EPT[ASL3] Ro4 Soulkey vs Flash - Page 26
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
|
Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
| ||
|
jinfreaks
United States94 Posts
On May 29 2017 02:40 letian wrote: Lucky 4 pool and really weird game on Andromeda where Soulkey used islands to survive? If Flash went mech, it would be a completely different game. For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time. The map is huge and he simply could not do the same he did on Outsider without being continuously harassed given their initial positioning. And even in that game Soulkey did not micro scourge at all to keep science vessels count low. Go, rewatch Effort vs Flash, JD vs Flash games to understand how a zerg should play in order to win against him and make a ZvT series great not mediocre as it was today. you have to admit that soulkey had a well prepared build for the Andromeda map, getting the island expansion running early enough such that flash would have a hard time moving shuttles to that area, unlike in Outsider. I don't think flash mech transitioned due to not having two more gases after the first MnM push. He probably overestimated his "lead" after denying the soulkey's other main expansion not knowing the Soulkey's third was on the island and taken before his initial muta. With the initial low muta count flash shouldve known something was off, but I guess he thought it was going to be aggression considering how laid back he was playing then. For instance, a mass drop and forcing flash to divide his army or keep him in base, hence being unable to break soulkey's sunkenD. It also happens to be the few ways for zerg to deal with 5rax effectively under three hatch muta tactics wise. At the very least, soulkey tried to do something differently to compensate for his weakness in g1. It seemed clear that soulkey couldn't best flash in a standard game. Hence the straight to ultras games. Also flash has been practicing a lot of SKTerran style on stream, so it seems to be soulkey's best chance. | ||
|
BruMeister
United States90 Posts
| ||
|
letian
Germany4221 Posts
On May 29 2017 05:02 neobowman wrote: Holy fuck that was a great series. I haven't read everyone else's reactions but it seems that people are down on the games. I have no idea why. A lot of people seem to dislike any games that feature mistakes. Especially that last game, it was on a fucking knife's edge for the entire game, it was incredible to watch. Man. So suspenseful. Heart rate through the roof. The only game that was sort of disappointing was game 2 with the 4 pool, but even that, I was super happy to see a Zerg using that in a Bo5. Calling this series great is what I call being over-sentimental  Flash was never in danger. You guys overestimate Soulkey. Last JD vs Flash series this is what I call on edge and Flash was in danger and actually had to work hard to make through. The games against Soulkey were pure mm drilling hitting the right timings because Soulkey could not do a thing against terran in early game and against Flash this is like asking to be rolled over. Zerg has to get advantage. Go watch old PL ZvT matches and see how many of them zerg won doing nothing in early game. | ||
|
_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On May 29 2017 14:35 letian wrote: Calling this series great is what I call being over-sentimental Flash was never in danger. You guys overestimate Soulkey. Last JD vs Flash series this is what I call on edge and Flash was in danger and actually had to work hard to make through. The games against Soulkey were pure mm drilling hitting the right timings because Soulkey could not do a thing against terran in early game and against Flash this is like asking to be rolled over. Zerg has to get advantage. Go watch old PL ZvT matches and see how many of them zerg won doing nothing in early game. Did you unsee the huge advantage in G3 on outsider that Soulkey was having, he was bassically far ahead with dobule gas 2 evo, 2 defiler mounds, while flash was only medic marine, until the moment flash attacked nat with vessels he was totally outplayed. Flash won that game, because Soulkey choked hard and microed defilers and scourges like a D- iccup noob. These dropships was super easy to snipe actually, but he couldnt click on them/ or pull scourges back from them to not hit, like he want to lose on purpose. | ||
|
letian
Germany4221 Posts
On May 29 2017 06:08 Miragee wrote: In terms of pure mechanical skill, Soulkey came closer to beat Flash than JD last season imho. I would argue with that. JD came up with some clever builds which actually won him games last season and mechanically performed way better than Soulkey who could not even scourge control properly and relied on sunkens and muta tech in all his games. This is not how you win against Flash. Seriously guys, what happened to you critical thinking? | ||
|
juvenal
2448 Posts
On May 29 2017 02:40 letian wrote: For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time. I guess you missed the teamleague game where SoulKey demolished Flash's mech practically with ease. I feel like most your statements are baseless. Like, walk in the park series for Flash - what series did you watch? | ||
|
letian
Germany4221 Posts
On May 29 2017 14:42 _Animus_ wrote: Did you unsee the huge advantage in G3 on outsider that Soulkey was having, he was bassically far ahead with dobule gas 2 evo, 2 defiler mounds, while flash was only medic marine, until the moment flash attacked nat with vessels he was totally outplayed. Flash won that game, because Soulkey choked hard and microed defilers and scourges like a D- iccup noob. These dropships was super easy to snipe actually, but he couldnt click on them/ or pull scourges back from them to not hit, like he want to lose on purpose. Flash sent a single marine to harass 3h and Soulkey was forced to send 2 zerlings to kill it splitting his initial zerling group. So when Flash came knocking on the door with 7 marines Soulkey had -2 zerlings because the second one was still running back to defend top expand. All this accumulated into -6 drones, +2 early sunkens and +6 more zerlings. How much minerals is that. For terran losing 8 marines and two firebats (500, 50 gas) when Soulkey lost 300 + 175 + 175 + 150 = 800 minerals, most importantly mining time and workers. Flash lost only offensive units. What Soulkey should have done after that is equalize the damage with muta which never happened because Soulkey muta sucked and was useless. This set him back even further. Outsider was a downhill road from the moment Soulkey lost his drones. What advantage? Advantage having two gases does not have an immediate impact, it accumulates, grows. Flash didn't let this happen by shutting down 3h with his dropship play and Soulkey could not prevent this since he was already handicapped by his "strategic" sunkenD, Flash early push and his own poor micro. | ||
|
letian
Germany4221 Posts
On May 29 2017 15:01 juvenal wrote: letian is wrong, everybody else is right. I guess you missed the teamleague game where SoulKey demolished Flash's mech practically with ease. I feel like most your statements are baseless. Like, walk in the park series for Flash - what series did you watch? Don't nitpick my text. That was more an emotional evaluation. Soulkey crumbled under pressure and played worse that he usually does, didn't have any clever builds and on top poor execution of the "prepared" ones. So, if you like this kind of play you either a Flash fan and attempt to give him some credit or have a strange taste in ZvT games. | ||
|
juvenal
2448 Posts
On May 29 2017 15:18 letian wrote: Don't nitpick my text. That was more an emotional evaluation. Soulkey crumbled under pressure and played worse that he usually does, didn't have any clever builds and on top poor execution of the "prepared" ones. So, if you like this kind of play you either a Flash fan and attempt to give him some credit or have a strange taste in ZvT games. mate most of the people enjoyed the series and deem it worthy of its hype. So it's either all of us have strange taste in ZvT or you do, what do you reckon is more plausible. | ||
|
letian
Germany4221 Posts
On May 29 2017 06:18 Foxxan wrote: Yet you completely ignore the part where soulkey denied flash 4th base in game 4. This is a massively big thing if you go bio all game. You should know this yet you seem to not? Denying 4th and making it sound like an achievement. How bad were these ZvT semifinals? | ||
|
letian
Germany4221 Posts
On May 29 2017 15:21 juvenal wrote: mate most of the people enjoyed the series and deem it worthy of its hype. So it's either all of us have strange taste in ZvT or you do, what do you reckon is more plausible. "The majority is right". Good for me I guess. I prefer good mechanics and interesting builds in ZvT, none of those were demonstrated (except when Soulkey defended push on Outsider and then still lost drones). Flash played on point on the other hand, that's the only thing I enjoyed I think. | ||
|
Piste
6177 Posts
On May 29 2017 15:29 letian wrote: Denying 4th and making it sound like an achievement. How bad were these ZvT semifinals? Haha :D The series went 3-2, but it really felt more like 3-0 or 3-1. Soulkey just did not seem strong at all, but rather getting lucky with that 4pool and on Andromeda the map winning the game for him. I hope Shine has some builds left in his bag to give Flash better competition. God damn it Bisu.. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands4994 Posts
| ||
|
Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On May 29 2017 03:37 _Animus_ wrote: 4 pool inc. Doing dirty work since 1998 xD Should have 4-pooled on game 5... | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Game 1 was typical Flash, nothing too exciting. Loved the 4 pool in game 2, caught Flash offguard and won him the game. Nice to see it have some relevance at the pro level even if the chance of success is really low. Flash losing to a 4 pool made it even funnier! Game 3 was an interesting one. I love seeing the sunken bust, but Soulkey just held on and got that fourth gas. I think the scourge micro was intentional. That dance was great lol. I think it's easy to point and say, noob, micro better. In truth, if you don't control your scourge, they'll pause as they change directions so I think Soulkey was trying to prevent that from happening. Just so happened that Flash's micro was on point to dodge them and Soulkey might also mismicroed at times there. Also, though I get his strategy, I'm inclined to agree with those posters demanding lurkers in the game. Given, doubt it would've happened. Game 4 was Soulkey just getting a good standard game going and overwhelming Flash with a better eco. Good deny on the fourth. Mong, take note of how Flash killed the psi disruptors XD Game 5 was so hype. I think Soulkey morphed the mutalisks at the 9 due to timing. I think he realized that he's gradually losing the timing he wanted and was probably also feeling pressured so he went for it. I'm not sure if he would've won the game had he morphed them in space tbh. Flash had two starports and he even took a third so he could've moved his works, made several wraiths and with marine support, took them out. So imo, it was a calculated risk by Soulkey and not a mistake like some implied. Even with Soulkey having a worse eco, it looked like he might actually take the game. That is, until Flash managed to get the scan, move out to try and deny the third etc... Regardless, good damn game and fantastic watch. My only complaint in the whole series is that Soulkey's mutalisk micro is frankly terrible. Only decent time was game 5 when he was going in to snipe turrets, lone marines etc... In all the other games, his mutalisks just danced around the mnm while Flash would just keep moving around, make a quick dash back then continue. Yes, he wants to slow them down but let's face it, rushing the third is a good move in itself. You force the zerg to engage you and if you're someone like Flash who controls well, it's to your advantage too. | ||
|
Broodwar4lyf
304 Posts
| ||
|
Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On May 29 2017 16:33 Broodwar4lyf wrote: didn't jds or effort use 4pool vs God back before bw shut down its big tourneys? yeah i think bo7 jds 4pooled twice and lost one lol He did in the finals of Korean Air OSL Season 2, in Bo5. He used it in game 2 (which he won) and in game 3 (which he lost). | ||
|
Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On May 29 2017 14:45 letian wrote: I would argue with that. JD came up with some clever builds which actually won him games last season and mechanically performed way better than Soulkey who could not even scourge control properly and relied on sunkens and muta tech in all his games. This is not how you win against Flash. Seriously guys, what happened to you critical thinking? Jeadong came up with gimmick builds and was lucky to win two games with them. In the three games that he played straight and went for mutas, he got rolled over. There was no suspense there. Soulkey actually won a straight standard game 4. His play was nowhere as bad as you suggest. And definitely not worse than Jaedong's in ASL2. | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 29 2017 16:59 Lebesgue wrote: Jeadong came up with gimmick builds and was lucky to win two games with them. In the three games that he played straight and went for mutas, he got rolled over. There was no suspense there. Soulkey actually won a straight standard game 4. His play was nowhere as bad as you suggest. And definitely not worse than Jaedong's in ASL2. pretty much. Jaedong's hydra bust game 4 was fantastic but its no different than SK's 4 pool from game 2. If scouted, it can be defended against. Soulkey's game 4 on Andromeda was as interesting if not more than Jaedong's game 1 win and the game 5 of each series was as good imo. Heck, it was a lot closer here than with the way things went down last ASL with Flash. | ||
| ||
