Polls unfortunately do not hold much weight in these forums because there are way to many outside sources (people not watching and or playing in this event, voting out of spite, not caring the result)
What really needs to be done is people need to use there brains.
Polls unfortunately do not hold much weight in these forums because there are way to many outside sources (people not watching and or playing in this event, voting out of spite, not caring the result)
What really needs to be done is people need to use there brains.
I just wanted to quote that. It sums up the discussion so well.
if you notice people against having Scan participate in TLC are having a bigoted tone in their writing. They start off by telling the administration they are wrong in what they are doing, they don't merely disagree. I've been impressed by the administration keeping a more calm demeanor that can be taken more seriously in an actual debate but the way it is it's like this:
People end up repeating what they are saying and expect a different response but the administrators have already answered a lot of the same comments. The question is not if Scan is Korean but if he is a TL'er and the only reason anyone wants Scan out of the tourney is because he happens to be better. I don't get how they ignore the facts, only concerned about their own agenda. It doesn't help that a lot of the people (not all) against Scan have had a history of disrespect, condescension, pretentiousness, and bigotry outside of this TLC controversy. Asking rhetorical questions like "Have you ever played a game of StarCraft in your life?" to the administration isn't going to help prove your point and takes away any merit to your point if it had any. In the end a lot of these comments are based on emotion rather than any sort of deductive reasoning
Everyone's points have been made already and there isn't anymore to be said. It's a convoluted mess and now that there's a big prize pool everyone's all up in arms about Scan participating. In the end people are soooo miffed about the administration when they should be grateful this is even happening in the first place. Who cares who wins, just play your best and enjoy that there's something to spruce up the foreigner scene rather than take it for granted. The administration has made their decision. No matter what you say convolutedly stupid or not which no doubt has already been said won't be changing their minds.
No one wants Sziky out, he's heads above the rest, your argument is invalid. FyRe_DragOn basically nailed it
On July 30 2015 12:46 FyRe_DragOn wrote: We dont see people suggesting sziky be handicapped, because he doesnt have an unfair advantage, he has a fair advantage and its his right to play in foreigner leagues and capitalize on the advantage he has gained from the same ground as any other foreigner.
What makes people lose their temper is the apparent lack of response to the crucial questions (see Technics' frustration about his 21p. post).
Being a TL'er is not a criterion. Sziky's not a TL'er, half the russian players are not TL'ers, etc.
The issue is not as straightforward as you think. If it was down to any particular rule - you'd just compare the reality with what it says and make conclusions. But it's not, forcing the admins to address one issue at a time (which makes it look like they deliberately ignore the other ones) and 2pac, e.g., did it poorly. First he tried to invalidate claims that Scan to this day participates in actual pro-events by saying Chinese events simply don't count. Go figure, Chinese starcrafters are not allowed (why then?), but playing in COSL is fine. Then he tried to bust the "myth of unbeatable Scan" by picking exactly one tournament that Scan didn't win among 5-6 others that he obliterated. What kind of arguing is that? And should it be a valid point - why would it matter anyway if it was never about Scan's skill, but about him being korean in the sense 'not a foreigner'? I was done with this thread at that time but was amazed by the special tactics of 2pac's and came back (my bad).
Just curious, any gamer over B- actually was for Scan playing so far? I need a link to their feedback. All I see are people who don't play saying how great the games will be with Scan in the tournament, and 10+ gamers who have reached A- or higher saying he shouldn't play.
That is to say, I'm just curious... Also didn't like the casting about my man Jumperer, the guy is a legend on Facebook.
edit: I think I know what you think we know, but since I told you and actually am unsure what I hope for in this specific case, I thought there's a possibility you had something else in mind.
On July 30 2015 19:13 dRaW wrote: Just curious, any gamer over B- actually was for Scan playing so far? I need a link to their feedback. All I see are people who don't play saying how great the games will be with Scan in the tournament, and 10+ gamers who have reached A- or higher saying he shouldn't play.
That is to say, I'm just curious... Also didn't like the casting about my man Jumperer, the guy is a legend on Facebook.
Me, trutaCz and I believe G5 (maybe someone else too, sorry if I forgot somebody) suggested to allow all koreans with good connection to play or to not allow scan to play.
TL Organizers challenged players with "you guys go practice hard and we all enjoy the fruits". I challenged organizers with "go to fish and spread the word for the TL series and find other chogosu koreans with good connection to play as well". They said "no resources". And I basically view this as TL Organizers expecting foreigner players to practice hardcorely for a year to get a chance at 2nd-8th place (depending on the brackets) while they are clearly refusing to spend some hours a month for maybe 3 months on fish to find other chogosu koreans/pros to allow to play.
Ok, i just wonder if there is a big problem about a particular player participating in foreign bw events by a lot of the current foreign players that are part of the ever more scarce foreign bw scene, wouldn't it make sense to solve the issue somehow? I mean we are grateful about rus_brain's enormous donation for additional bw tournaments and all the organisers who will make this happen, but let us look at the facts:
1. Probably around half of the community is actively protesting towards the decision to let Scan play(based roughly on the poll results about the matter)
2. Without Sziky who said here that he has been inactive for a couple of months now and doesn't know when he might come back to play bw actively again(and is also against the decision), Scan has no real competition in these cups officially(assuming he is allowed to play his main race)
3. Scan is South-Korean and is among the best semi-pro Korean players nowadays. The sole fact that he speaks English somewhat well for a Korean and for that reason is able to engage in foreign forums does not make him a foreigner. "Scan, Ryoo Seung Kohn[2], was born in South Korea" - directly from liquipedia.
4. Several foreign bw players already voiced out their discouragement to participate in the tournaments if the decision remains as it is and Scan is allowed to play(some of them really top foreign players).
So, in conclusion, if no changes are going to be introduced on the controversy about Scan's participation what is most likely going to happen is - less foreign players playing and Scan(semi-pro Korean player) obliterating all competition with ease. If this is what the goal is and the people in charge are happy with it leave it as it is, because you have the full right.
PS I agree with TechnicS that if there are more really high level Korean players participating and the tours become open to the Korean scene as well the problem with Scan will vanish(everything will come down to lag in that scenario and Julia will be happy beyond measure)
The reason why it may seem like there's lack of response is because there are a lot of repetitive and off-topic arguments which are only becoming more and more emotional and personal. In order to try to put an end to this, here are two posts that have already been posted, which reflects our point of view the closest at the moment:
On July 25 2015 09:53 ProtossGG wrote: My point is this: If the majority want him out, maybe we should consider it - this way we are truly servicing the community and we can just end this bickering. Make an official vote. I know the TL staff wants it and the donator wants it, so yes, their executive decision ultimately will rule. But it seems lots of other top contenders and the majority would like to see Scan out. If it happens, then my apologies... but once again, let's perhaps make it somewhat democratic and try to service the majority here.
Yes, there's a merit to this argument, but I feel this would set a dangerous precedent where would have to specifically include in our rules "Scan is banned". Even though we're not afraid of doing this, we don't want to go down this road unless absolutely necessary. And we prefer to wait until we get some data before making such a decision.
On July 25 2015 08:43 2Pacalypse- wrote: In the end, I'll grant you that there seems to be a contradiction in my posts because we're seemingly trying to do two opposite things; keeping Scan in the tournament (because we don't want to ban member of our community from our own tournament) and increase the activity and motivation of the foreign BW scene (which according to you won't happen unless we ban Scan). Maybe I'm just an optimist and hope that both can coexist, or maybe I just want to wait until we see some results before going against our principles.
I'm sure everyone's aware of the annoying, repetitive nature of the complains. Including the complainers themselves. Which I think is itself saying something about the situation. There's frustration and it will only accumulate from tournament to tournament. Tbh you should just say "that's it, we aren't changing our decision" to prevent further bitching. Instead you want to gather some information - whatever it might be - from the following tournaments, which doesn't really make sense. Because the only information available will be Scan's win rate and if you're gonna ban him it will seem as if his power is indeed the only reason behind it. And the issue is exactly opposite.
All this looks like a big cluster fuck to me. I'm also very sad atm that no oldschoolers like myself has come back to practice for this. We want some more oldschoolers up in here
On July 31 2015 00:31 juvenal wrote: I'm sure everyone's aware of the annoying, repetitive nature of the complains. Including the complainers themselves. Which I think is itself saying something about the situation. There's frustration and it will only accumulate from tournament to tournament. Tbh you should just say "that's it, we aren't changing our decision" to prevent further bitching. Instead you want to gather some information - whatever it might be - from the following tournaments, which doesn't really make sense. Because the only information available will be Scan's win rate and if you're gonna ban him it will seem as if his power is indeed the only reason behind it. And the issue is exactly opposite.
On July 30 2015 20:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: They said "no resources"
I am very well acquainted with Fish server and the clans on Fish, I could easily help promote TLS / TLC on Fish and bring in more Korean players around Scans level or better, but umm that doesn't seem like the most logical thing to do in a "Foreign Tournament"? T_T
On July 31 2015 00:31 juvenal wrote: I'm sure everyone's aware of the annoying, repetitive nature of the complains. Including the complainers themselves. Which I think is itself saying something about the situation. There's frustration and it will only accumulate from tournament to tournament. Tbh you should just say "that's it, we aren't changing our decision" to prevent further bitching. Instead you want to gather some information - whatever it might be - from the following tournaments, which doesn't really make sense. Because the only information available will be Scan's win rate and if you're gonna ban him it will seem as if his power is indeed the only reason behind it. And the issue is exactly opposite.
Very true
Interesting, I thought you only knew how to say "wrong"
Anyways, there's a lot of information we can get and which we need so if/when we ban Scan, we have something to compare it to. Scan's win rate is not one of them as it is irrelevant. Even though it makes me feel queasy to ban a player as a part of an experiment, we may be forced to at this point.
and without them is like kespa bw without the star players.
Without Scan it is like OSL but Flash is excluded, becasue he is "too good"
Hi there mr cele,im going to explain you few points that u arent taking in consideration.
this is how progamers train,is not only about play the game just for fun,there are coaches and players to keep improving and fixing mistakes.why im saying this ? cuz happens i have the perfect example for you,my friend LancerX plays this game since 1997 beta and many would say he is bad if we compare the time he is been playing,but actually this is the case of a player that plays for fun that actually is somewhat good in the game.
Now this is how good players are made,training many hours x day and coaches helping them,But there is the exception of few of them that are somehow brilliants and put more effort than the rest in the practise room(Jaedong,Flash,Fantasy,Jangbi;Stork etc etc)
The skill was very high,every detail was important and playing in TV games for Flash was always one advantage compared to the rest.They were good in the practise rooms but no in the scenary.
talking about Idra and Nony,they were training in estro and Cj at some point,but that was it,they were playing,even if super daniel was good in english i watched some of his cast and he doesnt look like someone that really could help them,now this is mistery for me and maybe im speaking to much but i doubt he was present 12 hours of the day to traslate them in the room the advices of others,and from some interviews it looks like koreans are actually somehow very selfish and dont help foreigners that much,so this could explain why the improvement of Idra and Nony wasnt that big,(language barriers).
Now we have Scan,born in the Korean culture,he discover bw in the korean culture,he was already good in TSL 2 ? im not sure about that but he got banned there for sell matches.from my point of view Scan improved progressively like any other could if they were born in Korea and speaking with high skill players in korean,he is traning with pros and discusing with them about strategy.
Hi Mr Eonzerg. That's an inetersting post. But of course yes i know about the progamer training regiment. Im aware too that Idra/Nony/Ret don't fall under the same category. They never developed that level of play. You say because they didn't speak korean and had no chance to talk with other players in the house about their games and strategy? That sounds plausible.
I also agree on the advantage Scan has:
On July 30 2015 07:39 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Now we have Scan,born in the Korean culture,he discover bw in the korean culture,he was already good in TSL 2 ? im not sure about that but he got banned there for sell matches.from my point of view Scan improved progressively like any other could if they were born in Korea and speaking with high skill players in korean,he is traning with pros and discusing with them about strategy.
you sum it up pretty good. I understand your frustration, i really do. But then, i ask you, can you really ban a player from a Starleague (highest level of competition, just because he is too good?
Because that's what it comes down to. This whole argument is not about if scan is korean, or scan talks to much with progamers, or whatnot. it's an argument about skill. If you ban him from TLS cause he is too good, that means TLS Championship is worth nothing. Who wants to see a Starleague where the 2nd best wins? Who wants to play in the biggest foreign BW Tour since 2013 and win, and be 2nd best? I don't think that's where we want to go.
you take away everything a top level competition stands for. It's like D/C Ranks Tour then, of course level of play is much higher, but the idea is the same.
Wow dude, just wow.
He is Korean.
Not a foreigner.
There is no other information needed, everything else is VOID.
if it were that easy.we wouldn't have 27 pages of discussion. Of course you can oversimplify things, if you want. But that's not a good argument.
On July 31 2015 00:31 juvenal wrote: I'm sure everyone's aware of the annoying, repetitive nature of the complains. Including the complainers themselves. Which I think is itself saying something about the situation. There's frustration and it will only accumulate from tournament to tournament. Tbh you should just say "that's it, we aren't changing our decision" to prevent further bitching. Instead you want to gather some information - whatever it might be - from the following tournaments, which doesn't really make sense. Because the only information available will be Scan's win rate and if you're gonna ban him it will seem as if his power is indeed the only reason behind it. And the issue is exactly opposite.
Very true
Interesting, I thought you only knew how to say "wrong"
Anyways, there's a lot of information we can get and which we need so if/when we ban Scan, we have something to compare it to. Scan's win rate is not one of them as it is irrelevant. Even though it makes me feel queasy to ban a player as a part of an experiment, we may be forced to at this point.
you should not feel bad about it because you're not responsible for it. The community is very literal in what it demands so Scan should hold no grudge to the admins. Also it would probably be better if you just voiced what info are you waiting for. Otherwise it might look like soft-pedaling the issue until 2-3 tournaments from now, when no one really cares anymore.
edit: I think I know what you think we know, but since I told you and actually am unsure what I hope for in this specific case, I thought there's a possibility you had something else in mind.
I meant the enjoy the game in combination with the content of your posts. Always makes me smile :D
At this point of the discussion I'd be interested to see what would happen if Scan was actually "banned" from the TLC - mind you, no word about the TLS4 was said yet. A ton of top level players suddenly had to show up and actually play more than one tournament. I somewhat doubt that it'll be the case though, if it would, it'd be really stupid for everyone involved. I really wouldn't want to be the person to call the shots here lol.
EPT
