EPT[ASL2] Ro8 BeSt vs hero - Page 21
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v1p3r52
New Zealand182 Posts
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Miragee
8429 Posts
On January 05 2017 03:57 Dazed_Spy wrote: How could someone say hydras are inefficient against marines, when everyone (who isnt bad) knows that hydra lurker is in fact the best composition against marines one could think of? Hydra lurker was phased out because it was too gas intensive to survive in tandem with dark swarm + 3 factory tank builds destroy hydra lurker, more precise macro timings from terrans, etc. In other words it was phased out in spite of it being the better composition because it was too gas intensive to do while hitting key timings. It's not the better composition if it's not feasible economically. Please watch some old games again and notice how hydras get decimated by marine/medic in even numbers or even slighty advantegeous numbers in favour of the hydras. The dps is far too low to compete with medics healing the marines and target firing single marines isn't feasible. Lurkers did the main dmg against marines in hydra/lurker compositions and hydras are mostly a meat-shield. And at that point lings are a much better alternative because they are way cheaper and interact way better with swarm. If you watch old games, terrans often used swarm against the zerg by placing their marines under the swarm, making them immune to hydra attacks. The only advantage hydras have over lings is their ability to snipe command centers. | ||
TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
You need defilers plague to drain the medic energy and shave off the hit points first so that it takes a couple hydra shots for each marine. And if you have the economy to sustain hydra, lurker, defiler, then you really have too much money and should have won with a better composition. In defiler lurker combos, you might keep the hydras around to pop some science vessels, but if there are any tanks, those hydras are going to pop as well. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On January 05 2017 07:20 Miragee wrote: It's not the better composition if it's not feasible economically. Please watch some old games again and notice how hydras get decimated by marine/medic in even numbers or even slighty advantegeous numbers in favour of the hydras. The dps is far too low to compete with medics healing the marines and target firing single marines isn't feasible. Lurkers did the main dmg against marines in hydra/lurker compositions and hydras are mostly a meat-shield. And at that point lings are a much better alternative because they are way cheaper and interact way better with swarm. If you watch old games, terrans often used swarm against the zerg by placing their marines under the swarm, making them immune to hydra attacks. The only advantage hydras have over lings is their ability to snipe command centers. Hydra/Lurker is actually good vs sk terran style. So they are decent+ vs vessels. Hyra/Lurker also does more damage than zergling/lurker. Infact i want to seeway more hydras when terran goes mech transition. | ||
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Miragee
8429 Posts
On January 05 2017 09:41 Foxxan wrote: Hydra/Lurker is actually good vs sk terran style. So they are decent+ vs vessels. Hyra/Lurker also does more damage than zergling/lurker. Infact i want to seeway more hydras when terran goes mech transition. Hydras are decent against Vessels but Scourges are probably superior. And how does Hydra/Lurker more dmg than Ling/Lurker when a single ling is literally doing 2 times as much damage as a hydra to a marine? Don't you think there is a reason the pro scene went away from playing hydras against marines and instead are going for zerglings for what? The past 10 years or so? Your idea for hydras when the terran goes for the mech transition might be nice in theory but I think it depends a lot on the situation. Usually the zerg isn't that much on the map when the terran switches to mech. The zerg is mostly pusing for eco and upgrades. And the upgrades are an issue here. You don't want to split your upgrades between range and melee. And hydras without attack upgrades and without range and speed become shit against mech really quick. However, if the zerg has, for whatever reason, the chance to be really aggressive during the mech switch, hydras might be a good idea. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
Also, I think the reason midgame hydralurk was phased out was 1rax cc timings. I mean there's no way you are getting hydras with upgrades while defending the usual timings in the first 10 minutes or so, at least at the top level. 3 gas defiler is the most reliable, and only comes with lurkerling. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
For mechanics, hydras and queens are a go to for some players but ultraling is also a possibility. I think it highly depends on the player's comfort level etc... | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 05 2017 07:20 Miragee wrote: It's not the better composition if it's not feasible economically. Please watch some old games again and notice how hydras get decimated by marine/medic in even numbers or even slighty advantegeous numbers in favour of the hydras. The dps is far too low to compete with medics healing the marines and target firing single marines isn't feasible. I haven't watched a lot of very old ZvT games, so I have to ask... Why isn't focus-firing hydras against marines an option? Would seem to deny medic heal effectively, at least at first. Is it just that once you get under 8 hydras still alive in a control group, medics are back in play since you can't one-shot 'rines anymore? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 05 2017 13:25 [[Starlight]] wrote: I haven't watched a lot of very old ZvT games, so I have to ask... Why isn't focus-firing hydras against marines an option? Would seem to deny medic heal effectively, at least at first. Is it just that once you get under 8 hydras still alive in a control group, medics are back in play since you can't one-shot 'rines anymore? + Show Spoiler + Watch this game. There are plenty of games that shows good utilization of hydralisks versus bionic armies. This is a game from late 2005, it has crisp usage of the troops (although the mutalisk stacking hadn't been invented yet), including frequent use of focus-firing. However, this is at the hands July, the guy who built his success off being about two years ahead of his time in terms of micro-management. Further more, this isn't from the exact same era (the game was played about 10 months after the game between NaDa and GoRush took place). Focus firing was a known concept, but players didn't have it built into them like automatic muscle memory, and in long-ass games and crazy stuff happening everywhere, playing against the absolute mechanical god in NaDa, it's not a shock to see sloppy plays by today's standards. It was only after the enormous success of players that had the ability to pull off clean execution (that we expect from all players today) of all the little tricks we take for granted throughout the game from start to finish, such as NaDa, or July, that other players started to realize that we the necessary standard to reach the very top. Games from the past are bound to be sloppy in comparison, not because they didn't know any better (which was sometimes the case), but because they weren't aware of the standards that we are familiar with today. The game was released almost twenty years ago, and the advancements that accumulated over time has made even the most obtuse fans aware of the things that could be done better. Of course games from the past have more strategical and mechanical deficiencies, people have been studying even the tiniest methods of better manipulating the game for over ten years. Every new boundary that is broken makes the past a little more obsolete, and inefficient in comparison. Stats from 2011 could go back in time and make bitches out sAviOr, Bisu, and NaDa in early 2007. It doesn't diminish the accomplishments. NaDa from 2007 would make a fool out of BoxeR, YellOw, and GARIMTO in 2001. It doesn't stop the fact that what was played at the time was the highest possible level of play. They were the Neo to the matrix of Brood War. Just because the matrix itself changed after Neo fucked with it (creation of infinite Agents or whatever the fuck the plot was) doesn't change the fact that what Neo was a god. Never try to judge the past with a modern eye. Be fully aware of the context, and the circumstances. Otherwise you'll end up like people who can't appreciate the insanity that was building the pyramids way back with statements like, why don't they make towers with reinforced concrete, Burj Khalifa is like a billion times greater in height, and it doesn't even have glass windows, it's a useless architecture with no significance. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 04 2017 18:40 Qikz wrote: That's normal no? Especially in the post professional era, because it might leak too easily right now. Also, BeSt is a Macro beast, all he has to do is memorise the build order to the tee and then he can probably execute it no matter what people throw at him. Best said when he was a pro, he would memorize builds up to 100/200 unit count. If units die, he would subtract that out of the 100 to perfectly optimize the build. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 05 2017 16:44 classicyellow83 wrote: Best said when he was a pro, he would memorize builds up to 100/200 unit count. If units die, he would subtract that out of the 100 to perfectly optimize the build. One of the most cerebral protoss players of the modern era in terms of being able to optimize a build. People would keep mentioning how he was a macro-management god, when in fact Bisu was the superior player in his ability produce units non-stop. Even with Bisu copying his builds, BeSt always had a very nuanced approach to how best optimize against a terran according the the situation, and regularly created situation where he looked like the best macro protoss in the world against terrans. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:54 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: u will be surprised how often can u see a zerg player getting owned by this on stream vs 1 gate expand even vs no names ^^.this build is not so easy to deal with if u want to play a macro game.you either commit to lings and most likely fail /win or semi defend it with the exact lings you need then transition to 4 hatch hydra +1 hydra hold zealot push add +2 hatcheries ,or you can just die to zealots +1.u cant play the classic 3 hatch spire into 5 hatcheries cuz your eco was totally broke by making more lings,no adding the drones,late lair,sair will be extremely powerful .or you can rush to lair but then u will be low in drones and everything will be a mess. On December 27 2016 21:23 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: On December 27 2016 21:21 Miragee wrote: Bisu > Sea Best < hero Flash > Guemchi (which means Guemchi will win, as always if I predict against him) Stork < Jaedong I actually think Sea will beat Bisu. Best will beat hero. Yes Flash will beat Guemchi despite your voodoo tricks And yes Jaedong will beat stork. But stork is totally capable of winning, unfortunately he always plays so safe vs zerg. He's too easy to predict and routine is a huge advantage to zerg. This is basically a shameless brag showing that I do know what I'm talking about  This from the ro16 thread. The overall point being you have to look at each player game by game and see where they are NOW. You can't look at the history as the end all to be all. Especially in the post kespa era where a player is essentially constantly getting closer and closer to their peak performance at varying rates. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On January 05 2017 10:09 Miragee wrote: Hydras are decent against Vessels but Scourges are probably superior. And how does Hydra/Lurker more dmg than Ling/Lurker when a single ling is literally doing 2 times as much damage as a hydra to a marine? Don't you think there is a reason the pro scene went away from playing hydras against marines and instead are going for zerglings for what? The past 10 years or so? Your idea for hydras when the terran goes for the mech transition might be nice in theory but I think it depends a lot on the situation. Usually the zerg isn't that much on the map when the terran switches to mech. The zerg is mostly pusing for eco and upgrades. And the upgrades are an issue here. You don't want to split your upgrades between range and melee. And hydras without attack upgrades and without range and speed become shit against mech really quick. However, if the zerg has, for whatever reason, the chance to be really aggressive during the mech switch, hydras might be a good idea. Scourges arent as reliable vs vessel as hydra. Also hydra zones quite well for protection of defilers. Harder to catch units with vessels vs hydras with range than vs scourges. Zerglings gets less value when marines reaches critical mass, also firebats but firebats arent really built so i deeply suspect because of the melee thing, hard to reach the bio ball. I think there is a reason but the reason MIGHt not be because hydra/lurker are less effecient overall. So might be because hydra/Lurker is harder to reach 3bases+ and an big enough armee. Anyway i dont know for certain. I know for example its hard to catch up with an fast expansion terran that pumps up pure bio for a while. Hydra/Lurk on 2base is pretty bad. About the mech transition, well i dont know but they are good to clear spidemrines and good vs vultures. VUltures vs masslings/ultras and they can kite all day on a big map, some hydras added and it becomes much better for zerg. I think even if zerg is passive here, some hydras can potentially open up the door for the ling/lurk/defiler attack on some base from terran since without the hydras hard to reach destination vs kiting vultures and spidermines. | ||
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Miragee
8429 Posts
On January 05 2017 10:31 ortseam wrote: Hydras have been used extensively against mech in the last two years, I mean Effort was using hydra/queen as much as ultraling in 2015. There are also semi-allin builds wheere zergs were using hydras to eliminate mine fields and defiler/lurker to hold critical positions while killing Terran bases (like cut off reinforcements with swarm while using main army to kill other bases) If the terran goes for mech directly then hydra is a good choice, yes. That was never point of the discussion though. On January 05 2017 13:25 [[Starlight]] wrote: I haven't watched a lot of very old ZvT games, so I have to ask... Why isn't focus-firing hydras against marines an option? Would seem to deny medic heal effectively, at least at first. Is it just that once you get under 8 hydras still alive in a control group, medics are back in play since you can't one-shot 'rines anymore? It's feasible in small numbers but just imagine how long it takes to target fire 40 marines individually. On top of that, klicking marines is a whole lot harder than tank because they are smaller and are moving around fast. A AI could do that with 5000 apm and still be able to macro. A human however would not be able to do it and do everything else he needs to do. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
On January 05 2017 19:39 Miragee wrote: If the terran goes for mech directly then hydra is a good choice, yes. That was never point of the discussion though. I was talking about late mech which was indeed mentioned | ||
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Miragee
8429 Posts
On January 05 2017 22:14 ortseam wrote: I was talking about late mech which was indeed mentioned And at what point did effort switch to hydras? I haven't been watching his stream at all, sorry about that. My point was that it's difficult to switch during the mech transition. If the game goes on for longer, then adding hydras seems feasible to me. Did effort do hydras from the start or did he add them later on? | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Tbh, if mech switch is scouted, transitioning into hydras isn't really difficult, since Terran can't risk losing too much bio or map control is gone. The main disadvantage with hydra play in my eyes, is that they don't have the fast reinforcement rate, while ultraling can usually overwhelm Terran if a couple of major battles are won and the main Terran army is broken | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
It's feasible in small numbers but just imagine how long it takes to target fire 40 marines individually. On top of that, klicking marines is a whole lot harder than tank because they are smaller and are moving around fast. A AI could do that with 5000 apm and still be able to macro. A human however would not be able to do it and do everything else he needs to do. Fair point, but... what's the difference between hydras and any other unit that needs a lot of micro to do well in battle, such as mutas or vultures? Nor do those other high-micro units seem to have a problem hitting individual workers or 'rines. I suspect focus-fire hydras do pretty decently vs marines (as per LetMeLoose's vid above), and that their unpopularity there is less to do with micro issues than with things like ling surrounds, ling-lurker, and stacked-mutas being generally better. But of course, hydras do offer more flexibility than some of those other options... can hit air, can be made into lurkers if you need, need some gas but not a ton. | ||
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Miragee
8429 Posts
On January 06 2017 10:31 [[Starlight]] wrote: Fair point, but... what's the difference between hydras and any other unit that needs a lot of micro to do well in battle, such as mutas or vultures? Nor do those other high-micro units seem to have a problem hitting individual workers or 'rines. I suspect focus-fire hydras do pretty decently vs marines (as per LetMeLoose's vid above), and that their unpopularity there is less to do with micro issues than with things like ling surrounds, ling-lurker, and stacked-mutas being generally better. But of course, hydras do offer more flexibility than some of those other options... can hit air, can be made into lurkers if you need, need some gas but not a ton. The problem, again, is in big numbers. And it depends on how effiecient one klick is. Mutas are mainly used in the midgame to kill workers, some marines and important units like medics and tanks when they can manage it. You don't see a lot of mutas in late game and if you do, it's mostly just a stack to snipe some important units, not kill mass units like marines. Imagine people would build 5 stacks of mutas and tried to micro them individually to kill marines. As for vultures: People usually don't target fire small units with them. They are pretty good against small units without much micro in mass numbers. Again, the only target-firing that is done in lategame is for workers or for important units like defilers. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Excellent research though and I wouldn't at all be surprised if you were right. But I also wouldn't be surprised if I was as well.
