EPTSoulkey is going to fucking get smashed when he cant hydra bust protosses anymore next round, one trick pony
[ASL3] Soulkey vs BeSt - Page 11
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1715 Posts
Soulkey is going to fucking get smashed when he cant hydra bust protosses anymore next round, one trick pony | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10524 Posts
[QUOTE]On May 22 2017 05:53 FlaShFTW wrote: [QUOTE]On May 22 2017 05:45 Moopower wrote: [QUOTE]On May 22 2017 05:39 FlaShFTW wrote: [QUOTE]On May 22 2017 05:23 Moopower wrote: Why is pvz such a hard match up? I personally think zerg has it easy when it comes to defending while protoss defense can be cracked a lot easier when you get to defiler. Even with reavers, costs alot for scarabs, can get picked off easily even with shuttle by hydras. Most pvz battles protoss hardly micros shuttle reaver, bc they have to multi-task, macro etc while zerg doesnt have to baby sit their units as much. Pvt i think is the most balanced, pretty even historically and you can tell who played better clearly. Zvt is favoring terran so that makes terran the best race on all match ups. I hate seeing protoss lose against hydra bust bc, when the match up is decided based on losing your scouting probe and the zerg stays on top of your other probes trying to scout, how do you stay competitive without getting lucky? If you blindly build cannons and zerg fakes you, youre behind, you try to go standard and get your first corsair, you lose. [/QUOTE] Joins may 2017 with 8 posts and already making a balance whine comment? ????? please watch some more games before making a ridiculous comment like what i have highlighted in bold. zerg absolutely needs to baby their units otherwise their army will melt to storms. zerg is the highest apm race for a reason because of how micro intensive they need to be in all their fights in zvp to storm dodge, zvt to swarm properly and burrow lurkers properly and muta micro. you hate to see protoss lose to hydra bust? good, so do we. then hope that the protoss sends out a 2nd scouting probe and is able to see it because thats why protoss loses to hydra bust by not sending out 2nd probe to scout. [/QUOTE] I have been in the scene for a lot longer than you realize, i forgot my old account. What i mean by baby sitting rather than pointing out apm is it is easier to dodge storms than ut is to critically analyze the best position for reavers and target fire and your fragile units than it us more autonomous to see the storm placement and dodge. As for sending a 2nd probe out, of course protoss players should try to do this, but good zerg players will hunt the extra probe scouts and should be able to kill them due to their speed upgrade. You have to try to be inventive to make your probe be hidden, and a probe that is anywhere near their base should get sniped by a competent zerg player. It is basically up to the zerg to make a mistake and let a probe see the same way best made a mistake by letting lings come in the ramp. [/QUOTE] You do not nearly need to position the reaver as well as you make it out to be. watch rain vs effort on circuit breakers in asl2. soulkey never once checked the 12 position in game 1. or in general that top area. sending out a 2nd probe as your 1st one is about to die and tuck it near the zerg base somewhere inconspicuous allows you to gather all the information you'll need until corsairs can come up. [/QUOTE I can say the same about zerg dodging storms, position is key id say takes more focus than it takes to dodge storms, because you have to actually think where to place, even if it is a split second longer you have to predict and whether the hydra will focus the shuttle or the reaver amd how quick they can switch their targetting. storms dodging, you simply react and move out of the way, then let the ai do its job and let them atk, protoss is alot more manual in atking when it comes to certain key battles at a high level. however slight it may be still takes more focus. You can point out a specific game, and in that specific game you pointed out was his reavers in or out of position and did he have sufficient hydras to punish the reaver. You have to compare apples to apples, not just cite an example to where reavers made a good impact. or you can view the average pvz game where reavers take out just as much as they were worth. Protoss in order to win has to take much more units than they are worth because they cost more and take more time to reinforce and are slower moving across the map. Also your probe argument isnt great bc by the time the 1 st probe dies and best tries to send a 2nd probe out a competent zerg should scout to see the 2nd probe with the ol hovering over the natural and then it just comes down to hunting it down, which again is easy to find with the speed of the lings. [/QUOTE] buddy, the OL is positioned to the top of the forge FE set up. you sneak the probe out through the bottom area between the forge and the pylon where the OL can't see. you can even just use a zealot to sac it for scouting information as well if that's what you want. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
[QUOTE]On May 22 2017 05:57 Moopower wrote: [QUOTE]On May 22 2017 05:53 FlaShFTW wrote: [QUOTE]On May 22 2017 05:45 Moopower wrote: [QUOTE]On May 22 2017 05:39 FlaShFTW wrote: [QUOTE]On May 22 2017 05:23 Moopower wrote: Why is pvz such a hard match up? I personally think zerg has it easy when it comes to defending while protoss defense can be cracked a lot easier when you get to defiler. Even with reavers, costs alot for scarabs, can get picked off easily even with shuttle by hydras. Most pvz battles protoss hardly micros shuttle reaver, bc they have to multi-task, macro etc while zerg doesnt have to baby sit their units as much. Pvt i think is the most balanced, pretty even historically and you can tell who played better clearly. Zvt is favoring terran so that makes terran the best race on all match ups. I hate seeing protoss lose against hydra bust bc, when the match up is decided based on losing your scouting probe and the zerg stays on top of your other probes trying to scout, how do you stay competitive without getting lucky? If you blindly build cannons and zerg fakes you, youre behind, you try to go standard and get your first corsair, you lose. [/QUOTE] Joins may 2017 with 8 posts and already making a balance whine comment? ????? please watch some more games before making a ridiculous comment like what i have highlighted in bold. zerg absolutely needs to baby their units otherwise their army will melt to storms. zerg is the highest apm race for a reason because of how micro intensive they need to be in all their fights in zvp to storm dodge, zvt to swarm properly and burrow lurkers properly and muta micro. you hate to see protoss lose to hydra bust? good, so do we. then hope that the protoss sends out a 2nd scouting probe and is able to see it because thats why protoss loses to hydra bust by not sending out 2nd probe to scout. [/QUOTE] I have been in the scene for a lot longer than you realize, i forgot my old account. What i mean by baby sitting rather than pointing out apm is it is easier to dodge storms than ut is to critically analyze the best position for reavers and target fire and your fragile units than it us more autonomous to see the storm placement and dodge. As for sending a 2nd probe out, of course protoss players should try to do this, but good zerg players will hunt the extra probe scouts and should be able to kill them due to their speed upgrade. You have to try to be inventive to make your probe be hidden, and a probe that is anywhere near their base should get sniped by a competent zerg player. It is basically up to the zerg to make a mistake and let a probe see the same way best made a mistake by letting lings come in the ramp. [/QUOTE] You do not nearly need to position the reaver as well as you make it out to be. watch rain vs effort on circuit breakers in asl2. soulkey never once checked the 12 position in game 1. or in general that top area. sending out a 2nd probe as your 1st one is about to die and tuck it near the zerg base somewhere inconspicuous allows you to gather all the information you'll need until corsairs can come up. [/QUOTE I can say the same about zerg dodging storms, position is key id say takes more focus than it takes to dodge storms, because you have to actually think where to place, even if it is a split second longer you have to predict and whether the hydra will focus the shuttle or the reaver amd how quick they can switch their targetting. storms dodging, you simply react and move out of the way, then let the ai do its job and let them atk, protoss is alot more manual in atking when it comes to certain key battles at a high level. however slight it may be still takes more focus. You can point out a specific game, and in that specific game you pointed out was his reavers in or out of position and did he have sufficient hydras to punish the reaver. You have to compare apples to apples, not just cite an example to where reavers made a good impact. or you can view the average pvz game where reavers take out just as much as they were worth. Protoss in order to win has to take much more units than they are worth because they cost more and take more time to reinforce and are slower moving across the map. Also your probe argument isnt great bc by the time the 1 st probe dies and best tries to send a 2nd probe out a competent zerg should scout to see the 2nd probe with the ol hovering over the natural and then it just comes down to hunting it down, which again is easy to find with the speed of the lings. [/QUOTE] buddy, the OL is positioned to the top of the forge FE set up. you sneak the probe out through the bottom area between the forge and the pylon where the OL can't see. you can even just use a zealot to sac it for scouting information as well if that's what you want. [/QUOTE] A zealot is almost as bad as a probe, its not going to make it to the base if they invested in speedlings. The fact that zerg can switch gears quickly to drone up or pump units is why its tricky determining when zerg is going aggro at the beginning stages. Sneaking a probe out is basically saying you to resort to hoping the player is a lesser zerg. We could theorize what players couldve done all day, if you say protoss coupdve sneaked a probe out due to his ol sight not reaching, then zerg who is on top of his game should realize this and track any potential probes coming in, the easiest way to accomplish this is patrolling a wide area close to his base but far enough for lings to snipe probes in time if they find it. With the speedlings, he can invest in that. Well you might counter and say even speedlings cant cover enough area to always catch a probe guaranteed, which Id even argue its still a high percentage if they are worth their salt. If zerg really wanted to abuse protoss, they could make more lings to easily cover more of an area just 6 more for a total of 12 to snipe any probe trying to scout, which only cost zerg 150 minerals and 3 larvae and miss opportunity of drone mining,macro. Now the protoss has to compensate by playing blind by putting up more cannons 150 per cannon and if zerg doesnt commit to a hydra bust and just drones up and takes another expo, bc protoss had to put mass cannons well then they are further behind despite the initial investment of speedlings. Think of it this way, if a protoss goes dt, there are numerous ways to deal with it as a terran or zerg and the player who gets undone by a dt clearly was an inferior player if they allowed dts to make them lose the game. Even when terran and zerg gets caught with their pants down and had no idea it was coming, they often are able to recover and sometimes come back. With a hydra bust, you lose period as a protoss. | ||
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HaFnium
United Kingdom1078 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
- Best played poorly - SK also played poorly - Since Z > P in the MU by a wide margin (and all things being equal), SK won I guess it adds up  | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
On May 22 2017 05:39 FlaShFTW wrote: Joins may 2017 with 8 posts and already making a balance whine comment? ????? please watch some more games before making a ridiculous comment like what i have highlighted in bold. zerg absolutely needs to baby their units otherwise their army will melt to storms. zerg is the highest apm race for a reason because of how micro intensive they need to be in all their fights in zvp to storm dodge, zvt to swarm properly and burrow lurkers properly and muta micro. you hate to see protoss lose to hydra bust? good, so do we. then hope that the protoss sends out a 2nd scouting probe and is able to see it because thats why protoss loses to hydra bust by not sending out 2nd probe to scout. Hydra busts are hard to hold because probe gets killed before being able to scout. It's the reason why we don't see a second probe being sent. | ||
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TT1
Canada10045 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4179 Posts
On May 22 2017 10:55 Morbidius wrote: We can't have a single LR without balance whine nowadays. In before balance whine for Flash vs Last | ||
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reincremate
China2216 Posts
Flash is OP. Last is also OP. Super imba MU imo. | ||
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ggsimida
1156 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
Last vs Soulkey will probably be either 3-2 or 2-3. | ||
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reincremate
China2216 Posts
On May 22 2017 13:42 ggsimida wrote: history and now has prove BeSt a tactical naive player in BoX matchups. If can't foresee and defend against early ling runbys/hydra busts won't expect him to do well against Flash anyway ^ ^ Yup. Flash would destroy Best, but it would have made for an entertaining series. Entertaining like the 2010-2011 PL finals where SKT sent Best (instead of Bisu) for the ace match and Flash came out on top in a long macro game. Good times. Also rediscovered this match: https://gaming.youtube.com/watch?v=WXScECis7OE | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On May 21 2017 20:49 Terrorbladder wrote: but you're on 2 bases and having to build units because zerg kept you in the dark whole game Corsairs. Before that a probe. If you fuck up and lose your probe, or can't get in you either pressure with zealots to see whats making or if that's too risky (ling speed + decent ling count) and zerg is being especially obnoxious about denying the scout you have to assume the worst and start an extra cannon or two at the right time. On May 21 2017 21:07 xccam wrote: Muta switches do not instantly win the game against protoss (even without corsairs) and Soulkey was not far enough ahead that there was nothing they could do. The reason BeSt lost that fight like he did was because he forgot Dragoon range. If you honestly think there was nothing BeSt could actively done to prevent that loss perhaps people SHOULD be complaining about zerg vs protoss. They can in certain situations. This was pretty close to one of them with best going for a third base at a time when SK was powering hydra. There is no doubt goon range would have helped dramatically in the fight, but I sincerely doubt it would have prevented much in the way of templar snipes. At the first round of snipes best had a whopping three goons. Range or no range SKs muta's weren't taking much damage. In the second fight, most of Best's templar weren't in a good spot and easily snipeable. As for Best preventing that loss, his biggest mistake was not having the corsairs. Not only did he not continue to produce corsairs, he freely donated two corsairs to SKs hydra in the middle of the map. Having those would have been a game changer for HT sniping. On May 22 2017 06:32 ShowTheLights wrote: Hydra busts are SO fucking stupid, I can't believe a matchup depends on keeping ONE probe alive to see what the zerg is doing Soulkey is going to fucking get smashed when he cant hydra bust protosses anymore next round, one trick pony Yea, definitely a one trick pony. That's totally how you win against people like Flash in 40 minute macro games. Also, it doesn't depend on keeping on probe alive, there is much more you can do. There is really no excuse for dying to a hydra bust. On May 22 2017 12:27 TT1 wrote: Best vs Flash/Last semis ruined by zerg cheese, sucks. Cheese? He did 3 hatch dra the first game. The others were all macro games. Best lost because he isn't that great of a PvZer and played subpar even for his PvZ standards in this series. Soulkey versus either of those two is a much better series anyway. TvZ is a more interesting generally, and aside from perhaps Larva (stream version) Soulkey is hands down the best zerg against late game mech. | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On May 22 2017 11:53 aTnClouD wrote: Hydra busts are hard to hold because probe gets killed before being able to scout. It's the reason why we don't see a second probe being sent. Normal zergs don't get ling speed insanely fast, and it's usually possible to keep the probe alive for a very long time. The situation where the probe dies is usually: 1) Zerg is focusing like hell on trying to kill it and made 6 lings to help do so 2) Zerg got ling speed really fast, such that the probe dies a long time before corsair will be out In that situation if you really can't sneak one out, then you can pressure with zealots a little bit to draw the lings away and use that to sneak the probe out. If zerg has enough lings that you're afraid to poke out with 2-3 zlots, and he has been super aggressively denying scout....what does that mean 95% of the time? Yep, hydra bust. So, under those already rare(ish) circumstances, build 2-3 extra pre-emptive cannons around that timing. Yes, if by chance zerg isn't going for a bust it's a setback for P. Nevertheless, I'd arguing winning, or at least not dying, in 95% of "suspicious situations" and being behind 5% of them is a better choice by far than dying 19/20 games just on the off chance it's the 1/20 chance zerg is playing standard. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12043 Posts
On May 22 2017 10:55 Morbidius wrote: We can't have a single LR without balance whine nowadays. It's like 2010 all over again! Seriously though, with BW becoming bigger again it was inevitable. I personally think the games yesterday had nothing to do with game or map balance. BeSt just didn't do the BeSt he could. | ||
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reincremate
China2216 Posts
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Moopower
128 Posts
On May 22 2017 14:15 L_Master wrote: Normal zergs don't get ling speed insanely fast, and it's usually possible to keep the probe alive for a very long time. The situation where the probe dies is usually: 1) Zerg is focusing like hell on trying to kill it and made 6 lings to help do so 2) Zerg got ling speed really fast, such that the probe dies a long time before corsair will be out In that situation if you really can't sneak one out, then you can pressure with zealots a little bit to draw the lings away and use that to sneak the probe out. If zerg has enough lings that you're afraid to poke out with 2-3 zlots, and he has been super aggressively denying scout....what does that mean 95% of the time? Yep, hydra bust. So, under those already rare(ish) circumstances, build 2-3 extra pre-emptive cannons around that timing. Yes, if by chance zerg isn't going for a bust it's a setback for P. Nevertheless, I'd arguing winning, or at least not dying, in 95% of "suspicious situations" and being behind 5% of them is a better choice by far than dying 19/20 games just on the off chance it's the 1/20 chance zerg is playing standard. So your solution is to hope zerg doesn't mind fuck protoss with a speed ling investment to get the protoss to be defensive and assume hydra bust in those situations? Your argument is based on the fact of what ppl normally do when they get speedling, they do try to go all-in or cheese strategies hence why they make such effort to deny any scouting, but a smart zerg player could take adv of this, and force protoss to be defensive and just macro after his initial investment. It doesn't take a lot of lings to deny probe scouting, and then once protoss is left in the dark they have to overcompensate with massive cannons or try to get greedy and lucky, bc they don't have any scouting info other than speedlings. If that were truly the case, zerg should just go speedling all the time and deny protoss scouting, and then fake going hydras and watch protoss have to climb back from being economically behind. What you should be doing is making cases of how progamers could overcome speedlings, with either their own aggression with zealots and then slip a probe by, or just go aggro with zealot and dragon. and then invest in tech later, forcing sunkens or at least a lot of lings at zerg's base and the game normalizes again. | ||
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