|
On April 18 2018 13:50 Miragee wrote:
Movie vs Mini wtf? Movie was up 35 supply, then he went full chobo against a control group of zealots in his main and lost all his probes. Then lost more vs 1 freaking DT while getting completely out-microed in the front battle. What the hell was that. Even if you don't put an observer in place to scout the top place (don't really get why you wouldn't but ok...) but his reaction was so freaking bad. Holy hell.
PvP has always been Movie's weakest matchup. To make matters worse he hasn't been practicing that much, and it showed. Had he simply practiced more he probably would have made it out of the group.
|
On April 18 2018 00:57 RowdierBob wrote:
Snow is really good on these maps. Flash might almost be an underdog. I think Flash will down vote Sparkle.
man flash has 63% win rate vs snow on these maps
|
On April 19 2018 00:54 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2018 00:57 RowdierBob wrote:
Snow is really good on these maps. Flash might almost be an underdog. I think Flash will down vote Sparkle. man flash has 63% win rate vs snow on these maps
how do you know?
|
On April 19 2018 02:33 [PennY]-ScT- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2018 00:54 Shinokuki wrote:On April 18 2018 00:57 RowdierBob wrote:
Snow is really good on these maps. Flash might almost be an underdog. I think Flash will down vote Sparkle. man flash has 63% win rate vs snow on these maps how do you know?
Sponsored matches winrate, I guess?
|
On April 18 2018 17:20 PVJ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2018 16:36 Miragee wrote:
Shuttle honestly played better than Rain in the Ro16. I don't think that's even debatable. Rain played a better vP than Shuttle though.
Against Movie who lost against a speed zealot runby in the late game earlier... Yes he played better but how much pressure you get from your opponent and how well he defends your harass always impacts how good your play is looking.
On April 18 2018 19:09 Dante08 wrote:
Is this were played on ASL1 to ASL4 maps I'm pretty sure Flash would win, but alot of ASL5 maps are just TvP graveyards. Combined with the unpredictability of TvP I think Snow has a really good chance.
Aside from Sparkle, they are just TvP graveyards because most terrans suck balls compared to top players of the other races atm. In a tournament format that is. They just don't play intelligently.
|
On April 19 2018 02:39 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2018 17:20 PVJ wrote:On April 18 2018 16:36 Miragee wrote:
Shuttle honestly played better than Rain in the Ro16. I don't think that's even debatable. Rain played a better vP than Shuttle though. Against Movie who lost against a speed zealot runby in the late game earlier... Yes he played better but how much pressure you get from your opponent and how well he defends your harass always impacts how good your play is looking.
My comment was (supposed to be) a joke, given that Shuttle didn't play any vP matches in the Ro16.
|
On April 19 2018 02:39 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2018 17:20 PVJ wrote:On April 18 2018 16:36 Miragee wrote:
Shuttle honestly played better than Rain in the Ro16. I don't think that's even debatable. Rain played a better vP than Shuttle though. Against Movie who lost against a speed zealot runby in the late game earlier... Yes he played better but how much pressure you get from your opponent and how well he defends your harass always impacts how good your play is looking. Show nested quote +On April 18 2018 19:09 Dante08 wrote:
Is this were played on ASL1 to ASL4 maps I'm pretty sure Flash would win, but alot of ASL5 maps are just TvP graveyards. Combined with the unpredictability of TvP I think Snow has a really good chance. Aside from Sparkle, they are just TvP graveyards because most terrans suck balls compared to top players of the other races atm. In a tournament format that is. They just don't play intelligently.
I would disagree that they suck balls. Sure, if you compare to Flash perhaps, but these are the best TvP players in the world we're talking about. I think Mind would have been knocked out early if he also had to face protoss on these maps.
It's easy to call every other terran bad when comparing to Flash.
The layouts on all ASL 5 maps makes TvP much harder than usual.
|
On April 19 2018 03:00 PVJ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2018 02:39 Miragee wrote:On April 18 2018 17:20 PVJ wrote:On April 18 2018 16:36 Miragee wrote:
Shuttle honestly played better than Rain in the Ro16. I don't think that's even debatable. Rain played a better vP than Shuttle though. Against Movie who lost against a speed zealot runby in the late game earlier... Yes he played better but how much pressure you get from your opponent and how well he defends your harass always impacts how good your play is looking. My comment was (supposed to be) a joke, given that Shuttle didn't play any vP matches in the Ro16.
Oh, I thought you were talking about the whole ASL.
On April 19 2018 03:02 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2018 02:39 Miragee wrote:On April 18 2018 17:20 PVJ wrote:On April 18 2018 16:36 Miragee wrote:
Shuttle honestly played better than Rain in the Ro16. I don't think that's even debatable. Rain played a better vP than Shuttle though. Against Movie who lost against a speed zealot runby in the late game earlier... Yes he played better but how much pressure you get from your opponent and how well he defends your harass always impacts how good your play is looking. On April 18 2018 19:09 Dante08 wrote:
Is this were played on ASL1 to ASL4 maps I'm pretty sure Flash would win, but alot of ASL5 maps are just TvP graveyards. Combined with the unpredictability of TvP I think Snow has a really good chance. Aside from Sparkle, they are just TvP graveyards because most terrans suck balls compared to top players of the other races atm. In a tournament format that is. They just don't play intelligently. I would disagree that they suck balls. Sure, if you compare to Flash perhaps, but these are the best TvP players in the world we're talking about. I think Mind would have been knocked out early if he also had to face protoss on these maps. It's easy to call every other terran bad when comparing to Flash. The layouts on all ASL 5 maps makes TvP much harder than usual.
Erm, no, I specifically said compared to top players of the other races, not Flash. I mean come on, Sea lost to Movie on Gladiator... He chose a subpar build order after doing decent damage in the early game, somehow got 60 supply down entering the late game, pushed out without 2-1 through the middle of the map. That are so many chobo mistakes... And Movie is, allegedly, not even practicing full-time. Rush scouted a proxy robo and started his engineering bay 1 minute later and tanked the first drop with marines instead of scvs... Light rambo rushed Shuttle with Marines off of Rax-CC into 3 Rax and Shuttle saw the marines coming... The only legitimate TvP losses without the terran messing up terribly were Mong vs Snow and Last vs Snow. The first one was on Sparkle and Mong did well with his strategy. I would put that loss on the map considering current knowledge and elaborateness of strategies on island maps. Last vs Snow was a toss-up because it was a complete all-in by Snow. So yeah, 1 loss in TvP in the entire ASL was due to maps. Not what I would call a map pool that is a terran graveyard. What we have seen throughout this ASL is terrans digging their own graves.
Generally I would say, and people have discussed that at length before, some of these maps such as Sparkle and Third World haven't seen enough play time to really say anything about balance. Hell, it took prodigy players months and months to figure out a counter strategy to certain builds on standard maps. That doesn't mean we can't make statements like "the map pool is a terran graveyard this ASL" because that might be true regardless of the balance that could be achieved over time. However, as I explained in my previous paragraph I don't think that's true at all.
//fixed the map for Sea vs Movie
|
TLADT24920 Posts
^ Sea lost to Movie on Gladiator, not Transistor. His first game was against Pusan on Sparkle which he won (we saw valks vs corsairs!). I agree otherwise. The skill level of terran players feels really subpar this ASL for some reason. Part of me wants to say that they are having a hard time adapting to the map pool but part of it might also be that some of them weren't preparing as hard as say Action was.
I mean, Light's play has felt lacking for ages now and Sea barely practices BW (he did the night before from what I hear). Mong played well but lost to an inform Snow and TvT to Last. Last made his new usual exit and Rush was outplayed by Mind on Sparkle then lost to Best after he went for a hidden third on Transistor lol. As for Sharp, I don't even remember anymore. His vZ has always been lacking and he got no TvTs to help him out.
As an example, light vs Shine on Sparkle. Light gets into a fantastic position with his drops then sits back and let's Shine take all over the map or what about last vs miso? Last might not have had a commending lead but he left Miso to just expand all over the bottom of the map and could've done something. He just sat back and let Miso build-up till he got crushed.
|
I think Shuttle will win Rain in ro8. Shuttle practices 24/7. Yeah I know rain has more talent probably but Shuttle has the drive to win.
|
On April 19 2018 05:16 BigFan wrote:
^ Sea lost to Movie on Gladiator, not Transistor. His first game was against Pusan on Sparkle which he won (we saw valks vs corsairs!). I agree otherwise. The skill level of terran players feels really subpar this ASL for some reason. Part of me wants to say that they are having a hard time adapting to the map pool but part of it might also be that some of them weren't preparing as hard as say Action was.
I mean, Light's play has felt lacking for ages now and Sea barely practices BW (he did the night before from what I hear). Mong played well but lost to an inform Snow and TvT to Last. Last made his new usual exit and Rush was outplayed by Mind on Sparkle then lost to Best after he went for a hidden third on Transistor lol. As for Sharp, I don't even remember anymore. His vZ has always been lacking and he got no TvTs to help him out.
As an example, light vs Shine on Sparkle. Light gets into a fantastic position with his drops then sits back and let's Shine take all over the map or what about last vs miso? Last might not have had a commending lead but he left Miso to just expand all over the bottom of the map and could've done something. He just sat back and let Miso build-up till he got crushed.
Ah true, Gladiator. Doesn't really invalidate my point though. I didn't address Pusan vs Sea because the terran won.
It was Light vs Shine with the drops. Light just never expanded. Killing a base or two while the zerg is constantly 3 bases ahead just doesn't work... I think I said it in the LR thread back then but iirc it was the game where Light got the wrong read on Shine's opener (4 hatch before pool).
I don't really know what I should say about ZvT on Sparkle. At least the ASL games looked like Terran playing to uneconomically, as in expanding way too late. It looked the exact same way in ZvP in the beginning, with the zerg teching fast and losing because the protoss was way ahead in the economic game. Zergs certainly adapted the fast mass expansion style in ZvT on Sparkle.
|
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 19 2018 06:17 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2018 05:16 BigFan wrote:
^ Sea lost to Movie on Gladiator, not Transistor. His first game was against Pusan on Sparkle which he won (we saw valks vs corsairs!). I agree otherwise. The skill level of terran players feels really subpar this ASL for some reason. Part of me wants to say that they are having a hard time adapting to the map pool but part of it might also be that some of them weren't preparing as hard as say Action was.
I mean, Light's play has felt lacking for ages now and Sea barely practices BW (he did the night before from what I hear). Mong played well but lost to an inform Snow and TvT to Last. Last made his new usual exit and Rush was outplayed by Mind on Sparkle then lost to Best after he went for a hidden third on Transistor lol. As for Sharp, I don't even remember anymore. His vZ has always been lacking and he got no TvTs to help him out.
As an example, light vs Shine on Sparkle. Light gets into a fantastic position with his drops then sits back and let's Shine take all over the map or what about last vs miso? Last might not have had a commending lead but he left Miso to just expand all over the bottom of the map and could've done something. He just sat back and let Miso build-up till he got crushed. Ah true, Gladiator. Doesn't really invalidate my point though. I didn't address Pusan vs Sea because the terran won. It was Light vs Shine with the drops. Light just never expanded. Killing a base or two while the zerg is constantly 3 bases ahead just doesn't work... I think I said it in the LR thread back then but iirc it was the game where Light got the wrong read on Shine's opener (4 hatch before pool). I don't really know what I should say about ZvT on Sparkle. At least the ASL games looked like Terran playing to uneconomically, as in expanding way too late. It looked the exact same way in ZvP in the beginning, with the zerg teching fast and losing because the protoss was way ahead in the economic game. Zergs certainly adapted the fast mass expansion style in ZvT on Sparkle.
I never said it did, was just making sure the correct map was there.
ya, that was my point. Light and Last both sat back and barely expanded imo, in comparison to their zerg opponent.
|
On April 19 2018 06:26 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2018 06:17 Miragee wrote:On April 19 2018 05:16 BigFan wrote:
^ Sea lost to Movie on Gladiator, not Transistor. His first game was against Pusan on Sparkle which he won (we saw valks vs corsairs!). I agree otherwise. The skill level of terran players feels really subpar this ASL for some reason. Part of me wants to say that they are having a hard time adapting to the map pool but part of it might also be that some of them weren't preparing as hard as say Action was.
I mean, Light's play has felt lacking for ages now and Sea barely practices BW (he did the night before from what I hear). Mong played well but lost to an inform Snow and TvT to Last. Last made his new usual exit and Rush was outplayed by Mind on Sparkle then lost to Best after he went for a hidden third on Transistor lol. As for Sharp, I don't even remember anymore. His vZ has always been lacking and he got no TvTs to help him out.
As an example, light vs Shine on Sparkle. Light gets into a fantastic position with his drops then sits back and let's Shine take all over the map or what about last vs miso? Last might not have had a commending lead but he left Miso to just expand all over the bottom of the map and could've done something. He just sat back and let Miso build-up till he got crushed. Ah true, Gladiator. Doesn't really invalidate my point though. I didn't address Pusan vs Sea because the terran won. It was Light vs Shine with the drops. Light just never expanded. Killing a base or two while the zerg is constantly 3 bases ahead just doesn't work... I think I said it in the LR thread back then but iirc it was the game where Light got the wrong read on Shine's opener (4 hatch before pool). I don't really know what I should say about ZvT on Sparkle. At least the ASL games looked like Terran playing to uneconomically, as in expanding way too late. It looked the exact same way in ZvP in the beginning, with the zerg teching fast and losing because the protoss was way ahead in the economic game. Zergs certainly adapted the fast mass expansion style in ZvT on Sparkle. I never said it did, was just making sure the correct map was there. ya, that was my point. Light and Last both sat back and barely expanded imo, in comparison to their zerg opponent.
Fixed it in the original post.
And yeah, I'm 99,9 % certain that terrans have better ways to deal with zergs on Sparkle than they have showed us so far.
|
Ro8 Is going to be awesome. Almost here. Couple days away.
|
Would be 10x more awesome if Jaedong was replaced by Shuttle though. Nothing against Shuttle, but a bo5 Rain vs JD to start the ro8 would have been perfect =)
|
On April 20 2018 06:39 TornadoSteve wrote:
Would be 10x more awesome if Jaedong was replaced by Shuttle though. Nothing against Shuttle, but a bo5 Rain vs JD to start the ro8 would have been perfect =)
After the Ro16 I would definitely take Shuttle over Rain in your scenario, lol.
|
Definately, but my point was an "upset" in the group C.
|
I don't really think of it as an upset tbh. I also predicted Jaedong to get out of the group (alongside Effort, how wrong I was^^) but in Bo1 ZvZs a lot can happen and JvZ doesn't exist anymore. There was a time when Jaedong nullified all the discussion about BO wins in ZvZ by winning like 78 % of ZvZs regardless of openings. However, that was back in 2009/2010 or so iirc. JvZ wasn't a thing anymore in the end of the Kespa-era. In fact, Hydra was probably the last dominant ZvZer before the switch happened. Larva and Effort are both no walk-overs so yeah, I knew there was a good chance for JD to not advance.
|
On April 20 2018 07:16 Miragee wrote:
JvZ doesn't exist anymore.
Maybe this is true on the whole, but that JvZ game from an ASL or two ago where Jaedong played brilliantly to overcome a huge deficit was just beautiful.
|
Let's go Rain, the mini-Bisu
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
