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On May 08 2007 05:03 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2007 04:58 PoP wrote:
I think this is the worst TvP performance I've seen in a while. Canata is like Midas: he absolutely blows when he's facing non-standard play. That's not generally true though. Take for example the game on Rush Hour where Pusan went double gate proxy DT vs Midas on Rush Hour.
Well I don't precisely recall that game but from what I remember that's mainly because Pusan failed to deal a fatal blow and kept insisting with DTs way too long instead of switching to goons, which would have been crucial.
I'm not saying these players are bad at adapting, just that they're usually looking extremely naive in their play. They pretty much don't see anything non-standard coming, and die if they weren't lucky enough to go for a build which counters it.
Midas' 2v2 game was another good example. Zeus didn't do anything the whole game except harrassing Gorush with a probe. Midas drops 2 DS full of m&m to Yellow while not scouting Zeus at all. Zeus just logically breaks the mineral wall and comes in with about 10 goons, which takes Midas totally off guard even though it was the most obvious thing ever.
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Melbourne5338 Posts
Midas' dropship was there to see a little of Zeus was mining that block too 
It was chased off by goons and corsairs.
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To be fair to Canata, Proxy gate in that location is hard to scout when you haven't mined open your base yet. Also, the DT hop was stopped on the bottom side by a vulture snipe but he didn't expect it from the top side also I guess.
You guys are dumb if you say SKT1 T's suck vs nonstandard play. Do you even remember which Team's terrans were uncheeseable? I mean sure, lately Midas died to a number of proxies and Canata is just weaker TvP than the rest, but every other team's terrans die just as easily early game.
Casy died in 4 minutes to Sheis, Hery died in 2 minutes to Casy, And Sheis died in 8 minutes to Bisu. Short games happen and sometimes it's not really mistakes as much as superior playing from the other.
Chalrenge didn't mess up a single DT hop and his vulture drop defence was sick. You guys look over that like it's nothing and blame Canata's bad play? Well his opening build already set him back vs proxy dt since the DT timing was ridiculously fast and he lost his initial drop vultures and losing those mines for nothing. Plus the timing was right prior Ebay and Acad completion. Canata had a scenario in his head and he was right on most of his reads, Chalrenge just sped his build up to be insanely fast with such a close proxy. If the DT walked across the map, Canata had that game sealed.
Also the PvZ Chalrenge game for example, I disagree with the 2nd probe scout being so slow. If the Z gets the 2nd expo hatch going, the probe can't scout it, and the choke was already blocked. Not to mention it's not uncommon at all to see 3 hatch in base play on Nemesis. I thought Lake just used a very nicely timed ABC build. Next time I hear some talk about Pros being amateur, ~_~ I might have to drive a brick through somebody's head. Make it gory and cool.
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Plus don't forget we obs with maphack on so it's easy to LOL @ comedies.
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On May 08 2007 07:01 SuperJongMan wrote:
To be fair to Canata, Proxy gate in that location is hard to scout when you haven't mined open your base yet. Also, the DT hop was stopped on the bottom side by a vulture snipe but he didn't expect it from the top side also I guess.
You guys are dumb if you say SKT1 T's suck vs nonstandard play. Do you even remember which Team's terrans were uncheeseable? I mean sure, lately Midas died to a number of proxies and Canata is just weaker TvP than the rest, but every other team's terrans die just as easily early game.
Well, Oov has been called uncheesable, and rightfully so (at least at the time). Boxer no idea, but he rarely ever was the one to be cheesed. 
... but Midas or Canata, uncheesable? No way. Those guys are the best in the world when it comes to straightup play, but they do look extremely vulnerable to cheese, and, again, pretty naïve most of the time. To be fair, I'm not totally sure about Canata because I haven't seen that much of him. But when it comes to Midas, everytime I see him lose, I basically keep wondering "what the HELL was he thinking?".
Three random, recent examples:
- again, today he basically totally forgot about ZeuS -- I don't see any other possible explanation ;
- few days ago, he seemed actually convinced TT would play a straightup PvT ;
- ~1 month (?) ago, vs Anytime, he didn't scout at all yet didn't get any detection against the proclaimed mister Dark Templar.
I could find older examples just as easily, like that game vs Savior where the latter basically expo'ed several times at really weird spots. Midas kept scouting the same, empty expo spots over and over, probably thinking Savior only had his nat. Then Savior rolled over him with 4 gas eco.
I'm probably making this a bigger deal than it actually is, but that's something I don't see (or, at least, so rarely) with players like Boxer, Nada or Oov, who tend to plan ahead in a clearly smarter way most of the time.
Oh and by the way don't get me wrong, I'm a T1 fan and I like Midas a lot. That's even probably the reason why I'm so critical.
Casy died in 4 minutes to Sheis, Hery died in 2 minutes to Casy, And Sheis died in 8 minutes to Bisu. Short games happen and sometimes it's not really mistakes as much as superior playing from the other.
Didn't watch those games, so dunno. I don't want to take away from Chalrenge's build and execution which where absolutely flawless. I'm just saying Canata would have died against any kind of DT build today, and even *far* earlier had Chalrenge gone for 1 base DT instead of fast expanding first.
Canata had a scenario in his head and he was right on most of his reads, Chalrenge just sped his build up to be insanely fast with such a close proxy. If the DT walked across the map, Canata had that game sealed.
What if Chalrenge went straight DT then?
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u gotta skate8152 Posts
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Canata vs PuSan on Rush Hour I think, not Midas?
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is it just me or the small vods all cut off at around 2 minutes. ??
ok nvm, i think it screws up if u dl more than one at a time
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wow that's really impressive from OGN
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can anyone recommend some games from today's proleague ? ;]
btw, who is this guy on the last pic, 3rd from left.
He reminds me young Boxer xD
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If Chalrenge went DT first, I don't think the vulture drop would have gone at all.
The DT's would arrive and 4 vultures would have been lying around.. completely changes the game.
Zeus crushing Midas wasn't so much him being cheesable as Midas being a bad candidate for 2v2 -_-;;
TT vs Midas, I mean, who knows? The game was proxy gate vs no rax CC. That's losing rock paper scissors. ~_~
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The game vs TT was losing rock paper scissors but his opponent was kind enough to hint at his choice of rock first by his "cheese style". Midas decided to pick scissors anyway. It's surprising that we can predict TT's strategy better than Midas, who plays this game 12 hours a day.
Midas could go so much further if he'd stop shooting himself in the foot doing things like CC first vs. cheesetoss or picking Savior twice.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
holy crap I am getting my ass kicked in liquidbet.
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On May 08 2007 10:34 SuperJongMan wrote:
If Chalrenge went DT first, I don't think the vulture drop would have gone at all.
The DT's would arrive and 4 vultures would have been lying around.. completely changes the game.
That's right, but he hadn't layed any mines around his main so he'd have been vulnerable even with 4 vults imho. Defending with spider mines is OK if you know it's coming, but if you don't, it's extremely risky. If DTs get around the CC and the SCVs, it's often too late.
Zeus crushing Midas wasn't so much him being cheesable as Midas being a bad candidate for 2v2 -_-;;
It wasn't even cheese. Just total carelessness, imo. Agreed that he's not the best 2v2er around, though.
TT vs Midas, I mean, who knows? The game was proxy gate vs no rax CC. That's losing rock paper scissors. ~_~
More like, knowing your opponent is gonna throw scissors, yet still throw paper. :/
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On May 08 2007 10:44 nova_442 wrote:
The game vs TT was losing rock paper scissors but his opponent was kind enough to hint at his choice of rock first by his "cheese style". Midas decided to pick scissors anyway. It's surprising that we can predict TT's strategy better than Midas, who plays this game 12 hours a day.
Ahah, you beat me to it.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On May 08 2007 08:29 Elsi wrote:
Canata vs PuSan on Rush Hour I think, not Midas? No.
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Also dont forget that Chalrenge on this map actually managed to lose to the two worst players in proleague - Hoony & Soo.
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if soo is one of the worst then what does that make reach, who he beat?
Soo's 3-1, that's gotta be some low quality shit you're smoking.
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EPT
