[ASL3] Soulkey vs BeSt

On May 21 2017 17:06 Urth wrote:
Let's hope these semis continue to deliver. Soulkey fighting!

On May 21 2017 17:36 outscar wrote:
Soulkey looks solid as rock and scary as hell. I expect him to advance. If Outsider is going to be played two times then BeSt has no chance.

On May 21 2017 19:05 BLinD-RawR wrote:
wait
BeSt veto'd andromeda....how did outsider not become the repeat map

On May 21 2017 19:12 mdb wrote:
best music is just...

On May 21 2017 19:20 GTR wrote:
just a preview of bisu vs shine here guys, nothing to see.

On May 21 2017 19:21 sixfour wrote:
Shine immediately saving that replay for personal use

On May 21 2017 19:22 Disregard wrote:
I'm getting those Shine vs Bisu flashbacks again

On May 21 2017 19:23 Essbee wrote:


LOL

He probably already has it in his bag of builds anyway

On May 21 2017 19:22 mdb wrote:
last few days every zerg on afreeca was practicing hydra busts, surprised best didn`t prepare for that

On May 21 2017 19:24 xccam wrote:

I think it's safe to say that 3hatch hydra was probably the first build in the bag.

On May 21 2017 19:26 FlaShFTW wrote:
standard hydra bust. protosses really need to hide a 2nd probe to scout these out. the chance of dying to something so simple is too risky to not have that second probe out.

On May 21 2017 19:25 Ender2701 wrote:
This seems very common lately, protoss should really just build 3 cannons. The economic advantage of 2 cannons does not seem worth dying to hydra busts all the time.

On May 21 2017 19:21 TheNewEra wrote:
All the top Zergs have like a 70% winrate vs Protoss but guys tell me how Terran is op

On May 21 2017 19:30 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:

thumbs up!
notice how little whining there is in this thread after that game

On May 21 2017 19:34 ortseam wrote:
ahaha 3 hatch hydra beats everything

On May 21 2017 19:44 gngfn wrote:
Did Best's Citadel get sniped or something? Why does he not have speed at 15 minutes

On May 21 2017 19:45 Ubersturmfuhrer wrote:
nicee.. rooting for Best after that cheesy hydra bust. Also BW needs more protoss winning titles.

On May 21 2017 19:46 mdb wrote:
I like how in the begining of the game Artosis said that dragoons are useless vs zerg

On May 21 2017 19:46 mdb wrote:
I like how in the begining of the game Artosis said that dragoons are useless vs zerg

On May 21 2017 19:49 FlaShFTW wrote:

or maybe cause artosis doesnt know what hes talking about

On May 21 2017 19:58 ortseam wrote:
I hope Best reads TL and goes 4gate

On May 21 2017 19:56 Arvendilin wrote:


Have there been any solo casts recently?

On May 21 2017 20:01 c3rberUs wrote:

haha

On May 21 2017 20:05 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Whats the score? I just got up.

On May 21 2017 20:05 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Whats the score? I just got up.

On May 21 2017 20:05 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Whats the score? I just got up.

On May 21 2017 20:05 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Whats the score? I just got up.

On May 21 2017 20:08 FlaShFTW wrote:
Nice attack there. did anyone get a glimpse of the gateway count from best? was it 8 gate all in?

On May 21 2017 20:12 RKC wrote:
So does this mean Best > Bisu in PvZ?

On May 21 2017 20:47 Disregard wrote:
boring series between these 2 wtf

On May 21 2017 20:48 tube wrote:
i believe getting a dark archon and maelstrom is the answer to muta ht snipes

On May 21 2017 20:48 tube wrote:
i believe getting a dark archon and maelstrom is the answer to muta ht snipes

On May 21 2017 20:49 lolfail9001 wrote:

Is not maelstrom answer to everything zerg, anyway?

On May 21 2017 20:49 razorsuKe wrote:
here we go ZvZ finals!

On May 21 2017 20:49 BisuDagger wrote:
Honestly, if Flash wins next then I'm super excited for the next series.

On May 21 2017 20:49 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:


no!!! i hope you're not a prophet!

On May 21 2017 20:48 tube wrote:
i believe getting a dark archon and maelstrom is the answer to muta ht snipes

On May 21 2017 20:49 razorsuKe wrote:
here we go ZvZ finals!

On May 21 2017 20:49 lolfail9001 wrote:

Is not maelstrom answer to everything zerg, anyway?

On May 21 2017 20:48 tube wrote:
i believe getting a dark archon and maelstrom is the answer to muta ht snipes

On May 21 2017 20:50 Zariel wrote:
A-move hydras, micro mutas, snipe templars

On May 21 2017 20:53 FlaShFTW wrote:
I TOLD YOU ALL MUTA SWITCHES MAN

On May 21 2017 20:56 ortseam wrote:
Best actually forgot goon range, and the DT drop reaction was practically instant from SK, like wtf fast. Also good luck microing hydras when you have to keep the mutas moving around

On May 21 2017 20:52 arbiter_md wrote:
Somehow even that DT drop and couple of dodge-less storms didn't help Best to recover from that initial damage done by lings.

On May 21 2017 20:57 r.Evo wrote:

There was also an Overlord popping a few seconds before DTs got there so that helped a bit.

On May 21 2017 20:57 FlaShFTW wrote:

mass hydra will still melt to those 3 ht with at least 2 storms in each of them. but yes goon range does help but he melted to that attack, goon range does not save him there.

On May 21 2017 21:15 FlaShFTW wrote:

you do not have goon range that early with only like 5 goons out. rewatch the game. he had like 5 goons when the mutas first attacked and no protoss is getting goon range that early.

the only reason why protoss has a chance against zerg in mass attacks IS BECAUSE OF STORM. this is not a debatable issue. Protoss is able to hold their own against mass zerg because of AOE. rewatch the fight. sk gets hit by 2 storms without even dodging well and still wins the fight with 18 hydras left over. goon range on about 20 goons does not make him lose all 18 of those hydras. you are dead wrong, the muta switch is what won soulkey the game.

On May 22 2017 01:04 usopsama wrote:
Thank god Soulkey won. I was so worried after game 2 & 3.

Soulkey is a strong zerg player, but in some of his games, he just doesn't expand enough. Like in game 2 & 3, at some point, he just stops expanding after 3 bases and lets the protoss macro eventually roll over him. If he was going for a 3-base timing attack, sure, I understand. However, he stays on 3-base and stays passive. It makes no fucking sense. If you are going to stay passive, then expand more.

On May 22 2017 02:56 blabber wrote:
sad that Best's shuttle with two dark templars had died in Game 5, I'm pretty sure he was planning on getting maelstrom for the mutas

On May 22 2017 02:53 Miragee wrote:
Well, that was a pretty disappointing series, especially comparing it to the other two... Best man, how can you mess up a ramp block with 3 zealots? One zealot ok, that happens because you have place it perfectly. 2 maybe but rarely. But 3? Wow. He messed up his blocks so often it wasn't even funny. If you play like that you deserve to go down.
Soulkey didn't really play that well, either. His anti-storm micro was pretty bad. He played kinda intelligent and used Best's fails to his advantage but I don't think he will be able to get anything done with that level of play against Last or Flash.

On May 22 2017 04:50 tanngard wrote:

In the three leagues that is going on right now, ASL, TSL and SSL, Protoss is 14-3, 4-1 10-1 = 27-5 vs zerg.

The five wins is: Shuttle vs PURPOSE, Movie vs Miso, Free vs Hero and Best two games vs Soulkey today.

So the guy that actually manages to take 2 of the 5 total wins vs zerg this season in 32 games, deserves to go down on the fault of his own mistakes? You think that a score of 5-27 is just because protoss players are doing so many mistakes? Nothing to do with the MU being ridiculous difficult for the moment? I'm not saying it cant be fixed, but lets have this in mind before we criticise Best's performance today.

On May 22 2017 05:39 FlaShFTW wrote:

Joins may 2017 with 8 posts and already making a balance whine comment? ?????

please watch some more games before making a ridiculous comment like what i have highlighted in bold. zerg absolutely needs to baby their units otherwise their army will melt to storms. zerg is the highest apm race for a reason because of how micro intensive they need to be in all their fights in zvp to storm dodge, zvt to swarm properly and burrow lurkers properly and muta micro.

you hate to see protoss lose to hydra bust? good, so do we. then hope that the protoss sends out a 2nd scouting probe and is able to see it because thats why protoss loses to hydra bust by not sending out 2nd probe to scout.

On May 22 2017 05:39 FlaShFTW wrote:

Joins may 2017 with 8 posts and already making a balance whine comment? ?????

please watch some more games before making a ridiculous comment like what i have highlighted in bold. zerg absolutely needs to baby their units otherwise their army will melt to storms. zerg is the highest apm race for a reason because of how micro intensive they need to be in all their fights in zvp to storm dodge, zvt to swarm properly and burrow lurkers properly and muta micro.

you hate to see protoss lose to hydra bust? good, so do we. then hope that the protoss sends out a 2nd scouting probe and is able to see it because thats why protoss loses to hydra bust by not sending out 2nd probe to scout.

On May 22 2017 10:55 Morbidius wrote:
We can't have a single LR without balance whine nowadays.

On May 22 2017 13:05 Dante08 wrote:


In before balance whine for Flash vs Last

On May 22 2017 13:42 ggsimida wrote:
history and now has prove BeSt a tactical naive player in BoX matchups. If can't foresee and defend against early ling runbys/hydra busts won't expect him to do well against Flash anyway ^ ^

On May 21 2017 20:49 Terrorbladder wrote:
but you're on 2 bases and having to build units because zerg kept you in the dark whole game

On May 21 2017 21:07 xccam wrote:

Muta switches do not instantly win the game against protoss (even without corsairs) and Soulkey was not far enough ahead that there was nothing they could do. The reason BeSt lost that fight like he did was because he forgot Dragoon range. If you honestly think there was nothing BeSt could actively done to prevent that loss perhaps people SHOULD be complaining about zerg vs protoss.

On May 22 2017 06:32 ShowTheLights wrote:
Hydra busts are SO fucking stupid, I can't believe a matchup depends on keeping ONE probe alive to see what the zerg is doing

Soulkey is going to fucking get smashed when he cant hydra bust protosses anymore next round, one trick pony

On May 22 2017 12:27 TT1 wrote:
Best vs Flash/Last semis ruined by zerg cheese, sucks.

On May 22 2017 11:53 aTnClouD wrote:

Hydra busts are hard to hold because probe gets killed before being able to scout. It's the reason why we don't see a second probe being sent.

On May 22 2017 14:15 L_Master wrote:


Normal zergs don't get ling speed insanely fast, and it's usually possible to keep the probe alive for a very long time. The situation where the probe dies is usually:

1) Zerg is focusing like hell on trying to kill it and made 6 lings to help do so
2) Zerg got ling speed really fast, such that the probe dies a long time before corsair will be out

In that situation if you really can't sneak one out, then you can pressure with zealots a little bit to draw the lings away and use that to sneak the probe out. If zerg has enough lings that you're afraid to poke out with 2-3 zlots, and he has been super aggressively denying scout....what does that mean 95% of the time?

Yep, hydra bust.

So, under those already rare(ish) circumstances, build 2-3 extra pre-emptive cannons around that timing. Yes, if by chance zerg isn't going for a bust it's a setback for P. Nevertheless, I'd arguing winning, or at least not dying, in 95% of "suspicious situations" and being behind 5% of them is a better choice by far than dying 19/20 games just on the off chance it's the 1/20 chance zerg is playing standard.

On May 22 2017 15:35 Moopower wrote:


So your solution is to hope zerg doesn't mind fuck protoss with a speed ling investment to get the protoss to be defensive and assume hydra bust in those situations? Your argument is based on the fact of what ppl normally do when they get speedling, they do try to go all-in or cheese strategies hence why they make such effort to deny any scouting, but a smart zerg player could take adv of this, and force protoss to be defensive and just macro after his initial investment. It doesn't take a lot of lings to deny probe scouting, and then once protoss is left in the dark they have to overcompensate with massive cannons or try to get greedy and lucky, bc they don't have any scouting info other than speedlings.

If that were truly the case, zerg should just go speedling all the time and deny protoss scouting, and then fake going hydras and watch protoss have to climb back from being economically behind. What you should be doing is making cases of how progamers could overcome speedlings, with either their own aggression with zealots and then slip a probe by, or just go aggro with zealot and dragon. and then invest in tech later, forcing sunkens or at least a lot of lings at zerg's base and the game normalizes again.

On May 22 2017 14:06 L_Master wrote:
Corsairs. Before that a probe. If you fuck up and lose your probe, or can't get in you either pressure with zealots to see whats making or if that's too risky (ling speed + decent ling count) and zerg is being especially obnoxious about denying the scout you have to assume the worst and start an extra cannon or two at the right time.

On May 23 2017 01:04 rackdude wrote:
I agree with L_master that making a second cannon should just be done in any case where scouting was denied for far too long. It's not even that big of a deal. You're not economically behind because you won't need to cut probes for that small of a change.

Your army will be ever so slightly smaller, but that's okay. When you watch games from Rain and Bisu, you can see that once they get a big ball rolling in the middle of the map, they can utterly destroy Z forces repeatedly. Hell, you can even see that in some of BeSt's games from this series. Because of this, one popular tactic Z uses at this stage is to do backstabs and try to run some lings into the nat/main to get some probes. But that is essentially nullified by the extra cannon, so it's not like that cannon is useless. If it's put closer to the Nexus, it doubles as a muta and lurker drop deterrent, making it easier to move the whole army out to take/defend a third anyways. A third or fourth cannon with a scout? Sure that's overkill. But a second cannon isn't bad, and I think something along these lines should be tried out.

But BeSt's biggest issue is that he keeps losing corsairs, and even when he isn't, they aren't doing anything. It seems like one BeSt sees hydras, he throws his corsairs away like they don't mean anything, and that opens him up to the muta switch to get HT sniped. BeSt might as well just stash them in the corner of the map waiting for a muta switch instead of throwing them away every game. Hell, he'd be playing his own metagame: everyone muta switches against him because of how often he loses his corsairs.

On May 23 2017 07:50 Lebesgue wrote:
Haven't watched the series yet, but one should remember that Best was never known for his PvZ. Actually, his PvZ used to be rather weak. So I don't buy any whining about balance of PvZ.

On May 22 2017 21:47 IntoTheStorm wrote:
So... BW is quite well balanced, Best made more mistakes than Soulkey and so he logically lost.
As much as I am a protoss fanboy, I have to admit Soulkey played the better (made less mistakes) broodwar this series and clearly deserves his win in this bo5.
It wasn't as exciting as Bisu vs Ssak but it was still fun and enjoyable and that's all I can wish for.

On May 22 2017 11:53 aTnClouD wrote:

Hydra busts are hard to hold because probe gets killed before being able to scout. It's the reason why we don't see a second probe being sent.

On May 24 2017 08:32 ShowTheLights wrote:


Rewatch game 1 of best soulkey and tell me how the fuck best is supposed to know to build 4 cannons to defend the hydra bust

fucking bullshit, cant wait for soulkeys cheesy hydra bust ass to lose in T v Z

he got carried with 1 strat, beat bisu in Round of 16 and the round of 8 2 games

On May 24 2017 08:32 ShowTheLights wrote:
Rewatch game 1 of best soulkey and tell me how the fuck best is supposed to know to build 4 cannons to defend the hydra bust

On May 22 2017 16:17 L_Master wrote:


I think calling it a "solution" is quite a stretch. The face remains, if a zerg is really wants to deny protoss info before corsair he almost always can. There isn't really a solution to that. A goon serves no purpose against speedlings, and in order to amass the zlots you would need to be safe, you'd have to have played some alternate build with no/severaly delayed stargate and a super fast second gate, which really isn't that good of a build overall.

I think there are a few reasons don't fake hydra busts on a regular basis. The first is that they could quite simply shift the meta a bit so protoss is always being more safe, thus reducing the chances of an actual hydra bust working. More importantly, there are only two ways zerg can really deny scouting pre corsair.

1) Regular timed ling speed, but makes 6+ zergling to deny probe, and is willing to leave 2 on ramp. Even then, protoss should still be able to dance between natural and third of the zerg and just keep tabs on what is making. If he see's a hydra pop out of an egg...cannons! If zerg holds production from the natural to "hide the hydras" that would hugely weaken his attack. If the zerg makes more regular lings than that, then they are hurting their own economy some themselves and making 2 extra cannons is not going to set protoss painfully behind

2) Getting ling speed before lair - Unlike #1, this in theory can completely deny scouting. Protoss will be nervous about moving out, and any probe is easily chases. However, this is costly to the zerg, especially in the context of wanting to fake bust but play a normal game. Lair will be significantly delayed, meaning that zerg will have to sack at least 2 OL, perhaps more, OR build spore/hydra. All of these cost money and slow zerg down. I strongly suspect that making 2 extra cannons as protoss in this situation would be, at worst, a marginal setback. It's quite possible protoss doesn't even come out behind at all. Zerg forces 2 cannons, P corsairs force 2 spore or 4-6 larva/drone for protoss.

Most zergs don't go fast speedlings without a reason. It just slows down your lair and forces you to have to make hydra really fast or spore up versus corsairs.

On May 24 2017 08:05 _Animus_ wrote:
This map pool is fucking protoss graveyard. Best had to do magic to survive. With almost perfect play in 4 out of 5 games, it was such a struggle that its sad.
You know whats more sad? the score tanngard mentioned - 5 win vs 27 losses in pvz matchup. Tell me more about balance.
Protoss is so vunerable vs Zerg. At the same the flexible zerg can defend easily everything that is thrown at him...

On May 24 2017 16:17 Moopower wrote:


So far you only been agreeing with my points. I was responded to that post as "their solution" not mine, which if you read between the lines, it was a bad solution which is clearly implied, that to hope for zerg to be a subpar zerg to not be able to deny scouting probe with speedlings which you agreed with.

Now your point about zerg not doing hydra busts on the regular due to it becoming meta therefore being predictable isn't a good argument imo. Because like I stated in the earlier post, a smart zerg will often fake hydra busts forcing protoss to invest in a lot of cannons to survive and they go on to macro instead and pull out ahead economically, now your point about getting lingspeed at a regular time still will deny probe. Hydras should start building around late 4 min mark - 5 minutes. Probe will be dead long before then.

It basically becomes a coinflip or rock paper scissors game to where the player has to read the opponent on if they are actually committing to the hydra bust or if it's a fake. If they guess right protoss is ahead, if he guesses wrong or doesn't get enough scouting info which you yourself have agreed zerg could deny scouting if he was determined to do can accomplish.

If protoss doesn't get enough scouting info, protoss has to either guess and get lucky that he got away with not making cannons and guessed correctly that hydra bust wasn't coming, but this is all based on the assumption that if zerg was a competent player and denied scouting. Now of course there may be games where zerg fails to deny scouting, but do you really want to base PvZ on the basis of zerg playing bad to allow the game to continue and have the matchup contingent on some idiotic strategy like that?

I'm not sure if there are a lot of brilliant strategists among the progamers. I think a lot of them just go with the status quo and some exceptional players like Flash, bisu,etc kind of reinvent the wheel for everyone. When Flash was on top of his dominance in 2010-2012, you could see the games were past the level of just who had better macro, micro, and multitasking, it was also about reading the opponent's strategy and exploiting how the opponent did not anticipate.

If players like shine and soulkey mastered their macro and multitasking abilities more, they would be a true force to be reckoned with. Their strongest points are their tactical and strategic play. So imagine soulkey who had macro that rivaled best but as a zerg. Who faked a hydra bust, forcing best to make cannons and then soulkey just goes back to macroing while keeping best pinned on 2 bases. That is truly fearsome.

I can't really prove that there is an imbalance in favor of zerg in a PvZ, but there may be some truth to it when you look at it logically this way. Either majority of protoss with exception of bisu are worse players in general, or Zerg is slightly better in the PvZ match up, or map imbalances. So one of those 3 has to be the answer. So do we assume protoss players are just generally worse for years of progaming? Or do we assume a combination of map pool and worse protoss players, or perhaps the match up is favored for zerg? I mean if the statistics always point back to Z>P, I think if we had years of different maps favoring different races, it's hard to justify that it's always because of the maps or the player. Again I can't prove that PvZ is favoring for zerg, but based on a lot of difficulty in the early game of denying of scouting, ease of defending of zerg bases vs protoss (nydus, lurker spore sunk,lings are fast and cheap to reinforce and cut up the protoss army that take a long time to siege a base) this is just my opinion based on those reasons.

If you can point to more successful protoss players who can consistently punish a zerg player for playing worse then I may reconsider, but even I see Bisu struggling against lesser Zergs and he comes to trade bases sometimes and the defense of zerg whittles down his army while his defenses crack so easily with dark swarm. Hts and reavers defending can defend well but not as well as sunk, spore lurker sim city def.

Now of course there may be games where zerg fails to deny scouting, but do you really want to base PvZ on the basis of zerg playing bad to allow the game to continue and have the matchup contingent on some idiotic strategy like that?

I mean if the statistics always point back to Z>P, I think if we had years of different maps favoring different races, it's hard to justify that it's always because of the maps or the player. Again I can't prove that PvZ is favoring for zerg, but based on a lot of difficulty in the early game of denying of scouting, ease of defending of zerg bases vs protoss (nydus, lurker spore sunk,lings are fast and cheap to reinforce and cut up the protoss army that take a long time to siege a base) this is just my opinion based on those reasons.

If you can point to more successful protoss players who can consistently punish a zerg player for playing worse then I may reconsider, but even I see Bisu struggling against lesser Zergs and he comes to trade bases sometimes and the defense of zerg whittles down his army while his defenses crack so easily with dark swarm. Hts and reavers defending can defend well but not as well as sunk, spore lurker sim city def.

On May 24 2017 08:05 _Animus_ wrote:
This map pool is fucking protoss graveyard. Best had to do magic to survive. With almost perfect play in 4 out of 5 games, it was such a struggle that its sad.
You know whats more sad? the score tanngard mentioned - 5 win vs 27 losses in pvz matchup. Tell me more about balance.
Protoss is so vunerable vs Zerg. At the same the flexible zerg can defend easily everything that is thrown at him...

On May 25 2017 04:22 L_Master wrote:


By "almost perfect" you actually meant "generally medicore with lots of sloppy mistakers" right? Best's play was about as "almost perfect" as my heavily burnt piece of toast this morning.

Atrocious ramp blocking, atrocious corsair usage (almost non-existant) + losing sairs to hydra in middle of the map over and over, poor army control at times, poor response to zerglings in his main, etc.

MTA: As a side note: what in the actual fuck is up with all the balance noise lately. I was initially thinking it was due to many people coming in from SC2, where with the constant patching real balance issues do crop up, not to mention a culture of balance whining...but honestly when I look at the outright complaints or salty messages a TON of them are from longtime BW forum vets.