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[ASL2] Ro8 BeSt vs hero - Page 22

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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Cryoc
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany914 Posts
January 06 2017 22:11 GMT
#421
That was probably because they were cross spawns and hero opened 9pool. Otherwise he would have attacked and produced more zealots.
http://www.twitch.tv/cryoc
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6566 Posts
January 07 2017 01:03 GMT
#422
yes maybe if they were close spawn he would have made 5 zealots and rushed or something. real cool series haha
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11393 Posts
January 07 2017 02:03 GMT
#423
On January 07 2017 10:03 Alejandrisha wrote:
yes maybe if they were close spawn he would have made 5 zealots and rushed or something. real cool series haha

you also need to keep in mind that hero got early gas for speed too

you dont really need to move out in that case as you already have a pretty big advantage
Moderator。◕‿◕。
Ruff_kz
Profile Joined August 2015
Kazakhstan36 Posts
January 07 2017 07:16 GMT
#424
On January 04 2017 09:59 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2017 04:31 Miragee wrote:
On January 04 2017 00:29 Letmelose wrote:
On January 03 2017 23:36 Miragee wrote:
On January 03 2017 20:13 GTR wrote:
On January 03 2017 20:12 sharkie wrote:
On January 03 2017 20:10 Miragee wrote:
Hm, BD just spoke about the most memorial 3-0 comback after being down 0-2. He said Effort vs Flash. For me it's probably Jaedong vs Fantasy. The games were much better and much more exciting for me.


Yeah but in JD vs fantasy people never stopped believing in JD.
No one in their right mind ever expected Effort to win three times in a row vs Flash, no matter what.


for me it was gorush vs nada from the iops osl semi-finals
how nada won the 3rd set on dream of balhae, i'll never figure out.
when i was talking to gorush at artosis' christmas party in 2015 i kept ribbing him about it and all he could say was 'nada is just god'


Just watched the first 3 games and I must say the level of play is just laughable compared to modern age (not talking about strategies here). No offense intended, the games were probably insane for that day and age. It's also hard to figure out how GoRush lost set 3. Nada was basicall on 1 base for 30 minutes of the game. Everytime he got a second one he lost the other. If anything GoRush lost because of 2 things. First, he didn't defend his bases at all. Losing a base to 4 marines without reacting, losing 7 drones and half of a hatches life to ONE marine and a medic... He didn't react at all to all those attacks. Secondly, hydras suck ass against marines. They may have killed a billion CCs but in fights they were so damn ineffecient. In one of the earlier fights for example he lost more than 20 hydras vs a control group of marines+ a few medics when he had like 4 control groups of hydras. That's how bad hydras are against marines. If you waste so many minerals then yeah, you can be 5 bases ahead and still lose the game.


+ Show Spoiler +


You can't judge these games with a modern context. Watch the above clip. With a modern context in mind, you'll probably blame the zerg for not doing the appropriate building placements to stop the vulture run-by, and realize that the game is mostly over once two vultures went inside the base.

However, it wasn't the case when you watched it live. This is was when the vulture micro-management we take for granted today wasn't even in the minds of the viewers as being possible. If you can understand Korean, you'll notice how instead of realizing that the zerg player is in deep shit, the commentator (one of the greatest around) proceeds to tell us how merely two vultures won't be able to do that much damage versus that many zerglings (because he wasn't aware of the level of micro-management that was possible), then is audibly surprised by the level of NaDa displays here (the level of which you probably won't even blink an eye after watching).

This is the commentary of an ex-professional who was actively playing the terran race at the top level (his last appearance in the top 16 was in 2002) only a few years before. Imagine how mind blowing it was for me (a casual viewer) when I first watched it. I didn't even comprehend why NaDa made vultures in the first place, and was blown away by what he could do with it, as was his opponent GoRush, by how hard he got whooped by it. All past games suck ass if you just try to view it from a modern perspective without knowing how many years of advancements it took for the game to reach the current level. I literally thought that the plays I was witnessing being executed at the hands of NaDa would never be surpassed by any player ever, that's how clean his play seemed to be at the time.

Otherwise every iconic moment in history becomes a piece of shit. Oh that BoxeR micro-management was so shit, what the hell was the zerg thinking. What's so amazing about iloveoov taking the natural off two barracks? It's called a natural for god's sake, it's the obvious thing to do. Bisu build? What is that newb sAviOr doing building mutalisks against corsair dark templar combination? Is he retarded?


I think you didn't quite get what I was saying. I specifically added "not talking about strategies here". Of course I won't judge GoRush for playing mass hydra against marines, even though today we know how much that sucks. Or for basically playing without swarm for 20-25 minutes into each game. That's not what I was talking about. I was talking about basics such as reaction-time when a push or harass happens, hence the examples. It's just ridiculous to see a single marine kill 7 drones and half a hatch. Even when I was a total noob and didn't even have an idea that a pro scene existed I had faster reaction times, lol.

I thought Nada's early game micro was pretty damn good btw. GoRush's ling control on the other hand sucked balls. Which is weird because his drone micro against the bunker rush (in game 3 I think) was actually pretty decent. Again, I'm not talking about all the silly runbys. That's a totally different story and I know that it was a common thing to do back then.


The level of strategies, utilization of units, understanding of army compositions, mini-map awarness, most efficient mouse and keyboard arrangement to manage bases, and build paths that are set in stone to the most minute detail are things that we all take for granted. Of course you have amazing reaction times when you have a list of certain things the opponent can do to you, in a list of decreasing order of likelihood, at every single moment of the game. With the situation of the early game, there is a push of three tanks, and one science vessel coming at 9 minutes 30 seconds, better re-position my lurkers in advance. There could be a dropship coming for my third base round about now, I KNEW IT, spotted the red dot in the mini-map, I have such INSANE REACTION TIME.

You do realize even the most mundane things that we take for granted are things that were processed at real-time when Brood War actually was a real-time strategy game, not a economy-based base management game with difficult execution of army control it evolved into. Even when you were a total newb, you probably had some knowledge of various situations of the game built-in within you, you weren't constantly thinking and trying to coming up with optimal strategies and reactions to stuff that you never experienced. Totally different set of circumstances. If you had superior mechanics, base management, and reaction times the first time you touched the game, without having the luxury all the built in knowledge from a game that was over ten years old (even without the advancements in the professional scene), you can ridicule this game for its low quality.

Otherwise this is like me saying I can prove my superior intellect to Leonardo Da Vinci by taking a textbook of advanced calculus written in a language he understands, and gloating about how I can learn how to solve difficult equations quicker than he can (and boast about the fact that I never even majored in mathematics). That's not taking into consideration that Leonardo Da Vinci has way more information he needs to process before he can even wrap his head around the concepts that are being shown to him.

If you were already on a similar level as a casual amateur way back then, then perhaps the world has missed a godly Brood War talent in you, if you're just gloating about how you had faster reaction times without taking into consideration all the circumstances that defined those eras, you're no better than those 300 APM Circuit Breaker spamming brain dead retards who give absolutely zero respect to the older generation of legends, thinking they were some dudes who were lucky to play before the game became advanced, just because they managed to hit E once on the Fish Server ladder.

The game became advanced because of these players, because of the accumulation of knowledge of a game played on a fixed patch for more than a decade, with advancements that were accelerated due to the wide spread of information due to the replays, televised games of absolute top level professionals who were literally breaking the known limitations of how to manipulate the game. These guys were the Neo to the matrix of Starcraft. Just because Neo can be beaten to a pulp outside the context of the matrix doesn't stop him from being a god within his realm. Respect the context of the era. Just have more respect in general. You can make light of almost every game, and player in existence, if you have that kind of attitude, with zero reverence of the era you weren't personally there to witness, and not understand the full context of. What now? Pele was a newb who can't even lick the boots of Suarez? Einstein in 2017 LUL, he didn't even accept quantum mechanics. How can this guy be considered a genius. Everything and everyone can becomes a joke given the loftly position of hindsight. Don't be that kind of guy.

RESPECT, comrade! There are no better words to defend great history of BW and its legendary players. Modern era is the result of previous development. People should learn Hegel's dialectic...
"Keep on dreaming, boy, cause someday you will shine" (Ogogo).
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6566 Posts
January 11 2017 19:39 GMT
#425
On January 07 2017 11:03 Harem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2017 10:03 Alejandrisha wrote:
yes maybe if they were close spawn he would have made 5 zealots and rushed or something. real cool series haha

you also need to keep in mind that hero got early gas for speed too

you dont really need to move out in that case as you already have a pretty big advantage


yeah after watching the vods a second time it appears i didn't pay very close attention the first time around. this build is very cool and probably has a lot of iterations we would only see in parallel uni's if zerg had done x or y. i need to watch again to see what he knew before adding the second gate on high ground now :/
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
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