In SC2, Soulkey was the best player in 2013, he won GSL, WCG(the last one, he got the chance since Innovation forfeited) and went to WCS Grand Final with points ranking No.1. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Soulkey
In SC2, Soulkey was the best player in 2013, he won GSL, WCG(the last one, he got the chance since Innovation forfeited) and went to WCS Grand Final with points ranking No.1. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Soulkey
Today' bo5 wiill be tough.
Damn, i never really appreciated how young Flash was when he blew up.
Flash said that the theme of this ASL for him is "revenge." He has already got his revenge on Last, and now will want to get it on Soulkey. When Flash talks like this, it is truly scary.
Btw, I can't believe how young Flash is and how young he was when he started tearing up the scene! I remember Soulkey as an up-and-coming Zerg when Flash was already firmly sitting at the top of the scene. But apparently Flash is younger than Soulkey :-O
On May 28 2017 15:00 Lebesgue wrote: Flash said that the theme of this ASL for him is "revenge." He has already got his revenge on Last, and now will want to get it on Soulkey. When Flash talks like this, it is truly scary.
Btw, I can't believe how young Flash is and how young he was when he started tearing up the scene! I remember Soulkey as an up-and-coming Zerg when Flash was already firmly sitting at the top of the scene. But apparently Flash is younger than Soulkey :-O
Soulkey was a oldboy when he emerged. I think Baby, Flash, Bogus and Sea in order had the youngest debut age. All of them as terran.
But srsly... rewatching the old BW Kespa days... soulkey doesn't bring any bag o builds with him nor can he compete in a standard game against flash in a BO5.... most probably flash in the finals... anything else is a surprise....
Why dont they have the interview after the games? Why ask the players beforehand how they are going to play? Why would they reveal that to their opponent? Would be much more interesting to ask them both afterwards about their thought processes concerning the actual games. Or maybe i just want BW to be more like Chess and less like WWE.
On May 28 2017 19:15 tanngard wrote: Why dont they have the interview after the games? Why ask the players beforehand how they are going to play? Why would they reveal that to their opponent? Would be much more interesting to ask them both afterwards about their thought processes concerning the actual games. Or maybe i just want BW to be more like Chess and less like WWE.
On May 28 2017 19:15 tanngard wrote: Why dont they have the interview after the games? Why ask the players beforehand how they are going to play? Why would they reveal that to their opponent? Would be much more interesting to ask them both afterwards about their thought processes concerning the actual games. Or maybe i just want BW to be more like Chess and less like WWE.
On May 28 2017 19:15 tanngard wrote: Why dont they have the interview after the games? Why ask the players beforehand how they are going to play? Why would they reveal that to their opponent? Would be much more interesting to ask them both afterwards about their thought processes concerning the actual games. Or maybe i just want BW to be more like Chess and less like WWE.
if you want the scene to actually grow again, it's probably better for it to be more like wwe and less like chess.
Seriously now, how ling will it take for zergs to understand that muta builds just don't work anymore? I mean last year JD went for mutas 3 times against flash, and lost all 3 easily. He went for lurkers once, and hydras once, won both game. 5rax broke 3 hatch muta...
Soulkey kept bleeding lings everywhere. it was actually pretty impressive how he held for the third but flash was also pretty slow there as well. but he was unable to deal with flash's reinforcements and skimped on a lot of defense at the natural.
zergs really need to find something to deal with the flash 5 rax. its been out for 2 years now and zergs just havent found an answer.
i doubt those muta's would have done anything even if he didnt lose them... there was way too few anyway... didnt he have enough time to get defilers out tho? i felt his hive was done for a while?
On May 28 2017 19:32 gamapg wrote: 3 hatch muta.... very 2007-2010(?).... hoping Shine innovates on this and the other zergs catch on...
i agree. i know the game has stabilized a lot in terms of meta game but you still see good strategies coming up. protoss going for the gateway first builds at their natural in PvZ became a thing and zergs had to learn how to deal with it in the few months it was new but they adapted. maybe its just flash so they just gave up trying to find a counter to it.
On May 28 2017 19:30 Starecat wrote: Everyone should cheer for Flash so we can avoid an awful finals.
Shine vs Soulkey would have potential to be 3 times the series Flash vs Shine will be.
you never know, with shine's bad of builds? I think his series against flash would be very entertaining to watch the strategies. who knows, maybe he has the perfect counter to the +1 5 rax and hes been saving it this entire time. he said in his interview that he was saving special builds for flash.
On May 28 2017 19:32 FlaShFTW wrote: Soulkey kept bleeding lings everywhere. it was actually pretty impressive how he held for the third but flash was also pretty slow there as well. but he was unable to deal with flash's reinforcements and skimped on a lot of defense at the natural.
zergs really need to find something to deal with the flash 5 rax. its been out for 2 years now and zergs just havent found an answer.
Not truuuuue. Larva and a lot of other Zerg players have recently just been going balls to the wall mid game aggression, even sacking the third base to do a massive counterattack with muta + 2 groups of lings. Soulkey played way too greedy and way too defensively.
On May 28 2017 19:32 FlaShFTW wrote: Soulkey kept bleeding lings everywhere. it was actually pretty impressive how he held for the third but flash was also pretty slow there as well. but he was unable to deal with flash's reinforcements and skimped on a lot of defense at the natural.
zergs really need to find something to deal with the flash 5 rax. its been out for 2 years now and zergs just havent found an answer.
Not truuuuue. Larva and a lot of other Zerg players have recently just been going balls to the wall mid game aggression, even sacking the third base to do a massive counterattack with muta + 2 groups of lings. Soulkey played way too greedy and way too defensively.
Exactly this. Can't wait to see Larva try again next season.
Why the fuck Flash went proxy rax on Camelot anyway? It is the best map in the pool for early pool (no pun intended) and Flash goes auto-lose build against it.
On May 28 2017 19:51 Meeii wrote: I'm pretty new to BW but what was the point with the barrack that far out? Was flash trying some kind of cheese or what?
On May 28 2017 19:51 Meeii wrote: I'm pretty new to BW but what was the point with the barrack that far out (in game 2)? Was flash trying some kind of cheese or what?
Fake 1 rax cc. Zerg scouts 1 rax no gas, gets killed by unexpected marine count
On May 28 2017 19:51 Meeii wrote: I'm pretty new to BW but what was the point with the barrack that far out (in game 2)? Was flash trying some kind of cheese or what?
Fake 1 rax cc. Zerg scouts 1 rax no gas, gets killed by unexpected marine count
Maybe if it was his second rax out there, with his first rax out there every zerg would know the rax was late hence why soulkey sent 2 of the lings to the rax
On May 28 2017 19:53 d(O.o)a wrote: Maybe if it was his second rax out there, with his first rax out there every zerg would know the rax was late hence why soulkey sent 2 of the lings to the rax
The proxy rax is on 8 supply and the in-base rax is on 11(standard timing). Zerg scouts only the normal rax with drone. Soulkey scouted the proxy rax with his overlord
On May 28 2017 19:53 d(O.o)a wrote: Maybe if it was his second rax out there, with his first rax out there every zerg would know the rax was late hence why soulkey sent 2 of the lings to the rax
The proxy rax is on 8 supply and the in-base rax is on 11(standard timing). Zerg scouts only the normal rax with drone. Soulkey scouted the proxy rax with his overlord
You do realize that doing BSB delays the second barracks? even if it's on the same supply it's far later. You don't just get +150 minerals for doing a rax before supply.
pretty solid casting by Artosis and Rapid(?) today. Very informative for a noob like myself, like talking about the difference of 4 rax to 5 rax or why would someone make double defiler mound.
I'm pretty sure that 2nd defiler mound was supposed to be a hydra den, vd instead of bd. pretty easy mistake to make, I've had it happen to me before, and they look basically the same while morphing.
After that he must've been very tilted, would've easily had lurkers in time for that if not for it.
On May 28 2017 20:05 d(O.o)a wrote: I'm pretty sure that 2nd defiler mound was supposed to be a hydra den, vd instead of bd. pretty easy mistake to make, I've had it happen to me before, and they look basically the same while morphing.
After that he must've been very tilted, would've easily had lurkers in time for that if not for it.
On May 28 2017 20:05 d(O.o)a wrote: I'm pretty sure that 2nd defiler mound was supposed to be a hydra den, vd instead of bd. pretty easy mistake to make, I've had it happen to me before, and they look basically the same while morphing.
After that he must've been very tilted, would've easily had lurkers in time for that if not for it.
its a specific style to get double defiler mound to resrarch both consume and plague at the same time. its standard when you have extra gas to speed up your timings.
On May 28 2017 20:05 d(O.o)a wrote: I'm pretty sure that 2nd defiler mound was supposed to be a hydra den, vd instead of bd. pretty easy mistake to make, I've had it happen to me before, and they look basically the same while morphing.
After that he must've been very tilted, would've easily had lurkers in time for that if not for it.
consume plague at the same time,double evolution for strong upgardes ling ultra defiler combo
On May 28 2017 20:04 Vuk_91 wrote: Yeah, why go for Lurkers, it's not like they are good against MnM right?
Im not sure if he even had a hydra den, his tech tree skipped something major right there.
Someone correct me if im wrong.
Reguardless though. Flash is lookin TOUGH with bio right now.
he did not have a hydra den. with that specific strategy you make a billion sunkens at the front while you stall for mass upgrades with ultralisks. you saw the cavern there but SK style smashes this build order sicne you're able to get out so many firebats and deal with swarm and lings so effectvily. really well done by flash, his bio control looks amazing as ever and i think we'll see more SK style from flash rather than always going for the mech switch.
On May 28 2017 20:05 d(O.o)a wrote: I'm pretty sure that 2nd defiler mound was supposed to be a hydra den, vd instead of bd. pretty easy mistake to make, I've had it happen to me before, and they look basically the same while morphing.
After that he must've been very tilted, would've easily had lurkers in time for that if not for it.
consume plague at the same time,double evolution for strong upgardes ling ultra defiler combo
Yeah, I don't think Soulkey made a mistake with his buildings either. There were quite a few times that I saw a zerg doing double mound in Kespa era to get quick Defiler upgrades. Lurkers are bad against SV getting pumped by 2 starports
On May 28 2017 20:04 Vuk_91 wrote: Yeah, why go for Lurkers, it's not like they are good against MnM right?
Im not sure if he even had a hydra den, his tech tree skipped something major right there.
Someone correct me if im wrong.
Reguardless though. Flash is lookin TOUGH with bio right now.
Hydra Den = 100/50. Instead of 2nd defiler mound + plague +ultra cavern, he could have had a hydra den, lurker upgrade and like 6 lurkers, with 4 bases and 4 gas. That's pretty much gg once he starts dropping.
On May 28 2017 20:05 d(O.o)a wrote: I'm pretty sure that 2nd defiler mound was supposed to be a hydra den, vd instead of bd. pretty easy mistake to make, I've had it happen to me before, and they look basically the same while morphing.
After that he must've been very tilted, would've easily had lurkers in time for that if not for it.
Nah his plan was to skip lurkers entirely and go straight to ultra + lings + defilers
On May 28 2017 20:04 Vuk_91 wrote: Yeah, why go for Lurkers, it's not like they are good against MnM right?
Im not sure if he even had a hydra den, his tech tree skipped something major right there.
Someone correct me if im wrong.
Reguardless though. Flash is lookin TOUGH with bio right now.
he did not have a hydra den. with that specific strategy you make a billion sunkens at the front while you stall for mass upgrades with ultralisks. you saw the cavern there but SK style smashes this build order sicne you're able to get out so many firebats and deal with swarm and lings so effectvily. really well done by flash, his bio control looks amazing as ever and i think we'll see more SK style from flash rather than always going for the mech switch.
On May 28 2017 20:04 Vuk_91 wrote: Yeah, why go for Lurkers, it's not like they are good against MnM right?
Im not sure if he even had a hydra den, his tech tree skipped something major right there.
Someone correct me if im wrong.
Reguardless though. Flash is lookin TOUGH with bio right now.
he did not have a hydra den. with that specific strategy you make a billion sunkens at the front while you stall for mass upgrades with ultralisks. you saw the cavern there but SK style smashes this build order sicne you're able to get out so many firebats and deal with swarm and lings so effectvily. really well done by flash, his bio control looks amazing as ever and i think we'll see more SK style from flash rather than always going for the mech switch.
I have just realized the irony of flash beating SK with SK terran.
If Flash is gonna be using SK Terran more I hope he busts out Battlecruisers as well. He was wrecking Zerg players left and right with them right after he came back to BW.
Soulkey lost it against Flash's early marine pressure, he was really far behind after that. Just SC2 made me realize how much tension the lack of good ingame statistics creates in BW among viewers of mediocre skill level.
On May 28 2017 20:04 Vuk_91 wrote: Yeah, why go for Lurkers, it's not like they are good against MnM right?
Im not sure if he even had a hydra den, his tech tree skipped something major right there.
Someone correct me if im wrong.
Reguardless though. Flash is lookin TOUGH with bio right now.
Hydra Den = 100/50. Instead of 2nd defiler mound + plague +ultra cavern, he could have had a hydra den, lurker upgrade and like 6 lurkers, with 4 bases and 4 gas. That's pretty much gg once he starts dropping.
6 lurkers against 6 science vessels. I guess i know who wins.
why do you all talking about lurkers on that map? you can definitely skip them and go for expands ling ultras mass, the only thing zerg needs to do is to keep their muta count adequate to stop the dropships and there is nothing that terran can do. Sunken up the natural, intercept dropships, gg, Soulkey did only the 1st part
On May 28 2017 20:11 marcesr wrote: Soulkey lost it against Flash's early marine pressure, he was really far behind after that. Just SC2 made me realize how much tension the lack of good ingame statistics creates in BW among viewers of mediocre skill level.
On May 28 2017 20:11 marcesr wrote: Soulkey lost it against Flash's early marine pressure, he was really far behind after that. Just SC2 made me realize how much tension the lack of good ingame statistics creates in BW among viewers of mediocre skill level.
Presence of ingame statistics makes it even more confusing because you will quickly find out that Zergs are often far behind on supply and it never reflects their in-game position.
On May 28 2017 20:04 Vuk_91 wrote: Yeah, why go for Lurkers, it's not like they are good against MnM right?
Im not sure if he even had a hydra den, his tech tree skipped something major right there.
Someone correct me if im wrong.
Reguardless though. Flash is lookin TOUGH with bio right now.
Hydra Den = 100/50. Instead of 2nd defiler mound + plague +ultra cavern, he could have had a hydra den, lurker upgrade and like 6 lurkers, with 4 bases and 4 gas. That's pretty much gg once he starts dropping.
so you are saying that hydra den + lurker upgrade + 6 hydras + 6 lurkers cost the same as defiler mound+plague+ultra cavern? cool story bro. Plus shitload of science vessels which irradiate your lurkers to death.
On May 28 2017 20:04 Vuk_91 wrote: Yeah, why go for Lurkers, it's not like they are good against MnM right?
Im not sure if he even had a hydra den, his tech tree skipped something major right there.
Someone correct me if im wrong.
Reguardless though. Flash is lookin TOUGH with bio right now.
Hydra Den = 100/50. Instead of 2nd defiler mound + plague +ultra cavern, he could have had a hydra den, lurker upgrade and like 6 lurkers, with 4 bases and 4 gas. That's pretty much gg once he starts dropping.
6 lurkers against 6 science vessels. I guess i know who wins.
It's not like ultras fair any better. Lurkers are zerg's midgame for exactly the reason we just saw. Ultras take too long. He had a nydus up at that double gas for ages and could've easily sent in lurkers to hold that. Not to mention flash only had 2 vessels.
that game was a lot closer than it looked imo, soulkey just needed slightly more delay on the dropshpis with the scourge. he actually had the scourge in place for the first dropship play, but the problem is, dropships can be microed, but scourge are literally the dumbest units in the game so soulkey got rocked by soulkeys. he was like 30s - 1m from his first ultras coming out i think, if he succesfully delayed a single wave of dropships it woulve been a much closer game.
On May 28 2017 20:11 M2 wrote: why do you all talking about lurkers on that map? you can definitely skip them and go for expands ling ultras mass, the only thing zerg needs to do is to keep their muta count adequate to stop the dropships and there is nothing that terran can do. Sunken up the natural, intercept dropships, gg, Soulkey did only the 1st part
Sure, but if you want to skip lurkers than build 3 sunks at all expos, or did he seriously expected to catch every single dropship with scourge?
when you spend money building 10+ sunkens outside your natural so you don't die while teching to tier 3 units and TLers call you stupid for not buying lurkers
On May 28 2017 20:11 M2 wrote: why do you all talking about lurkers on that map? you can definitely skip them and go for expands ling ultras mass, the only thing zerg needs to do is to keep their muta count adequate to stop the dropships and there is nothing that terran can do. Sunken up the natural, intercept dropships, gg, Soulkey did only the 1st part
He tried to intercept first bunch of dropships but got screwed by defensive matrix and bad position to engage dropships in.
On May 28 2017 20:14 Epithet wrote: Today I learned it is SK terran (for the player soulkey) and not SKT terran for the team. Only took me like 8 years to learn this...
I feel bad for laughing a bit. Seul Ki Terran style; years before SK Telecom even entered SC esports.
What's the score? The main page results graphics say one player won the last game, but the last few posts seem to suggest the other player did.
(I'm outside, without a smooth connection. I appreciate the effort and creativity put into this LR, but perhaps the results section could be made more edit-friendly and viewer-friendly. Sorry for the minor whine!)
On May 28 2017 20:21 RKC wrote: What's the score? The main page results graphics say one player won the last game, but the last few posts seem to suggest the other player did.
(I'm outside, without a smooth connection. I appreciate the effort and creativity put into this LR, but perhaps the results section could be made mobile-friendly. Sorry for the minor whine!)
On May 28 2017 20:21 RKC wrote: What's the score? The main page results graphics say one player won the last game, but the last few posts seem to suggest the other player did.
(I'm outside, without a smooth connection. I appreciate the effort and creativity put into this LR, but perhaps the results section could be made mobile-friendly. Sorry for the minor whine!)
On May 28 2017 20:14 Epithet wrote: Today I learned it is SK terran (for the player soulkey) and not SKT terran for the team. Only took me like 8 years to learn this...
I feel bad for laughing a bit. Seul Ki Terran style; years before SK Telecom even entered SC esports.
If I provide a chuckle, I don't mind . Whenever people said SK terran i always thought it was a famous strat made popular by such SKT terrans as Fantasy and the like (which in retrospect makes little sense, haha).
On May 28 2017 20:33 d(O.o)a wrote: was I mistaken or did flash try to take 5 before 6? Seems silly not to take that island with that many drops earlygame.
On May 28 2017 20:33 d(O.o)a wrote: was I mistaken or did flash try to take 5 before 6? Seems silly not to take that island with that many drops earlygame.
Ye I agree, no reason for Flash not to take it, would have save him quite some trouble.
Does anyone think Shine is more worried he will have to play Soulkey? 'Bag of Builds' doesn't really work in ZvZ and Soulkey has the advantage in that matchup.
On May 28 2017 20:34 Starecat wrote: Every time i saw a SK Terran live they lost horrible on the late game, is it a legit build?
it utliizes double starport capabilities to get up a ton of dropships and vessels to spread the zerg thin. flash's problem was tha he stopped making dropships and committed to vessels which allowed soulkey to not have to worry about defense back at home.
On May 28 2017 20:35 BisuDagger wrote: Man this is finals worthy.
Does anyone think Shine is more worried he will have to play Soulkey? 'Bag of Builds' doesn't really work in ZvZ and Soulkey has the advantage in that matchup.
ZvZ = raw milk. doesnt have time to ferment the cheese.
On May 28 2017 20:33 d(O.o)a wrote: was I mistaken or did flash try to take 5 before 6? Seems silly not to take that island with that many drops earlygame.
I thought this as well. I don't think he even attempted to take this base? Would have been hard to stop it with just ling ultra defiler.
On May 28 2017 20:35 BisuDagger wrote: Man this is finals worthy.
Does anyone think Shine is more worried he will have to play Soulkey? 'Bag of Builds' doesn't really work in ZvZ and Soulkey has the advantage in that matchup.
Shine has 100% winrate against SK in BW officials, doesn't he?
On May 28 2017 20:33 d(O.o)a wrote: was I mistaken or did flash try to take 5 before 6? Seems silly not to take that island with that many drops earlygame.
I thought this as well. I don't think he even attempted to take this base? Would have been hard to stop it with just ling ultra defiler.
doom drops are very potent unless flash was able to scout out the mass ovs. but i agree, definitely shouldve taken 6 for himself rather than 5.
On May 28 2017 20:35 BisuDagger wrote: Man this is finals worthy.
Does anyone think Shine is more worried he will have to play Soulkey? 'Bag of Builds' doesn't really work in ZvZ and Soulkey has the advantage in that matchup.
ZvZ = raw milk. doesnt have time to ferment the cheese.
On May 28 2017 20:37 reminisce12 wrote: Why flash didn't utilise drops that game..
he did. but they werent effective. he only dropped to the top right once and didnt really try to drop at the 12 which was a huge flaw. soulkey's economy was untouched that game.
On May 28 2017 20:37 reminisce12 wrote: Why flash didn't utilise drops that game..
The timing was also so that if flash made two dropships first before the vessels he could lokse to the defilers which were earlier this game as SK was not behind like he was on outsider
On May 28 2017 20:35 BisuDagger wrote: Man this is finals worthy.
Does anyone think Shine is more worried he will have to play Soulkey? 'Bag of Builds' doesn't really work in ZvZ and Soulkey has the advantage in that matchup.
ZvZ = raw milk. doesnt have time to ferment the cheese.
On May 28 2017 20:41 Eleonora wrote: I don't understand, i thought FlaSh was supposed to win this 3 - 0 without blinking before 3 - 0ing Shine on one hand ? What happened ?
Andro = good zerg map. and flash also got 4 poold.
On May 28 2017 20:41 Eleonora wrote: I don't understand, i thought FlaSh was supposed to win this 3 - 0 without blinking before 3 - 0ing Shine on one hand ? What happened ?
On May 28 2017 20:40 lolfail9001 wrote: Where is make lurkers guy, by the way?
If you mean me I absolutely stand by that soulkey had to make lurkers in that outsider game. Compare the surface area of the island, main, natural, and mineral only in andromeda to the surface area of the entire right side of the map, as well as the left mineral only, and the natural in outsider. Add to it the fact that soulkey took a massive hit to his eco in the early game that game and that outsider is a very popular map for heavy dropship play.
Lurker defiler would've held that double gas area and soulkey would've been much further ahead.
On May 28 2017 20:41 Eleonora wrote: I don't understand, i thought FlaSh was supposed to win this 3 - 0 without blinking before 3 - 0ing Shine on one hand ? What happened ?
that kind of thing very rarely ever happens in sport (a player dominating every single other player in a tournament)
On May 28 2017 20:41 Eleonora wrote: I don't understand, i thought FlaSh was supposed to win this 3 - 0 without blinking before 3 - 0ing Shine on one hand ? What happened ?
Andro = good zerg map. and flash also got 4 poold.
Oh so that's why, as long as the map isn't Zerg favored FlaSh just won't lose. Ok i get it, thanks a lot. Must be interesting hearing you commentating, should hop in.
That was a great series, and this promises 2 more good series hopefully. I really hope Shine can bust out something against flash, and the bisu vs. soulkey matchup is going to be great hopefully.
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
pretty intense set, really fun. Sad we won't see the finals we deserve in the 3rd place set, but i guess bisu can still show us his redeeming pvz as long as he doesn't get cheesed T_T
On May 28 2017 20:58 -Kyo- wrote: pretty intense set, really fun. Sad we won't see the finals we deserve in the 3rd place set, but i guess bisu can still show us his redeeming pvz as long as he doesn't get cheesed T_T
He has a good matchup against SK. SK also looks gutted after the BO5 today. 3-1 Bisu
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often.
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often.
ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know
I think that 3rd place match just added yesterday.
it was said multiple times since the beginning of the season in the streams and in the forum that there was to be a 3rd place match. Just today Artosis and Rapid said it multiple times
PS: The 3rd match doesn't show up in the bracket unless infos are added. Until yesterday we obviously didn't knew any player who would play
I think that the skill level is as high as ever, but there seems to be a lot of choking onstage, possibly because without Proleague and two individual leagues players just spend less time playing in front of live crowds and aren't as used to it.
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
You have to understand these pros are multitasking like crazy. In the same way that Best didnt hold position on the ramp which pretty must lost him the semi final position.. you cant expect someone doing 300-400 actions per minute to have all those actions absolutely perfect.
Now you're probably going to say "but this action was MORE important and lost the game"... but if a pro misses ANY action, it can cost them the game. Forgetting upgrades, forgetting to click workers onto minerals, running mutas over marines, not macroing efficiently..etc
On May 28 2017 20:56 sAw wrote: This is painful to watch
BW is reviving but the current top level would not even qualify for the starleagues of the peak period.
That's not true, today's level is definitely higher. And actually I'm so impressed by Shine, that I feel we'll have a fantastic finals! And also very nice 3rd place match.
On May 28 2017 21:02 d(O.o)a wrote: I'm expecting to see some ensnare out of Shine
On May 28 2017 20:56 sAw wrote: This is painful to watch
BW is reviving but the current top level would not even qualify for the starleagues of the peak period.
uwotm8 lmfao
This is almost as stupid as the people that say the 2009-2011 foreign pros couldn't compete nowadays.
He is not particularly wrong. Consider that observer of that series is the one who is going to play Flash next week.
How is that relevant in any way? Does observing promatches somehow make him less qualified to play in them? Shine was a pro in that era too btw and he plays FAR better than he did back then.
I'm sure Jaedong was observing that match from home, does that make him less of a competitor?
On May 28 2017 21:04 gngfn wrote: I think that the skill level is as high as ever, but there seems to be a lot of choking onstage, possibly because without Proleague and two individual leagues players just spend less time playing in front of live crowds and aren't as used to it.
On May 28 2017 20:56 sAw wrote: This is painful to watch
BW is reviving but the current top level would not even qualify for the starleagues of the peak period.
That's not true, today's level is definitely higher. And actually I'm so impressed by Shine, that I feel we'll have a fantastic finals! And also very nice 3rd place match.
Sea and Mong have also improved tremendously. Sea from the past would never have been able to 3-0 Bisu.
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
Same here.
Its cause Brood War is very very hard, even the pros are always making mistakes, I cant think of one game where they haven't made mistakes.
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often.
ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know
But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is.
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often.
ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know
But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is.
because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere?
this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him.
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often.
ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know
But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is.
because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere?
this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him.
And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit by marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy.
Shine has really been impressive and fun to watch lately, I really hope he can rise up to the challenge so we all can enjoy an epic finals. I know most people see Shine as a "meme" player, but he has proven us all wrong time and time again. One way or the other, I expect the finals won't last very long. Shine will probably tend to avoid late game, surely he will have some cute builds and tricks prepared (ensnare, infested cc, who knows?), but to hide something successfully from Flash is another problem altogether.
On topic, Soulkey put up a very good fight today, not many players can take Flash to game 5. I still feel we haven't seen the peak of SK's play, he has a lot of potential. One of my favourite Zergs, that's for sure. <3
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often.
ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know
But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is.
because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere?
this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him.
And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit my marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy.
upgrades are also integral to your game plan. stork once forgot goon range in a pvp. terrans forget marine range. bro, it happens. Killer vs Mind forgot crack ling upgrades in late game. Ive forgotten siege mode a few times.
I've run out of the house without my wallet, phone, keys, etc. I've gotten into my car before without keys because i was under pressure and in a huge rush. those are pretty obivious and integral to daily life. it will happen. and as often as that happens we, humans, will still mess up. we'll still forget things in moments of time and need because our brain is already going in over drive, its too much for it to handle. Look up Apollo Robbins and his videos about pickpocketing and the human mind, very powerful stuff. these guys have so much in their heads, macroing, microing, rehotkeying their army, mutalisk control. 400 apm = 6.5 actions PER SECOND. that is insane to keep up with. these players are pushing the limit of human mentality and what you can do with your brain.
When you're trying to hit timings that are so thin you couldnt slide a paper through it, when you're in that crunch time to get those guardians out ASAP, you will mess up. Soulkey messed up and he paid for it.
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often.
ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know
But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is.
because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere?
this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him.
And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit by marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy.
Could it have been a calculated risk that Soulkey took, to not wait for the mutas and morph them, so he could micro elsewhere?
I recommend watching more pro FPVODs/streams. For every "mistake" caught on camera, they had to do 10 things right. Their actions are way faster than I can see.
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often.
ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know
But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is.
because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere?
this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him.
And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit my marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy.
upgrades are also integral to your game plan. stork once forgot goon range in a pvp. terrans forget marine range. bro, it happens. Killer vs Mind forgot crack ling upgrades in late game. Ive forgotten siege mode a few times.
I've run out of the house without my wallet, phone, keys, etc. I've gotten into my car before without keys because i was under pressure and in a huge rush. those are pretty obivious and integral to daily life. it will happen. and as often as that happens we, humans, will still mess up. we'll still forget things in moments of time and need because our brain is already going in over drive, its too much for it to handle. Look up Apollo Robbins and his videos about pickpocketing and the human mind, very powerful stuff. these guys have so much in their heads, macroing, microing, rehotkeying their army, mutalisk control. 400 apm = 6.5 actions PER SECOND. that is insane to keep up with. these players are pushing the limit of human mentality and what you can do with your brain.
When you're trying to hit timings that are so thin you couldnt slide a paper through it, when you're in that crunch time to get those guardians out ASAP, you will mess up. Soulkey messed up and he paid for it.
If you are forgetting the upgrades because you have multiple tasks going on INSIDE your brain at once, i can forgive you forgetting about it. Even if they are really important. But if you have already clicked on the armory and you are looking at the weapon upgrade and you STILL forget about it - can you really be excused? And that is basically what it looks like is happening with those guardians.
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often.
ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know
But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is.
because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere?
this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him.
And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit by marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy.
Could it have been a calculated risk that Soulkey took, to not wait for the mutas and morph them, so he could micro elsewhere?
Thank you. This is a possibility i was looking for. But could any top zerg players confirm it?
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often.
ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know
But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is.
because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere?
this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him.
And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit by marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy.
Could it have been a calculated risk that Soulkey took, to not wait for the mutas and morph them, so he could micro elsewhere?
Thank you. This is a possibility i was looking for. But could any top zerg players confirm it?
There's not much to it really, it's just a mistake by Soulkey and it normally wouldn't be an issue against other Terrans but Flash is Flash.
On May 28 2017 21:36 Terrorbladder wrote: I recommend watching more pro FPVODs/streams. For every "mistake" caught on camera, they had to do 10 things right. Their actions are way faster than I can see.
On May 28 2017 21:09 Highgamer wrote: For every mistake you see you see them solve 10 situations marvelously, you just don't think of them then.
nice plagiarism bro xD...
I mean, we had the same thought obviously...
Still some people will keep on thinking a korean becomes a robot when becoming a progamer...
On May 28 2017 21:36 Terrorbladder wrote: I recommend watching more pro FPVODs/streams. For every "mistake" caught on camera, they had to do 10 things right. Their actions are way faster than I can see.
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often.
ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know
But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is.
because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere?
this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him.
And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit by marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy.
I think it's a little more complicated than that. Soulkey was far behind from his failed early lings. Gaurdian midgames are touch to pull off as is. It could be Soulkey felt he was all in or close to it and wanted these gaurdians in the fight as soon as possible, not hitting the gas from the side. Further, any damage the cocoon takes while morphing is meaningless when the morph finishes, so marine shots on the cocoons are wasted if they don't finish the kill in time. Marines also have to run into range to get those shots and so run into the stream of zerglings. The morphing gaurdians act as a sort of gamble then.
Morphing gaurdians over the bridges can be nice if it forces marines to get stuck on the choke and glitch out. Morphing them farther back can be nice if it forces marines past the bridges and allows for a surround or run by. All this requires you have a strong sense of exactly where the fight will happen and on what scale.
Overall, there were certainly mistakes, but I think it's harder than simply saying "oh morph em over space 100% of the time."
On May 28 2017 20:56 d(O.o)a wrote: That would've been so much scarier if soulkey had morphed them all on the space ground where rines couldn't hit them.
To be honest I still don't understand how pros make little mistakes like these that constantly cost them the game.
I know! I dont understand why zergs does that. It happens often.
ever heard of pressure humans aren't robots you know
But i dont understand why they morph them in shooting distance of marines. Do you? I have a lot of respect for pressure and the players, but this one seems so easy. You just move them a little to the left to safety. When this stuff keeps happening you would imagine these great players making mental notes to remember and not let pressure get to them. Its not like forgetting an upgrade or something, because that is a mistake you are not expecting to make. This one is.
because under pressure, you forget things. have you ever forgotten things while trying to rush to work or going somewhere?
this game is so intense, you will make small mistakes. it cost him.
And that is why i say its ok to forget stuff like you upgrades and shit when under pressure. But this is so fucking obvious and integral to your entire gameplan. AND its a mistake they keep on repeating. If you kept on forgetting to plant your third base after sending a drone to the third base location. You would expect that thats a mistake you would not keep happening right? All you have to do is make a mental note that every time i'm going to morph guardians, i morph them in a spot were they are not going to be hit by marines, especially when that spot is easy to reach. You dont make mental notes about all the other thousands things that can go wrong, because you have to trust you brain to remeber that. But those guardians are the most important thing in his strategy.
I think it's a little more complicated than that. Soulkey was far behind from his failed early lings. Gaurdian midgames are touch to pull off as is. It could be Soulkey felt he was all in or close to it and wanted these gaurdians in the fight as soon as possible, not hitting the gas from the side. Further, any damage the cocoon takes while morphing is meaningless when the morph finishes, so marine shots on the cocoons are wasted if they don't finish the kill in time. Marines also have to run into range to get those shots and so run into the stream of zerglings. The morphing gaurdians act as a sort of gamble then.
Morphing gaurdians over the bridges can be nice if it forces marines to get stuck on the choke and glitch out. Morphing them farther back can be nice if it forces marines past the bridges and allows for a surround or run by. All this requires you have a strong sense of exactly where the fight will happen and on what scale.
Overall, there were certainly mistakes, but I think it's harder than simply saying "oh morph em over space 100% of the time."
Thank you for the interesting post. I agree, it does seem like a gamble and not a simple mistake. Now my mind is at peace.
On May 28 2017 21:36 Terrorbladder wrote: I recommend watching more pro FPVODs/streams. For every "mistake" caught on camera, they had to do 10 things right. Their actions are way faster than I can see.
On May 28 2017 21:09 Highgamer wrote: For every mistake you see you see them solve 10 situations marvelously, you just don't think of them then.
nice plagiarism bro xD...
I mean, we had the same thought obviously...
Still some people will keep on thinking a korean becomes a robot when becoming a progamer...
If you are referring to me as one of those people you would be definitively off point. I usually always defend progamers from those kinds of demands. But in this case this seemed like too much of an obvious mistake to make. And that is probably, with the help from the posts from phyren and flashimba, i now see that it was not an as obvious mistake, but more of an real time calculated risk. It might have been the wrong risk to take (i dont know), but it was not as simple as just forgetting to put the guardians in a safe position which it looked liked to me initially and which caused my troubled state of mind.
On May 28 2017 21:06 VioleTAK wrote: That's not true, today's level is definitely higher.
Is it really? I feel like the insane amount of hours spent in the team houses made the players shaper in a lot of things.
Now I don't follow the scene that closely, I watch every single ASL match but quite little outside of that. Some SSL and some fpvods but not that much.
So, I am not saying that my view is correct or anything, please, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
But to me, games today feel a bit more chaotic than they used to during the prime kespa-era.
Players don't feel quite as sharp in their build and not quite up to par with their multitasking at times.
But the meta has shifted as well so it is hard to make a 1:1 comparison. I see a more diverse range of tactics played out, and not only Shines bag of builds, but overall the strategies doesn't feel as static as they did during the end of the kespa era.
Are players not quite as sharp so that broadens the meta a bit or has the meta broadened so that it is harder to stay as sharp? Or am I just way off base because I haven't watched enough games
On May 28 2017 21:06 VioleTAK wrote: That's not true, today's level is definitely higher.
Is it really? I feel like the insane amount of hours spent in the team houses made the players shaper in a lot of things.
Now I don't follow the scene that closely, I watch every single ASL match but quite little outside of that. Some SSL and some fpvods but not that much.
So, I am not saying that my view is correct or anything, please, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
But to me, games today feel a bit more chaotic than they used to during the prime kespa-era.
Players don't feel quite as sharp in their build and not quite up to par with their multitasking at times.
But the meta has shifted as well so it is hard to make a 1:1 comparison. I see a more diverse range of tactics played out, and not only Shines bag of builds, but overall the strategies doesn't feel as static as they did during the end of the kespa era.
Are players not quite as sharp so that broadens the meta a bit or has the meta broadened so that it is harder to stay as sharp? Or am I just way off base because I haven't watched enough games
According to what Zero said, the players are less sharp because of less practice. On the other hand Hero has stated that he has gained a deeper and holistic understanding of the game.
On May 28 2017 21:06 VioleTAK wrote: That's not true, today's level is definitely higher.
Is it really? I feel like the insane amount of hours spent in the team houses made the players shaper in a lot of things.
Now I don't follow the scene that closely, I watch every single ASL match but quite little outside of that. Some SSL and some fpvods but not that much.
So, I am not saying that my view is correct or anything, please, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
But to me, games today feel a bit more chaotic than they used to during the prime kespa-era.
Players don't feel quite as sharp in their build and not quite up to par with their multitasking at times.
But the meta has shifted as well so it is hard to make a 1:1 comparison. I see a more diverse range of tactics played out, and not only Shines bag of builds, but overall the strategies doesn't feel as static as they did during the end of the kespa era.
Are players not quite as sharp so that broadens the meta a bit or has the meta broadened so that it is harder to stay as sharp? Or am I just way off base because I haven't watched enough games
Strategically the players might be better now but mechanically they were way better during the Kespa era. Nowadays they practice according to their own free time compared to 8-10 hours a day when they were in pro-gaming houses. Even Flash said in an interview somewhere he is more developed strategically but mechanically he was no where near compared to is Kespa days.
On May 28 2017 20:56 sAw wrote: This is painful to watch
BW is reviving but the current top level would not even qualify for the starleagues of the peak period.
uwotm8 lmfao
This is almost as stupid as the people that say the 2009-2011 foreign pros couldn't compete nowadays.
He is not particularly wrong. Consider that observer of that series is the one who is going to play Flash next week.
How is that relevant in any way? Does observing promatches somehow make him less qualified to play in them? Shine was a pro in that era too btw and he plays FAR better than he did back then.
I'm sure Jaedong was observing that match from home, does that make him less of a competitor?
Observing promatches for his daytime job is the simple statement of fact: present BW top tier does not even practice that much. They are sure as hell better strategists now (i mean come on, you did not see defensive matrix on shuttles that often in Kespa days), but mechanics wise it is a different story.
On May 28 2017 22:58 goody153 wrote: recommended games guys ?
Game 2 and game 3 imho (spoiler: game 2 is only worth it for facecam so if you find a gif, game 3 only). Maybe game 4 if seeing terran get btfod out of the game with 20 ultras is your thing.
in comparison to dropping that game on outsider with 5 operating bases, where the only thing soulkey needed to do was to stop the 1st wave of dropships and he failed amazingly, the mistakes game 1 and 5 on breaker were not even noticeable. However, nothing in this series could even remotely compare to bisu's C- performance yesterday. All of them make lousy mistakes, maybe flash doesnt but all others
On May 28 2017 22:58 goody153 wrote: recommended games guys ?
Game 2 and game 3 imho (spoiler: game 2 is only worth it for facecam so if you find a gif, game 3 only). Maybe game 4 if seeing terran get btfod out of the game with 20 ultras is your thing.
I guess we'll never know why SoulKey didn't morph the guardians in a safer place. It could've been a gamble to create chaos by inviting Flash to fight a close fight. But if that's not the reason then I'm convinced it was a mistake either due to neglect or pressure.
But I hope Flash can step up his game, like most of the old guard he has some atypically weak moments. That's to be expected of course, the pros can't prepare as meticulously for their matches as they used to.
I barely managed to make myself watch the series to the end. Soulkey was utterly helpless and clueless, so much for preparation talks. On the other hand, when you play against Flash anyone can break. Still, I was expecting much better performance from Soulkey. Gosh, why do you even consider going mutas when you can't do anything with them and your micro is not that great either. Muta must do damage or you're fucked especially when you play against someone like Flash. This is just relying on luck and chance not strategy or inventive thinking.
4-10 sunkens to delay mm army only to get the defilers and get irradiated to death. That's a strategy? We've already been through this when JD attempted something similar only he had a pretty nice plan and it almost worked while here it was more like a weaker player trying his best to stay alive.
Even the only game Soulkey won was a pain to watch with that science vessels control group floating around until the very end. Uninspiring micro and poor strategies, I will not recommend the games. This match was a walk in the park for Flash.
Funny to acknowledge that the only zerg who actually uses his brains is Shine these days. At least I hope he makes Flash sweat his pants a little.
On May 28 2017 20:56 sAw wrote: This is painful to watch
BW is reviving but the current top level would not even qualify for the starleagues of the peak period.
uwotm8 lmfao
This is almost as stupid as the people that say the 2009-2011 foreign pros couldn't compete nowadays.
He is not particularly wrong. Consider that observer of that series is the one who is going to play Flash next week.
How is that relevant in any way? Does observing promatches somehow make him less qualified to play in them? Shine was a pro in that era too btw and he plays FAR better than he did back then.
I'm sure Jaedong was observing that match from home, does that make him less of a competitor?
Observing promatches for his daytime job is the simple statement of fact: present BW top tier does not even practice that much. They are sure as hell better strategists now (i mean come on, you did not see defensive matrix on shuttles that often in Kespa days), but mechanics wise it is a different story.
His daytime job? You do realize how few matches he observes in a week right?
On May 29 2017 02:10 letian wrote: I barely managed to make myself watch the series to the end. Soulkey was utterly helpless and clueless, so much for preparation talks. On the other hand, when you play against Flash anyone can break. Still, I was expecting much better performance from Soulkey. Gosh, why do you even consider going mutas when you can't do anything with them and your micro is not that great either. Muta must do damage or you're fucked especially when you play against someone like Flash. This is just relying on luck and chance not strategy or inventive thinking.
4-10 sunkens to delay mm army only to get the defilers and get irradiated to death. That's a strategy? We've already been through this when JD attempted something similar only he had a pretty nice plan and it almost worked while here it was more like a weaker player trying his best to stay alive.
Even the only game Soulkey won was a pain to watch with that science vessels control group floating around until the very end. Uninspiring micro and poor strategies, I will not recommend the games. This match was a walk in the park for Flash.
Funny to acknowledge that the only zerg who actually uses his brains is Shine these days. At least I hope he makes Flash sweat his pants a little.
At least his plan with mutas was clear.
What the hell would he even do with lurker tech? Sit there and roll over?
On May 28 2017 20:56 sAw wrote: This is painful to watch
BW is reviving but the current top level would not even qualify for the starleagues of the peak period.
uwotm8 lmfao
This is almost as stupid as the people that say the 2009-2011 foreign pros couldn't compete nowadays.
He is not particularly wrong. Consider that observer of that series is the one who is going to play Flash next week.
How is that relevant in any way? Does observing promatches somehow make him less qualified to play in them? Shine was a pro in that era too btw and he plays FAR better than he did back then.
I'm sure Jaedong was observing that match from home, does that make him less of a competitor?
Observing promatches for his daytime job is the simple statement of fact: present BW top tier does not even practice that much. They are sure as hell better strategists now (i mean come on, you did not see defensive matrix on shuttles that often in Kespa days), but mechanics wise it is a different story.
His daytime job? You do realize how few matches he observes in a week right?
On May 28 2017 22:19 tanngard wrote: According to what Zero said, the players are less sharp because of less practice. On the other hand Hero has stated that he has gained a deeper and holistic understanding of the game.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me and seem to confirm my view.
On May 28 2017 22:20 Dante08 wrote: Strategically the players might be better now but mechanically they were way better during the Kespa era. Nowadays they practice according to their own free time compared to 8-10 hours a day when they were in pro-gaming houses. Even Flash said in an interview somewhere he is more developed strategically but mechanically he was no where near compared to his Kespa days.
And even the practice you do during your own time isn't the same as practicing specific things intensely against teammates with the oversight of a coach.
With different levels of mechanics it opens up completely different strategies.
I can't wait for Shine vs. Flash, is it gonna be on the same maps as the semis?
On May 29 2017 02:10 letian wrote: This match was a walk in the park for Flash.
uuuhhhh, it was a 3-2 victory with a couple of clutch moments where Flash could've lost.
Flash did feel more dominant but calling it a walk in the park is just ridiculous.
Lucky 4 pool and really weird game on Andromeda where Soulkey used islands to survive? If Flash went mech, it would be a completely different game. For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time. The map is huge and he simply could not do the same he did on Outsider without being continuously harassed given their initial positioning. And even in that game Soulkey did not micro scourge at all to keep science vessels count low. Go, rewatch Effort vs Flash, JD vs Flash games to understand how a zerg should play in order to win against him and make a ZvT series great not mediocre as it was today.
On May 28 2017 20:56 sAw wrote: This is painful to watch
BW is reviving but the current top level would not even qualify for the starleagues of the peak period.
I used to think this, but I'm no longer so sure. Just having gone back and watched old leagues I can't say there is a huge difference in play quality.
Equally important, amateur players still perform at the same level, as they didn't lose the advantage of being able to practice 14 hrs a day in dedicated team houses. Given that, if the level has regressed significantly we should see a slew of former "no names" mixing it up with the KeSPA guys. This hasn't happened though, and is a major indication that the skill level has been maintained.
On May 29 2017 02:40 letian wrote: Lucky 4 pool and really weird game on Andromeda where Soulkey used islands to survive? If Flash went mech, it would be a completely different game. For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time. The map is huge and he simply could not do the same he did on Outsider without being continuously harassed given their initial positioning. And even in that game Soulkey did not micro scourge at all to keep science vessels count low. Go, rewatch Effort vs Flash, JD vs Flash games to understand how a zerg should play in order to win against him and make a ZvT series great not mediocre as it was today.
Call it what you want, but it wasn't a walk in the park. Soulkey was close to winning a few times.
And yes, even though he made a lot of basic mistakes he still won the game.
I doubt that the scan in game 5 was something out of ordinary. What most likely happened is that Flash scanned main to see zerg's tech, saw greater spire already completed and since the mutas were like 20 sec ago at the upper left corner of the map he made a casual guess that they morph somewhere there and providing that terran's scan more or less reveals half of the map, it was not that hard to find the cocoons.
Honestly, the series was a roflstomp. Watch if you have time only.
Interesting. a 3-2 roflstomp where FlaSh was in series danger of losing the entire series in G5.
The scan on the guardians was a BIG deal, especially since he was able to kill several of the morphing guardians (and probably a devourer), eliminate the muta, and get out to Soulkey's third.
Without that scan Flash is in his nat dealing with a control group of muta, some scourge, 6 guardians, and lings...as opposed to 2 guardians, no scourge, and a couple lings. Even in the latter situation, there were some points where FlaSh had to be careful. I wouldn't go so far as to say SK would have won had FlaSh not scanned, but it would have required some excellent defending by Flash to hang on, and SK would have had three gas to work with.
In that series Soulkey completely outplayed Flash in 2 games, Flash completely outplayed Soulkey in 2 games, and the last game SK made a good showing of himself, but the combination of the good scan by Flash and Soulkey's admittedly poor decision not to morph the guardians over the black space air region, resulted in a reasonably comfortable Flash victory in G5.
there should be new commandmentr made by god: thou shall not morph mutalisks in the same place where everybody does it and a timing that is so freakingly obvious
On May 29 2017 02:40 letian wrote: Lucky 4 pool and really weird game on Andromeda where Soulkey used islands to survive? If Flash went mech, it would be a completely different game. For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time. The map is huge and he simply could not do the same he did on Outsider without being continuously harassed given their initial positioning. And even in that game Soulkey did not micro scourge at all to keep science vessels count low. Go, rewatch Effort vs Flash, JD vs Flash games to understand how a zerg should play in order to win against him and make a ZvT series great not mediocre as it was today.
Call it what you want, but it wasn't a walk in the park. Soulkey was close to winning a few times.
And yes, even though he made a lot of basic mistakes he still won the game.
No, judging the games quality only by the score is obviously wrong and this is what you trying to imply. If you liked the games, I can only think that you either didn't watch enough truly good ZvT or new to BW in general. You need to watch better ZvT games which are plenty around. Soulkey can play much better against Flash himself and we've already seen it. Unfortunately, he could not pull anything interesting in terms or strategy and execution today.
On May 29 2017 01:15 Headshot wrote: That scan in game 5. What the hell? :O
The commentators missed it, but I heard a scan and I am 90% positive that first scan scouted the greater spire. Then he scanned the area where the guardians were and saw them.
Very good series, I enjoyed it a lot. Game 5 was intense all throughout and I was surprised Soulkey stayed alive as lon gas he did. He played very well on Andromeda, the 4 pool was hilariously awesome and in general a good series I would say.
I think Flash wins this tournament now though, I want Shine to win so badly but I don't think he can do it.
On May 29 2017 03:29 letian wrote: No, judging the games quality only by the score is obviously wrong and this is what you trying to imply. If you liked the games, I can only think that you either didn't watch enough truly good ZvT or new to BW in general. You need to watch better ZvT games which are plenty around. Soulkey can play much better against Flash himself and we've already seen it. Unfortunately, he could not pull anything interesting in terms or strategy and execution today.
I didn't say a word about if I liked the games or not or about the quality of the games.
All I said was that it wasn't a walk in the park for Flash, Soulkey was close to winning.
On May 29 2017 01:15 Headshot wrote: That scan in game 5. What the hell? :O
I think it was pretty obvious for Flash with the state of the game and that base's cliff was the obvious position to morph the guardians. Soulkey just made the error and didn't morph them on the cliff...... To be honest, considering he lost like 4 guardians there, SK could have actually won the game if he didn't lose those. That's actually quite surprising, considering how far behind he was economy-wise.
On May 29 2017 02:10 letian wrote: I barely managed to make myself watch the series to the end. Soulkey was utterly helpless and clueless, so much for preparation talks. On the other hand, when you play against Flash anyone can break. Still, I was expecting much better performance from Soulkey. Gosh, why do you even consider going mutas when you can't do anything with them and your micro is not that great either. Muta must do damage or you're fucked especially when you play against someone like Flash. This is just relying on luck and chance not strategy or inventive thinking.
4-10 sunkens to delay mm army only to get the defilers and get irradiated to death. That's a strategy? We've already been through this when JD attempted something similar only he had a pretty nice plan and it almost worked while here it was more like a weaker player trying his best to stay alive.
Even the only game Soulkey won was a pain to watch with that science vessels control group floating around until the very end. Uninspiring micro and poor strategies, I will not recommend the games. This match was a walk in the park for Flash.
Funny to acknowledge that the only zerg who actually uses his brains is Shine these days. At least I hope he makes Flash sweat his pants a little.
I honestly doubt it. Shine may play smarter (a lot smarter, surprisingly enough) but his mechanics are a lot worse so he won't stand a chance against Flash. Soulkey on the otherside had an actual chance imho but, as you said, his strategies were absolute garbage, except for the one on Andromeda. That game he played well and Flash didn't go for dropships fast enough, so Soulkey could run away with his eco. Game 3 hurt me so much. That was so frustrating to watch, especially as a zerg player. Soulkey almost had that game in the bag. He was on 4 gas pretty much uncontested and what does he do? Skip lurkers. On Outsider. For real? All he had to do was defend the drops with lurkers and swarm and then start swarming Flash with ultra, ling, defiler, like in game 4. But no, he had to rush to ultras. You can do that if you are very far ahead and are sure the terran doesn't go for mass drops. If you aren't sure, don't do it. The reason the game actually looked so lop-sided in the end was because the ultras were on the way. Prolly around 12 or so. Flash hit the timing before they popped when Soulkey had nothing but a bunch of lings and defilers.
omg that was D- scourge micro in game 3,when you bassically have free dropships. Soulkey was in such a great position in that game. The first moment where scourges was going towards the non dmatrixed dropship, Soulkey did the anti micro, by pulling back his scourges wtf? after that he just did more of the same...
Imo game 5 was super anticlimactic when SK went for greater spire. It was a pretty easy read for Flash who knew after seeing no third that it was hive tech and he better scan to see if it's offensive guardians or defensive dark swarm. I think dark swarm into a close third would have been best. Similar to how Zero plays it out on FS in 2014.
On May 28 2017 22:58 goody153 wrote: recommended games guys ?
Game 2 and game 3 imho (spoiler: game 2 is only worth it for facecam so if you find a gif, game 3 only). Maybe game 4 if seeing terran get btfod out of the game with 20 ultras is your thing.
I don't know why people are complaining so much about the series. It was pretty good.
And mistakes are an integral part of broodwar. It was always like that. You can't do everything right and progamers always make choices what to focus on. That is also what differentiated players. Some put more focus on micro, some more on macro, some on multi-tasking etc. If you watch old series from starleagues you will also see players making tons of mistakes. While mechanically players do seem a bit worse than during KeSPA times Soulkey and Flash did not play bad in this series.
Holy fuck that was a great series. I haven't read everyone else's reactions but it seems that people are down on the games. I have no idea why. A lot of people seem to dislike any games that feature mistakes. Especially that last game, it was on a fucking knife's edge for the entire game, it was incredible to watch. Man. So suspenseful. Heart rate through the roof.
The only game that was sort of disappointing was game 2 with the 4 pool, but even that, I was super happy to see a Zerg using that in a Bo5.
On May 29 2017 04:56 Lebesgue wrote: I don't know why people are complaining so much about the series. It was pretty good.
And mistakes are an integral part of broodwar. It was always like that. You can't do everything right and progamers always make choices what to focus on. That is also what differentiated players. Some put more focus on micro, some more on macro, some on multi-tasking etc. If you watch old series from starleagues you will also see players making tons of mistakes. While mechanically players do seem a bit worse than during KeSPA times Soulkey and Flash did not play bad in this series.
400 apm = 6.5 actions PER SECOND. that is insane to keep up with
yeah but no, alot of THOSE APM IS MINDLESS CLICKING, i expected you to atleast LOOK AT EAPM IN THIS MATTER
professional's don't mindlessly click except in the earlier stages of the game to keep their fingers warmed up. If you spam click to move units it actually improves the pathing ai, its on purpose.
On May 29 2017 04:56 Lebesgue wrote: I don't know why people are complaining so much about the series. It was pretty good.
And mistakes are an integral part of broodwar. It was always like that. You can't do everything right and progamers always make choices what to focus on. That is also what differentiated players. Some put more focus on micro, some more on macro, some on multi-tasking etc. If you watch old series from starleagues you will also see players making tons of mistakes. While mechanically players do seem a bit worse than during KeSPA times Soulkey and Flash did not play bad in this series.
Seriously, this series went down to the wire. Incredible. I think people are just salty that Soulkey could've beaten Flash, but lost because of a simple error.
On May 29 2017 04:56 Lebesgue wrote: I don't know why people are complaining so much about the series. It was pretty good.
And mistakes are an integral part of broodwar. It was always like that. You can't do everything right and progamers always make choices what to focus on. That is also what differentiated players. Some put more focus on micro, some more on macro, some on multi-tasking etc. If you watch old series from starleagues you will also see players making tons of mistakes. While mechanically players do seem a bit worse than during KeSPA times Soulkey and Flash did not play bad in this series.
Seriously, this series went down to the wire. Incredible. I think people are just salty that Soulkey could've beaten Flash, but lost because of a simple error.
Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it. Although the series as a whole wasn't really that good in terms of quality. Game 1 was a walkover. Game 2 BO win. Game 3 was just frustrating to watch. Game 4 was kind of good. Game 5 was kind of frustrating to watch as well.
In terms of pure mechanical skill, Soulkey came closer to beat Flash than JD last season imho.
I dunno it seems like every time I look at the comments after one of these series people are complaining about the game quality. Brood War is hard! I thought this was an awesome series. It went down to the wire and game 5 was a real nail biter. Flash's micro with the drop ships was excellent in the Outsider game. One of the things that makes Flash so good is how often he prioritizes using his APM on the most important parts of the battlefield.
On May 29 2017 02:40 letian wrote: Lucky 4 pool and really weird game on Andromeda where Soulkey used islands to survive? If Flash went mech, it would be a completely different game. For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time. The map is huge and he simply could not do the same he did on Outsider without being continuously harassed given their initial positioning. And even in that game Soulkey did not micro scourge at all to keep science vessels count low. Go, rewatch Effort vs Flash, JD vs Flash games to understand how a zerg should play in order to win against him and make a ZvT series great not mediocre as it was today.
Call it what you want, but it wasn't a walk in the park. Soulkey was close to winning a few times.
And yes, even though he made a lot of basic mistakes he still won the game.
No, judging the games quality only by the score is obviously wrong and this is what you trying to imply. If you liked the games, I can only think that you either didn't watch enough truly good ZvT or new to BW in general. You need to watch better ZvT games which are plenty around. Soulkey can play much better against Flash himself and we've already seen it. Unfortunately, he could not pull anything interesting in terms or strategy and execution today.
Yet you completely ignore the part where soulkey denied flash 4th base in game 4. This is a massively big thing if you go bio all game. You should know this yet you seem to not?
On May 29 2017 01:15 Headshot wrote: That scan in game 5. What the hell? :O
The commentators missed it, but I heard a scan and I am 90% positive that first scan scouted the greater spire. Then he scanned the area where the guardians were and saw them.
Very good series, I enjoyed it a lot. Game 5 was intense all throughout and I was surprised Soulkey stayed alive as lon gas he did. He played very well on Andromeda, the 4 pool was hilariously awesome and in general a good series I would say.
I think Flash wins this tournament now though, I want Shine to win so badly but I don't think he can do it.
Yes, he scanned the creep with the greater spire morphing, and with that information the guardians later.
On May 29 2017 02:10 letian wrote: This match was a walk in the park for Flash.
uuuhhhh, it was a 3-2 victory with a couple of clutch moments where Flash could've lost.
Flash did feel more dominant but calling it a walk in the park is just ridiculous.
Lucky 4 pool and really weird game on Andromeda where Soulkey used islands to survive? If Flash went mech, it would be a completely different game. For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time. The map is huge and he simply could not do the same he did on Outsider without being continuously harassed given their initial positioning. And even in that game Soulkey did not micro scourge at all to keep science vessels count low. Go, rewatch Effort vs Flash, JD vs Flash games to understand how a zerg should play in order to win against him and make a ZvT series great not mediocre as it was today.
you have to admit that soulkey had a well prepared build for the Andromeda map, getting the island expansion running early enough such that flash would have a hard time moving shuttles to that area, unlike in Outsider.
I don't think flash mech transitioned due to not having two more gases after the first MnM push. He probably overestimated his "lead" after denying the soulkey's other main expansion not knowing the Soulkey's third was on the island and taken before his initial muta. With the initial low muta count flash shouldve known something was off, but I guess he thought it was going to be aggression considering how laid back he was playing then. For instance, a mass drop and forcing flash to divide his army or keep him in base, hence being unable to break soulkey's sunkenD. It also happens to be the few ways for zerg to deal with 5rax effectively under three hatch muta tactics wise.
At the very least, soulkey tried to do something differently to compensate for his weakness in g1. It seemed clear that soulkey couldn't best flash in a standard game. Hence the straight to ultras games. Also flash has been practicing a lot of SKTerran style on stream, so it seems to be soulkey's best chance.
On May 29 2017 05:02 neobowman wrote: Holy fuck that was a great series. I haven't read everyone else's reactions but it seems that people are down on the games. I have no idea why. A lot of people seem to dislike any games that feature mistakes. Especially that last game, it was on a fucking knife's edge for the entire game, it was incredible to watch. Man. So suspenseful. Heart rate through the roof.
The only game that was sort of disappointing was game 2 with the 4 pool, but even that, I was super happy to see a Zerg using that in a Bo5.
Calling this series great is what I call being over-sentimental Flash was never in danger. You guys overestimate Soulkey. Last JD vs Flash series this is what I call on edge and Flash was in danger and actually had to work hard to make through. The games against Soulkey were pure mm drilling hitting the right timings because Soulkey could not do a thing against terran in early game and against Flash this is like asking to be rolled over. Zerg has to get advantage. Go watch old PL ZvT matches and see how many of them zerg won doing nothing in early game.
On May 29 2017 05:02 neobowman wrote: Holy fuck that was a great series. I haven't read everyone else's reactions but it seems that people are down on the games. I have no idea why. A lot of people seem to dislike any games that feature mistakes. Especially that last game, it was on a fucking knife's edge for the entire game, it was incredible to watch. Man. So suspenseful. Heart rate through the roof.
The only game that was sort of disappointing was game 2 with the 4 pool, but even that, I was super happy to see a Zerg using that in a Bo5.
Calling this series great is what I call being over-sentimental Flash was never in danger. You guys overestimate Soulkey. Last JD vs Flash series this is what I call on edge and Flash was in danger and actually had to work hard to make through. The games against Soulkey were pure mm drilling hitting the right timings because Soulkey could not do a thing against terran in early game and against Flash this is like asking to be rolled over. Zerg has to get advantage. Go watch old PL ZvT matches and see how many of them zerg won doing nothing in early game.
Did you unsee the huge advantage in G3 on outsider that Soulkey was having, he was bassically far ahead with dobule gas 2 evo, 2 defiler mounds, while flash was only medic marine, until the moment flash attacked nat with vessels he was totally outplayed. Flash won that game, because Soulkey choked hard and microed defilers and scourges like a D- iccup noob. These dropships was super easy to snipe actually, but he couldnt click on them/ or pull scourges back from them to not hit, like he want to lose on purpose.
On May 29 2017 06:08 Miragee wrote: In terms of pure mechanical skill, Soulkey came closer to beat Flash than JD last season imho.
I would argue with that. JD came up with some clever builds which actually won him games last season and mechanically performed way better than Soulkey who could not even scourge control properly and relied on sunkens and muta tech in all his games. This is not how you win against Flash. Seriously guys, what happened to you critical thinking?
On May 29 2017 02:40 letian wrote: For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time.
I guess you missed the teamleague game where SoulKey demolished Flash's mech practically with ease. I feel like most your statements are baseless. Like, walk in the park series for Flash - what series did you watch?
On May 29 2017 05:02 neobowman wrote: Holy fuck that was a great series. I haven't read everyone else's reactions but it seems that people are down on the games. I have no idea why. A lot of people seem to dislike any games that feature mistakes. Especially that last game, it was on a fucking knife's edge for the entire game, it was incredible to watch. Man. So suspenseful. Heart rate through the roof.
The only game that was sort of disappointing was game 2 with the 4 pool, but even that, I was super happy to see a Zerg using that in a Bo5.
Calling this series great is what I call being over-sentimental Flash was never in danger. You guys overestimate Soulkey. Last JD vs Flash series this is what I call on edge and Flash was in danger and actually had to work hard to make through. The games against Soulkey were pure mm drilling hitting the right timings because Soulkey could not do a thing against terran in early game and against Flash this is like asking to be rolled over. Zerg has to get advantage. Go watch old PL ZvT matches and see how many of them zerg won doing nothing in early game.
Did you unsee the huge advantage in G3 on outsider that Soulkey was having, he was bassically far ahead with dobule gas 2 evo, 2 defiler mounds, while flash was only medic marine, until the moment flash attacked nat with vessels he was totally outplayed. Flash won that game, because Soulkey choked hard and microed defilers and scourges like a D- iccup noob. These dropships was super easy to snipe actually, but he couldnt click on them/ or pull scourges back from them to not hit, like he want to lose on purpose.
Flash sent a single marine to harass 3h and Soulkey was forced to send 2 zerlings to kill it splitting his initial zerling group. So when Flash came knocking on the door with 7 marines Soulkey had -2 zerlings because the second one was still running back to defend top expand. All this accumulated into -6 drones, +2 early sunkens and +6 more zerlings. How much minerals is that. For terran losing 8 marines and two firebats (500, 50 gas) when Soulkey lost 300 + 175 + 175 + 150 = 800 minerals, most importantly mining time and workers. Flash lost only offensive units. What Soulkey should have done after that is equalize the damage with muta which never happened because Soulkey muta sucked and was useless. This set him back even further. Outsider was a downhill road from the moment Soulkey lost his drones.
What advantage? Advantage having two gases does not have an immediate impact, it accumulates, grows. Flash didn't let this happen by shutting down 3h with his dropship play and Soulkey could not prevent this since he was already handicapped by his "strategic" sunkenD, Flash early push and his own poor micro.
On May 29 2017 02:40 letian wrote: For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time.
I guess you missed the teamleague game where SoulKey demolished Flash's mech practically with ease. I feel like most your statements are baseless. Like, walk in the park series for Flash - what series did you watch?
Don't nitpick my text. That was more an emotional evaluation. Soulkey crumbled under pressure and played worse that he usually does, didn't have any clever builds and on top poor execution of the "prepared" ones. So, if you like this kind of play you either a Flash fan and attempt to give him some credit or have a strange taste in ZvT games.
On May 29 2017 15:01 juvenal wrote: letian is wrong, everybody else is right.
On May 29 2017 02:40 letian wrote: For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time.
I guess you missed the teamleague game where SoulKey demolished Flash's mech practically with ease. I feel like most your statements are baseless. Like, walk in the park series for Flash - what series did you watch?
Don't nitpick my text. That was more an emotional evaluation. Soulkey crumbled under pressure and played worse that he usually does, didn't have any clever builds and on top poor execution of the "prepared" ones. So, if you like this kind of play you either a Flash fan and attempt to give him some credit or have a strange taste in ZvT games.
mate most of the people enjoyed the series and deem it worthy of its hype. So it's either all of us have strange taste in ZvT or you do, what do you reckon is more plausible.
On May 29 2017 02:40 letian wrote: Lucky 4 pool and really weird game on Andromeda where Soulkey used islands to survive? If Flash went mech, it would be a completely different game. For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time. The map is huge and he simply could not do the same he did on Outsider without being continuously harassed given their initial positioning. And even in that game Soulkey did not micro scourge at all to keep science vessels count low. Go, rewatch Effort vs Flash, JD vs Flash games to understand how a zerg should play in order to win against him and make a ZvT series great not mediocre as it was today.
Call it what you want, but it wasn't a walk in the park. Soulkey was close to winning a few times.
And yes, even though he made a lot of basic mistakes he still won the game.
No, judging the games quality only by the score is obviously wrong and this is what you trying to imply. If you liked the games, I can only think that you either didn't watch enough truly good ZvT or new to BW in general. You need to watch better ZvT games which are plenty around. Soulkey can play much better against Flash himself and we've already seen it. Unfortunately, he could not pull anything interesting in terms or strategy and execution today.
Yet you completely ignore the part where soulkey denied flash 4th base in game 4. This is a massively big thing if you go bio all game. You should know this yet you seem to not?
Denying 4th and making it sound like an achievement. How bad were these ZvT semifinals?
On May 29 2017 15:01 juvenal wrote: letian is wrong, everybody else is right.
On May 29 2017 02:40 letian wrote: For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time.
I guess you missed the teamleague game where SoulKey demolished Flash's mech practically with ease. I feel like most your statements are baseless. Like, walk in the park series for Flash - what series did you watch?
Don't nitpick my text. That was more an emotional evaluation. Soulkey crumbled under pressure and played worse that he usually does, didn't have any clever builds and on top poor execution of the "prepared" ones. So, if you like this kind of play you either a Flash fan and attempt to give him some credit or have a strange taste in ZvT games.
mate most of the people enjoyed the series and deem it worthy of its hype. So it's either all of us have strange taste in ZvT or you do, what do you reckon is more plausible.
"The majority is right". Good for me I guess. I prefer good mechanics and interesting builds in ZvT, none of those were demonstrated (except when Soulkey defended push on Outsider and then still lost drones). Flash played on point on the other hand, that's the only thing I enjoyed I think.
On May 29 2017 02:40 letian wrote: Lucky 4 pool and really weird game on Andromeda where Soulkey used islands to survive? If Flash went mech, it would be a completely different game. For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time. The map is huge and he simply could not do the same he did on Outsider without being continuously harassed given their initial positioning. And even in that game Soulkey did not micro scourge at all to keep science vessels count low. Go, rewatch Effort vs Flash, JD vs Flash games to understand how a zerg should play in order to win against him and make a ZvT series great not mediocre as it was today.
Call it what you want, but it wasn't a walk in the park. Soulkey was close to winning a few times.
And yes, even though he made a lot of basic mistakes he still won the game.
No, judging the games quality only by the score is obviously wrong and this is what you trying to imply. If you liked the games, I can only think that you either didn't watch enough truly good ZvT or new to BW in general. You need to watch better ZvT games which are plenty around. Soulkey can play much better against Flash himself and we've already seen it. Unfortunately, he could not pull anything interesting in terms or strategy and execution today.
Yet you completely ignore the part where soulkey denied flash 4th base in game 4. This is a massively big thing if you go bio all game. You should know this yet you seem to not?
Denying 4th and making it sound like an achievement. How bad were these ZvT semifinals?
Haha :D The series went 3-2, but it really felt more like 3-0 or 3-1. Soulkey just did not seem strong at all, but rather getting lucky with that 4pool and on Andromeda the map winning the game for him. I hope Shine has some builds left in his bag to give Flash better competition. God damn it Bisu..
I think it's a skewed to say Andromeda won Soulkey the game. Kespa Flash has an excellent record on it. As for post Kespa, the map stats for Andromeda seem T>Z favored (it's not up-to-date atm).
Fantastic series, loved it. Game 1 was typical Flash, nothing too exciting. Loved the 4 pool in game 2, caught Flash offguard and won him the game. Nice to see it have some relevance at the pro level even if the chance of success is really low. Flash losing to a 4 pool made it even funnier!
Game 3 was an interesting one. I love seeing the sunken bust, but Soulkey just held on and got that fourth gas. I think the scourge micro was intentional. That dance was great lol. I think it's easy to point and say, noob, micro better. In truth, if you don't control your scourge, they'll pause as they change directions so I think Soulkey was trying to prevent that from happening. Just so happened that Flash's micro was on point to dodge them and Soulkey might also mismicroed at times there. Also, though I get his strategy, I'm inclined to agree with those posters demanding lurkers in the game. Given, doubt it would've happened.
Game 4 was Soulkey just getting a good standard game going and overwhelming Flash with a better eco. Good deny on the fourth. Mong, take note of how Flash killed the psi disruptors XD
Game 5 was so hype. I think Soulkey morphed the mutalisks at the 9 due to timing. I think he realized that he's gradually losing the timing he wanted and was probably also feeling pressured so he went for it. I'm not sure if he would've won the game had he morphed them in space tbh. Flash had two starports and he even took a third so he could've moved his works, made several wraiths and with marine support, took them out. So imo, it was a calculated risk by Soulkey and not a mistake like some implied. Even with Soulkey having a worse eco, it looked like he might actually take the game. That is, until Flash managed to get the scan, move out to try and deny the third etc... Regardless, good damn game and fantastic watch.
My only complaint in the whole series is that Soulkey's mutalisk micro is frankly terrible. Only decent time was game 5 when he was going in to snipe turrets, lone marines etc... In all the other games, his mutalisks just danced around the mnm while Flash would just keep moving around, make a quick dash back then continue. Yes, he wants to slow them down but let's face it, rushing the third is a good move in itself. You force the zerg to engage you and if you're someone like Flash who controls well, it's to your advantage too.
On May 29 2017 16:33 Broodwar4lyf wrote: didn't jds or effort use 4pool vs God back before bw shut down its big tourneys? yeah i think bo7 jds 4pooled twice and lost one lol
He did in the finals of Korean Air OSL Season 2, in Bo5. He used it in game 2 (which he won) and in game 3 (which he lost).
On May 29 2017 06:08 Miragee wrote: In terms of pure mechanical skill, Soulkey came closer to beat Flash than JD last season imho.
I would argue with that. JD came up with some clever builds which actually won him games last season and mechanically performed way better than Soulkey who could not even scourge control properly and relied on sunkens and muta tech in all his games. This is not how you win against Flash. Seriously guys, what happened to you critical thinking?
Jeadong came up with gimmick builds and was lucky to win two games with them. In the three games that he played straight and went for mutas, he got rolled over. There was no suspense there.
Soulkey actually won a straight standard game 4. His play was nowhere as bad as you suggest. And definitely not worse than Jaedong's in ASL2.
On May 29 2017 06:08 Miragee wrote: In terms of pure mechanical skill, Soulkey came closer to beat Flash than JD last season imho.
I would argue with that. JD came up with some clever builds which actually won him games last season and mechanically performed way better than Soulkey who could not even scourge control properly and relied on sunkens and muta tech in all his games. This is not how you win against Flash. Seriously guys, what happened to you critical thinking?
Jeadong came up with gimmick builds and was lucky to win two games with them. In the three games that he played straight and went for mutas, he got rolled over. There was no suspense there.
Soulkey actually won a straight standard game 4. His play was nowhere as bad as you suggest. And definitely not worse than Jaedong's in ASL2.
pretty much. Jaedong's hydra bust game 4 was fantastic but its no different than SK's 4 pool from game 2. If scouted, it can be defended against. Soulkey's game 4 on Andromeda was as interesting if not more than Jaedong's game 1 win and the game 5 of each series was as good imo. Heck, it was a lot closer here than with the way things went down last ASL with Flash.
My only complaint in the whole series is that Soulkey's mutalisk micro is frankly terrible. Only decent time was game 5 when he was going in to snipe turrets
This took me by surprise in game 5. All of a sudden his muta control is good.. if just for a moment. Thought it was according to his plan, changing up his tempo. Then i got dissapointed when i saw guardians.. since it kinda slows the tempo down, still an enjoyable game 5 and the strategy with guardians+mass lings seemed to have potential actually. Him losing quite a few drones to some vultures at his third hit him quite big i believe.
My only complaint in the whole series is that Soulkey's mutalisk micro is frankly terrible. Only decent time was game 5 when he was going in to snipe turrets
This took me by surprise in game 5. All of a sudden his muta control is good.. if just for a moment. Thought it was according to his plan, changing up his tempo. Then i got dissapointed when i saw guardians.. since it kinda slows the tempo down, still an enjoyable game 5 and the strategy with guardians+mass lings seemed to have potential actually. Him losing quite a few drones to some vultures at his third hit him quite big i believe.
yep, if you watched his micro throughout the series, it varies so so much. Game 1, he caught 5 marines with 6 zerglings with an amazing surround and he had great surrounds in game 4, same with the small bits in game 2 then you see his mutalisk micro in all his other games - game 5 and you wonder why he doesn't bother to micro them. If you are going mutas, you have to force the terran to keep relocating, moving around etc... It kinda makes me mad lol because you know that his macro is solid and his micro can be too but I have no clue why he neglected his mutas throughout most of the series. Even on Outsider, aside from a small dip into Flash's exp, his mutalisks were just flying around the base. Sure, maybe he meant to intercept drops but this was before Flash had dropships out then he lost them all to the mnm when Flash went for the bust.
This series was incredible. Successful 4pool. Soulkey with a great build on Andromeda. The outsider game where flash barely scraped by. All culminating in in a very tense game 5. As soulkey gg'd, we let out a huge sigh of relief and so did flash. Flash's control and decision making seemed worse than it usually is and so he only managed to win by the smallest of razor thin margins.
I may be miss-remembering, but isn't Andromeda the biggest map in the professional scene since 2008? Is Circuit Breaker bigger? I could've sworn Andromeda was the biggest.
On May 29 2017 19:37 Qikz wrote: I may be miss-remembering, but isn't Andromeda the biggest map in the professional scene since 2008? Is Circuit Breaker bigger? I could've sworn Andromeda was the biggest.
Andromeda is bigger I think but it has the in base mineral only which sure makes it feel bigger and play bigger even if it isn't.
On May 29 2017 16:29 BigFan wrote: I think the scourge micro was intentional. That dance was great lol. I think it's easy to point and say, noob, micro better. In truth, if you don't control your scourge, they'll pause as they change directions so I think Soulkey was trying to prevent that from happening. Just so happened that Flash's micro was on point to dodge them and Soulkey might also mismicroed at times there.
He did anti micro, he pulled back the sourges from flying towards the dropship, then he passed a STOPPED dropship intentionally... Its scourge vs dropship, there is no excuse for failing that hard.
On May 29 2017 06:08 Miragee wrote: In terms of pure mechanical skill, Soulkey came closer to beat Flash than JD last season imho.
I would argue with that. JD came up with some clever builds which actually won him games last season and mechanically performed way better than Soulkey who could not even scourge control properly and relied on sunkens and muta tech in all his games. This is not how you win against Flash. Seriously guys, what happened to you critical thinking?
As much as I love JD, but in his games vs Flash he severely lacked mechanical skill. He could edge out wins with strategies but not with his enormous macro and multi-tasking he used to have back in the day. Soulkey indeed had some terrible scourge control but his macro was far stronger than JD's.
And again, G3 Soulkey was ahead quite a bit. Then he threw the game when Flash hit the only timing he had. 2 minutes longer and that game would have looked the same as game 4.
On May 29 2017 06:08 Miragee wrote: In terms of pure mechanical skill, Soulkey came closer to beat Flash than JD last season imho.
I would argue with that. JD came up with some clever builds which actually won him games last season and mechanically performed way better than Soulkey who could not even scourge control properly and relied on sunkens and muta tech in all his games. This is not how you win against Flash. Seriously guys, what happened to you critical thinking?
2 minutes longer and that game would have looked the same as game 4.
That can be said almost about every Flash game against any top zerg
On May 29 2017 19:37 Qikz wrote: I may be miss-remembering, but isn't Andromeda the biggest map in the professional scene since 2008? Is Circuit Breaker bigger? I could've sworn Andromeda was the biggest.
Basically all 4 player maps are 128x128. Andromeda looks sorta big because you have a 3 base economy basically with just your main and nat which makes rush distances bigger. Soulkey also went for the island expo which meant he didn't have to extend his ground defense at all for the third gas.
if i would have gotten 1 cent from every person who said "map X is bigger than map Y", even though they have the same size, i would be a millionaire. some things just stay the same even after all those years.....
On May 30 2017 00:05 Bakuryu wrote: if i would have gotten 1 cent from every person who said "map X is bigger than map Y", even though they have the same size, i would be a millionaire. some things just stay the same even after all those years.....
hmm, usually when I say map size I mean distance between bases.
First off, I'm pretty new to BW and I have absolutely NO player experience, I just watch and read a lot recently.
That being said, the most heated discussion is about the following:
No lurkers on Outsider Bad scourge micro on Outsider Morphing guardians relatively unprotected on CB game 2 Overall SK performance
So, please, correct me everywhere I'm wrong.
G3 on Outsider was a pretty obvious (to the observer) mad dash for mass hive tech - i.e. fully upgraded defilers, ultras, cracklings. After Flash had a solid early game advantage, slowing down SK's economy a lot, how the game turned out was not wholly unexpected. SK eventually got the double gas base, so he needed mostly time for that economy to really kick in. I don't really think lurker tech would've bought him more time than the (failed) muta harass in midgame; lurkers are static, he would've got like 6 of them, and Flash was already on 2 ports, having the opportunity to switch between dropships and science vessels. Defending SK's main, double gas and natural all at the same time with 6 lurkers does not seem plausible. He didn't need many vessels, because there were no lurkers; not vice versa. Early game terran pressure - sick firebat play! - was the main factor in that game, I think. Because of it SK was later forced to lose drones, i.e. larva and economy, for static D for ONE of his bases against an opponent that went two port. Muta harass arguably is a better time-waster and can earn better map control from what I've seen in the games I've watched, it just didn't this time.
The scourge micro issue I cannot address properly, since I haven't had to micro neither dropships nor scourge. Even so, I think it was mostly a product of great dropship micro AND wrong anticipation on SK's part, SK assuming chinese triangle or whatever from Flash and trying to anticipate his moves, move-commanding the scourge instead of attacking the dropship directly and falling victim to AI glitches. Apropos, I suppose that kind of micro can - and has been, heavily - be practiced on both sides. Doesn't seem like an improvised solution.
The guardians were morphed in a hurry, possibly part mistake and part timing, because they were ultima ratio. Flash defended the 9pool speed with inhumane ease and had the upper hand for most of the game, losing some ground when SK killed a bunch of MnM on the ramp above the bridges to the natural. SK most likely knew his build was scouted, he can hear scans after all. Time was working against him.
Overall, I don't consider the series to be horrible. SK fared quite well on Andromeda, denying the 4th and forcing Flash on SK Terran. Had a pretty solid plan on Outsider, I think, but subpar muta micro and great early pressure from Flash failed him, and had a nice cheesy (really an allin) build on CB for game 5. And I personally wonder if he chose to 4pool on Camelot not only because of the short rush distance, but because he was wary of some sort of cheese from Flash - which Flash actually did. Incorporating such stuff in your plan for a bo5 is not a sign of helplessness in my eyes. Besides, no zerg has had better results against Flash in offline matches recently. And I caught several games between them on stream, with SoulKey beating him a good percentage of the time. Comparing old-time pros and matches to the present has mostly sentimental value anyway. We should enjoy what we can. Sorry for the long post.
On May 30 2017 00:05 Bakuryu wrote: if i would have gotten 1 cent from every person who said "map X is bigger than map Y", even though they have the same size, i would be a millionaire. some things just stay the same even after all those years.....
When people say "bigger" they are usually not just talking about the actual size of the map, but rush distances, number of bases etc all factors into what makes a map "bigger" or "smaller" even though the actual physical size of the square is the same.
On May 29 2017 15:01 juvenal wrote: letian is wrong, everybody else is right.
On May 29 2017 02:40 letian wrote: For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time.
I guess you missed the teamleague game where SoulKey demolished Flash's mech practically with ease. I feel like most your statements are baseless. Like, walk in the park series for Flash - what series did you watch?
Don't nitpick my text. That was more an emotional evaluation. Soulkey crumbled under pressure and played worse that he usually does, didn't have any clever builds and on top poor execution of the "prepared" ones. So, if you like this kind of play you either a Flash fan and attempt to give him some credit or have a strange taste in ZvT games.
mate most of the people enjoyed the series and deem it worthy of its hype. So it's either all of us have strange taste in ZvT or you do, what do you reckon is more plausible.
"The majority is right". Good for me I guess. I prefer good mechanics and interesting builds in ZvT, none of those were demonstrated (except when Soulkey defended push on Outsider and then still lost drones). Flash played on point on the other hand, that's the only thing I enjoyed I think.
When it comes to the definition of strange, the majority really is write. If the majority of people like these types of ZvT's you can't really say their taste is strange can you? After all the definition is unusual/rarely seen.
What I can't figure out from your posts is that you have basically said FlaSh played quality starcraft, and constantly stated how pitiful Soulkey's showing was. This contrasts to the results of the games, where FlaSh handily beat SK in two, SK handily beat Flash in two, and the deciding game was an exceedingly close nailbiter that could have just as easily gone in SK's favor with a marginally later scan, better morphing spot, etc.
It just doesn't really jive that the greatest BW player of all time, playing a matchup known to be challenging for zerg, could play very solid starcraft, and come perilously close to losing against a zerg playing terribly.
On May 30 2017 02:13 TaardadAiel wrote: First off, I'm pretty new to BW and I have absolutely NO player experience, I just watch and read a lot recently.
On a side note, I'm just wondering, do you do BW commentary? Because you're certainly qualified if you wish to pursue it.
On May 29 2017 15:01 juvenal wrote: letian is wrong, everybody else is right.
On May 29 2017 02:40 letian wrote: For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time.
I guess you missed the teamleague game where SoulKey demolished Flash's mech practically with ease. I feel like most your statements are baseless. Like, walk in the park series for Flash - what series did you watch?
Don't nitpick my text. That was more an emotional evaluation. Soulkey crumbled under pressure and played worse that he usually does, didn't have any clever builds and on top poor execution of the "prepared" ones. So, if you like this kind of play you either a Flash fan and attempt to give him some credit or have a strange taste in ZvT games.
mate most of the people enjoyed the series and deem it worthy of its hype. So it's either all of us have strange taste in ZvT or you do, what do you reckon is more plausible.
"The majority is right". Good for me I guess. I prefer good mechanics and interesting builds in ZvT, none of those were demonstrated (except when Soulkey defended push on Outsider and then still lost drones). Flash played on point on the other hand, that's the only thing I enjoyed I think.
When it comes to the definition of strange, the majority really is write. If the majority of people like these types of ZvT's you can't really say their taste is strange can you? After all the definition is unusual/rarely seen.
What I can't figure out from your posts is that you have basically said FlaSh played quality starcraft, and constantly stated how pitiful Soulkey's showing was. This contrasts to the results of the games, where FlaSh handily beat SK in two, SK handily beat Flash in two, and the deciding game was an exceedingly close nailbiter that could have just as easily gone in SK's favor with a marginally later scan, better morphing spot, etc.
It just doesn't really jive that the greatest BW player of all time, playing a matchup known to be challenging for zerg, could play very solid starcraft, and come perilously close to losing against a zerg playing terribly.
It was not a nail biter and Flash base was hardly in danger in all 5 games (except 4pool) as I already stated. Tell me how many Flash scvs were killed in that series? You are trying too hard.
A good ZvT is not the one which people call is good but the one where no player makes neither big strategic nor micro mistakes. When they come prepared in top form. Unfortunately this is hardly the case for most games today and yet flying with your muta stack in the middle of the map into mm group, missing dropships, not killing science vessels, going full sunkenD mode and doing nothing with your muta except flying all over the map is a bad zerg play there is no other definition for that.
I am not a fan of defensive zerg strategies because they are situational and always look dumb when fail. Zerg should be aggressive and cunning, that's why I enjoy JD, Effort and Shine style more and I feel that this style is better against such players as Flash.
Letian at this point i dont really know what are u trying to explain anymore,for more than 20 years zerg ,in any form of skill zerg flight right into marines army.there re so many task to do,it is one of the most common mistakes u can find.and tbh you and the rest qhould stop praising the old games and actually watch it again,you guys are acting like grandmas.the skill is much higher now,u can see it daily on streams.i will not debate offline tourneys since not only skill matters.
On May 29 2017 02:10 letian wrote: This match was a walk in the park for Flash.
uuuhhhh, it was a 3-2 victory with a couple of clutch moments where Flash could've lost.
Flash did feel more dominant but calling it a walk in the park is just ridiculous.
Lucky 4 pool and really weird game on Andromeda where Soulkey used islands to survive? If Flash went mech, it would be a completely different game. For some strange reason he was sitting on pure mm whole time. The map is huge and he simply could not do the same he did on Outsider without being continuously harassed given their initial positioning. And even in that game Soulkey did not micro scourge at all to keep science vessels count low. Go, rewatch Effort vs Flash, JD vs Flash games to understand how a zerg should play in order to win against him and make a ZvT series great not mediocre as it was today.
God ur bad. In game 4 flash would have added tanks and taken the middle but he was denied a 4th base (remember the 12 lings sacking the half constructed CC). He obviously didn't have the economy to add a bunch of factories. SK dominated game 4.
Game 3 SK was pretty far ahead at one point and had 4 gases going while flash was on 2 bases. The main reason he lost is because when flash smashed his front he had to sacrifice his mutas for a hold. This lead to 2 things. 1 he had to re sunk his natural so he couldn't add them instead to his double gas base. Most importantly though he didn't have the mutas to defend the drops. If he has 12 mutas he can shut down those drops much easier knocking the d matrix off the dropships so scourge can do their things and also straight up killing marines and firebats as they come out. If SK holds that big bust a little more cleanly it is an ez game and he wins the series.
Game 5 if flash goes 14CC or some greedy build he straight up loses. SK even got far enough back into that game after being massively behind that he could have gone into a standard game and possibly won. Unfortunately he went all in on guardians having never seen the double port and possibly thinking he was further behind than he was thus the all in.
The series was actually very close and could have gone either way. Seems as though you base all of your thoughts on game 1
Soulkey is macro god. Remember watching him first time in ProLeague long time ago vs Sea. Hopefully he will be able to improve more to make terrans mortal.
On May 30 2017 18:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Letian at this point i dont really know what are u trying to explain anymore,for more than 20 years zerg ,in any form of skill zerg flight right into marines army.there re so many task to do,it is one of the most common mistakes u can find.and tbh you and the rest qhould stop praising the old games and actually watch it again,you guys are acting like grandmas.the skill is much higher now,u can see it daily on streams.i will not debate offline tourneys since not only skill matters.
Foreigner skill might be higher, korean skill is certainly not. Although koreans are getting better again. I would argue that the skill level at the top was quite a bit lower 2 years ago than it is now.
In game 4 flash would have added tanks and taken the middle but he was denied a 4th base (remember the 12 lings sacking the half constructed CC). He obviously didn't have the economy to add a bunch of factories. SK dominated game 4.
Game 3 SK was pretty far ahead at one point and had 4 gases going while flash was on 2 bases. The main reason he lost is because when flash smashed his front he had to sacrifice his mutas for a hold. This lead to 2 things. 1 he had to re sunk his natural so he couldn't add them instead to his double gas base. Most importantly though he didn't have the mutas to defend the drops. If he has 12 mutas he can shut down those drops much easier knocking the d matrix off the dropships so scourge can do their things and also straight up killing marines and firebats as they come out. If SK holds that big bust a little more cleanly it is an ez game and he wins the series.
Game 5 if flash goes 14CC or some greedy build he straight up loses. SK even got far enough back into that game after being massively behind that he could have gone into a standard game and possibly won. Unfortunately he went all in on guardians having never seen the double port and possibly thinking he was further behind than he was thus the all in.
The series was actually very close and could have gone either way.
On May 30 2017 18:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Letian at this point i dont really know what are u trying to explain anymore,for more than 20 years zerg ,in any form of skill zerg flight right into marines army.there re so many task to do,it is one of the most common mistakes u can find.and tbh you and the rest qhould stop praising the old games and actually watch it again,you guys are acting like grandmas.the skill is much higher now,u can see it daily on streams.i will not debate offline tourneys since not only skill matters.
Well, you said it yourself, one of the "common mistakes". Mistakes in semi-final have high cost. I prefer watching games without muta flying into mm and many other sloppy moments Soulkey showed us, it is not only about muta ffs.
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