EPT[ASL3] Soulkey vs BeSt - Page 10
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
Soulkey was sharp as hell and exploited a few critical mistakes from Best. But that did not make the games very entertaining or good. Game 2 being the exception, it was a good and interesting game. | ||
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infinity2k17
22 Posts
I can think of slight alternative layouts that defend the main ramp against lings and have the cannons/forge/gatway surrounding the nexus but i'm not sure how that would turn out in practice. It's normally like: 5 zealots (1 on the way), 2 cannons (1 or 2 on the way) and probes vs 8-10 hydras, around 8-10 lings So the hydras snipe a couple of slowlots who are now simply sponges/blocks to try and slow the Z down, they snipe the furthest buildings out and maybe lose a few hydras/lings at maximum. The P cannot engage and even if they do manage to put up cannons in time - the Zerg controls the entire map and can sit outside the base. I can't think of a better way to do it, but i wish there was because its frustrating to see this repeatedly.. the tight wall-in just gets all the P units stuck taking hits and hoping the cannons can do everything. Every time this happens i just going to guess about 8 out of 10 times the P loses - even scouting the Z build is not good enough. I know its always been complained about, but i'm usually someone who thinks there can be a reasonable response - in this case i really don't think there is. Rather than individual winstats, look at BO5's especially (because Z is comfortable and safe in rushing 2 times out of 5). Then there's the early midgame issues - the general problems with anti-air mean a muta switch is often the next killer blow you need to avoid - forcing P into sairs or trying to use templar/goons to kill mutas. Sometimes even a mainbase doom drop while you desperately try to get your goons back into your main to defend (hoping your own buildings are not making it even harder for you) Good Z's, even half-decent Z's hold the P on 2 bases, have a wide vision of the map and can control the flow of the game. I'm not saying Soulkey didn't deserve to win here, this is just in general - and having been on the receiving end of this type of play many times, having watched many many games. The fact he lost 2 games didn't matter because his wins were so strong on the other maps. Both loses were on Outsider/Camelot, 2 zerg favoured maps! One of which he went lurker vs a goon/reaver push (??). Sorry for the long post.. I just wanted to put in words what is frustrating about watching even the best P play against Zerg.. The post above me say BeSt mistakes lost him the game, certainly it didn't help - but how perfect can you expect a P to play - he's on the backfoot from the start unless he's doing a proxy 2gate or some kind of cut probes -> zealot timing attack. I don't know what the solution is, I don't like to suggest balance changes. The map certainly helps somewhat. A Forge FE Protoss in 2017 is giving Zerg a big advantage from the start, in my opinion. Edit: just another point, in all 3 of SK's wins, BeSt never even managed an engagement near SK's base or even a trade in the middle. It was defend until loss. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6547 Posts
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
Soulkey is a strong zerg player, but in some of his games, he just doesn't expand enough. Like in game 2 & 3, at some point, he just stops expanding after 3 bases and lets the protoss macro eventually roll over him. If he was going for a 3-base timing attack, sure, I understand. However, he stays on 3-base and stays passive. It makes no fucking sense. If you are going to stay passive, then expand more. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On May 22 2017 01:04 usopsama wrote: Thank god Soulkey won. I was so worried after game 2 & 3. Soulkey is a strong zerg player, but in some of his games, he just doesn't expand enough. Like in game 2 & 3, at some point, he just stops expanding after 3 bases and lets the protoss macro eventually roll over him. If he was going for a 3-base timing attack, sure, I understand. However, he stays on 3-base and stays passive. It makes no fucking sense. If you are going to stay passive, then expand more. In G2, SK took a 4th base. Then Best hit a deadly timing. He went a bit too heavy on lurkers against goons and reaver. Bad move in wide open engagements. But he probably went lurker to play defence and also drop harass. His game plan was clearly to macro up. If I remember correctly, in the post-game interview, he said something like being shaken by G2 and then decided to switch up and play more aggressively. Brings back memories of his reverse-kill against Inno in SC2 GSL. He adjusted mid-series, and his strategy paid off. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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Miragee
8497 Posts
Soulkey didn't really play that well, either. His anti-storm micro was pretty bad. He played kinda intelligent and used Best's fails to his advantage but I don't think he will be able to get anything done with that level of play against Last or Flash. | ||
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
On May 22 2017 02:56 blabber wrote: sad that Best's shuttle with two dark templars had died in Game 5, I'm pretty sure he was planning on getting maelstrom for the mutas Maybe that's why the goon range was delayed. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On May 22 2017 02:53 Miragee wrote: Well, that was a pretty disappointing series, especially comparing it to the other two... Best man, how can you mess up a ramp block with 3 zealots? One zealot ok, that happens because you have place it perfectly. 2 maybe but rarely. But 3? Wow. He messed up his blocks so often it wasn't even funny. If you play like that you deserve to go down. Soulkey didn't really play that well, either. His anti-storm micro was pretty bad. He played kinda intelligent and used Best's fails to his advantage but I don't think he will be able to get anything done with that level of play against Last or Flash. In the three leagues that is going on right now, ASL, TSL and SSL, Protoss is 14-3, 4-1 10-1 = 27-5 vs zerg. The five wins is: Shuttle vs PURPOSE, Movie vs Miso, Free vs Hero and Best two games vs Soulkey today. So the guy that actually manages to take 2 of the 5 total wins vs zerg this season in 32 games, deserves to go down on the fault of his own mistakes? You think that a score of 5-27 is just because protoss players are doing so many mistakes? Nothing to do with the MU being ridiculous difficult for the moment? I'm not saying it cant be fixed, but lets have this in mind before we criticise Best's performance today. | ||
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Miragee
8497 Posts
On May 22 2017 04:50 tanngard wrote: In the three leagues that is going on right now, ASL, TSL and SSL, Protoss is 14-3, 4-1 10-1 = 27-5 vs zerg. The five wins is: Shuttle vs PURPOSE, Movie vs Miso, Free vs Hero and Best two games vs Soulkey today. So the guy that actually manages to take 2 of the 5 total wins vs zerg this season in 32 games, deserves to go down on the fault of his own mistakes? You think that a score of 5-27 is just because protoss players are doing so many mistakes? Nothing to do with the MU being ridiculous difficult for the moment? I'm not saying it cant be fixed, but lets have this in mind before we criticise Best's performance today. Why did it become so popular recently to bring up these stats everytime, regardless of the argument. I don't care what the stats are because they have nothing to do with my statement, which still stands. If you can't even block your choke with zealots against ling runbys multiple times in a series, even simple blocks, then you deserve to go down. That's a D-level mistake right there (not that it happened at all but the amount of times it happened). Let's be honest here, Best would have probably taken the series if he didn't let those silly runbys happen. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
Pvt i think is the most balanced, pretty even historically and you can tell who played better clearly. Zvt is favoring terran so that makes terran the best race on all match ups. I hate seeing protoss lose against hydra bust bc, when the match up is decided based on losing your scouting probe and the zerg stays on top of your other probes trying to scout, how do you stay competitive without getting lucky? If you blindly build cannons and zerg fakes you, youre behind, you try to go standard and get your first corsair, you lose. Best did make some critical mistakes that cost him the series but it comes to question, where is there ever a time where protoss can equally exploit a zerg mistake and gain a considerable advantage bc of it? It seems protoss has to stay on top more often than not, just not to lose, while you cant say the same for zerg. This is like how pvz is to zvt, zerg makes a critical mustake against terran, they can lose outright. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10131 Posts
On May 22 2017 05:23 Moopower wrote: Why is pvz such a hard match up? I personally think zerg has it easy when it comes to defending while protoss defense can be cracked a lot easier when you get to defiler. Even with reavers, costs alot for scarabs, can get picked off easily even with shuttle by hydras. Most pvz battles protoss hardly micros shuttle reaver, bc they have to multi-task, macro etc while zerg doesnt have to baby sit their units as much. Pvt i think is the most balanced, pretty even historically and you can tell who played better clearly. Zvt is favoring terran so that makes terran the best race on all match ups. I hate seeing protoss lose against hydra bust bc, when the match up is decided based on losing your scouting probe and the zerg stays on top of your other probes trying to scout, how do you stay competitive without getting lucky? If you blindly build cannons and zerg fakes you, youre behind, you try to go standard and get your first corsair, you lose. Joins may 2017 with 8 posts and already making a balance whine comment? ????? please watch some more games before making a ridiculous comment like what i have highlighted in bold. zerg absolutely needs to baby their units otherwise their army will melt to storms. zerg is the highest apm race for a reason because of how micro intensive they need to be in all their fights in zvp to storm dodge, zvt to swarm properly and burrow lurkers properly and muta micro. you hate to see protoss lose to hydra bust? good, so do we. then hope that the protoss sends out a 2nd scouting probe and is able to see it because thats why protoss loses to hydra bust by not sending out 2nd probe to scout. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
On May 22 2017 05:39 FlaShFTW wrote: Joins may 2017 with 8 posts and already making a balance whine comment? ????? please watch some more games before making a ridiculous comment like what i have highlighted in bold. zerg absolutely needs to baby their units otherwise their army will melt to storms. zerg is the highest apm race for a reason because of how micro intensive they need to be in all their fights in zvp to storm dodge, zvt to swarm properly and burrow lurkers properly and muta micro. you hate to see protoss lose to hydra bust? good, so do we. then hope that the protoss sends out a 2nd scouting probe and is able to see it because thats why protoss loses to hydra bust by not sending out 2nd probe to scout. I have been in the scene for a lot longer than you realize, i forgot my old account. What i mean by baby sitting rather than pointing out apm is it is easier to dodge storms than it is to critically analyze the best position for reavers and target fire and your fragile units than it us more autonomous to see the storm placement and dodge. As for sending a 2nd probe out, of course protoss players should try to do this, but good zerg players will hunt the extra probe scouts and should be able to kill them due to their speed upgrade. You have to try to be inventive to make your probe be hidden, and a probe that is anywhere near their base should get sniped by a competent zerg player. It is basically up to the zerg to make a mistake and let a probe see the same way best made a mistake by letting lings come in the ramp. Arguing for an exception rather than the standard is never a good argument. When both parties being equal, Im arguing that zerg has it easier, which the stats seem to support. You either have a bunch of protoss players being inferior players or the race is inferior or the map pool. Or a combination. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10131 Posts
On May 22 2017 05:45 Moopower wrote: I have been in the scene for a lot longer than you realize, i forgot my old account. What i mean by baby sitting rather than pointing out apm is it is easier to dodge storms than ut is to critically analyze the best position for reavers and target fire and your fragile units than it us more autonomous to see the storm placement and dodge. As for sending a 2nd probe out, of course protoss players should try to do this, but good zerg players will hunt the extra probe scouts and should be able to kill them due to their speed upgrade. You have to try to be inventive to make your probe be hidden, and a probe that is anywhere near their base should get sniped by a competent zerg player. It is basically up to the zerg to make a mistake and let a probe see the same way best made a mistake by letting lings come in the ramp. You do not nearly need to position the reaver as well as you make it out to be. watch rain vs effort on circuit breakers in asl2. soulkey never once checked the 12 position in game 1. or in general that top area. sending out a 2nd probe as your 1st one is about to die and tuck it near the zerg base somewhere inconspicuous allows you to gather all the information you'll need until corsairs can come up. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
[QUOTE]On May 22 2017 05:45 Moopower wrote: [QUOTE]On May 22 2017 05:39 FlaShFTW wrote: [QUOTE]On May 22 2017 05:23 Moopower wrote: Why is pvz such a hard match up? I personally think zerg has it easy when it comes to defending while protoss defense can be cracked a lot easier when you get to defiler. Even with reavers, costs alot for scarabs, can get picked off easily even with shuttle by hydras. Most pvz battles protoss hardly micros shuttle reaver, bc they have to multi-task, macro etc while zerg doesnt have to baby sit their units as much. Pvt i think is the most balanced, pretty even historically and you can tell who played better clearly. Zvt is favoring terran so that makes terran the best race on all match ups. I hate seeing protoss lose against hydra bust bc, when the match up is decided based on losing your scouting probe and the zerg stays on top of your other probes trying to scout, how do you stay competitive without getting lucky? If you blindly build cannons and zerg fakes you, youre behind, you try to go standard and get your first corsair, you lose. [/QUOTE] Joins may 2017 with 8 posts and already making a balance whine comment? ????? please watch some more games before making a ridiculous comment like what i have highlighted in bold. zerg absolutely needs to baby their units otherwise their army will melt to storms. zerg is the highest apm race for a reason because of how micro intensive they need to be in all their fights in zvp to storm dodge, zvt to swarm properly and burrow lurkers properly and muta micro. you hate to see protoss lose to hydra bust? good, so do we. then hope that the protoss sends out a 2nd scouting probe and is able to see it because thats why protoss loses to hydra bust by not sending out 2nd probe to scout. [/QUOTE] I have been in the scene for a lot longer than you realize, i forgot my old account. What i mean by baby sitting rather than pointing out apm is it is easier to dodge storms than ut is to critically analyze the best position for reavers and target fire and your fragile units than it us more autonomous to see the storm placement and dodge. As for sending a 2nd probe out, of course protoss players should try to do this, but good zerg players will hunt the extra probe scouts and should be able to kill them due to their speed upgrade. You have to try to be inventive to make your probe be hidden, and a probe that is anywhere near their base should get sniped by a competent zerg player. It is basically up to the zerg to make a mistake and let a probe see the same way best made a mistake by letting lings come in the ramp. [/QUOTE] You do not nearly need to position the reaver as well as you make it out to be. watch rain vs effort on circuit breakers in asl2. soulkey never once checked the 12 position in game 1. or in general that top area. sending out a 2nd probe as your 1st one is about to die and tuck it near the zerg base somewhere inconspicuous allows you to gather all the information you'll need until corsairs can come up. [/QUOTE I can say the same about zerg dodging storms, position is key id say takes more focus than it takes to dodge storms, because you have to actually think where to place, even if it is a split second longer you have to predict and whether the hydra will focus the shuttle or the reaver amd how quick they can switch their targetting. storms dodging, you simply react and move out of the way, then let the ai do its job and let them atk, protoss is alot more manual in atking when it comes to certain key battles at a high level. however slight it may be still takes more focus. You can point out a specific game, and in that specific game you pointed out was his reavers in or out of position and did he have sufficient hydras to punish the reaver. You have to compare apples to apples, not just cite an example to where reavers made a good impact. or you can view the average pvz game where reavers take out just as much as they were worth. Protoss in order to win has to take much more units than they are worth because they cost more and take more time to reinforce and are slower moving across the map. Also your probe argument isnt great bc by the time the 1 st probe dies and best tries to send a 2nd probe out a competent zerg should scout to see the 2nd probe with the ol hovering over the natural and then it just comes down to hunting it down, which again is easy to find with the speed of the lings. | ||
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