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On May 22 2017 15:35 Moopower wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 14:15 L_Master wrote:On May 22 2017 11:53 aTnClouD wrote:On May 22 2017 05:39 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 22 2017 05:23 Moopower wrote:
Why is pvz such a hard match up? I personally think zerg has it easy when it comes to defending while protoss defense can be cracked a lot easier when you get to defiler. Even with reavers, costs alot for scarabs, can get picked off easily even with shuttle by hydras. Most pvz battles protoss hardly micros shuttle reaver, bc they have to multi-task, macro etc while zerg doesnt have to baby sit their units as much.
Pvt i think is the most balanced, pretty even historically and you can tell who played better clearly.
Zvt is favoring terran so that makes terran the best race on all match ups.
I hate seeing protoss lose against hydra bust bc, when the match up is decided based on losing your scouting probe and the zerg stays on top of your other probes trying to scout, how do you stay competitive without getting lucky?
If you blindly build cannons and zerg fakes you, youre behind, you try to go standard and get your first corsair, you lose.
Joins may 2017 with 8 posts and already making a balance whine comment? ????? please watch some more games before making a ridiculous comment like what i have highlighted in bold. zerg absolutely needs to baby their units otherwise their army will melt to storms. zerg is the highest apm race for a reason because of how micro intensive they need to be in all their fights in zvp to storm dodge, zvt to swarm properly and burrow lurkers properly and muta micro. you hate to see protoss lose to hydra bust? good, so do we. then hope that the protoss sends out a 2nd scouting probe and is able to see it because thats why protoss loses to hydra bust by not sending out 2nd probe to scout. Hydra busts are hard to hold because probe gets killed before being able to scout. It's the reason why we don't see a second probe being sent. Normal zergs don't get ling speed insanely fast, and it's usually possible to keep the probe alive for a very long time. The situation where the probe dies is usually: 1) Zerg is focusing like hell on trying to kill it and made 6 lings to help do so 2) Zerg got ling speed really fast, such that the probe dies a long time before corsair will be out In that situation if you really can't sneak one out, then you can pressure with zealots a little bit to draw the lings away and use that to sneak the probe out. If zerg has enough lings that you're afraid to poke out with 2-3 zlots, and he has been super aggressively denying scout....what does that mean 95% of the time? Yep, hydra bust. So, under those already rare(ish) circumstances, build 2-3 extra pre-emptive cannons around that timing. Yes, if by chance zerg isn't going for a bust it's a setback for P. Nevertheless, I'd arguing winning, or at least not dying, in 95% of "suspicious situations" and being behind 5% of them is a better choice by far than dying 19/20 games just on the off chance it's the 1/20 chance zerg is playing standard. So your solution is to hope zerg doesn't mind fuck protoss with a speed ling investment to get the protoss to be defensive and assume hydra bust in those situations? Your argument is based on the fact of what ppl normally do when they get speedling, they do try to go all-in or cheese strategies hence why they make such effort to deny any scouting, but a smart zerg player could take adv of this, and force protoss to be defensive and just macro after his initial investment. It doesn't take a lot of lings to deny probe scouting, and then once protoss is left in the dark they have to overcompensate with massive cannons or try to get greedy and lucky, bc they don't have any scouting info other than speedlings. If that were truly the case, zerg should just go speedling all the time and deny protoss scouting, and then fake going hydras and watch protoss have to climb back from being economically behind. What you should be doing is making cases of how progamers could overcome speedlings, with either their own aggression with zealots and then slip a probe by, or just go aggro with zealot and dragon. and then invest in tech later, forcing sunkens or at least a lot of lings at zerg's base and the game normalizes again.
I think calling it a "solution" is quite a stretch. The face remains, if a zerg is really wants to deny protoss info before corsair he almost always can. There isn't really a solution to that. A goon serves no purpose against speedlings, and in order to amass the zlots you would need to be safe, you'd have to have played some alternate build with no/severaly delayed stargate and a super fast second gate, which really isn't that good of a build overall.
I think there are a few reasons don't fake hydra busts on a regular basis. The first is that they could quite simply shift the meta a bit so protoss is always being more safe, thus reducing the chances of an actual hydra bust working. More importantly, there are only two ways zerg can really deny scouting pre corsair.
1) Regular timed ling speed, but makes 6+ zergling to deny probe, and is willing to leave 2 on ramp. Even then, protoss should still be able to dance between natural and third of the zerg and just keep tabs on what is making. If he see's a hydra pop out of an egg...cannons! If zerg holds production from the natural to "hide the hydras" that would hugely weaken his attack. If the zerg makes more regular lings than that, then they are hurting their own economy some themselves and making 2 extra cannons is not going to set protoss painfully behind
2) Getting ling speed before lair - Unlike #1, this in theory can completely deny scouting. Protoss will be nervous about moving out, and any probe is easily chases. However, this is costly to the zerg, especially in the context of wanting to fake bust but play a normal game. Lair will be significantly delayed, meaning that zerg will have to sack at least 2 OL, perhaps more, OR build spore/hydra. All of these cost money and slow zerg down. I strongly suspect that making 2 extra cannons as protoss in this situation would be, at worst, a marginal setback. It's quite possible protoss doesn't even come out behind at all. Zerg forces 2 cannons, P corsairs force 2 spore or 4-6 larva/drone for protoss.
Most zergs don't go fast speedlings without a reason. It just slows down your lair and forces you to have to make hydra really fast or spore up versus corsairs.
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So... BW is quite well balanced, Best made more mistakes than Soulkey and so he logically lost.
As much as I am a protoss fanboy, I have to admit Soulkey played the better (made less mistakes) broodwar this series and clearly deserves his win in this bo5.
It wasn't as exciting as Bisu vs Ssak but it was still fun and enjoyable and that's all I can wish for.
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On May 22 2017 14:06 L_Master wrote:
Corsairs. Before that a probe. If you fuck up and lose your probe, or can't get in you either pressure with zealots to see whats making or if that's too risky (ling speed + decent ling count) and zerg is being especially obnoxious about denying the scout you have to assume the worst and start an extra cannon or two at the right time.
I agree with a lot of the points you made, Soulkey has been looking great since winning the team battle finale on his own.
But there is a balance problem with hydra busts. There is a balance problem with protoss deathball vs. zerg as well. Broodwar is a game where every race has a lot of totally overpowered tools against the others.
Corsairs is to slow for what people are talking about, once you scout it with your corsair its to late.
Pressuring with zealots opens up runbys and when you lose the zealots you definitely wont hold the hydra bust.
Since the zerg can scout protoss easier than the protoss can scout zerg if they see to many cannons they can simply back of and drone up or even take another base instead of going for the bust.
Of course, I am oversimplifying this a lot and I am way to onesided in my argument but I think it is a pretty clear fact that Zerg is overpowered vs Protoss in this part of the game.
That doesn't necessarily make them overpowered or imbalanced as a whole, but this stage of the game is tough for protoss. Some maps make it easier to deal with and some harder.
In this specific series Best made a few crucial mistake that someone at his level shouldn't have, so whining about imbalance impacting this series feels like a stretch.
I thought the games were super disappointing because of Bests mistakes, not anything to do with imbalance.
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This series was strange, it was more about dont make mistakes than making awesome moves. Well deserved for Soulkey anyway..
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I agree with L_master that making a second cannon should just be done in any case where scouting was denied for far too long. It's not even that big of a deal. You're not economically behind because you won't need to cut probes for that small of a change.
Your army will be ever so slightly smaller, but that's okay. When you watch games from Rain and Bisu, you can see that once they get a big ball rolling in the middle of the map, they can utterly destroy Z forces repeatedly. Hell, you can even see that in some of BeSt's games from this series. Because of this, one popular tactic Z uses at this stage is to do backstabs and try to run some lings into the nat/main to get some probes. But that is essentially nullified by the extra cannon, so it's not like that cannon is useless. If it's put closer to the Nexus, it doubles as a muta and lurker drop deterrent, making it easier to move the whole army out to take/defend a third anyways. A third or fourth cannon with a scout? Sure that's overkill. But a second cannon isn't bad, and I think something along these lines should be tried out.
But BeSt's biggest issue is that he keeps losing corsairs, and even when he isn't, they aren't doing anything. It seems like one BeSt sees hydras, he throws his corsairs away like they don't mean anything, and that opens him up to the muta switch to get HT sniped. BeSt might as well just stash them in the corner of the map waiting for a muta switch instead of throwing them away every game. Hell, he'd be playing his own metagame: everyone muta switches against him because of how often he loses his corsairs.
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curious, if you combine ASL1, 2, 3 then what are the stats for PvZ
going off liquipedia seems to be 21-19 in favor of zerg from group stage onward
probably this season map just sucks for toss?
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On May 23 2017 01:04 rackdude wrote:
I agree with L_master that making a second cannon should just be done in any case where scouting was denied for far too long. It's not even that big of a deal. You're not economically behind because you won't need to cut probes for that small of a change.
Your army will be ever so slightly smaller, but that's okay. When you watch games from Rain and Bisu, you can see that once they get a big ball rolling in the middle of the map, they can utterly destroy Z forces repeatedly. Hell, you can even see that in some of BeSt's games from this series. Because of this, one popular tactic Z uses at this stage is to do backstabs and try to run some lings into the nat/main to get some probes. But that is essentially nullified by the extra cannon, so it's not like that cannon is useless. If it's put closer to the Nexus, it doubles as a muta and lurker drop deterrent, making it easier to move the whole army out to take/defend a third anyways. A third or fourth cannon with a scout? Sure that's overkill. But a second cannon isn't bad, and I think something along these lines should be tried out.
But BeSt's biggest issue is that he keeps losing corsairs, and even when he isn't, they aren't doing anything. It seems like one BeSt sees hydras, he throws his corsairs away like they don't mean anything, and that opens him up to the muta switch to get HT sniped. BeSt might as well just stash them in the corner of the map waiting for a muta switch instead of throwing them away every game. Hell, he'd be playing his own metagame: everyone muta switches against him because of how often he loses his corsairs.
Originally, when Bisu made Forge FE viable/standard, the build took two cannons for granted. Later protoss players started to cut the second cannon because they could get away with it in the meta.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Man, this series was a downer in comparison to the other two series. Game 2 and 3 were interesting for sure, but game 4 and 5, BeSt completed botched his wall. May not have lost him the game but in game 4 at least, it put him behind. I was hoping that Soulkey would go mutalisks in one of the games but he never did until game 5 to snipe hts. BeSt's unit control was terrible overall. His macro was on point at least.
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Haven't watched the series yet, but one should remember that Best was never known for his PvZ. Actually, his PvZ used to be rather weak. So I don't buy any whining about balance of PvZ.
Of course PvZ is historically the tough match-up for P, but not to the point where the outcome of the game is decided before the game. Each race has one relatively easier and one relatively harder match-up. Overall if you play better than your opponent, you will win irrespective of the race and the match-up.
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On May 23 2017 07:50 Lebesgue wrote:
Haven't watched the series yet, but one should remember that Best was never known for his PvZ. Actually, his PvZ used to be rather weak. So I don't buy any whining about balance of PvZ.
Exactly. Best's PvT and PvP have always been beastly while his PvZ is still lackluster. I thought there would be more people in the LR thread making fun of his hilaribad corsair usage: making really low numbers and accomplishing almost nothing with them before carelessly losing them to scourge and hydras. Dohsairs indeed.
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Yeah his corsair usage was garbage and so were his walls, 2 games with zerglings sneaking in...
Also people forget too quickly this was 3-2 and could have very well gone Best's way.
He should never lose this last game I still have no idea how he could die to this push after defending the first one, would need the replay.
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We getting a last vs flash thread? I'm for one am hyped as f**k.
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This map pool is fucking protoss graveyard. Best had to do magic to survive. With almost perfect play in 4 out of 5 games, it was such a struggle that its sad.
You know whats more sad? the score tanngard mentioned - 5 win vs 27 losses in pvz matchup. Tell me more about balance.
Protoss is so vunerable vs Zerg. At the same the flexible zerg can defend easily everything that is thrown at him...
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On May 22 2017 21:47 IntoTheStorm wrote:
So... BW is quite well balanced, Best made more mistakes than Soulkey and so he logically lost.
As much as I am a protoss fanboy, I have to admit Soulkey played the better (made less mistakes) broodwar this series and clearly deserves his win in this bo5.
It wasn't as exciting as Bisu vs Ssak but it was still fun and enjoyable and that's all I can wish for.
Rewatch game 1 of best soulkey and tell me how the fuck best is supposed to know to build 4 cannons to defend the hydra bust
fucking bullshit, cant wait for soulkeys cheesy hydra bust ass to lose in T v Z
he got carried with 1 strat, beat bisu in Round of 16 and the round of 8 2 games
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On May 22 2017 11:53 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 05:39 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 22 2017 05:23 Moopower wrote:
Why is pvz such a hard match up? I personally think zerg has it easy when it comes to defending while protoss defense can be cracked a lot easier when you get to defiler. Even with reavers, costs alot for scarabs, can get picked off easily even with shuttle by hydras. Most pvz battles protoss hardly micros shuttle reaver, bc they have to multi-task, macro etc while zerg doesnt have to baby sit their units as much.
Pvt i think is the most balanced, pretty even historically and you can tell who played better clearly.
Zvt is favoring terran so that makes terran the best race on all match ups.
I hate seeing protoss lose against hydra bust bc, when the match up is decided based on losing your scouting probe and the zerg stays on top of your other probes trying to scout, how do you stay competitive without getting lucky?
If you blindly build cannons and zerg fakes you, youre behind, you try to go standard and get your first corsair, you lose.
Joins may 2017 with 8 posts and already making a balance whine comment? ????? please watch some more games before making a ridiculous comment like what i have highlighted in bold. zerg absolutely needs to baby their units otherwise their army will melt to storms. zerg is the highest apm race for a reason because of how micro intensive they need to be in all their fights in zvp to storm dodge, zvt to swarm properly and burrow lurkers properly and muta micro. you hate to see protoss lose to hydra bust? good, so do we. then hope that the protoss sends out a 2nd scouting probe and is able to see it because thats why protoss loses to hydra bust by not sending out 2nd probe to scout. Hydra busts are hard to hold because probe gets killed before being able to scout. It's the reason why we don't see a second probe being sent.
THANK YOU
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On May 24 2017 08:32 ShowTheLights wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 21:47 IntoTheStorm wrote:
So... BW is quite well balanced, Best made more mistakes than Soulkey and so he logically lost.
As much as I am a protoss fanboy, I have to admit Soulkey played the better (made less mistakes) broodwar this series and clearly deserves his win in this bo5.
It wasn't as exciting as Bisu vs Ssak but it was still fun and enjoyable and that's all I can wish for. Rewatch game 1 of best soulkey and tell me how the fuck best is supposed to know to build 4 cannons to defend the hydra bust fucking bullshit, cant wait for soulkeys cheesy hydra bust ass to lose in T v Z he got carried with 1 strat, beat bisu in Round of 16 and the round of 8 2 games Are you honestly trying to contend protoss have no means of scouting and responding to a hydra rush? Get out of d- kid.
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On May 24 2017 08:32 ShowTheLights wrote:
Rewatch game 1 of best soulkey and tell me how the fuck best is supposed to know to build 4 cannons to defend the hydra bust
Rewatch Best vs JD ASL 2 on the same map to get your answer
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These series really delivered. I am now a fan of new maps like outsider, all these new maps introduce a factor of adaptability that is really interesting to watch.
The last 2 games were certainly decided by Best's mistakes which Soulkey abused perfectly.
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On May 22 2017 16:17 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 15:35 Moopower wrote:On May 22 2017 14:15 L_Master wrote:On May 22 2017 11:53 aTnClouD wrote:On May 22 2017 05:39 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 22 2017 05:23 Moopower wrote:
Why is pvz such a hard match up? I personally think zerg has it easy when it comes to defending while protoss defense can be cracked a lot easier when you get to defiler. Even with reavers, costs alot for scarabs, can get picked off easily even with shuttle by hydras. Most pvz battles protoss hardly micros shuttle reaver, bc they have to multi-task, macro etc while zerg doesnt have to baby sit their units as much.
Pvt i think is the most balanced, pretty even historically and you can tell who played better clearly.
Zvt is favoring terran so that makes terran the best race on all match ups.
I hate seeing protoss lose against hydra bust bc, when the match up is decided based on losing your scouting probe and the zerg stays on top of your other probes trying to scout, how do you stay competitive without getting lucky?
If you blindly build cannons and zerg fakes you, youre behind, you try to go standard and get your first corsair, you lose.
Joins may 2017 with 8 posts and already making a balance whine comment? ????? please watch some more games before making a ridiculous comment like what i have highlighted in bold. zerg absolutely needs to baby their units otherwise their army will melt to storms. zerg is the highest apm race for a reason because of how micro intensive they need to be in all their fights in zvp to storm dodge, zvt to swarm properly and burrow lurkers properly and muta micro. you hate to see protoss lose to hydra bust? good, so do we. then hope that the protoss sends out a 2nd scouting probe and is able to see it because thats why protoss loses to hydra bust by not sending out 2nd probe to scout. Hydra busts are hard to hold because probe gets killed before being able to scout. It's the reason why we don't see a second probe being sent. Normal zergs don't get ling speed insanely fast, and it's usually possible to keep the probe alive for a very long time. The situation where the probe dies is usually: 1) Zerg is focusing like hell on trying to kill it and made 6 lings to help do so 2) Zerg got ling speed really fast, such that the probe dies a long time before corsair will be out In that situation if you really can't sneak one out, then you can pressure with zealots a little bit to draw the lings away and use that to sneak the probe out. If zerg has enough lings that you're afraid to poke out with 2-3 zlots, and he has been super aggressively denying scout....what does that mean 95% of the time? Yep, hydra bust. So, under those already rare(ish) circumstances, build 2-3 extra pre-emptive cannons around that timing. Yes, if by chance zerg isn't going for a bust it's a setback for P. Nevertheless, I'd arguing winning, or at least not dying, in 95% of "suspicious situations" and being behind 5% of them is a better choice by far than dying 19/20 games just on the off chance it's the 1/20 chance zerg is playing standard. So your solution is to hope zerg doesn't mind fuck protoss with a speed ling investment to get the protoss to be defensive and assume hydra bust in those situations? Your argument is based on the fact of what ppl normally do when they get speedling, they do try to go all-in or cheese strategies hence why they make such effort to deny any scouting, but a smart zerg player could take adv of this, and force protoss to be defensive and just macro after his initial investment. It doesn't take a lot of lings to deny probe scouting, and then once protoss is left in the dark they have to overcompensate with massive cannons or try to get greedy and lucky, bc they don't have any scouting info other than speedlings. If that were truly the case, zerg should just go speedling all the time and deny protoss scouting, and then fake going hydras and watch protoss have to climb back from being economically behind. What you should be doing is making cases of how progamers could overcome speedlings, with either their own aggression with zealots and then slip a probe by, or just go aggro with zealot and dragon. and then invest in tech later, forcing sunkens or at least a lot of lings at zerg's base and the game normalizes again. I think calling it a "solution" is quite a stretch. The face remains, if a zerg is really wants to deny protoss info before corsair he almost always can. There isn't really a solution to that. A goon serves no purpose against speedlings, and in order to amass the zlots you would need to be safe, you'd have to have played some alternate build with no/severaly delayed stargate and a super fast second gate, which really isn't that good of a build overall. I think there are a few reasons don't fake hydra busts on a regular basis. The first is that they could quite simply shift the meta a bit so protoss is always being more safe, thus reducing the chances of an actual hydra bust working. More importantly, there are only two ways zerg can really deny scouting pre corsair. 1) Regular timed ling speed, but makes 6+ zergling to deny probe, and is willing to leave 2 on ramp. Even then, protoss should still be able to dance between natural and third of the zerg and just keep tabs on what is making. If he see's a hydra pop out of an egg...cannons! If zerg holds production from the natural to "hide the hydras" that would hugely weaken his attack. If the zerg makes more regular lings than that, then they are hurting their own economy some themselves and making 2 extra cannons is not going to set protoss painfully behind 2) Getting ling speed before lair - Unlike #1, this in theory can completely deny scouting. Protoss will be nervous about moving out, and any probe is easily chases. However, this is costly to the zerg, especially in the context of wanting to fake bust but play a normal game. Lair will be significantly delayed, meaning that zerg will have to sack at least 2 OL, perhaps more, OR build spore/hydra. All of these cost money and slow zerg down. I strongly suspect that making 2 extra cannons as protoss in this situation would be, at worst, a marginal setback. It's quite possible protoss doesn't even come out behind at all. Zerg forces 2 cannons, P corsairs force 2 spore or 4-6 larva/drone for protoss. Most zergs don't go fast speedlings without a reason. It just slows down your lair and forces you to have to make hydra really fast or spore up versus corsairs.
So far you only been agreeing with my points. I was responded to that post as "their solution" not mine, which if you read between the lines, it was a bad solution which is clearly implied, that to hope for zerg to be a subpar zerg to not be able to deny scouting probe with speedlings which you agreed with.
Now your point about zerg not doing hydra busts on the regular due to it becoming meta therefore being predictable isn't a good argument imo. Because like I stated in the earlier post, a smart zerg will often fake hydra busts forcing protoss to invest in a lot of cannons to survive and they go on to macro instead and pull out ahead economically, now your point about getting lingspeed at a regular time still will deny probe. Hydras should start building around late 4 min mark - 5 minutes. Probe will be dead long before then.
It basically becomes a coinflip or rock paper scissors game to where the player has to read the opponent on if they are actually committing to the hydra bust or if it's a fake. If they guess right protoss is ahead, if he guesses wrong or doesn't get enough scouting info which you yourself have agreed zerg could deny scouting if he was determined to do can accomplish.
If protoss doesn't get enough scouting info, protoss has to either guess and get lucky that he got away with not making cannons and guessed correctly that hydra bust wasn't coming, but this is all based on the assumption that if zerg was a competent player and denied scouting. Now of course there may be games where zerg fails to deny scouting, but do you really want to base PvZ on the basis of zerg playing bad to allow the game to continue and have the matchup contingent on some idiotic strategy like that?
I'm not sure if there are a lot of brilliant strategists among the progamers. I think a lot of them just go with the status quo and some exceptional players like Flash, bisu,etc kind of reinvent the wheel for everyone. When Flash was on top of his dominance in 2010-2012, you could see the games were past the level of just who had better macro, micro, and multitasking, it was also about reading the opponent's strategy and exploiting how the opponent did not anticipate.
If players like shine and soulkey mastered their macro and multitasking abilities more, they would be a true force to be reckoned with. Their strongest points are their tactical and strategic play. So imagine soulkey who had macro that rivaled best but as a zerg. Who faked a hydra bust, forcing best to make cannons and then soulkey just goes back to macroing while keeping best pinned on 2 bases. That is truly fearsome.
I can't really prove that there is an imbalance in favor of zerg in a PvZ, but there may be some truth to it when you look at it logically this way. Either majority of protoss with exception of bisu are worse players in general, or Zerg is slightly better in the PvZ match up, or map imbalances. So one of those 3 has to be the answer. So do we assume protoss players are just generally worse for years of progaming? Or do we assume a combination of map pool and worse protoss players, or perhaps the match up is favored for zerg? I mean if the statistics always point back to Z>P, I think if we had years of different maps favoring different races, it's hard to justify that it's always because of the maps or the player. Again I can't prove that PvZ is favoring for zerg, but based on a lot of difficulty in the early game of denying of scouting, ease of defending of zerg bases vs protoss (nydus, lurker spore sunk,lings are fast and cheap to reinforce and cut up the protoss army that take a long time to siege a base) this is just my opinion based on those reasons.
If you can point to more successful protoss players who can consistently punish a zerg player for playing worse then I may reconsider, but even I see Bisu struggling against lesser Zergs and he comes to trade bases sometimes and the defense of zerg whittles down his army while his defenses crack so easily with dark swarm. Hts and reavers defending can defend well but not as well as sunk, spore lurker sim city def.
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On May 24 2017 08:05 _Animus_ wrote:
This map pool is fucking protoss graveyard. Best had to do magic to survive. With almost perfect play in 4 out of 5 games, it was such a struggle that its sad.
You know whats more sad? the score tanngard mentioned - 5 win vs 27 losses in pvz matchup. Tell me more about balance.
Protoss is so vunerable vs Zerg. At the same the flexible zerg can defend easily everything that is thrown at him...
"almost perfect play in 4 out of 5 games"
Did we watch the same series?
Best made tonnes of mistakes.
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EPT
