EPT
Afreeca Starleague Season 2
Afreeca Starleague Season 2![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZpDsafx.png)
Casters & Hosts
Streams
Afreeca TV (BisuDagger and FlashFTW)
twitch TV (Tasteless/Rapid and Artosis)
ASL Youtube Channel with both English and Korean Stream
[ASL2] Ro8 BeSt vs hero
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Afreeca TV (BisuDagger and FlashFTW) twitch TV (Tasteless/Rapid and Artosis) ASL Youtube Channel with both English and Korean Stream | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
We need Best in the finals... | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On January 03 2017 16:13 phosphorylation wrote: Please best win!!!! We need Best in the finals... That's what I want to happen if the rest of TBLS don't make it. I feel like BeSt is deserving of a title win since Ever 08 (even if I don't have a proper case for it). | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On January 03 2017 16:51 Grettin wrote: Pls no 3-0 sweep im ok with a 3-0 at least makes the games high quality. bisu's games were not high quality. | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
Please play well hero, let's have some good games. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Either way, shouldn't be the walkover last night was. | ||
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Archaeo
United States397 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2r-JcDocChA/hqdefault.jpg) | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
Circuit Breakers eye of the storm benzene demian Circuit Breakers | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
if anything bisu was thought to be as favoured vs flash as hero is vs best Hoping for good games =) | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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neutralrobot
Australia1025 Posts
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amorpheus
Bulgaria2144 Posts
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FranzF1
Chile1710 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:18 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: lol 2 gates vs 9p speed are we in 2001? | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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sharkie
Austria18338 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
artosis and tasteless think hero is ahead i disagree.. best like 70/30 to win game 1 now !! | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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SKN1995
Japan204 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Archaeo
United States397 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
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LittLeLives
United States692 Posts
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amorpheus
Bulgaria2144 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:25 sharkie wrote: Good to see Best is still horrible in PvZ good to see u are still horrible at judging game states (no offense, just kidding :p) | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33195 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
There's just a weird upset energy going now, plus Best's in good form. I think it's gonna be a long series, 3-2 either way. Hero needs to cut down Best before late game. Too much macro from Bestie, good mass-storm too. | ||
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
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sharkie
Austria18338 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:34 MaGic~PhiL wrote: good to see u are still horrible at judging game states (no offense, just kidding :p) Yeah I forgot that hero is a robotic player. Not known for his thinking prowess | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1208 Posts
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
also fantastic multitask and micro | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:01 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: btw some interesting inside about hero:is very comfortableplaying equal bases vs protoss :D ,must be the only zerg that can do it actually. You think he lost because he dont stick to 1 vs 1 base vs protoss? (just kidding) | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Sajiki
Germany522 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:31 c3rberUs wrote: Hero with a TON of hydras. On January 03 2017 19:31 c3rberUs wrote: That died to storms rofmao. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:36 Xeln4g4 wrote: Bisudagger and other commentator not understanding much of first game...."hero is ahead" while game was even if not already in Best favour... when did we say that? I said best was ahead when he got his third and that was the turning point of the game. | ||
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CrayonPopChoa
Canada761 Posts
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Archaeo
United States397 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1208 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:36 BigFan wrote: lol. hero's attack on Best's third went terribly wrong. He also looked confused. Agree! He looked confused after attack went wrong | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:37 Archaeo wrote: Sucked that two gate pretty much countered the effectiveness of his overpool speed. He wasn't counting on Best two-gating. If it was overpool Hero would have been ahead but it was 9 pool gas. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33195 Posts
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:36 phosphorylation wrote: old skool build order -> best BEAST macro -> EZ win also fantastic multitask and micro Yeah somehow oldschool stuff looking to work really well these days and im happy about it cuz imo its more solid playstyle and greater battles. On January 03 2017 19:39 Xeln4g4 wrote: Agree! He looked confused after attack went wrong He was desperate to do damage because he suffered too much from the zealot harass regardless of the protoss being well prepared to defend. | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1208 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:37 FlaShFTW wrote: when did we say that? I said best was ahead when he got his third and that was the turning point of the game. Before Z attack on 3rd base...anyway i like ur comment overall....i woulnd't be following ur stream otherwise | ||
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Archaeo
United States397 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:39 classicyellow83 wrote: If it was overpool Hero would have been ahead but it was 9 pool gas. Was it? That's even worse. He would have still been behind with overpool speed though. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
hero had to do great things from the start after the build order choices.. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
1) heRO notices BeSt likes gateway into expansion -> wants to kill it with 9 pool speedlings. 2) BeSt does 1 base play which nullifies the threat of 9 pool speedlings, and has the advantage 3) herO makes 2 hydralisks to stop the corsairs. If he were going lurkers, he would have made more. BeSt should have predicted mutalisks in advance. 4) BeSt should have noticed the hydralisk count, so shouldn't have gone for robotics bay. Going for the natural was the right choice. 5) BeSt goes for speed zealots, which is okay against 2 base 3 hatchery play, but not against fast tech 2 hatchery play. 6) BeSt goes for the rush anyways, but herO doesn't see the speed zealots coming and loses tons of drones, which shouldn't happen considering he went for 2 hatchery play which is already low on drone count. 7) BeSt secures his natural and wins the game. It seems neither play had a clear idea what was going on, and BeSt came out on top of this clown fiesta (which may be what he was aiming for, rather than a pre-planned build that had every variable in mind). | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:41 Archaeo wrote: Was it? That's even worse. He would have still been behind with overpool speed though. No one does overpool speed these days. It's 12 hatch then pool. over pool expand or 9pool speedlings (even this is used very rarely) | ||
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DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Filco
France154 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:23 coolprogrammingstuff wrote: Any Peruvians on TL want to give us their analysis on this map? hehehehe best one of the day. I actualy believe we have to study best odd build because it puts the zerg in such an odd spot. It's a risky build, but it worked out pretty well. He placed hero in a low eco game situation, then he relied on his amazing macro skills to win the game. After the first push on one base, hero add to spend larvas on drones again. so hero spent money on pretty useless muta tech, then had to rebuild economy. Meanwhile, best takes second base and becomes totaly equal or even ahead on the eco, and it's just a matter of time before he starts producing a massive army. With this tech, the protoss is always kind of equal on the eco, and still gets very quick tech while being the thread in the early game. We have to study this more in details, because i think that best put a lot of thoughts into this build. I have not heard any relevant analysis so far on any of the streams. | ||
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Miragee
8471 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:45 Letmelose wrote: ZeuS's analysis. 1) heRO notices BeSt likes gateway into expansion -> wants to kill it with 9 pool speedlings. 2) BeSt does 1 base play which nullifies the threat of 9 pool speedlings, and has the advantage 3) herO makes 2 hydralisks to stop the corsairs. If he were going lurkers, he would have made more. BeSt should have predicted mutalisks in advance. 4) BeSt should have noticed the hydralisk count, so shouldn't have gone for robotics bay. Going for the natural was the right choice. 5) BeSt goes for speed zealots, which is okay against 2 base 3 hatchery play, but not against fast tech 2 hatchery play. 6) BeSt goes for the rush anyways, but herO doesn't see the speed zealots coming and loses tons of drones, which shouldn't happen considering he went for 2 hatchery play which is already low on drone count. 7) BeSt secures his natural and wins the game. It seems neither play had a clear idea what was going on, and BeSt came out on top of this clown fiesta (which may be what he was aiming for, rather than a pre-planned build that had every variable in mind). thanks | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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GTR
51398 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:50 classicyellow83 wrote: Wow Best using builds he never uses on stream on both games. dunno,isnt this best favorite build ?i did see more than 10 games him using this build ;; | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
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LittLeLives
United States692 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:51 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: dunno,isnt this best favorite build ?i did see more than 10 games him using this build ;; Not these days. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
oh my god wow | ||
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Miragee
8471 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Miragee
8471 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:55 MaGic~PhiL wrote: that was some of the best defense i have ever seen in a zvp .. or a starcraft game in general.. oh my god wow It was certainly impressive but a far cry away from the best imho. Best was rather careless in the attack because he was so far ahead. Under normal conditions he wouldn't even have engaged into that position. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:57 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: oh man wtf,dont do this to me,how cna u miss that dt drop observer... HEHEHE Shine is the observer. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
i am impressed.. wow | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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alypse
Vietnam2762 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
 Thought he'd do well, but I didn't see a potential sweep. Forget all your predictions, the world is upside down. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33195 Posts
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seopthi
390 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1208 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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LittLeLives
United States692 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:00 Dante08 wrote: If Hero had defended that DT drop he might have had a chance lol No he wouldn't have. He had no drones. | ||
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
great build orders impeccable micro and of course, beastly macro | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:59 Waxangel wrote: Gross, KR casters are pushing the "the return of TBLS has pushed the others to become even stronger!" narrative T_T Is it wrong though? Flash being around for example has made Sea play a hell of a lot better since he's so far ahead of everyone else. It's also pushed the zergs to get better at ZvT and toss at PvT purely to beat Flash. The same thing happened with Bisu. | ||
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Miragee
8471 Posts
LOL That's so good after Letmelose said Shine is bad at lategame management just yesterday. xD | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:57 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: zvp god =) Apparently not today. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33195 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:01 Qikz wrote: Is it wrong though? Flash being around for example has made Sea play a hell of a lot better since he's so far ahead of everyone else. It's also pushed the zergs to get better at ZvT and toss at PvT purely to beat Flash. The same thing happened with Bisu. ahhh I just hate the diminishing of everyone and everything else, just because TBLS have come back and dominated the spotlight -_- | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:01 neobowman wrote: This is some crazy good build prep by best. Completely pulled one over Hero. Plus good execution and decision making. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:00 LittLeLives wrote: So, who's locking in their Liquibet for GuemChi? stop... please no more | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:01 Waxangel wrote: ahhh I just hate the diminishing of everyone and everything else, just because TBLS have come back and dominated the spotlight -_- TBLS without a doubt were the strongest players for a very long time. It was only right at the end of Brood War (professional) that FanTaSy started to overtake Flash and Jangbi got closer to beating Stork. Jaedong was unbeaten at the top imo. Without a doubt they're going to build on this to try and bring the spotlight back to Broodwar. It's the best way they have of promoting it all. TBLS, The heroes of prior are back in Broodwar, everyone come watch! (for example) | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
ASL Season 2 finals. Guemchi beats Sea 3-0 | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:03 Letmelose wrote: Woah, I was listening to the commentary of Jaedong, and Stork, but ZeuS has way better insight than both of them combined. I mean, even these guys, both of whom representing their race since what seems like forever, had little clue about all the intricacies that happened in the first game. Old school players, like ZeuS, who witnessed the entire evolution of the scene for nearly two decades, and watched exactly why certain builds died out, and why current concepts were created have so much better understanding the game. Zeus is the best at analyzing games. Flash even said even though Zeus isn't a good player he has perfect understanding of the current meta. | ||
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neilmellor
China49 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:45 Letmelose wrote: ZeuS's analysis. 1) heRO notices BeSt likes gateway into expansion -> wants to kill it with 9 pool speedlings. 2) BeSt does 1 base play which nullifies the threat of 9 pool speedlings, and has the advantage 3) herO makes 2 hydralisks to stop the corsairs. If he were going lurkers, he would have made more. BeSt should have predicted mutalisks in advance. 4) BeSt should have noticed the hydralisk count, so shouldn't have gone for robotics bay. Going for the natural was the right choice. 5) BeSt goes for speed zealots, which is okay against 2 base 3 hatchery play, but not against fast tech 2 hatchery play. 6) BeSt goes for the rush anyways, but herO doesn't see the speed zealots coming and loses tons of drones, which shouldn't happen considering he went for 2 hatchery play which is already low on drone count. 7) BeSt secures his natural and wins the game. It seems neither play had a clear idea what was going on, and BeSt came out on top of this clown fiesta (which may be what he was aiming for, rather than a pre-planned build that had every variable in mind). Best did cancel the robo in that game though, so seems like he figured out what was going on. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:05 neilmellor wrote: Even jaedong and hero can not beat Best and we all know Bisu is even better vs. Zerg. A new era for P v Z? calm down,god is awake now ^^ | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:03 Letmelose wrote: Woah, I was listening to the commentary of Jaedong, and Stork, but ZeuS has way better insight than both of them combined. I mean, even these guys, both of whom representing their race since what seems like forever, had little clue about all the intricacies that happened in the first game. Old school players, like ZeuS, who witnessed the entire evolution of the scene for nearly two decades, and watched exactly why certain builds died out, and why current concepts were created have so much better understanding the game. Respect to Jun Tae-gyu | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1208 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:00 LittLeLives wrote: So, who's locking in their Liquibet for GuemChi? A bridge too far, even with the Upset Karma goin' on now. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:06 [[Starlight]] wrote: Best did cancel the robo in that game though, so seems like he figured out what was going on. He canceled the robo when he saw the mutas, not when he saw the hydra count | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Poll: Recommend game 2? yes (23) no (4) 27 total votes Your vote: Recommend game 2? Poll: Recommend game 1? yes (25) no (3) 28 total votes Your vote: Recommend game 1? | ||
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Miragee
8471 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:09 c3rberUs wrote: He canceled the robo when he saw the mutas, not when he saw the hydra count Ok, that was late, yes. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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Tanzklaue
Germany1412 Posts
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sharkie
Austria18338 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:10 Miragee wrote: Hm, BD just spoke about the most memorial 3-0 comback after being down 0-2. He said Effort vs Flash. For me it's probably Jaedong vs Fantasy. The games were much better and much more exciting for me. Yeah but in JD vs fantasy people never stopped believing in JD. No one in their right mind ever expected Effort to win three times in a row vs Flash, no matter what. | ||
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GTR
51398 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:12 sharkie wrote: Yeah but in JD vs fantasy people never stopped believing in JD. No one in their right mind ever expected Effort to win three times in a row vs Flash, no matter what. for me it was gorush vs nada from the iops osl semi-finals how nada won the 3rd set on dream of balhae, i'll never figure out. when i was talking to gorush at artosis' christmas party in 2015 i kept ribbing him about it and all he could say was 'nada is just god' | ||
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Miragee
8471 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:12 sharkie wrote: Yeah but in JD vs fantasy people never stopped believing in JD. No one in their right mind ever expected Effort to win three times in a row vs Flash, no matter what. Yeah right. Maybe it's just me because I didn't really care at all about the Flash vs Effort finals either way. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Warfie
Norway2846 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:14 Warfie wrote: man I wake up to 2-0 scores all the time lately, pls give me more games t.t yeah, it especially sucks to see the end of such a series when you could have watched all of it on your own and been surprised by the VODs | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:10 Miragee wrote: Hm, BD just spoke about the most memorial 3-0 comback after being down 0-2. He said Effort vs Flash. For me it's probably Jaedong vs Fantasy. The games were much better and much more exciting for me. NaDa versus GoRush IOPS OGN StarLeague. 6th most viewed series in the history of televised Starcraft. That game on Dream of Balhae. The greatest player to ever touch the mouse and keyboard accomplishes his third ever reverse-sweep (the most in history). | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33195 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:17 Waxangel wrote: is this the legendary Shine observing -_-? Yes. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:16 Yorbon wrote: Stream is really bad for me now, is it good for everyone else? Is it the youtube stream? If so, it's quite bad right now | ||
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anandworld
24 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33195 Posts
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:16 Yorbon wrote: Stream is really bad for me now, is it good for everyone else? Twitch working fine. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:20 classicyellow83 wrote: I figured it out. It's Bisu in Best's body. does the rule book prohibit mind melding? | ||
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Waxangel
United States33195 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:21 Heartland wrote: does the rule book prohibit mind melding? no such rule. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:20 classicyellow83 wrote: I figured it out. It's Bisu in Best's body. Well, they're both Protoss :D | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:21 Waxangel wrote: I really want to see a game where Protoss runs all his army hopelessly into an endless lurker field; maybe I'll finally get my wish ~_~ I can send you some of my sc2 replays np | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
Ok good | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Sajiki
Germany522 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:18 c3rberUs wrote: Is it the youtube stream? If so, it's quite bad right now Yeah, going to twitch fixed it, thanks. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:23 Dante08 wrote: Anyone having problems with the english stream? Switch to Twitch | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33195 Posts
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anandworld
24 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:23 Dante08 wrote: Anyone having problems with the english stream? The Global Afreeca stream is actually really good. Better than Twitch and Youtube for me. | ||
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
Thanks! | ||
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Sajiki
Germany522 Posts
and poor ones are gnnuuughhh | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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sharkie
Austria18338 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:26 Sajiki wrote: well executed hydra attacks are just beautiful and poor ones are gnnuuughhh But even then the amount of hydras a few templars can kill is so ridiculous... | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Nice game, Hero. He also did some eco harass early on that delayed the Best macro machine. Seems like he needs to rough up Best early to do well. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:27 FlaShFTW wrote: muta snipes were critical hope more zergs do this in the future. While Best was killing spire.... Flash: Hero needs to make mutas right now. If he dosen't, he loses. | ||
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Sajiki
Germany522 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1208 Posts
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DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:29 classicyellow83 wrote: While Best was killing spire.... Flash: Hero needs to make mutas right now. If he dosen't, he loses. I don't understand why BeSt didn't rebuild sairs, especially after knowing he was going to snipe spire, he knew limited quantity of muta/scourge were going to be on map. Sloppy loss of sairs by BeSt that game compared to others anyway | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:29 classicyellow83 wrote: While Best was killing spire.... Flash: Hero needs to make mutas right now. If he dosen't, he loses. yeah that snipe actually may have forced hero to win the game haha. it was the proper response though to build those mutas because he wont have spire for a while. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:29 Xeln4g4 wrote: Someone please tell me why he moved south with his army ang let himself (and 3rd base) get caught with pants down? I don't think that was a positioning mistake. I think it was just Hero had the bigger army and a sweet ass flank. | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
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Piste
6167 Posts
I missed every single important scene from third match, lurkers building into hero winning the game. Maybe it was some sort of uploading problem, since it seemed like the game was missing 10-30sec pieces with just a little content in between. I tried to rewind the youtube stream but it was still missing the same parts.. Missed the game but the result is now spoiled for me, argh. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:34 classicyellow83 wrote: Best is gonna do proxy 2 gate. I was wrong =( | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:45 MaGic~PhiL wrote: wow we might see a game 5 =) Hero is WAY behind. Look at tech and upgrade difference. | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
damn | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
crazy.. next upset (kinda..) probably.. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Sajiki
Germany522 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
i dont even know whats going to happen anymore.. crazy games.. wooow | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
THAT IS A GG STORM RIGHT THERE | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
GG as I loaded the page | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
Last two better fucking deliver. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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Sajiki
Germany522 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:49 Sajiki wrote: oh my god is hero doing it?? nope. fuck | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
ggs | ||
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ZoW
United States3983 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Beast storm at the end, lol. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1208 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
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10cr
Thailand287 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Nice job, Best. | ||
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
or best vs jaedong finals plz | ||
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:51 Heyoka wrote: I'm pretty excited to see BeSt play Sea that should be a good series i was always nervous about sea's tvp but after yesterday, it gave me a bit of hope hoping to see best vs sea go to 5 games though, i miss seeing best's pvt | ||
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:51 Grettin wrote: And here i thought Bisu, Hero, Flash and Jaedong will advance.. Last two better fucking deliver. u jinxed it =( | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
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ZidaneTribal
United States2800 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:53 Dante08 wrote: Don't think Hero was ahead even after the nexus snipe, should have saved his units, he was never going to stop a counterattack with the remaining units left and low drone count. Hero had to kill the third also to be ahead. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
Next time i'll keep my trap shut. I promise... | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:53 ZidaneTribal wrote: hydra busts just doesn't work vs protoss of this level.. when will hero learn You joking? Shine killed Bisu with 3 hatch hydra busts all the time and that was when bisu was top form. Hero also killed Bisu with it recently. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:53 Dante08 wrote: Don't think Hero was ahead even after the nexus snipe, should have saved his units, he was never going to stop a counterattack with the remaining units left and low drone count. idk why he didnt pick up the hydras with the overlords after that | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:51 reminisce12 wrote: wat is storm dodging Its not easy to dogde every storm when you have to micro your flank and macro at the same time. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:54 classicyellow83 wrote: GUEMCHI VS BEST PVP FINALS! paging for realpenguin | ||
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Warfie
Norway2846 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:51 Grettin wrote: And here i thought Bisu, Hero, Flash and Jaedong will advance.. Last two better fucking deliver. Jaedong might not advance. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:55 konadora wrote: idk why he didnt pick up the hydras with the overlords after that He was trying make best focus in his base so he can snipe third but, best was prepared for that also. | ||
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nurle
Norway308 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:55 konadora wrote: idk why he didnt pick up the hydras with the overlords after that That would've been so pimp if he'd pulled it off. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:57 classicyellow83 wrote: He was trying make best focus in his base so he can snipe third but, best was prepared for that also. The other thing is you pick up the hydras and risk dying to the corsairs no? | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:55 classicyellow83 wrote: Best received total of 50,000 balloons from fans when had advanced to round 8. I wonder how many he will receive today. What the....! Thats like 3 times more than for the first place! | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:58 Qikz wrote: The other thing is you pick up the hydras and risk dying to the corsairs no? it really doesn't matter if Hero doesn't kill the third. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Storm-magneting? | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:58 Qikz wrote: The other thing is you pick up the hydras and risk dying to the corsairs no? Best had like 2 corsairs left so that wouldn't have been a problem. Idk but I think he could have baited the army deeper into the main and picked them up at the last min while still attacking the 3rd. | ||
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ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
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Piste
6167 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:59 tanngard wrote: What the....! Thats like 3 times more than for the first place! Actually its the other way around. Still a lot of money! | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:55 classicyellow83 wrote: Best received total of 50,000 balloons from fans when had advanced to round 8. I wonder how many he will receive today. What's the conversion rate? | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
No matter what happens, the Finals will be a TBLS member vs a good second-tier guy who's currently playing out of his mind. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
50,000 balloons equal 5,000,000 Won. Since Best is BestBJ, He receives 70%. Which is 3,750,000 Won (3115.33 USD) | ||
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
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DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:59 LRM)TechnicS wrote: what build orders were played from both players in the previous games? i watched only the last game and don't want to jump quickly on a conclusion that hero was desperate and tried a very shallow hydra bust. Game 1 was extremely wonky 9pool speed vs 1base 2gate into 2h lair vs 1base P paly, into beSt taking natural. Game 2 was 3hatch spire (far 3rd) vs FFE 2 stargate (Hero completely failed to deal with corsairs and got rekt hard by DT as a result) | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:06 quirinus wrote: Guys, he did pick up the hydras and dropped them out of BeSt's base. I'm pretty sure about that. He means right when he killed the nexus. Hero stayed a bit. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
1 balloon = 100 KRW 1000KRW = .80 dollar so 10 balloons = .8 dollar. 50k balloons = 5 million won 5 mil won is about 4200 USD so damn thats a decent amount of money. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:07 DarkNetHunter wrote: Game 1 was extremely wonky 9pool speed vs 1base 2gate into 2h lair vs 1base P paly, into beSt taking natural. Game 2 was 3hatch spire (far 3rd) vs FFE 2 stargate (Hero completely failed to deal with corsairs and got rekt hard by DT as a result) Game 1 was a huge mindgame play from Best. Best had shown Gate-first in both his PvZs vs Jaedong, Hero wanted to punish with the 9 pool gas opener, so best went 2 gate instead. pretty weird game but it worked for him. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10095 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:12 [[Starlight]] wrote: I wonder how big this ASL is in Korea right now? Is it getting coverage, now that the big boys are back? apparently from bisudagger on stream, koreans used to not cover tournaments that much and teamliquid was actually the biggest site for korean brood war for a good amount of time. now that TBLS is back and theres more hype around starcraft, a lot of his korean friends are even talking about Sea's interviews and stuff with other sponsors and people. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:07 DarkNetHunter wrote: Game 1 was extremely wonky 9pool speed vs 1base 2gate into 2h lair vs 1base P paly, into beSt taking natural. Game 2 was 3hatch spire (far 3rd) vs FFE 2 stargate (Hero completely failed to deal with corsairs and got rekt hard by DT as a result) thank you very much, DNH. Interesting BO picks by both players both these games as well IMO. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:12 [[Starlight]] wrote: I wonder how big this ASL is in Korea right now? Is it getting coverage, now that the big boys are back? Best was just 3rd most searched name on Naver.com earlier. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:14 FlaShFTW wrote: apparently from bisudagger on stream, koreans used to not cover tournaments that much and teamliquid was actually the biggest site for korean brood war for a good amount of time. now that TBLS is back and theres more hype around starcraft, a lot of his korean friends are even talking about Sea's interviews and stuff with other sponsors and people. Very good to hear. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:06 quirinus wrote: Guys, he did pick up the hydras and dropped them out of BeSt's base. I'm pretty sure about that. No he picked up only 4 out of the 16 that he dropped | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:14 FlaShFTW wrote: apparently from bisudagger on stream, koreans used to not cover tournaments that much and teamliquid was actually the biggest site for korean brood war for a good amount of time. now that TBLS is back and theres more hype around starcraft, a lot of his korean friends are even talking about Sea's interviews and stuff with other sponsors and people. You sure about that? Bigger than Sgael? There's barely 1,600 users on Team Liquid now. | ||
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Vuk_91
Serbia1690 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:22 Vuk_91 wrote: Hero needed to kill the templar archives and then control the ramp with those hydras. The main was 95% mined out, I really don't understand what was the point of killing that nexus. It really doesn't matter. Hero lost when hydraling all-in failed. | ||
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Vuk_91
Serbia1690 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:24 classicyellow83 wrote: It really doesn't matter. Hero lost when hydraling all-in failed. I'm not sure. Best also had a failed attack from a semi-all in... I mean if you go for 7-8 gateways from 2 bases, and you don't kill a zerg, you're not in the best shape. | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:15 classicyellow83 wrote: Best was just 3rd most searched name on Naver.com earlier. Thats great! | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:27 Vuk_91 wrote: I'm not sure. Best also had a failed attack from a semi-all in... I mean if you go for 7-8 gateways from 2 bases, and you don't kill a zerg, you're not in the best shape. that wasn't semi all-in. Hero had 3-4 drones at his third with no lair tech. That's all-in. Best had all his tech up with 3 gate ways and highly saturated probes. Plus all the pro gamers watching this said it's impossible for Best to lose this bc all in failed. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:27 Vuk_91 wrote: I'm not sure. Best also had a failed attack from a semi-all in... I mean if you go for 7-8 gateways from 2 bases, and you don't kill a zerg, you're not in the best shape. I don't know if I'm the only one but it feels like zergs can learn to scout more. Like, the attack on hero's third, hero could've had much better positioning but he scouted late and had best control the bigger ramp etc... | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:12 [[Starlight]] wrote: I wonder how big this ASL is in Korea right now? Is it getting coverage, now that the big boys are back? League of Legends is the biggest e-Sport, and the current game Ongamenet is milking money off from. Afreeca, Korea's answer to Twitch, is quite a successful platform for ex-professional players who played Brood War. Terror[fOu] is basically biggest streaming personality in Korea (although his content is not that reliant on Brood War, he has his roots), and the Brood War is among the most watched games on Afreeca, and more importantly, Brood War streamers tend to have more success getting donations than League of Legends streamers due to the older age of the average Brood War fan. All this vibrant scene we see today are literally built off from the pockets of old school Brood War Korean fanbase. Today's round of eight had around 100,000 viewers isn't that far off from the online viewership of around 300,000 viewers or so for the finals of LCK finals (if my research was correct, not sure), which is the biggest domestic League of Legends competition in Korea. For a scene that is existing almost solely due its presence on a Korean streaming site, it's doing okay. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:39 Letmelose wrote: League of Legends is the biggest e-Sport, and the current game Ongamenet is milking money off from. Afreeca, Korea's answer to Twitch, is quite a successful platform for ex-professional players who played Brood War. Terror[fOu] is basically biggest streaming personality in Korea (although his content is not that reliant on Brood War, he has his roots), and the Brood War is among the most watched games on Afreeca, and more importantly, Brood War streamers tend to have more success getting donations than League of Legends streamers due to the older age of the average Brood War fan. All this vibrant scene we see today are literally built off from the pockets of old school Brood War Korean fanbase. Today's round of eight had around 100,000 viewers isn't that far off from the online viewership of around 300,000 viewers or so for the finals of LCK finals (if my research was correct, not sure), which is the biggest domestic League of Legends competition in Korea. For a scene that is existing almost solely existing due its presence on a Korean streaming site, it's doing okay. How likely is it that there will be a next step though? Another big tournament with sponsor support or something like that? If not now when the hype about TBLS is there probably never right? | ||
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:39 Letmelose wrote: League of Legends is the biggest e-Sport, and the current game Ongamenet is milking money off from. Afreeca, Korea's answer to Twitch, is quite a successful platform for ex-professional players who played Brood War. Terror[fOu] is basically biggest streaming personality in Korea (although his content is not that reliant on Brood War, he has his roots), and the Brood War is among the most watched games on Afreeca, and more importantly, Brood War streamers tend to have more success getting donations than League of Legends streamers due to the older age of the average Brood War fan. All this vibrant scene we see today are literally built off from the pockets of old school Brood War Korean fanbase. Today's round of eight had around 100,000 viewers isn't that far off from the online viewership of around 300,000 viewers or so for the finals of LCK finals (if my research was correct, not sure), which is the biggest domestic League of Legends competition in Korea. For a scene that is existing almost solely existing due its presence on a Korean streaming site, it's doing okay. glad to hear this | ||
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sparklyresidue
United States5523 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19208 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:39 Letmelose wrote: League of Legends is the biggest e-Sport, and the current game Ongamenet is milking money off from. Afreeca, Korea's answer to Twitch, is quite a successful platform for ex-professional players who played Brood War. Terror[fOu] is basically biggest streaming personality in Korea (although his content is not that reliant on Brood War, he has his roots), and the Brood War is among the most watched games on Afreeca, and more importantly, Brood War streamers tend to have more success getting donations than League of Legends streamers due to the older age of the average Brood War fan. All this vibrant scene we see today are literally built off from the pockets of old school Brood War Korean fanbase. Today's round of eight had around 100,000 viewers isn't that far off from the online viewership of around 300,000 viewers or so for the finals of LCK finals (if my research was correct, not sure), which is the biggest domestic League of Legends competition in Korea. For a scene that is existing almost solely existing due its presence on a Korean streaming site, it's doing okay. Every other post on my facebook is showing coverage of Sea's win on a different media site. It's pretty awesome to see this. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Poll: Recommend game 3? yes (17) no (0) 17 total votes Your vote: Recommend game 3? Poll: Recommend game 4? yes (15) no (3) 18 total votes Your vote: Recommend game 4? | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On January 03 2017 22:05 sparklyresidue wrote: I'm not sure if anyone's already mentioned this, but the "full results" spoiler in the OP doesn't seem to be displaying correctly in the last 2 threads. fixed, thanks ^^ | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:52 The_Red_Viper wrote: How likely is it that there will be a next step though? Another big tournament with sponsor support or something like that? If not now when the hype about TBLS is there probably never right? There is no next step. Professional Brood War was built off the fact that BoxeR had just as much mainstream popularity and exposure as the celebrities during his prime, Brood War being the national pastime for years (not just the most played videogame like League of Legends is currently), and the right people, with the right ideas came together to build the scene from the ground up, until it could only make sense for the large sponsors such as Shinhan bank, and SK Telecom to join in the fun, and get some cheap exposure and good will from the enormous, passionate fan-base. With nobody in the scene quite managing to carry the torch from BoxeR, the game losing its popularity over the years, sAviOr making the national news for all the wrong reasons, and Blizzard wanting Korea to adopt Starcraft 2 in place of Brood War as its main e-Sports title, all work put in by millions came crashing down like a house of cards. League of Legends has now filled its void. Any kid dreaming of being a professional gamer now dreams of being the next Faker, not BoxeR. Afreeca is the only place to go for ex-professionals, and fans of Brood War. It's quite sizeable, especially since a lot of us miss Brood War, and the generous Brood War fans who are helping these Brood War streamers become some of the most successful on Afreeca, are not the kids playing the game in PC bangs anymore. Everything is coming out of the pockets of these generous fans of Brood War, and it's mostly for nostalgia's sake. There are no big sponsors willing to put in all that blood, sweat, and tears needed to rejuvinate this scene to the position it once had. There are only those who see this as an opportunity to leech money off from since its viewerbase now has some purchasing prowess, or those who returned to the scene after turning their backs to it when it was literally being killed against the wills of the fans, who quietly have resuscitated it to its current level today purely for the love of the game. I don't think you can ask any more from those generous fans. They have already suffered so much, and offered nothing but love. Just enjoy what you can, do what you can do to help the scene if you care about its growth, and be wary of those sick fucks who try to make their pockets fuller at the cost of anything, even the death of the scene. | ||
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CUTtheCBC
Canada91 Posts
of course it will never be as big as before, but who cares? | ||
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Piste
6167 Posts
On January 03 2017 22:23 Letmelose wrote: There is no next step. Professional Brood War was built off the fact that BoxeR had just as much mainstream popularity and exposure as the celebrities during his prime, Brood War being the national pastime for years (not just the most played videogame like League of Legends is currently), and the right people, with the right ideas came together to build the scene from the ground up, until it could only make sense for the large sponsors such as Shinhan bank, and SK Telecom to join in the fun, and get some cheap exposure and good will from the enormous, passionate fan-base. With nobody in the scene quite managing to carry the torch from BoxeR, the game losing its popularity over the years, sAviOr making the national news for all the wrong reasons, and Blizzard wanting Korea to adopt Starcraft 2 in place of Brood War as its main e-Sports title, all work put in by millions came crashing down like a house of cards. League of Legends has now filled its void. Any kid dreaming of being a professional gamer now dreams of being the next Faker, not BoxeR. Afreeca is the only place to go for ex-professionals, and fans of Brood War. It's quite sizeable, especially since a lot of us miss Brood War, and the generous Brood War fans who are helping these Brood War streamers become some of the most successful on Afreeca, are not the kids playing the game in PC bangs anymore. Everything is coming out of the pockets of these generous fans of Brood War, and it's mostly for nostalgia's sake. There are no big sponsors willing to put in all that blood, sweat, and tears needed to rejuvinate this scene to the position it once had. There are only those who see this as an opportunity to leech money off from since its viewerbase now has some purchasing prowess, or those who returned to the scene after turning their backs to it when it was literally being killed against the wills of the fans, who quietly have resuscitated it to its current level today purely for the love of the game. I don't think you can ask any more from those generous fans. They have already suffered so much, and offered nothing but love. Just enjoy what you can, do what you can do to help the scene if you care about its growth, and be wary of those sick fucks who try to make their pockets fuller at the cost of anything, even the death of the scene. So did you believe we would get back to this point when professional broodwar was forcekilled? | ||
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Malkiyah
Russian Federation92 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgflip.com/1h0fu3.jpg) | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 03 2017 22:59 Piste wrote: So did you believe we would get back to this point when professional broodwar was forcekilled? Considering the initial success of streamers such as Terror[fOu], I thought it was indicative of the fact that Brood War fans still wanted Brood War content, but I didn't know if they could support the scene if it grew beyond a couple of players. I knew I wasn't able to, but was pleasantly surprised that Brood War streamers such as PuSan and Sea were making a decent living off streaming on Afreeca, and that success lured bigger names to try out streaming. I'm so greatful that while Brood War fans weren't strong enough to stop those bastards from killing the professional scene, they were successful in sustaining a streaming scene that is continuously growing. I was always aware of the passion Korean fans had for Brood War, but I wasn't aware of how deep their pockets were. I want to be one of those generous fans one day also, but I don't think the major sponsors have exactly the same idea in mind. The recourses they need to go through in order to make sufficient profit from this particular industry makes me incredibly suspicous whenever I see claims of interest in this growing scene that was almost entirely built off from fan support. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:52 The_Red_Viper wrote: How likely is it that there will be a next step though? Another big tournament with sponsor support or something like that? If not now when the hype about TBLS is there probably never right? They are gonna have [NeOx] vs Moo. Proleague style in pickup studio(where ASL is being held right now) soon. They haven't set a date yet but it will happen. | ||
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Miragee
8471 Posts
On January 03 2017 20:13 GTR wrote: for me it was gorush vs nada from the iops osl semi-finals how nada won the 3rd set on dream of balhae, i'll never figure out. when i was talking to gorush at artosis' christmas party in 2015 i kept ribbing him about it and all he could say was 'nada is just god' Just watched the first 3 games and I must say the level of play is just laughable compared to modern age (not talking about strategies here). No offense intended, the games were probably insane for that day and age. It's also hard to figure out how GoRush lost set 3. Nada was basicall on 1 base for 30 minutes of the game. Everytime he got a second one he lost the other. If anything GoRush lost because of 2 things. First, he didn't defend his bases at all. Losing a base to 4 marines without reacting, losing 7 drones and half of a hatches life to ONE marine and a medic... He didn't react at all to all those attacks. Secondly, hydras suck ass against marines. They may have killed a billion CCs but in fights they were so damn ineffecient. In one of the earlier fights for example he lost more than 20 hydras vs a control group of marines+ a few medics when he had like 4 control groups of hydras. That's how bad hydras are against marines. If you waste so many minerals then yeah, you can be 5 bases ahead and still lose the game. | ||
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Broodwar4lyf
304 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 03 2017 23:36 Miragee wrote: Just watched the first 3 games and I must say the level of play is just laughable compared to modern age (not talking about strategies here). No offense intended, the games were probably insane for that day and age. It's also hard to figure out how GoRush lost set 3. Nada was basicall on 1 base for 30 minutes of the game. Everytime he got a second one he lost the other. If anything GoRush lost because of 2 things. First, he didn't defend his bases at all. Losing a base to 4 marines without reacting, losing 7 drones and half of a hatches life to ONE marine and a medic... He didn't react at all to all those attacks. Secondly, hydras suck ass against marines. They may have killed a billion CCs but in fights they were so damn ineffecient. In one of the earlier fights for example he lost more than 20 hydras vs a control group of marines+ a few medics when he had like 4 control groups of hydras. That's how bad hydras are against marines. If you waste so many minerals then yeah, you can be 5 bases ahead and still lose the game. + Show Spoiler + You can't judge these games with a modern context. Watch the above clip. With a modern context in mind, you'll probably blame the zerg for not doing the appropriate building placements to stop the vulture run-by, and realize that the game is mostly over once two vultures went inside the base. However, it wasn't the case when you watched it live. This is was when the vulture micro-management we take for granted today wasn't even in the minds of the viewers as being possible. If you can understand Korean, you'll notice how instead of realizing that the zerg player is in deep shit, the commentator (one of the greatest around) proceeds to tell us how merely two vultures won't be able to do that much damage versus that many zerglings (because he wasn't aware of the level of micro-management that was possible), then is audibly surprised by the level of NaDa displays here (the level of which you probably won't even blink an eye after watching). This is the commentary of an ex-professional who was actively playing the terran race at the top level (his last appearance in the top 16 was in 2002) only a few years before. Imagine how mind blowing it was for me (a casual viewer) when I first watched it. I didn't even comprehend why NaDa made vultures in the first place, and was blown away by what he could do with it, as was his opponent GoRush, by how hard he got whooped by it. All past games suck ass if you just try to view it from a modern perspective without knowing how many years of advancements it took for the game to reach the current level. I literally thought that the plays I was witnessing being executed at the hands of NaDa would never be surpassed by any player ever, that's how clean his play seemed to be at the time. Otherwise every iconic moment in history becomes a piece of shit. Oh that BoxeR micro-management was so shit, what the hell was the zerg thinking. What's so amazing about iloveoov taking the natural off two barracks? It's called a natural for god's sake, it's the obvious thing to do. Bisu build? What is that newb sAviOr doing building mutalisks against corsair dark templar combination? Is he retarded? | ||
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NeonFlare
Finland1307 Posts
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Miragee
8471 Posts
On January 04 2017 00:42 NeonFlare wrote: Maybe I'm blind but Liquipedia doesn't have dates for remaining matches? Sunday 8th and Tuesday 10th. | ||
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NeonFlare
Finland1307 Posts
On January 04 2017 00:45 Miragee wrote: @Letmelose: I'll answer later, don't have time right now. Sunday 8th and Tuesday 10th. Alright, thanks. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On January 04 2017 00:29 Letmelose wrote: + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAAvTqpffnA&t=11s You can't judge these games with a modern context. Watch the above clip. With a modern context in mind, you'll probably blame the zerg for not doing the appropriate building placements to stop the vulture run-by, and realize that the game is mostly over once two vultures went inside the base. However, it wasn't the case when you watched it live. This is was when the vulture micro-management we take for granted today wasn't even in the minds of the viewers as being possible. If you can understand Korean, you'll notice how instead of realizing that the zerg player is in deep shit, the commentator (one of the greatest around) proceeds to tell us how merely two vultures won't be able to do that much damage versus that many zerglings (because he wasn't aware of the level of micro-management that was possible), then is audibly surprised by the level of NaDa displays here (the level of which you probably won't even blink an eye after watching). This is the commentary of an ex-professional who was actively playing the terran race at the top level (his last appearance in the top 16 was in 2002) only a few years before. Imagine how mind blowing it was for me (a casual viewer) when I first watched it. I didn't even comprehend why NaDa made vultures in the first place, and was blown away by what he could do with it, as was his opponent GoRush, by how hard he got whooped by it. All past games suck ass if you just try to view it from a modern perspective without knowing how many years of advancements it took for the game to reach the current level. I literally thought that the plays I was witnessing being executed at the hands of NaDa would never be surpassed by any player ever, that's how clean his play seemed to be at the time. Otherwise every iconic moment in history becomes a piece of shit. Oh that BoxeR micro-management was so shit, what the hell was the zerg thinking. What's so amazing about iloveoov taking the natural off two barracks? It's called a natural for god's sake, it's the obvious thing to do. Bisu build? What is that newb sAviOr doing building mutalisks against corsair dark templar combination? Is he retarded? yeah i think letmeloose is right about this. You gotta see the notable achievements and outstanding plays in broodwar in the context of their time, game development and metagame. Ofc they are not necessarily impressive any more to modern eyes, because modern gameplay incorporates all those great innovations in strategy, micro and macro that were truly marvellous at their time. | ||
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
On January 04 2017 01:11 Cele wrote: yeah i think letmeloose is right about this. You gotta see the notable achievements and outstanding plays in broodwar in the context of their time, game development and metagame. Ofc they are not necessarily impressive any more to modern eyes, because modern gameplay incorporates all those great innovations in strategy, micro and macro that were truly marvellous at their time. All it takes is to realise professional gaming is mostly about the relative skill of pros in comparison to the rest of the scene, rather than trying to compare completely different time frames | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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Vivi57
United States6599 Posts
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Miragee
8471 Posts
On January 04 2017 00:29 Letmelose wrote: + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAAvTqpffnA&t=11s You can't judge these games with a modern context. Watch the above clip. With a modern context in mind, you'll probably blame the zerg for not doing the appropriate building placements to stop the vulture run-by, and realize that the game is mostly over once two vultures went inside the base. However, it wasn't the case when you watched it live. This is was when the vulture micro-management we take for granted today wasn't even in the minds of the viewers as being possible. If you can understand Korean, you'll notice how instead of realizing that the zerg player is in deep shit, the commentator (one of the greatest around) proceeds to tell us how merely two vultures won't be able to do that much damage versus that many zerglings (because he wasn't aware of the level of micro-management that was possible), then is audibly surprised by the level of NaDa displays here (the level of which you probably won't even blink an eye after watching). This is the commentary of an ex-professional who was actively playing the terran race at the top level (his last appearance in the top 16 was in 2002) only a few years before. Imagine how mind blowing it was for me (a casual viewer) when I first watched it. I didn't even comprehend why NaDa made vultures in the first place, and was blown away by what he could do with it, as was his opponent GoRush, by how hard he got whooped by it. All past games suck ass if you just try to view it from a modern perspective without knowing how many years of advancements it took for the game to reach the current level. I literally thought that the plays I was witnessing being executed at the hands of NaDa would never be surpassed by any player ever, that's how clean his play seemed to be at the time. Otherwise every iconic moment in history becomes a piece of shit. Oh that BoxeR micro-management was so shit, what the hell was the zerg thinking. What's so amazing about iloveoov taking the natural off two barracks? It's called a natural for god's sake, it's the obvious thing to do. Bisu build? What is that newb sAviOr doing building mutalisks against corsair dark templar combination? Is he retarded? I think you didn't quite get what I was saying. I specifically added "not talking about strategies here". Of course I won't judge GoRush for playing mass hydra against marines, even though today we know how much that sucks. Or for basically playing without swarm for 20-25 minutes into each game. That's not what I was talking about. I was talking about basics such as reaction-time when a push or harass happens, hence the examples. It's just ridiculous to see a single marine kill 7 drones and half a hatch. Even when I was a total noob and didn't even have an idea that a pro scene existed I had faster reaction times, lol. I thought Nada's early game micro was pretty damn good btw. GoRush's ling control on the other hand sucked balls. Which is weird because his drone micro against the bunker rush (in game 3 I think) was actually pretty decent. Again, I'm not talking about all the silly runbys. That's a totally different story and I know that it was a common thing to do back then. | ||
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:39 Letmelose wrote: Afreeca, Korea's answer to Twitch, is quite a successful platform for ex-professional players who played Brood War. Why "answer" when Afreeca was before Justin/Twitch.tv? Anyway, I'm happy that my favorite Protoss player won this. Didn't expect it, at all. | ||
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
I can elaborate if anyone's interested but it's pretty much for the same reasons other people have been mentioning. | ||
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Miragee
8471 Posts
On January 04 2017 05:00 B-royal wrote: Well this was the worst casting ever by tasteless and artosis for game 1. I couldn't bear listening to them any more after that. Korean stream for me from now on! I can elaborate if anyone's interested but it's pretty much for the same reasons other people have been mentioning. You are welcome to enjoy BisuDagger and FlashFTW over on the other english stream. It's not listed in the sidebar because of technical issues but it's always listed in the OP. Today's cast was pretty enjoyable imho. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 04 2017 05:04 Miragee wrote: You are welcome to enjoy BisuDagger and FlashFTW over on the other english stream. It's not listed in the sidebar because of technical issues but it's always listed in the OP. Today's cast was pretty enjoyable imho. +1. The BisuDagger/FlashFTW cast was pretty good. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
BeSt beasted it!!! Edit: yes I listened to the BisuDagger and the FlashFTW | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
Very very upset by these results. Taking a long hard look at my race. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On January 04 2017 05:00 B-royal wrote: Well this was the worst casting ever by tasteless and artosis for game 1. I couldn't bear listening to them any more after that. Korean stream for me from now on! I can elaborate if anyone's interested but it's pretty much for the same reasons other people have been mentioning. I'm interested. I set my alarm to watch these matches but missed them, so I haven't seen the casting. | ||
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ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
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RouaF
France4120 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I'm starting to think Best could win the whole thing. His PvT is beastly, he can analyse sea's game from the quarter and then maybe upset flash in the finals. Impressive play by him overall IMO ! | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 04 2017 04:31 Miragee wrote: I think you didn't quite get what I was saying. I specifically added "not talking about strategies here". Of course I won't judge GoRush for playing mass hydra against marines, even though today we know how much that sucks. Or for basically playing without swarm for 20-25 minutes into each game. That's not what I was talking about. I was talking about basics such as reaction-time when a push or harass happens, hence the examples. It's just ridiculous to see a single marine kill 7 drones and half a hatch. Even when I was a total noob and didn't even have an idea that a pro scene existed I had faster reaction times, lol. I thought Nada's early game micro was pretty damn good btw. GoRush's ling control on the other hand sucked balls. Which is weird because his drone micro against the bunker rush (in game 3 I think) was actually pretty decent. Again, I'm not talking about all the silly runbys. That's a totally different story and I know that it was a common thing to do back then. The level of strategies, utilization of units, understanding of army compositions, mini-map awarness, most efficient mouse and keyboard arrangement to manage bases, and build paths that are set in stone to the most minute detail are things that we all take for granted. Of course you have amazing reaction times when you have a list of certain things the opponent can do to you, in a list of decreasing order of likelihood, at every single moment of the game. With the situation of the early game, there is a push of three tanks, and one science vessel coming at 9 minutes 30 seconds, better re-position my lurkers in advance. There could be a dropship coming for my third base round about now, I KNEW IT, spotted the red dot in the mini-map, I have such INSANE REACTION TIME. You do realize even the most mundane things that we take for granted are things that were processed at real-time when Brood War actually was a real-time strategy game, not a economy-based base management game with difficult execution of army control it evolved into. Even when you were a total newb, you probably had some knowledge of various situations of the game built-in within you, you weren't constantly thinking and trying to coming up with optimal strategies and reactions to stuff that you never experienced. Totally different set of circumstances. If you had superior mechanics, base management, and reaction times the first time you touched the game, without having the luxury all the built in knowledge from a game that was over ten years old (even without the advancements in the professional scene), you can ridicule this game for its low quality. Otherwise this is like me saying I can prove my superior intellect to Leonardo Da Vinci by taking a textbook of advanced calculus written in a language he understands, and gloating about how I can learn how to solve difficult equations quicker than he can (and boast about the fact that I never even majored in mathematics). That's not taking into consideration that Leonardo Da Vinci has way more information he needs to process before he can even wrap his head around the concepts that are being shown to him. If you were already on a similar level as a casual amateur way back then, then perhaps the world has missed a godly Brood War talent in you, if you're just gloating about how you had faster reaction times without taking into consideration all the circumstances that defined those eras, you're no better than those 300 APM Circuit Breaker spamming brain dead retards who give absolutely zero respect to the older generation of legends, thinking they were some dudes who were lucky to play before the game became advanced, just because they managed to hit E once on the Fish Server ladder. The game became advanced because of these players, because of the accumulation of knowledge of a game played on a fixed patch for more than a decade, with advancements that were accelerated due to the wide spread of information due to the replays, televised games of absolute top level professionals who were literally breaking the known limitations of how to manipulate the game. These guys were the Neo to the matrix of Starcraft. Just because Neo can be beaten to a pulp outside the context of the matrix doesn't stop him from being a god within his realm. Respect the context of the era. Just have more respect in general. You can make light of almost every game, and player in existence, if you have that kind of attitude, with zero reverence of the era you weren't personally there to witness, and not understand the full context of. What now? Pele was a newb who can't even lick the boots of Suarez? Einstein in 2017 LUL, he didn't even accept quantum mechanics. How can this guy be considered a genius. Everything and everyone can becomes a joke given the loftly position of hindsight. Don't be that kind of guy. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
I actually liked Tastosis for once, they even caught the fast archives thing in game 2 which kinda surprised me. Poor hero realising it's 2 star as his mutas are popping. | ||
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Miragee
8471 Posts
The level of strategies, utilization of units, understanding of army compositions, mini-map awarness, most efficient mouse and keyboard arrangement to manage bases, and build paths that are set in stone to the most minute detail are things that we all take for granted. Of course you have amazing reaction times when you have a list of certain things the opponent can do to you, in a list of decreasing order of likelihood, at every single moment of the game. I'm not talking about any of that. It's as simple as a marine attacking something and you get a pop-up warning ingame that something is attacking you. You don't need insane reaction times to react faster than GoRush did. It took him more than 30 seconds. I'm not asking him to be a Jaedong and scourge every dropship in advance. The funny thing is: Nada reacted way, way, waaaay quicker than Gorush. So I don't quite get your argument. Clearly even back then faster reaction times were possible. Even when you were a total newb, you probably had some knowledge of various situations of the game built-in within you, you weren't constantly thinking and trying to coming up with optimal strategies and reactions to stuff that you never experienced. I was actually talking about the time when I played offline vs AI, playing a self-invented 1 base lurker strat to not die to 16 zealots "rushing" me. I was beyond terrible. Otherwise this is like me saying I can prove my superior intellect to Leonardo Da Vinci by taking a textbook of advanced calculus written in a language he understands, and gloating about how I can learn how to solve difficult equations quicker than he can (and boast about the fact that I never even majored in mathematics). That's not taking into consideration that Leonardo Da Vinci has way more information he needs to process before he can even wrap his head around the concepts that are being shown to him. No. If Leonardo Da Vinci actually needed 30 seconds for remembering that he had to use +/- in every simple calculation then yes, that would be adequate. If you were already on a similar level as a casual amateur way back then, then perhaps the world has missed a godly Brood War talent in you, if you're just gloating about how you had faster reaction times without taking into consideration all the circumstances that defined those eras I never said I was on a similar level. I was as far away from that as my dog. And I don't even own one. Compared to me back they are basically superior in every way. But believe me, it wouldn't take me 30 seconds to react to something attacking my buildings. you're no better than those 300 APM Circuit Breaker spamming brain dead retards who give absolutely zero respect to the older generation of legends, thinking they were some dudes who were lucky to play before the game became advanced, just because they managed to hit E once on the Fish Server ladder. Never said that, never meant that. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On January 04 2017 09:59 Letmelose wrote: The level of strategies, utilization of units, understanding of army compositions, mini-map awarness, most efficient mouse and keyboard arrangement to manage bases, and build paths that are set in stone to the most minute detail are things that we all take for granted. Of course you have amazing reaction times when you have a list of certain things the opponent can do to you, in a list of decreasing order of likelihood, at every single moment of the game. With the situation of the early game, there is a push of three tanks, and one science vessel coming at 9 minutes 30 seconds, better re-position my lurkers in advance. There could be a dropship coming for my third base round about now, I KNEW IT, spotted the red dot in the mini-map, I have such INSANE REACTION TIME. You do realize even the most mundane things that we take for granted are things that were processed at real-time when Brood War actually was a real-time strategy game, not a economy-based base management game with difficult execution of army control it evolved into. Even when you were a total newb, you probably had some knowledge of various situations of the game built-in within you, you weren't constantly thinking and trying to coming up with optimal strategies and reactions to stuff that you never experienced. Totally different set of circumstances. If you had superior mechanics, base management, and reaction times the first time you touched the game, without having the luxury all the built in knowledge from a game that was over ten years old (even without the advancements in the professional scene), you can ridicule this game for its low quality. Otherwise this is like me saying I can prove my superior intellect to Leonardo Da Vinci by taking a textbook of advanced calculus written in a language he understands, and gloating about how I can learn how to solve difficult equations quicker than he can (and boast about the fact that I never even majored in mathematics). That's not taking into consideration that Leonardo Da Vinci has way more information he needs to process before he can even wrap his head around the concepts that are being shown to him. If you were already on a similar level as a casual amateur way back then, then perhaps the world has missed a godly Brood War talent in you, if you're just gloating about how you had faster reaction times without taking into consideration all the circumstances that defined those eras, you're no better than those 300 APM Circuit Breaker spamming brain dead retards who give absolutely zero respect to the older generation of legends, thinking they were some dudes who were lucky to play before the game became advanced, just because they managed to hit E once on the Fish Server ladder. The game became advanced because of these players, because of the accumulation of knowledge of a game played on a fixed patch for more than a decade, with advancements that were accelerated due to the wide spread of information due to the replays, televised games of absolute top level professionals who were literally breaking the known limitations of how to manipulate the game. These guys were the Neo to the matrix of Starcraft. Just because Neo can be beaten to a pulp outside the context of the matrix doesn't stop him from being a god within his realm. Respect the context of the era. Just have more respect in general. You can make light of almost every game, and player in existence, if you have that kind of attitude, with zero reverence of the era you weren't personally there to witness, and not understand the full context of. What now? Pele was a newb who can't even lick the boots of Suarez? Einstein in 2017 LUL, he didn't even accept quantum mechanics. How can this guy be considered a genius. Everything and everyone can becomes a joke given the loftly position of hindsight. Don't be that kind of guy. this is the new trend,anyone on the internet is an expert and can do better,just visit games of thrones/westworld or the walking dead threads.there are full of potential scripwriters for the oscar award. Also thanks alot for all this information you are giving to us <3.at the same time it is a shame there is not just a thread for this and i fear this will be eventually forgotten =( . | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
#1 there are multiple actions happening in the game ,he defended the dropship but didnt notice 1 marine was left while his atention was in other place. #2 he was sure the dropship was cleaned but it wasnt #3 to much pressure #4 are we talking about 1 marine push that killed 7 drones and half hatchery or? | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 04 2017 10:42 Miragee wrote: Dude calm down. You throw insults at me left and right, accusing me of something I didn't do. You are going way over the top and missinterpreting all of my statements for some reason. I'm sorry if I hurt you with my phrase "the level of play was laughable". It was at times. I'm not backing down on that. However, that doesn't mean at all that I don't respect the older generation. I gave specific examples of what I thought was pretty bad, even without all the knowledge we have now. I don't know why you are throwing in so many more "examples" I didn't ever mention. Bleh. I'm not even sure I want to discuss this anymore but I at least want to debunk some stuff you accusing me of. I'm not talking about any of that. It's as simple as a marine attacking something and you get a pop-up warning ingame that something is attacking you. You don't need insane reaction times to react faster than GoRush did. It took him more than 30 seconds. I'm not asking him to be a Jaedong and scourge every dropship in advance. The funny thing is: Nada reacted way, way, waaaay quicker than Gorush. So I don't quite get your argument. Clearly even back then faster reaction times were possible. I was actually talking about the time when I played offline vs AI, playing a self-invented 1 base lurker strat to not die to 16 zealots "rushing" me. I was beyond terrible. No. If Leonardo Da Vinci actually needed 30 seconds for remembering that he had to use +/- in every simple calculation then yes, that would be adequate. I never said I was on a similar level. I was as far away from that as my dog. And I don't even own one. Compared to me back they are basically superior in every way. But believe me, it wouldn't take me 30 seconds to react to something attacking my buildings. Never said that, never meant that. In my personal opinion, it was way more of a challenge to keep up to pace with NaDa, the most mechanically gifted player of all time in terms of how far ahead he was ahead of his peers, than it was to keep up with Jaedong, or Bisu during his absolute peak. You don't see the same level of mockery for players that are being overwhelmed by the sheer number of battles, haraassments, and intense battles of micro-management presented by modern day mechanical gods such as Jaedong, or Bisu. You're pretending NaDa is the acceptable level, and make light of the level of play GoRush was capable of at the time, that is nothing short of disrepectful. Do you know how good GoRush was at the time, the auora he had as the member of Yang-Park? Who cares about your reaction time when you were playing against an AI? How fast would your reaction time be if you were pummeled to the ground by the then unprecedented 400 APM of pure NaDa carnage? You so sure that you would have been able to keep up? NaDa was the freak of nature because he still looks moderately decent even by today's standards. He's basically the greatest talent in the history of the game, and you think I won't take offense to your couch expert opinions on how everyone was bad at the time, and the unimaginable level of manipulation of the game NaDa was capable of pulling off is merely "pretty good"? It's okay to say that the level of play was laughable compared to today's games, even if it is in very poor taste. You had me triggered by having the nerve to compare yourself to these gods, even if it was in the most specific capacity. It's exactly like me comparing my intelligence to Leonardo Da Vinci. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
So, props to the greats of today, and props to the greats of yesteryear. All contributed to BW's evolution, all are deserving. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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NewbOnTheFloor
Poland160 Posts
On January 04 2017 18:18 classicyellow83 wrote: Best said he just practiced builds against computer. -_-;;;;;;;;; LMFAO :D | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On January 04 2017 18:18 classicyellow83 wrote: Best said he just practiced builds against computer. -_-;;;;;;;;; That's normal no? Especially in the post professional era, because it might leak too easily right now. Also, BeSt is a Macro beast, all he has to do is memorise the build order to the tee and then he can probably execute it no matter what people throw at him. | ||
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dRaW
Canada5744 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
On January 03 2017 21:06 classicyellow83 wrote: 50,000 balloons equal 5,000,000 Won. Since Best is BestBJ, He receives 70%. Which is 3,750,000 Won (3115.33 USD) Thanks. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On January 04 2017 18:18 classicyellow83 wrote: Best said he just practiced builds against computer. -_-;;;;;;;;; haha funny since someone just mentioned playing against the computer but still cool to hear, admittely. You do realize even the most mundane things that we take for granted are things that were processed at real-time when Brood War actually was a real-time strategy game, not a economy-based base management game with difficult execution of army control it evolved into very interesting analyse I can see where this is coming from, still hard to understand all concepts of it i think. Before it was more improvisation, right? You could harass more freely, the gameplay was more open to things. In today present time and a few years back, harass didnt work as well, if you tried something and it didnt work you were behind. Before that, you werent really behind. Something like this? | ||
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GTR
51398 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On January 04 2017 22:18 GTR wrote: anybody know if someone recorded the fpvods from the past two ro8 series? would like to watch. Bisu vs Sea: http://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/16771606 Best vs Hero: http://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/16839907 | ||
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v1p3r52
New Zealand182 Posts
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Miragee
8471 Posts
On January 05 2017 03:57 Dazed_Spy wrote: How could someone say hydras are inefficient against marines, when everyone (who isnt bad) knows that hydra lurker is in fact the best composition against marines one could think of? Hydra lurker was phased out because it was too gas intensive to survive in tandem with dark swarm + 3 factory tank builds destroy hydra lurker, more precise macro timings from terrans, etc. In other words it was phased out in spite of it being the better composition because it was too gas intensive to do while hitting key timings. It's not the better composition if it's not feasible economically. Please watch some old games again and notice how hydras get decimated by marine/medic in even numbers or even slighty advantegeous numbers in favour of the hydras. The dps is far too low to compete with medics healing the marines and target firing single marines isn't feasible. Lurkers did the main dmg against marines in hydra/lurker compositions and hydras are mostly a meat-shield. And at that point lings are a much better alternative because they are way cheaper and interact way better with swarm. If you watch old games, terrans often used swarm against the zerg by placing their marines under the swarm, making them immune to hydra attacks. The only advantage hydras have over lings is their ability to snipe command centers. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
You need defilers plague to drain the medic energy and shave off the hit points first so that it takes a couple hydra shots for each marine. And if you have the economy to sustain hydra, lurker, defiler, then you really have too much money and should have won with a better composition. In defiler lurker combos, you might keep the hydras around to pop some science vessels, but if there are any tanks, those hydras are going to pop as well. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On January 05 2017 07:20 Miragee wrote: It's not the better composition if it's not feasible economically. Please watch some old games again and notice how hydras get decimated by marine/medic in even numbers or even slighty advantegeous numbers in favour of the hydras. The dps is far too low to compete with medics healing the marines and target firing single marines isn't feasible. Lurkers did the main dmg against marines in hydra/lurker compositions and hydras are mostly a meat-shield. And at that point lings are a much better alternative because they are way cheaper and interact way better with swarm. If you watch old games, terrans often used swarm against the zerg by placing their marines under the swarm, making them immune to hydra attacks. The only advantage hydras have over lings is their ability to snipe command centers. Hydra/Lurker is actually good vs sk terran style. So they are decent+ vs vessels. Hyra/Lurker also does more damage than zergling/lurker. Infact i want to seeway more hydras when terran goes mech transition. | ||
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Miragee
8471 Posts
On January 05 2017 09:41 Foxxan wrote: Hydra/Lurker is actually good vs sk terran style. So they are decent+ vs vessels. Hyra/Lurker also does more damage than zergling/lurker. Infact i want to seeway more hydras when terran goes mech transition. Hydras are decent against Vessels but Scourges are probably superior. And how does Hydra/Lurker more dmg than Ling/Lurker when a single ling is literally doing 2 times as much damage as a hydra to a marine? Don't you think there is a reason the pro scene went away from playing hydras against marines and instead are going for zerglings for what? The past 10 years or so? Your idea for hydras when the terran goes for the mech transition might be nice in theory but I think it depends a lot on the situation. Usually the zerg isn't that much on the map when the terran switches to mech. The zerg is mostly pusing for eco and upgrades. And the upgrades are an issue here. You don't want to split your upgrades between range and melee. And hydras without attack upgrades and without range and speed become shit against mech really quick. However, if the zerg has, for whatever reason, the chance to be really aggressive during the mech switch, hydras might be a good idea. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
Also, I think the reason midgame hydralurk was phased out was 1rax cc timings. I mean there's no way you are getting hydras with upgrades while defending the usual timings in the first 10 minutes or so, at least at the top level. 3 gas defiler is the most reliable, and only comes with lurkerling. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
For mechanics, hydras and queens are a go to for some players but ultraling is also a possibility. I think it highly depends on the player's comfort level etc... | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 05 2017 07:20 Miragee wrote: It's not the better composition if it's not feasible economically. Please watch some old games again and notice how hydras get decimated by marine/medic in even numbers or even slighty advantegeous numbers in favour of the hydras. The dps is far too low to compete with medics healing the marines and target firing single marines isn't feasible. I haven't watched a lot of very old ZvT games, so I have to ask... Why isn't focus-firing hydras against marines an option? Would seem to deny medic heal effectively, at least at first. Is it just that once you get under 8 hydras still alive in a control group, medics are back in play since you can't one-shot 'rines anymore? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 05 2017 13:25 [[Starlight]] wrote: I haven't watched a lot of very old ZvT games, so I have to ask... Why isn't focus-firing hydras against marines an option? Would seem to deny medic heal effectively, at least at first. Is it just that once you get under 8 hydras still alive in a control group, medics are back in play since you can't one-shot 'rines anymore? + Show Spoiler + Watch this game. There are plenty of games that shows good utilization of hydralisks versus bionic armies. This is a game from late 2005, it has crisp usage of the troops (although the mutalisk stacking hadn't been invented yet), including frequent use of focus-firing. However, this is at the hands July, the guy who built his success off being about two years ahead of his time in terms of micro-management. Further more, this isn't from the exact same era (the game was played about 10 months after the game between NaDa and GoRush took place). Focus firing was a known concept, but players didn't have it built into them like automatic muscle memory, and in long-ass games and crazy stuff happening everywhere, playing against the absolute mechanical god in NaDa, it's not a shock to see sloppy plays by today's standards. It was only after the enormous success of players that had the ability to pull off clean execution (that we expect from all players today) of all the little tricks we take for granted throughout the game from start to finish, such as NaDa, or July, that other players started to realize that we the necessary standard to reach the very top. Games from the past are bound to be sloppy in comparison, not because they didn't know any better (which was sometimes the case), but because they weren't aware of the standards that we are familiar with today. The game was released almost twenty years ago, and the advancements that accumulated over time has made even the most obtuse fans aware of the things that could be done better. Of course games from the past have more strategical and mechanical deficiencies, people have been studying even the tiniest methods of better manipulating the game for over ten years. Every new boundary that is broken makes the past a little more obsolete, and inefficient in comparison. Stats from 2011 could go back in time and make bitches out sAviOr, Bisu, and NaDa in early 2007. It doesn't diminish the accomplishments. NaDa from 2007 would make a fool out of BoxeR, YellOw, and GARIMTO in 2001. It doesn't stop the fact that what was played at the time was the highest possible level of play. They were the Neo to the matrix of Brood War. Just because the matrix itself changed after Neo fucked with it (creation of infinite Agents or whatever the fuck the plot was) doesn't change the fact that what Neo was a god. Never try to judge the past with a modern eye. Be fully aware of the context, and the circumstances. Otherwise you'll end up like people who can't appreciate the insanity that was building the pyramids way back with statements like, why don't they make towers with reinforced concrete, Burj Khalifa is like a billion times greater in height, and it doesn't even have glass windows, it's a useless architecture with no significance. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 04 2017 18:40 Qikz wrote: That's normal no? Especially in the post professional era, because it might leak too easily right now. Also, BeSt is a Macro beast, all he has to do is memorise the build order to the tee and then he can probably execute it no matter what people throw at him. Best said when he was a pro, he would memorize builds up to 100/200 unit count. If units die, he would subtract that out of the 100 to perfectly optimize the build. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 05 2017 16:44 classicyellow83 wrote: Best said when he was a pro, he would memorize builds up to 100/200 unit count. If units die, he would subtract that out of the 100 to perfectly optimize the build. One of the most cerebral protoss players of the modern era in terms of being able to optimize a build. People would keep mentioning how he was a macro-management god, when in fact Bisu was the superior player in his ability produce units non-stop. Even with Bisu copying his builds, BeSt always had a very nuanced approach to how best optimize against a terran according the the situation, and regularly created situation where he looked like the best macro protoss in the world against terrans. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:54 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: u will be surprised how often can u see a zerg player getting owned by this on stream vs 1 gate expand even vs no names ^^.this build is not so easy to deal with if u want to play a macro game.you either commit to lings and most likely fail /win or semi defend it with the exact lings you need then transition to 4 hatch hydra +1 hydra hold zealot push add +2 hatcheries ,or you can just die to zealots +1.u cant play the classic 3 hatch spire into 5 hatcheries cuz your eco was totally broke by making more lings,no adding the drones,late lair,sair will be extremely powerful .or you can rush to lair but then u will be low in drones and everything will be a mess. On December 27 2016 21:23 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: On December 27 2016 21:21 Miragee wrote: Bisu > Sea Best < hero Flash > Guemchi (which means Guemchi will win, as always if I predict against him) Stork < Jaedong I actually think Sea will beat Bisu. Best will beat hero. Yes Flash will beat Guemchi despite your voodoo tricks And yes Jaedong will beat stork. But stork is totally capable of winning, unfortunately he always plays so safe vs zerg. He's too easy to predict and routine is a huge advantage to zerg. This is basically a shameless brag showing that I do know what I'm talking about This from the ro16 thread. The overall point being you have to look at each player game by game and see where they are NOW. You can't look at the history as the end all to be all. Especially in the post kespa era where a player is essentially constantly getting closer and closer to their peak performance at varying rates. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On January 05 2017 10:09 Miragee wrote: Hydras are decent against Vessels but Scourges are probably superior. And how does Hydra/Lurker more dmg than Ling/Lurker when a single ling is literally doing 2 times as much damage as a hydra to a marine? Don't you think there is a reason the pro scene went away from playing hydras against marines and instead are going for zerglings for what? The past 10 years or so? Your idea for hydras when the terran goes for the mech transition might be nice in theory but I think it depends a lot on the situation. Usually the zerg isn't that much on the map when the terran switches to mech. The zerg is mostly pusing for eco and upgrades. And the upgrades are an issue here. You don't want to split your upgrades between range and melee. And hydras without attack upgrades and without range and speed become shit against mech really quick. However, if the zerg has, for whatever reason, the chance to be really aggressive during the mech switch, hydras might be a good idea. Scourges arent as reliable vs vessel as hydra. Also hydra zones quite well for protection of defilers. Harder to catch units with vessels vs hydras with range than vs scourges. Zerglings gets less value when marines reaches critical mass, also firebats but firebats arent really built so i deeply suspect because of the melee thing, hard to reach the bio ball. I think there is a reason but the reason MIGHt not be because hydra/lurker are less effecient overall. So might be because hydra/Lurker is harder to reach 3bases+ and an big enough armee. Anyway i dont know for certain. I know for example its hard to catch up with an fast expansion terran that pumps up pure bio for a while. Hydra/Lurk on 2base is pretty bad. About the mech transition, well i dont know but they are good to clear spidemrines and good vs vultures. VUltures vs masslings/ultras and they can kite all day on a big map, some hydras added and it becomes much better for zerg. I think even if zerg is passive here, some hydras can potentially open up the door for the ling/lurk/defiler attack on some base from terran since without the hydras hard to reach destination vs kiting vultures and spidermines. | ||
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Miragee
8471 Posts
On January 05 2017 10:31 ortseam wrote: Hydras have been used extensively against mech in the last two years, I mean Effort was using hydra/queen as much as ultraling in 2015. There are also semi-allin builds wheere zergs were using hydras to eliminate mine fields and defiler/lurker to hold critical positions while killing Terran bases (like cut off reinforcements with swarm while using main army to kill other bases) If the terran goes for mech directly then hydra is a good choice, yes. That was never point of the discussion though. On January 05 2017 13:25 [[Starlight]] wrote: I haven't watched a lot of very old ZvT games, so I have to ask... Why isn't focus-firing hydras against marines an option? Would seem to deny medic heal effectively, at least at first. Is it just that once you get under 8 hydras still alive in a control group, medics are back in play since you can't one-shot 'rines anymore? It's feasible in small numbers but just imagine how long it takes to target fire 40 marines individually. On top of that, klicking marines is a whole lot harder than tank because they are smaller and are moving around fast. A AI could do that with 5000 apm and still be able to macro. A human however would not be able to do it and do everything else he needs to do. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
On January 05 2017 19:39 Miragee wrote: If the terran goes for mech directly then hydra is a good choice, yes. That was never point of the discussion though. I was talking about late mech which was indeed mentioned | ||
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Miragee
8471 Posts
On January 05 2017 22:14 ortseam wrote: I was talking about late mech which was indeed mentioned And at what point did effort switch to hydras? I haven't been watching his stream at all, sorry about that. My point was that it's difficult to switch during the mech transition. If the game goes on for longer, then adding hydras seems feasible to me. Did effort do hydras from the start or did he add them later on? | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Tbh, if mech switch is scouted, transitioning into hydras isn't really difficult, since Terran can't risk losing too much bio or map control is gone. The main disadvantage with hydra play in my eyes, is that they don't have the fast reinforcement rate, while ultraling can usually overwhelm Terran if a couple of major battles are won and the main Terran army is broken | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
It's feasible in small numbers but just imagine how long it takes to target fire 40 marines individually. On top of that, klicking marines is a whole lot harder than tank because they are smaller and are moving around fast. A AI could do that with 5000 apm and still be able to macro. A human however would not be able to do it and do everything else he needs to do. Fair point, but... what's the difference between hydras and any other unit that needs a lot of micro to do well in battle, such as mutas or vultures? Nor do those other high-micro units seem to have a problem hitting individual workers or 'rines. I suspect focus-fire hydras do pretty decently vs marines (as per LetMeLoose's vid above), and that their unpopularity there is less to do with micro issues than with things like ling surrounds, ling-lurker, and stacked-mutas being generally better. But of course, hydras do offer more flexibility than some of those other options... can hit air, can be made into lurkers if you need, need some gas but not a ton. | ||
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Miragee
8471 Posts
On January 06 2017 10:31 [[Starlight]] wrote: Fair point, but... what's the difference between hydras and any other unit that needs a lot of micro to do well in battle, such as mutas or vultures? Nor do those other high-micro units seem to have a problem hitting individual workers or 'rines. I suspect focus-fire hydras do pretty decently vs marines (as per LetMeLoose's vid above), and that their unpopularity there is less to do with micro issues than with things like ling surrounds, ling-lurker, and stacked-mutas being generally better. But of course, hydras do offer more flexibility than some of those other options... can hit air, can be made into lurkers if you need, need some gas but not a ton. The problem, again, is in big numbers. And it depends on how effiecient one klick is. Mutas are mainly used in the midgame to kill workers, some marines and important units like medics and tanks when they can manage it. You don't see a lot of mutas in late game and if you do, it's mostly just a stack to snipe some important units, not kill mass units like marines. Imagine people would build 5 stacks of mutas and tried to micro them individually to kill marines. As for vultures: People usually don't target fire small units with them. They are pretty good against small units without much micro in mass numbers. Again, the only target-firing that is done in lategame is for workers or for important units like defilers. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
On January 07 2017 10:03 Alejandrisha wrote: yes maybe if they were close spawn he would have made 5 zealots and rushed or something. real cool series haha you also need to keep in mind that hero got early gas for speed too you dont really need to move out in that case as you already have a pretty big advantage | ||
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Ruff_kz
Kazakhstan36 Posts
On January 04 2017 09:59 Letmelose wrote: The level of strategies, utilization of units, understanding of army compositions, mini-map awarness, most efficient mouse and keyboard arrangement to manage bases, and build paths that are set in stone to the most minute detail are things that we all take for granted. Of course you have amazing reaction times when you have a list of certain things the opponent can do to you, in a list of decreasing order of likelihood, at every single moment of the game. With the situation of the early game, there is a push of three tanks, and one science vessel coming at 9 minutes 30 seconds, better re-position my lurkers in advance. There could be a dropship coming for my third base round about now, I KNEW IT, spotted the red dot in the mini-map, I have such INSANE REACTION TIME. You do realize even the most mundane things that we take for granted are things that were processed at real-time when Brood War actually was a real-time strategy game, not a economy-based base management game with difficult execution of army control it evolved into. Even when you were a total newb, you probably had some knowledge of various situations of the game built-in within you, you weren't constantly thinking and trying to coming up with optimal strategies and reactions to stuff that you never experienced. Totally different set of circumstances. If you had superior mechanics, base management, and reaction times the first time you touched the game, without having the luxury all the built in knowledge from a game that was over ten years old (even without the advancements in the professional scene), you can ridicule this game for its low quality. Otherwise this is like me saying I can prove my superior intellect to Leonardo Da Vinci by taking a textbook of advanced calculus written in a language he understands, and gloating about how I can learn how to solve difficult equations quicker than he can (and boast about the fact that I never even majored in mathematics). That's not taking into consideration that Leonardo Da Vinci has way more information he needs to process before he can even wrap his head around the concepts that are being shown to him. If you were already on a similar level as a casual amateur way back then, then perhaps the world has missed a godly Brood War talent in you, if you're just gloating about how you had faster reaction times without taking into consideration all the circumstances that defined those eras, you're no better than those 300 APM Circuit Breaker spamming brain dead retards who give absolutely zero respect to the older generation of legends, thinking they were some dudes who were lucky to play before the game became advanced, just because they managed to hit E once on the Fish Server ladder. The game became advanced because of these players, because of the accumulation of knowledge of a game played on a fixed patch for more than a decade, with advancements that were accelerated due to the wide spread of information due to the replays, televised games of absolute top level professionals who were literally breaking the known limitations of how to manipulate the game. These guys were the Neo to the matrix of Starcraft. Just because Neo can be beaten to a pulp outside the context of the matrix doesn't stop him from being a god within his realm. Respect the context of the era. Just have more respect in general. You can make light of almost every game, and player in existence, if you have that kind of attitude, with zero reverence of the era you weren't personally there to witness, and not understand the full context of. What now? Pele was a newb who can't even lick the boots of Suarez? Einstein in 2017 LUL, he didn't even accept quantum mechanics. How can this guy be considered a genius. Everything and everyone can becomes a joke given the loftly position of hindsight. Don't be that kind of guy. RESPECT, comrade! There are no better words to defend great history of BW and its legendary players. Modern era is the result of previous development. People should learn Hegel's dialectic... | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On January 07 2017 11:03 Harem wrote: you also need to keep in mind that hero got early gas for speed too you dont really need to move out in that case as you already have a pretty big advantage yeah after watching the vods a second time it appears i didn't pay very close attention the first time around. this build is very cool and probably has a lot of iterations we would only see in parallel uni's if zerg had done x or y. i need to watch again to see what he knew before adding the second gate on high ground now :/ | ||
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