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[ASL2] Ro8 BeSt vs hero - Page 19

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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Miragee
Profile Joined December 2009
8470 Posts
January 03 2017 15:45 GMT
#361
@Letmelose: I'll answer later, don't have time right now.

On January 04 2017 00:42 NeonFlare wrote:
Maybe I'm blind but Liquipedia doesn't have dates for remaining matches?


Sunday 8th and Tuesday 10th.
NeonFlare
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Finland1307 Posts
January 03 2017 15:50 GMT
#362
On January 04 2017 00:45 Miragee wrote:
@Letmelose: I'll answer later, don't have time right now.

Show nested quote +
On January 04 2017 00:42 NeonFlare wrote:
Maybe I'm blind but Liquipedia doesn't have dates for remaining matches?


Sunday 8th and Tuesday 10th.


Alright, thanks.
Cele
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Germany4016 Posts
January 03 2017 16:11 GMT
#363
On January 04 2017 00:29 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2017 23:36 Miragee wrote:
On January 03 2017 20:13 GTR wrote:
On January 03 2017 20:12 sharkie wrote:
On January 03 2017 20:10 Miragee wrote:
Hm, BD just spoke about the most memorial 3-0 comback after being down 0-2. He said Effort vs Flash. For me it's probably Jaedong vs Fantasy. The games were much better and much more exciting for me.


Yeah but in JD vs fantasy people never stopped believing in JD.
No one in their right mind ever expected Effort to win three times in a row vs Flash, no matter what.


for me it was gorush vs nada from the iops osl semi-finals
how nada won the 3rd set on dream of balhae, i'll never figure out.
when i was talking to gorush at artosis' christmas party in 2015 i kept ribbing him about it and all he could say was 'nada is just god'


Just watched the first 3 games and I must say the level of play is just laughable compared to modern age (not talking about strategies here). No offense intended, the games were probably insane for that day and age. It's also hard to figure out how GoRush lost set 3. Nada was basicall on 1 base for 30 minutes of the game. Everytime he got a second one he lost the other. If anything GoRush lost because of 2 things. First, he didn't defend his bases at all. Losing a base to 4 marines without reacting, losing 7 drones and half of a hatches life to ONE marine and a medic... He didn't react at all to all those attacks. Secondly, hydras suck ass against marines. They may have killed a billion CCs but in fights they were so damn ineffecient. In one of the earlier fights for example he lost more than 20 hydras vs a control group of marines+ a few medics when he had like 4 control groups of hydras. That's how bad hydras are against marines. If you waste so many minerals then yeah, you can be 5 bases ahead and still lose the game.


+ Show Spoiler +


You can't judge these games with a modern context. Watch the above clip. With a modern context in mind, you'll probably blame the zerg for not doing the appropriate building placements to stop the vulture run-by, and realize that the game is mostly over once two vultures went inside the base.

However, it wasn't the case when you watched it live. This is was when the vulture micro-management we take for granted today wasn't even in the minds of the viewers as being possible. If you can understand Korean, you'll notice how instead of realizing that the zerg player is in deep shit, the commentator (one of the greatest around) proceeds to tell us how merely two vultures won't be able to do that much damage versus that many zerglings (because he wasn't aware of the level of micro-management that was possible), then is audibly surprised by the level of NaDa displays here (the level of which you probably won't even blink an eye after watching).

This is the commentary of an ex-professional who was actively playing the terran race at the top level (his last appearance in the top 16 was in 2002) only a few years before. Imagine how mind blowing it was for me (a casual viewer) when I first watched it. I didn't even comprehend why NaDa made vultures in the first place, and was blown away by what he could do with it, as was his opponent GoRush, by how hard he got whooped by it. All past games suck ass if you just try to view it from a modern perspective without knowing how many years of advancements it took for the game to reach the current level. I literally thought that the plays I was witnessing being executed at the hands of NaDa would never be surpassed by any player ever, that's how clean his play seemed to be at the time.

Otherwise every iconic moment in history becomes a piece of shit. Oh that BoxeR micro-management was so shit, what the hell was the zerg thinking. What's so amazing about iloveoov taking the natural off two barracks? It's called a natural for god's sake, it's the obvious thing to do. Bisu build? What is that newb sAviOr doing building mutalisks against corsair dark templar combination? Is he retarded?


yeah i think letmeloose is right about this. You gotta see the notable achievements and outstanding plays in broodwar in the context of their time, game development and metagame. Ofc they are not necessarily impressive any more to modern eyes, because modern gameplay incorporates all those great innovations in strategy, micro and macro that were truly marvellous at their time.
Broodwar for life!
Ziggy
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
South Korea2105 Posts
January 03 2017 16:19 GMT
#364
On January 04 2017 01:11 Cele wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2017 00:29 Letmelose wrote:
On January 03 2017 23:36 Miragee wrote:
On January 03 2017 20:13 GTR wrote:
On January 03 2017 20:12 sharkie wrote:
On January 03 2017 20:10 Miragee wrote:
Hm, BD just spoke about the most memorial 3-0 comback after being down 0-2. He said Effort vs Flash. For me it's probably Jaedong vs Fantasy. The games were much better and much more exciting for me.


Yeah but in JD vs fantasy people never stopped believing in JD.
No one in their right mind ever expected Effort to win three times in a row vs Flash, no matter what.


for me it was gorush vs nada from the iops osl semi-finals
how nada won the 3rd set on dream of balhae, i'll never figure out.
when i was talking to gorush at artosis' christmas party in 2015 i kept ribbing him about it and all he could say was 'nada is just god'


Just watched the first 3 games and I must say the level of play is just laughable compared to modern age (not talking about strategies here). No offense intended, the games were probably insane for that day and age. It's also hard to figure out how GoRush lost set 3. Nada was basicall on 1 base for 30 minutes of the game. Everytime he got a second one he lost the other. If anything GoRush lost because of 2 things. First, he didn't defend his bases at all. Losing a base to 4 marines without reacting, losing 7 drones and half of a hatches life to ONE marine and a medic... He didn't react at all to all those attacks. Secondly, hydras suck ass against marines. They may have killed a billion CCs but in fights they were so damn ineffecient. In one of the earlier fights for example he lost more than 20 hydras vs a control group of marines+ a few medics when he had like 4 control groups of hydras. That's how bad hydras are against marines. If you waste so many minerals then yeah, you can be 5 bases ahead and still lose the game.


+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAAvTqpffnA&t=11s


You can't judge these games with a modern context. Watch the above clip. With a modern context in mind, you'll probably blame the zerg for not doing the appropriate building placements to stop the vulture run-by, and realize that the game is mostly over once two vultures went inside the base.

However, it wasn't the case when you watched it live. This is was when the vulture micro-management we take for granted today wasn't even in the minds of the viewers as being possible. If you can understand Korean, you'll notice how instead of realizing that the zerg player is in deep shit, the commentator (one of the greatest around) proceeds to tell us how merely two vultures won't be able to do that much damage versus that many zerglings (because he wasn't aware of the level of micro-management that was possible), then is audibly surprised by the level of NaDa displays here (the level of which you probably won't even blink an eye after watching).

This is the commentary of an ex-professional who was actively playing the terran race at the top level (his last appearance in the top 16 was in 2002) only a few years before. Imagine how mind blowing it was for me (a casual viewer) when I first watched it. I didn't even comprehend why NaDa made vultures in the first place, and was blown away by what he could do with it, as was his opponent GoRush, by how hard he got whooped by it. All past games suck ass if you just try to view it from a modern perspective without knowing how many years of advancements it took for the game to reach the current level. I literally thought that the plays I was witnessing being executed at the hands of NaDa would never be surpassed by any player ever, that's how clean his play seemed to be at the time.

Otherwise every iconic moment in history becomes a piece of shit. Oh that BoxeR micro-management was so shit, what the hell was the zerg thinking. What's so amazing about iloveoov taking the natural off two barracks? It's called a natural for god's sake, it's the obvious thing to do. Bisu build? What is that newb sAviOr doing building mutalisks against corsair dark templar combination? Is he retarded?


yeah i think letmeloose is right about this. You gotta see the notable achievements and outstanding plays in broodwar in the context of their time, game development and metagame. Ofc they are not necessarily impressive any more to modern eyes, because modern gameplay incorporates all those great innovations in strategy, micro and macro that were truly marvellous at their time.


All it takes is to realise professional gaming is mostly about the relative skill of pros in comparison to the rest of the scene, rather than trying to compare completely different time frames
WriterDefeating a sandwich only makes it tastier. @imjustziggy
ghrur
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3786 Posts
January 03 2017 17:00 GMT
#365
Hero's "hydra bust" seemed so awfully executed and thought out for that last game. He made drones even after his hydra den finished, delaying + weakening his bust timing if he were going for that, and he made lings instead of hydras even after the den finished. He also made like, what, 6-10 hydras for the bust? It just seemed so semi-committed. If he had chosen to either full-on hydra bust while denying scouting with 8 lings or chosen to fake bust with 4 hydras and denying scouting, I think he would've done much better that game. Choosing the in between option and still trying to bust 6 cannons just lost hero both his army and any semblance of a threat without an economy to back him up.
darkness overpowering
ortseam
Profile Joined April 2015
996 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-03 18:29:45
January 03 2017 18:28 GMT
#366
Well it didn't help that Best was going fast 4 gate speedlot with (only)2 sairs so he was able to counter push immediately.
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
January 03 2017 19:15 GMT
#367
damn i missed it again. ok no spoilers.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
Vivi57
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States6599 Posts
January 03 2017 19:29 GMT
#368
Best definitely earned those wins. He used nonstandard build orders in the first two games and hero didn't react well at all. Very nice to see nonstandard build orders in these games.
Flash hwaiting! Nal_rA forever!
Miragee
Profile Joined December 2009
8470 Posts
January 03 2017 19:31 GMT
#369
On January 04 2017 00:29 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2017 23:36 Miragee wrote:
On January 03 2017 20:13 GTR wrote:
On January 03 2017 20:12 sharkie wrote:
On January 03 2017 20:10 Miragee wrote:
Hm, BD just spoke about the most memorial 3-0 comback after being down 0-2. He said Effort vs Flash. For me it's probably Jaedong vs Fantasy. The games were much better and much more exciting for me.


Yeah but in JD vs fantasy people never stopped believing in JD.
No one in their right mind ever expected Effort to win three times in a row vs Flash, no matter what.


for me it was gorush vs nada from the iops osl semi-finals
how nada won the 3rd set on dream of balhae, i'll never figure out.
when i was talking to gorush at artosis' christmas party in 2015 i kept ribbing him about it and all he could say was 'nada is just god'


Just watched the first 3 games and I must say the level of play is just laughable compared to modern age (not talking about strategies here). No offense intended, the games were probably insane for that day and age. It's also hard to figure out how GoRush lost set 3. Nada was basicall on 1 base for 30 minutes of the game. Everytime he got a second one he lost the other. If anything GoRush lost because of 2 things. First, he didn't defend his bases at all. Losing a base to 4 marines without reacting, losing 7 drones and half of a hatches life to ONE marine and a medic... He didn't react at all to all those attacks. Secondly, hydras suck ass against marines. They may have killed a billion CCs but in fights they were so damn ineffecient. In one of the earlier fights for example he lost more than 20 hydras vs a control group of marines+ a few medics when he had like 4 control groups of hydras. That's how bad hydras are against marines. If you waste so many minerals then yeah, you can be 5 bases ahead and still lose the game.


+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAAvTqpffnA&t=11s


You can't judge these games with a modern context. Watch the above clip. With a modern context in mind, you'll probably blame the zerg for not doing the appropriate building placements to stop the vulture run-by, and realize that the game is mostly over once two vultures went inside the base.

However, it wasn't the case when you watched it live. This is was when the vulture micro-management we take for granted today wasn't even in the minds of the viewers as being possible. If you can understand Korean, you'll notice how instead of realizing that the zerg player is in deep shit, the commentator (one of the greatest around) proceeds to tell us how merely two vultures won't be able to do that much damage versus that many zerglings (because he wasn't aware of the level of micro-management that was possible), then is audibly surprised by the level of NaDa displays here (the level of which you probably won't even blink an eye after watching).

This is the commentary of an ex-professional who was actively playing the terran race at the top level (his last appearance in the top 16 was in 2002) only a few years before. Imagine how mind blowing it was for me (a casual viewer) when I first watched it. I didn't even comprehend why NaDa made vultures in the first place, and was blown away by what he could do with it, as was his opponent GoRush, by how hard he got whooped by it. All past games suck ass if you just try to view it from a modern perspective without knowing how many years of advancements it took for the game to reach the current level. I literally thought that the plays I was witnessing being executed at the hands of NaDa would never be surpassed by any player ever, that's how clean his play seemed to be at the time.

Otherwise every iconic moment in history becomes a piece of shit. Oh that BoxeR micro-management was so shit, what the hell was the zerg thinking. What's so amazing about iloveoov taking the natural off two barracks? It's called a natural for god's sake, it's the obvious thing to do. Bisu build? What is that newb sAviOr doing building mutalisks against corsair dark templar combination? Is he retarded?


I think you didn't quite get what I was saying. I specifically added "not talking about strategies here". Of course I won't judge GoRush for playing mass hydra against marines, even though today we know how much that sucks. Or for basically playing without swarm for 20-25 minutes into each game. That's not what I was talking about. I was talking about basics such as reaction-time when a push or harass happens, hence the examples. It's just ridiculous to see a single marine kill 7 drones and half a hatch. Even when I was a total noob and didn't even have an idea that a pro scene existed I had faster reaction times, lol.

I thought Nada's early game micro was pretty damn good btw. GoRush's ling control on the other hand sucked balls. Which is weird because his drone micro against the bunker rush (in game 3 I think) was actually pretty decent. Again, I'm not talking about all the silly runbys. That's a totally different story and I know that it was a common thing to do back then.
Lucumo
Profile Joined January 2010
6850 Posts
January 03 2017 19:41 GMT
#370
On January 03 2017 21:39 Letmelose wrote:
Afreeca, Korea's answer to Twitch, is quite a successful platform for ex-professional players who played Brood War.

Why "answer" when Afreeca was before Justin/Twitch.tv?

Anyway, I'm happy that my favorite Protoss player won this. Didn't expect it, at all.
GoTuNk!
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Chile4591 Posts
January 03 2017 19:49 GMT
#371
Really enjoyed this, BeSt's agressiveness and builds were awesome.
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
January 03 2017 19:58 GMT
#372
WOoooooot
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
B-royal
Profile Joined May 2015
Belgium1330 Posts
January 03 2017 20:00 GMT
#373
Well this was the worst casting ever by tasteless and artosis for game 1. I couldn't bear listening to them any more after that. Korean stream for me from now on!

I can elaborate if anyone's interested but it's pretty much for the same reasons other people have been mentioning.
new BW-player (~E rank fish) twitch.tv/crispydrone || What plays 500 games a season but can't get better? => http://imgur.com/a/pLzf9 <= ||
Miragee
Profile Joined December 2009
8470 Posts
January 03 2017 20:04 GMT
#374
On January 04 2017 05:00 B-royal wrote:
Well this was the worst casting ever by tasteless and artosis for game 1. I couldn't bear listening to them any more after that. Korean stream for me from now on!

I can elaborate if anyone's interested but it's pretty much for the same reasons other people have been mentioning.


You are welcome to enjoy BisuDagger and FlashFTW over on the other english stream. It's not listed in the sidebar because of technical issues but it's always listed in the OP. Today's cast was pretty enjoyable imho.
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
January 03 2017 20:09 GMT
#375
On January 04 2017 05:04 Miragee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2017 05:00 B-royal wrote:
Well this was the worst casting ever by tasteless and artosis for game 1. I couldn't bear listening to them any more after that. Korean stream for me from now on!

I can elaborate if anyone's interested but it's pretty much for the same reasons other people have been mentioning.


You are welcome to enjoy BisuDagger and FlashFTW over on the other english stream. It's not listed in the sidebar because of technical issues but it's always listed in the OP. Today's cast was pretty enjoyable imho.


+1. The BisuDagger/FlashFTW cast was pretty good.

User was warned for being hilarious
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-03 21:08:31
January 03 2017 20:45 GMT
#376
+ Show Spoiler +
BeSt beasted it!!!


Edit: yes I listened to the BisuDagger and the FlashFTW
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
SCC-Faust
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3736 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-03 21:41:47
January 03 2017 20:53 GMT
#377
+ Show Spoiler +
Very very upset by these results. Taking a long hard look at my race.
I want to fuck Soulkey with a Zelderan.
SCC-Faust
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3736 Posts
January 03 2017 21:34 GMT
#378
On January 04 2017 05:00 B-royal wrote:
Well this was the worst casting ever by tasteless and artosis for game 1. I couldn't bear listening to them any more after that. Korean stream for me from now on!

I can elaborate if anyone's interested but it's pretty much for the same reasons other people have been mentioning.


I'm interested. I set my alarm to watch these matches but missed them, so I haven't seen the casting.
I want to fuck Soulkey with a Zelderan.
ThreeActPlay
Profile Joined April 2011
United States249 Posts
January 03 2017 22:00 GMT
#379
I only watched Tasteless and Artosis when BisuDagger was busy for Christmas. Still not a huge fan of Artosis's casting, thought Tasteless was surprisingly good for Sea's Ro16 group.
twitter.com/haethos
RouaF
Profile Joined October 2010
France4120 Posts
January 03 2017 23:02 GMT
#380
I like Tastosis, matter of preference I guess

+ Show Spoiler +
I'm starting to think Best could win the whole thing. His PvT is beastly, he can analyse sea's game from the quarter and then maybe upset flash in the finals. Impressive play by him overall IMO !
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