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ALLEYCAT BLUES51104 Posts
On October 24 2018 21:55 Shinokuki wrote:
I hope people refrain from saying Terran should be nerfed or op. Last was crying and called flash about this ridiculous issues. Only Flash is able to perform what people imagine Terran opness to be. It's simply ridiculous to label terran race as op simply because flash is just too good. There was a stats since post kespa that combines all post leagues such as asl, vant, etc terrans had the lowest win rate despite flash probably raising that high. Also terran is LEAST played on ladder and the least popular race by far because of how hard it is. If the race is supposedly op how on earth is the 50% of population protoss? if you nerf terran bye bye to terran race.
This is also sensitive issue. all the bjs who have jokingly stated T op are apologizing sincerely to the fans and terrans. Many are suspecting that flash wanted to dominated shuttle with only tanks and did some show performance to say "such trash skills have the audacity to say T op without practicing hardcore like us? here is the gap in skills fool.
this is for real?
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On October 24 2018 21:55 Shinokuki wrote:
I hope people refrain from saying Terran should be nerfed or op. Last was crying and called flash about this ridiculous issues. Only Flash is able to perform what people imagine Terran opness to be. It's simply ridiculous to label terran race as op simply because flash is just too good. There was a stats since post kespa that combines all post leagues such as asl, vant, etc terrans had the lowest win rate despite flash probably raising that high. Also terran is LEAST played on ladder and the least popular race by far because of how hard it is. If the race is supposedly op how on earth is the 50% of population protoss? if you nerf terran bye bye to terran race.
This is also sensitive issue. all the bjs who have jokingly stated T op are apologizing sincerely to the fans and terrans. Many are suspecting that flash wanted to dominated shuttle with only tanks and did some show performance to say "such trash skills have the audacity to say T op without practicing hardcore like us? here is the gap in skills fool.
I believe that in principle, that discussions over non-player factors, whether it is the balance of the match-ups, maps, or flaws in tournament format, should take place independently from the players that made people notice these issues. Every player participated in this tournament in full agreement to the maps, the tournament format, and the state of the game itself. These are the rules, and the way it plays out may not be in alignment with how people want the way things to be, but that is the very nature of competition. It is not a perfectly scripted narrative with sexy storylines that satisfies all audiences just right, and there always will be people bitching about one thing or the other (I don't think there ever has been a time where Shine made a deep run in a tournament where somebody didn't bitch about how somebody else should have made it in his place, for example).
When it comes to Flash, racial balance is always the hot topic. It was the same with iloveoov, it was the same with NaDa before him, this isn't anything new, and mentioning stuff like ladder statistics is a very weak way of going about disputing the Taesagi claims (it is a known fact that the protoss race is broken as fuck in lower tier play, while the balance shift changes against the protoss race once we hit the very elite tier, while it changes again in favour of the protoss race if players use team melee settings to play co-operatively).
Once people start harassing the players, and questioning the value of their competitive results due to their personal frustrations, that is when it starts to become a problem.
However, Flash is no saint in this regard, since he was never the one to back-up about berating the competitive results of other players if he personally felt unfairly treated with certain situations (whether it was dismissing JangBi's results because he had to split his practice time with Starcraft 2, when the fact of the matter is that JangBi was placed in exactly the same situation, at the time had superior results in both Brood War and Starcraft 2 compared to Flash, or whether it was calling the protoss race as Saegi in official interviews during his time as a Starcraft 2 professional). I don't think Flash deserves the backlash of the fans just because he performs too well, but it is a human trait to blame uncontrollable factors to displace blame on self, as Flash has shown time and time again. I don't think it'll change any time soon for the fans either.
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On October 24 2018 21:05 kidcrash wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 16:48 Yanokabo wrote:
Maybe toss sheild upgrade should be combined with armor so they can keep pace with Terran mech? It’s unfair toss has to research 3 things when Terran has only 2. Ends up being an extra 800:800 minerals and gas just to match what Terran is doing. Shield is priced at a premium for toss also for some odd reason. Protoss upgrades are fine in pvz however. The issue is terran mech upgrades scale insanely well. I wish they would take like 25% longer to research.
Yeah let's complain about upgrades, it's a mediocre PvT Protoss vs the best player right now and the greatest of all time. It must be cause upgrades are too good.
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On October 24 2018 23:15 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 21:55 Shinokuki wrote:
I hope people refrain from saying Terran should be nerfed or op. Last was crying and called flash about this ridiculous issues. Only Flash is able to perform what people imagine Terran opness to be. It's simply ridiculous to label terran race as op simply because flash is just too good. There was a stats since post kespa that combines all post leagues such as asl, vant, etc terrans had the lowest win rate despite flash probably raising that high. Also terran is LEAST played on ladder and the least popular race by far because of how hard it is. If the race is supposedly op how on earth is the 50% of population protoss? if you nerf terran bye bye to terran race.
This is also sensitive issue. all the bjs who have jokingly stated T op are apologizing sincerely to the fans and terrans. Many are suspecting that flash wanted to dominated shuttle with only tanks and did some show performance to say "such trash skills have the audacity to say T op without practicing hardcore like us? here is the gap in skills fool. this is for real?
Jaedong is the most popular player in the scene as of today, and has the most annoying fandom ever as a result. While the dude himself is the epitome of good sportsmanly conduct, the same cannot be said for his fanbase, and Last was on the receiving end of some really crappy fan rage ever since his one sided victory against Jaedong, who probably made his last ever push for a major trophy. Last practiced really hard, despite suffering from severe wrist pains, and felt like everybody wanted him to lose without even appreciating the effort he put in to breakdown the game into the finest details. He cried on stream after his defeat versus EffOrt, and said he doesn't want to compete anymore if such harassments continue.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51104 Posts
I've known how disgusting the entire stream viewing community of afreeca(and by extension ygosu forums) has been for some time now, its just heart breaking to hear these kinds of things even now.
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On October 24 2018 23:51 BLinD-RawR wrote:
I've known how disgusting the entire stream viewing community of afreeca(and by extension ygosu forums) has been for some time now, its just heart breaking to hear these kinds of things even now.
Some of the most knowledgeable and financially giving people I've seen are also from that community. It is easy to judge from afar, but internet rage and blame scales with community size and moderation, not necessarily the character of the people involved.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51104 Posts
of course, otherwise the job wouldn't be sustainable for the mid range guys(in popularity not necessarily skill), IIRC Mind is one of those people whos had like one major backer to his stream and guys like Britney with MPL wouldn't be where he was without the support.(aside from viewers calling shinhan investment corp a loanshark company)
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 24 2018 23:42 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 23:15 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 24 2018 21:55 Shinokuki wrote:
I hope people refrain from saying Terran should be nerfed or op. Last was crying and called flash about this ridiculous issues. Only Flash is able to perform what people imagine Terran opness to be. It's simply ridiculous to label terran race as op simply because flash is just too good. There was a stats since post kespa that combines all post leagues such as asl, vant, etc terrans had the lowest win rate despite flash probably raising that high. Also terran is LEAST played on ladder and the least popular race by far because of how hard it is. If the race is supposedly op how on earth is the 50% of population protoss? if you nerf terran bye bye to terran race.
This is also sensitive issue. all the bjs who have jokingly stated T op are apologizing sincerely to the fans and terrans. Many are suspecting that flash wanted to dominated shuttle with only tanks and did some show performance to say "such trash skills have the audacity to say T op without practicing hardcore like us? here is the gap in skills fool. this is for real? Jaedong is the most popular player in the scene as of today, and has the most annoying fandom ever as a result. While the dude himself is the epitome of good sportsmanly conduct, the same cannot be said for his fanbase, and Last was on the receiving end of some really crappy fan rage ever since his one sided victory against Jaedong, who probably made his last ever push for a major trophy. Last practiced really hard, despite suffering from severe wrist pains, and felt like everybody wanted him to lose without even appreciating the effort he put in to breakdown the game into the finest details. He cried on stream after his defeat versus EffOrt, and said he doesn't want to compete anymore if such harassments continue.
I figured that he'd get some rage, but man it must be that bad if he also said he doesn't want to continue due to such harassment. I know Flash said something similar after he beat Jaedong in ASL2, but he's still around. Perhaps he can give Last some tips to dealing with these terrible people. Sad really.
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On October 24 2018 23:42 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 23:15 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 24 2018 21:55 Shinokuki wrote:
I hope people refrain from saying Terran should be nerfed or op. Last was crying and called flash about this ridiculous issues. Only Flash is able to perform what people imagine Terran opness to be. It's simply ridiculous to label terran race as op simply because flash is just too good. There was a stats since post kespa that combines all post leagues such as asl, vant, etc terrans had the lowest win rate despite flash probably raising that high. Also terran is LEAST played on ladder and the least popular race by far because of how hard it is. If the race is supposedly op how on earth is the 50% of population protoss? if you nerf terran bye bye to terran race.
This is also sensitive issue. all the bjs who have jokingly stated T op are apologizing sincerely to the fans and terrans. Many are suspecting that flash wanted to dominated shuttle with only tanks and did some show performance to say "such trash skills have the audacity to say T op without practicing hardcore like us? here is the gap in skills fool. this is for real? Jaedong is the most popular player in the scene as of today, and has the most annoying fandom ever as a result. While the dude himself is the epitome of good sportsmanly conduct, the same cannot be said for his fanbase, and Last was on the receiving end of some really crappy fan rage ever since his one sided victory against Jaedong, who probably made his last ever push for a major trophy. Last practiced really hard, despite suffering from severe wrist pains, and felt like everybody wanted him to lose without even appreciating the effort he put in to breakdown the game into the finest details. He cried on stream after his defeat versus EffOrt, and said he doesn't want to compete anymore if such harassments continue.
It's also Last's fault. I know these people are pretty young and not as accustomed to being oblivious to online bullying/hatred/trolling but at some point you have to understand that fanatics that are given a medium to expose their feelings will create such scenarios.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 25 2018 00:55 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 23:42 Letmelose wrote:On October 24 2018 23:15 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 24 2018 21:55 Shinokuki wrote:
I hope people refrain from saying Terran should be nerfed or op. Last was crying and called flash about this ridiculous issues. Only Flash is able to perform what people imagine Terran opness to be. It's simply ridiculous to label terran race as op simply because flash is just too good. There was a stats since post kespa that combines all post leagues such as asl, vant, etc terrans had the lowest win rate despite flash probably raising that high. Also terran is LEAST played on ladder and the least popular race by far because of how hard it is. If the race is supposedly op how on earth is the 50% of population protoss? if you nerf terran bye bye to terran race.
This is also sensitive issue. all the bjs who have jokingly stated T op are apologizing sincerely to the fans and terrans. Many are suspecting that flash wanted to dominated shuttle with only tanks and did some show performance to say "such trash skills have the audacity to say T op without practicing hardcore like us? here is the gap in skills fool. this is for real? Jaedong is the most popular player in the scene as of today, and has the most annoying fandom ever as a result. While the dude himself is the epitome of good sportsmanly conduct, the same cannot be said for his fanbase, and Last was on the receiving end of some really crappy fan rage ever since his one sided victory against Jaedong, who probably made his last ever push for a major trophy. Last practiced really hard, despite suffering from severe wrist pains, and felt like everybody wanted him to lose without even appreciating the effort he put in to breakdown the game into the finest details. He cried on stream after his defeat versus EffOrt, and said he doesn't want to compete anymore if such harassments continue. It's also Last's fault. I know these people are pretty young and not as accustomed to being oblivious to online bullying/hatred/trolling but at some point you have to understand that fanatics that are given a medium to expose their feelings will create such scenarios.
What? Please don't place blame on the victim...
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True answer to all these complaints is, no new players are joining brood war to develop race such as Terran. Sc2 was a god awful game and made no attempts to fix these mathematical upgrade inconsistencies, instead opting to replace all distinct and unique units with massive blob armies. Protoss upgrades are the worst of all 3 races. Yes some dev should have maybe seen this in 1998.
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I don't think anyone is playing Zerg or Protoss well enough to draw conclusions about racial balance in an objective sense, at least not while Flash's games are getting referenced.
And I can't imagine why Last gets even a modicum of hate for being an honest progamer. There are more than enough odd players worthy of ire or controversy outside of him
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Shutle made many mistake obv but he was Also playing the best of the best. Tbh i was impress by how well His Games loooked comparé of the PVT of mini vs flash.
Kinda Glad to see effort vs flash for the final because i dont expect any protoss to be able to béat flash .
To finish m'y tought i dont think flash would change race .. we dont know how long the bw hype Will last on kr ans hé should take the maximum of Money hé can from tourneys.
Him risking to lose by switching race is not Worth. Hé is not multi millionaire.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 25 2018 02:32 Yanokabo wrote:
True answer to all these complaints is, no new players are joining brood war to develop race such as Terran. Sc2 was a god awful game and made no attempts to fix these mathematical upgrade inconsistencies, instead opting to replace all distinct and unique units with massive blob armies. Protoss upgrades are the worst of all 3 races. Yes some dev should have maybe seen this in 1998.
Or the game is balanced well enough overall and people need to learn to play better. Shuttle and Mini's series vs Flash are some of the worst to draw conclusions from. This isn't a symmetric game, and the upgrades are fine overall.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 25 2018 03:08 Mirabel_ wrote:
I don't think anyone is playing Zerg or Protoss well enough to draw conclusions about racial balance in an objective sense, at least not while Flash's games are getting referenced.
And I can't imagine why Last gets even a modicum of hate for being an honest progamer. There are more than enough odd players worthy of ire or controversy outside of him
Fanboys can be obnoxious. I mean, just look at the LR for that match even on TL where it's civilized. Now imagine that in some of the previously mentioned sites.
It's the same for fans of sports or other games. Problem is that balance talk completely undermines the hard work of the players involved.
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On October 24 2018 23:37 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 21:05 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 16:48 Yanokabo wrote:
Maybe toss sheild upgrade should be combined with armor so they can keep pace with Terran mech? It’s unfair toss has to research 3 things when Terran has only 2. Ends up being an extra 800:800 minerals and gas just to match what Terran is doing. Shield is priced at a premium for toss also for some odd reason. Protoss upgrades are fine in pvz however. The issue is terran mech upgrades scale insanely well. I wish they would take like 25% longer to research. Yeah let's complain about upgrades, it's a mediocre PvT Protoss vs the best player right now and the greatest of all time. It must be cause upgrades are too good.
The statistics speak for themselves for the races as a whole.
https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/82758-tlpd-ask-for-stats
Granted I did choose to bring this up in the shuttle vs flash thread, however, I'm not necessarily singling out this series. Shuttle was obviously out classed here.
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On October 25 2018 01:13 BigFan wrote:
What? Please don't place blame on the victim...
No, really, Last's reaction is Last's fault. There is no doubt about that, how we deal with information is our own decision and no one else's.
In the face of the hateful words and insults we can stop and think like this. Those people say hateful stuff about me. There are two possibilities about the words - they are either true or they are false. If they are true, I should not be hurt by the words but even be thankful. Because truth is a good thing to know and no soul is willingly deprived of it. If they are false - then what do I care about lies and baseless hatred? False information should not have any effect on me. Let them flow around me, much like a river flows around a rock.
Having said that, I do find it distasteful and ugly to spew mindless hatred and to try to abuse people in any way. But it is bound to happen to any man who finds success in any field and that man has to learn how to deal properly with such situations.
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On October 25 2018 04:10 kidcrash wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 23:37 Dante08 wrote:On October 24 2018 21:05 kidcrash wrote:On October 24 2018 16:48 Yanokabo wrote:
Maybe toss sheild upgrade should be combined with armor so they can keep pace with Terran mech? It’s unfair toss has to research 3 things when Terran has only 2. Ends up being an extra 800:800 minerals and gas just to match what Terran is doing. Shield is priced at a premium for toss also for some odd reason. Protoss upgrades are fine in pvz however. The issue is terran mech upgrades scale insanely well. I wish they would take like 25% longer to research. Yeah let's complain about upgrades, it's a mediocre PvT Protoss vs the best player right now and the greatest of all time. It must be cause upgrades are too good. The statistics speak for themselves for the races as a whole. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/82758-tlpd-ask-for-statsGranted I did choose to bring this up in the shuttle vs flash thread, however, I'm not necessarily singling out this series. Shuttle was obviously out classed here.
So you want to kill off Terran race by nerfing it? Do you realize how rare Terrans are on ladder or are you just some casual fan? Do you realize how pathetically weak Terrans were during 2014-2016 when Protoss were just dominating Terrans on cb? People were saying even if flash comes he won’t be able to adapt to the meta but once he came what happened? 5 barrack +1 that was thought of as trash no quickly became build orders most used and then 5 rax 2 star and then perfected late mech and then 111. This is just one mu. By you saying this you are pretty much destroying Korean pro scene. Many omg t op are the reasons why flash was about to quit and top players such as last as well. Once flash quits what happens? Massive decline in viewership in asl because there is no best player competint. You are also forgetting the fact that flash practiced so much there is a FOOT LONG scar on his arm that still bothers him today. Have you also seen the insane stretch marks on his hand from practicing too much. You are basically discrediting the genius who worked extremely hard( probably the hardest) and through that he was able to become as he is today. And he is so good he beat mong 2-1 PVT and light 2-0. How can you explain T op? And also if you were to nerf Terrans who would play terran? Terran is already by far the hardest race to play but if you set it as even harder who would play. Back in the days Korean clans and teams were looking for Terrans and they just could not find any. They kept away Protoss because there were just TOO MANY OF THEM. So these teams are the cream of the crop when selecting already rare Terrans. So these geniuses probably figured out a way so that Terran race could be as good as other two by introducing many meta etc etc. You just don’t know bw if you say Terran op..
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On October 25 2018 05:37 JoinTheRain wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 01:13 BigFan wrote:
What? Please don't place blame on the victim... No, really, Last's reaction is Last's fault. There is no doubt about that, how we deal with information is our own decision and no one else's. In the face of the hateful words and insults we can stop and think like this. Those people say hateful stuff about me. There are two possibilities about the words - they are either true or they are false. If they are true, I should not be hurt by the words but even be thankful. Because truth is a good thing to know and no soul is willingly deprived of it. If they are false - then what do I care about lies and baseless hatred? False information should not have any effect on me. Let them flow around me, much like a river flows around a rock. Having said that, I do find it distasteful and ugly to spew mindless hatred and to try to abuse people in any way. But it is bound to happen to any man who finds success in any field and that man has to learn how to deal properly with such situations.
Don’t think you understand situation too well. Last after winning his first trophy received backlash and not compliments. This basically destroys his passion for streaming, gaming, and his career as streamer. He practiced so hard just to have many say it was useless. And his stream resolved around his top level skills and not his personality man. It’s understandable he cried
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EPT
