounting.
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On October 25 2018 13:09 Letmelose wrote:
The feeling of hopelessness people get from watching Flash games is due to the fact that it seems like Flash plays like he uses map hacks. This is possible, partly due to Flash's characteristics as a person, but also because the terran race tends to fare rather well purely in a game of information and decision making. If all parties involved had access to map hacks, the zerg race would probably struggle the most, because zerg players tend to use misinformation to their advantages (because their change of pace due to the larva system is the quickest, whereas other races are more commited to the choices they make), which is why they tend to fare better in best-of-series as opposed to standard environments, because it is easier to play mind games (forcing the opponent to play worse through misinformation, rather than two players playing the immaculate game) with the zerg race than it is for the other races. Protoss benefits heavily from even distribution of information too, but struggles to achieve information parity, but has more game changing RPG-esque units to make up for that.
So purely within a game of decision making with minimal surprises, whether it is due to heroic usage of certain units, or a strike unthought of strategically speaking, the terran race probably benefits the most, and in the hands of the best decision maker (both in terms of speed and accuracy) the scene has ever seen, the games Flash succeeds in may seem very unfair. Only a few can keep up in that specific regard even on their best days, with Soulkey on good form probably being one of them (Flash has heavily commended Soulkey's decision making skills within the zerg-versus-terran match-up).
Good analysis. I wonder if there have been been any streamed matches between pros playing with a maphack? Or on a UMS game where they get free vision everywhere. That would be fascinating to see how it shakes out when there's no build order randomness, and nowhere to hide.
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Balance aside, there's a spectator aspect to all of this. That spectator aspect is why last season used the maps it did. In truth, it doesn't matter if Flash is god himself.
If they provide a 'level playing field' and the result is that Flash wins ASL 2,3,4,6,7,8,9, well, eventually, I think a lot of people are going to stop watching.
I do believe both that Flash is god and that Terran has a slight advantage. It just doesn't matter though. If Flash doesn't have a real competitor, they need to prop one up with the map pool, but can't go so far that it just feels fake like last season.
anyway, maps.
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I think PvT is pretty evenly balanced for the most part based on how other terran pros fare against protoss pros with Flash out of the picture.
The reason why I believe Protoss has had the least amount of title wins in the entire history of SC broodwar is because of the T>Z>P>T theory. Protoss have had a slight lead against Terran in PvT, but lose a good margin more in ZvP.
So when you take into account which race and match ups eliminate each other, Terran is usually standing the strongest statistical chance at winning any given tournament not factoring maps because of how the match up strengths/advantages play out.
Terran is only slightly underperforming against Protoss while Protoss by comparison underperforms quite a bit against Zerg. And Zerg underperforms slightly against Terran. So while Zerg eliminates Protoss, Terran's worst theoretically match up is eliminated and even if they face it's only a slight disadvantage in terms of statistics.
So I think if they just fix something with ZvP make scouting more accessible for Protoss in the early stages or Protoss figures out some new meta game against them, people can stop whining about balance. Oh and not to forget about ZvT, perhaps make queens start with more energy or ensnare less mana cost to make it more accessible to use against bio. It would lead to less all-in hive rush type strategies, and make lair tech more viable in mid game to survive until defilers.
I think a good chunk of ZvP wins are due to the early game advantages that Zerg has. When it goes to mid to late game Protoss doesn't have to fear losing to all ins or being faked out with hydra bust ,etc. Otherwise I think PvZ is pretty balanced.
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On October 25 2018 05:37 JoinTheRain wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 01:13 BigFan wrote:
What? Please don't place blame on the victim... No, really, Last's reaction is Last's fault. There is no doubt about that, how we deal with information is our own decision and no one else's. In the face of the hateful words and insults we can stop and think like this. Those people say hateful stuff about me. There are two possibilities about the words - they are either true or they are false. If they are true, I should not be hurt by the words but even be thankful. Because truth is a good thing to know and no soul is willingly deprived of it. If they are false - then what do I care about lies and baseless hatred? False information should not have any effect on me. Let them flow around me, much like a river flows around a rock. Having said that, I do find it distasteful and ugly to spew mindless hatred and to try to abuse people in any way. But it is bound to happen to any man who finds success in any field and that man has to learn how to deal properly with such situations.
I don't think you have the correct picture of what happened. I don't either necessarily-- I was watching that stream and when it was clear Last was about to lose it, I started running stuff through the translator, expecting it to be upset over the 2-3 semis loss vs Effort. Each time someone said something like: "you're a pro", or "don't cry", "Effort played really well", someone else mentioned that the problem was politics not that match. Stork was mentioned several times. Ppl were suggesting Last not play. Hopefully someone can expand on details, because I can't run the whole stream through translate.
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United States1654 Posts
Flash makes Terran seem overpowered, but that's how all the bonjwas made it seem. People thought oov/Nada/Savior had solved the game and couldn't be beaten when they were dominating, but they were wrong.
Flash is the same, with the major difference being...there is no new generation to usurp him. In the past, when a player dominated, they were usually beaten by a newer player who brought new ideas, a new playstyle, or better mechanics to the scene. There's no next generation of players here. No up and coming Brood War players who receive pro-level training in a teamhouse and practice all day. Brood War has basically just become about the same ten to twenty progamers, who we see in every tournament. Of course Flash is going to keep winning.
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I agree with Letmelose on balance. What eonzerg said about s-class is also very true. A while ago, in a period when really nobody but Flash was doing well with terran (not even Last and Mind) there was a discussion if terran was too weak as a race. See how times change? Back then you could literally see on screen how bad Mind's execution and macro was compared to the people from other races he was playing against. However, the balance argument was still brought up...
On October 25 2018 13:57 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 13:09 Letmelose wrote:
The feeling of hopelessness people get from watching Flash games is due to the fact that it seems like Flash plays like he uses map hacks. This is possible, partly due to Flash's characteristics as a person, but also because the terran race tends to fare rather well purely in a game of information and decision making. If all parties involved had access to map hacks, the zerg race would probably struggle the most, because zerg players tend to use misinformation to their advantages (because their change of pace due to the larva system is the quickest, whereas other races are more commited to the choices they make), which is why they tend to fare better in best-of-series as opposed to standard environments, because it is easier to play mind games (forcing the opponent to play worse through misinformation, rather than two players playing the immaculate game) with the zerg race than it is for the other races. Protoss benefits heavily from even distribution of information too, but struggles to achieve information parity, but has more game changing RPG-esque units to make up for that.
So purely within a game of decision making with minimal surprises, whether it is due to heroic usage of certain units, or a strike unthought of strategically speaking, the terran race probably benefits the most, and in the hands of the best decision maker (both in terms of speed and accuracy) the scene has ever seen, the games Flash succeeds in may seem very unfair. Only a few can keep up in that specific regard even on their best days, with Soulkey on good form probably being one of them (Flash has heavily commended Soulkey's decision making skills within the zerg-versus-terran match-up).
Good analysis. I wonder if there have been been any streamed matches between pros playing with a maphack? Or on a UMS game where they get free vision everywhere. That would be fascinating to see how it shakes out when there's no build order randomness, and nowhere to hide.
I think Flash played against Terror using maphack on stream once.
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EPT
