On July 30 2015 03:39 BigFan wrote: I have to agree with falling. This tournament will either help increase the activity of the foreign scene or keep it the same and will in no way contribute to the scene's death.
However, making statements like "our intention is to raise foreign bw" dont appear neutral, as you and falling may see. No results in this means failiure. And making decisions that you know will hinder foreigneer players activity is also not neutral. Its not killing anything, its just stoping IT to rise and grow, while saying that the rise is the primary target of the event. Knowing what tls 1-2-3 was, people have expectations for great championship that tls 4 should be, and it can be, if you give the players what they want. Because they are the ones who make the show(plus the commentators) you must assure their best comfort. I wouldnt be posting this if the tournament was called rus_brain cup or something, its TLS we talking about and without them is like kespa bw without the star players.
and without them is like kespa bw without the star players.
Without Scan it is like OSL but Flash is excluded, becasue he is "too good"
Hi there mr cele,im going to explain you few points that u arent taking in consideration.
this is how progamers train,is not only about play the game just for fun,there are coaches and players to keep improving and fixing mistakes.why im saying this ? cuz happens i have the perfect example for you,my friend LancerX plays this game since 1997 beta and many would say he is bad if we compare the time he is been playing,but actually this is the case of a player that plays for fun that actually is somewhat good in the game.
Now this is how good players are made,training many hours x day and coaches helping them,But there is the exception of few of them that are somehow brilliants and put more effort than the rest in the practise room(Jaedong,Flash,Fantasy,Jangbi;Stork etc etc)
The skill was very high,every detail was important and playing in TV games for Flash was always one advantage compared to the rest.They were good in the practise rooms but no in the scenary.
talking about Idra and Nony,they were training in estro and Cj at some point,but that was it,they were playing,even if super daniel was good in english i watched some of his cast and he doesnt look like someone that really could help them,now this is mistery for me and maybe im speaking to much but i doubt he was present 12 hours of the day to traslate them in the room the advices of others,and from some interviews it looks like koreans are actually somehow very selfish and dont help foreigners that much,so this could explain why the improvement of Idra and Nony wasnt that big,(language barriers).
Now we have Scan,born in the Korean culture,he discover bw in the korean culture,he was already good in TSL 2 ? im not sure about that but he got banned there for sell matches.from my point of view Scan improved progressively like any other could if they were born in Korea and speaking with high skill players in korean,he is traning with pros and discusing with them about strategy.now lets take a look to the rest of us,do we have some progamers to help us ? do we speak korean?do our skill lvl is close to semiprogamers? no even close.but on top of that as Julia mentioned Scan play more games with offraces than us with our main,so he is actually better than most of us with offraces.and Scan can tell all what he wants he doesnt play that much,but i saw him playing 24 hours non stop,and streaming more than 16 hours very often.As u see this is the train regimen of a Korean progamer and one culture system.
TLC had the perfect boost to help the foreign scene to be powered,now ofcourse is to early to talk and only numbers will tell, afterall this weekend gonna just the second tournament,but u can see the reaction and how many players already pulled up.for me this is not helping us the players,maybe with the stream numbers is helping the global supporters,and this could be good ofc,but as i said before there is not point in train for a tournament where a high skill player like scan that should be playing in SSL is playing in TLC cups,
On July 30 2015 03:39 BigFan wrote: I have to agree with falling. This tournament will either help increase the activity of the foreign scene or keep it the same and will in no way contribute to the scene's death.
Wrong. It could actually hurt the scene. Showing the community that the only thing they have to look forward to is poorly run tournaments by the few organizers and sponsors left in the scene just helps to discourage players and reinforce the thought that there is little point to train hard and try to get better.
this is how progamers train,is not only about play the game just for fun,there are coaches and players to keep improving and fixing mistakes.why im saying this ? cuz happens i have the perfect example for you,my friend LancerX plays this game since 1997 beta and many would say he is bad if we compare the time he is been playing,but actually this is the case of a player that plays for fun that actually is somewhat good in the game.
Now this is how good players are made,training many hours x day and coaches helping them,But there is the exception of few of them that are somehow brilliants and put more effort than the rest in the practise room(Jaedong,Flash,Fantasy,Jangbi;Stork etc etc)
The skill was very high,every detail was important and playing in TV games for Flash was always one advantage compared to the rest.They were good in the practise rooms but no in the scenary.
talking about Idra and Nony,they were training in estro and Cj at some point,but that was it,they were playing,even if super daniel was good in english i watched some of his cast and he doesnt look like someone that really could help them,now this is mistery for me and maybe im speaking to much but i doubt he was present 12 hours of the day to traslate them in the room the advices of others,and from some interviews it looks like koreans are actually somehow very selfish and dont help foreigners that much,so this could explain why the improvement of Idra and Nony wasnt that big,(language barriers).
Now we have Scan,born in the Korean culture,he discover bw in the korean culture,he was already good in TSL 2 ? im not sure about that but he got banned there for sell matches.from my point of view Scan improved progressively like any other could if they were born in Korea and speaking with high skill players in korean,he is traning with pros and discusing with them about strategy.
Hi Mr Eonzerg. That's an inetersting post. But of course yes i know about the progamer training regiment. Im aware too that Idra/Nony/Ret don't fall under the same category. They never developed that level of play. You say because they didn't speak korean and had no chance to talk with other players in the house about their games and strategy? That sounds plausible.
I also agree on the advantage Scan has:
On July 30 2015 07:39 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Now we have Scan,born in the Korean culture,he discover bw in the korean culture,he was already good in TSL 2 ? im not sure about that but he got banned there for sell matches.from my point of view Scan improved progressively like any other could if they were born in Korea and speaking with high skill players in korean,he is traning with pros and discusing with them about strategy.
you sum it up pretty good. I understand your frustration, i really do. But then, i ask you, can you really ban a player from a Starleague (highest level of competition, just because he is too good?
Because that's what it comes down to. This whole argument is not about if scan is korean, or scan talks to much with progamers, or whatnot. it's an argument about skill. If you ban him from TLS cause he is too good, that means TLS Championship is worth nothing. Who wants to see a Starleague where the 2nd best wins? Who wants to play in the biggest foreign BW Tour since 2013 and win, and be 2nd best? I don't think that's where we want to go.
you take away everything a top level competition stands for. It's like D/C Ranks Tour then, of course level of play is much higher, but the idea is the same.
People are still arguing? Jeez.. Not only that. Why do people think I play 16 hours a day? Very ugly statement. Really. I wonder if people actually know how to bring facts and prove it with some evidence. 0 evidence, just talk...
On July 30 2015 09:34 LaStScan wrote: People are still arguing? Jeez.. Not only that. Why do people think I play 16 hours a day? Very ugly statement. Really. I wonder if people actually know how to bring facts and prove it with some evidence. 0 evidence, just talk...
I'm just curious to know,
Is it true that you've played in Korean leagues (the closest thing to pro leagues since SC2)?
Is it true that you are practice partners with professional Korean Starcraft players?
Is it true that you're miles above the competition and have acquired most of this skill level by playing in the Korean starcraft scene?
If so... What difference does that one argument make if all of the other ones are valid?
To be clear - I'm not making an argument of whether or not you should be able to play, I just don't feel like this particular defense makes sense if the main points that people are concerned about are true.
On July 30 2015 09:23 Cele wrote: you sum it up pretty good. I understand your frustration, i really do. But then, i ask you, can you really ban a player from a Starleague (highest level of competition, just because he is too good?
If we consider every other sport, then the answer to that question is pretty obviously yes. There are amateur, semi-pro, and pro leagues for many sports so that players with different abilities, coaching, and training regimens can remain competitive.
Because that's what it comes down to. This whole argument is not about if scan is korean, or scan talks to much with progamers, or whatnot. it's an argument about skill. If you ban him from TLS cause he is too good, that means TLS Championship is worth nothing.
This is absolutely not true. TLS is about who the best foreigner is- not the best in the world (that's the SSL's job). Everyone recognizes there are different levels of skill (which is why even the Chinese scene with a far more organized training structure than any other non-Korean scene made that offracing rule for Korean ex-pros in the C-OSL). Aside from the fact that Scan is Korean and not a foreigner, it's unquestionable that Scan is on a completely different level from any player in the foreign scene- he's even commented on stream that he's happy playing at a semipro level. I don't think its unfair to let the foreigners have their tournament since Scan has access to the many smaller semi-pro, ex-pro and clan league Korean tournaments that foreigners aren't able to participate in even if they had high enough skill.
On July 30 2015 09:34 LaStScan wrote: People are still arguing? Jeez.. Not only that. Why do people think I play 16 hours a day? Very ugly statement. Really. I wonder if people actually know how to bring facts and prove it with some evidence. 0 evidence, just talk...
lol Scan why do you refute the most miniscule things, but ignore the big issues? Eon is right. Why are you playing in TLC for easy money when you should be in SSL? >_<
this is how progamers train,is not only about play the game just for fun,there are coaches and players to keep improving and fixing mistakes.why im saying this ? cuz happens i have the perfect example for you,my friend LancerX plays this game since 1997 beta and many would say he is bad if we compare the time he is been playing,but actually this is the case of a player that plays for fun that actually is somewhat good in the game.
Now this is how good players are made,training many hours x day and coaches helping them,But there is the exception of few of them that are somehow brilliants and put more effort than the rest in the practise room(Jaedong,Flash,Fantasy,Jangbi;Stork etc etc)
The skill was very high,every detail was important and playing in TV games for Flash was always one advantage compared to the rest.They were good in the practise rooms but no in the scenary.
talking about Idra and Nony,they were training in estro and Cj at some point,but that was it,they were playing,even if super daniel was good in english i watched some of his cast and he doesnt look like someone that really could help them,now this is mistery for me and maybe im speaking to much but i doubt he was present 12 hours of the day to traslate them in the room the advices of others,and from some interviews it looks like koreans are actually somehow very selfish and dont help foreigners that much,so this could explain why the improvement of Idra and Nony wasnt that big,(language barriers).
Now we have Scan,born in the Korean culture,he discover bw in the korean culture,he was already good in TSL 2 ? im not sure about that but he got banned there for sell matches.from my point of view Scan improved progressively like any other could if they were born in Korea and speaking with high skill players in korean,he is traning with pros and discusing with them about strategy.
Hi Mr Eonzerg. That's an inetersting post. But of course yes i know about the progamer training regiment. Im aware too that Idra/Nony/Ret don't fall under the same category. They never developed that level of play. You say because they didn't speak korean and had no chance to talk with other players in the house about their games and strategy? That sounds plausible.
On July 30 2015 07:39 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Now we have Scan,born in the Korean culture,he discover bw in the korean culture,he was already good in TSL 2 ? im not sure about that but he got banned there for sell matches.from my point of view Scan improved progressively like any other could if they were born in Korea and speaking with high skill players in korean,he is traning with pros and discusing with them about strategy.
you sum it up pretty good. I understand your frustration, i really do. But then, i ask you, can you really ban a player from a Starleague (highest level of competition, just because he is too good?
Because that's what it comes down to. This whole argument is not about if scan is korean, or scan talks to much with progamers, or whatnot. it's an argument about skill. If you ban him from TLS cause he is too good, that means TLS Championship is worth nothing. Who wants to see a Starleague where the 2nd best wins? Who wants to play in the biggest foreign BW Tour since 2013 and win, and be 2nd best? I don't think that's where we want to go.
you take away everything a top level competition stands for. It's like D/C Ranks Tour then, of course level of play is much higher, but the idea is the same.
Wow dude, just wow.
He is Korean.
Not a foreigner.
There is no other information needed, everything else is VOID.
I thank you all for the continuous feedback and comments. As mentioned many times by 2pac and others, we are not averse to making changes as needed, however, until we have further data on the current state of affairs, we will only be making minor changes such as changing maps ...
Also, I've seen several people confusing TLS and TLC in their posts. Please do realize that aside from the TLS announcement which had the prizepool and date, we have not provided any information pertaining to the seeding, player pool, rules, maps etc... In other words, there's no reason to speculate on TLS. Furthermore, do note that TLC is separate from TLS.
Ok good to know BigFan. However on the scan issue my thoughts are the same for both TLC and TLS. It seems my post on page 22
lol? yeah it can, he competed in the korean pro scene, the srt is evidence of it, end of story. You repeatedly say that if he "starts" participating in the korean pro scene you would reconsider, and then ignore solid evidence that he already has...wtf more do you want? And on top of that, you also ignored the part where I mentioned he claims to have been a b-team practice partner at age 11, so thats two instances of him participating in the korean pro scene.
hasnt gotten any acknowledgement, where i quite clearly provide evidence that, if the TL staff kept to their word, they would use to "reconsider" which I suppose could just mean briefly think about it and then not change anything, but I guess Ive got to have more faith in TL than that. I agree with the majority of what technics, eonzerg, G5, f10eqq and ggzerg are saying. Im not going to post anymore on the scan subject, ive already said my opinion several times and the TL staff should be reading and doing something about it eventually.
edit: Also fuck having series handicaps or scan being forced to play offrace or whatever other compromises were suggested earlier, if he has to do that he obviously doesnt belong in the tournament. playing vs a handicapped or offracing player is bullshit, I agree completely with bakuryu that id rather get 4-0d than play vs handicap. handicaps are there to try and neutralize some kind of unfair advantage, (scan being korean, playing in korean leagues etc) where there shouldnt be one in the first place, and its got nothing to do with skill. We dont see people suggesting sziky be handicapped, because he doesnt have an unfair advantage, he has a fair advantage and its his right to play in foreigner leagues and capitalize on the advantage he has gained from the same ground as any other foreigner.
As well, whoever suggested that having newer maps is going to help foreigners over scan, I very much disagree. When youre better at bw than everyone else around you, youre also better at analyzing maps and knowing how to exploit imbalances or remain safe to cheesy shit. Scan is versatile enough to play all 3 races and every matchup, hes not going to be stumped by some map gimmick.
And finally, TLS/TLC is not going to kill foreigner bw, but allowing scan to play in both of them is cutting short their potential to actually be really great foreign tournaments and do a shitload of good. On the surface, it looks amazing when you see a generous sponsor is willing to fund weekly tournaments for 5 whole fucking months, and then a really big one (comparatively to what weve had since sc2 came out, i think its the biggest yet?), and I love rus_brain for doing it. But when you also take in the fact that this was advertised since TLS1 as the championship, the final one where all the top finishers would compete for the biggest prize yet, etc etc, and then it gets delayed and delayed and people lose hope and stop playing or even thinking about bw, and then suddenly here we are, its amazing but at the same time its tainted because theres one korean who wasnt in any of the first 3, whos probably just going to win everything. Thats not what was promised, and it feels like it couldve been so much more.
FyRe_DragOn, I could be mistaken, but, I believe 2pac or another staff member might've touched on that in a previous post. I'm not sure on what page the comment is on though if it was indeed mentioned.
On July 30 2015 11:44 BigFan wrote: I thank you all for the continuous feedback and comments. As mentioned many times by 2pac and others, we are not averse to making changes as needed, however, until we have further data on the current state of affairs, we will only be making minor changes such as changing maps ...
Also, I've seen several people confusing TLS and TLC in their posts. Please do realize that aside from the TLS announcement which had the prizepool and date, we have not provided any information pertaining to the seeding, player pool, rules, maps etc... In other words, there's no reason to speculate on TLS. Furthermore, do note that TLC is separate from TLS.
How much data do you need? A lot of real foreigners (whom you were supposed to support) are pissed and or unmotivated. You can not possibly be ignorant about that
Letting scan in or out has nothing to do with discrimination. It's like giving a scholarship for American Indians (or another unprivileged minority) to a male white protestant.
I hope you understand how absurd that sounds because the foreigners are like the metaphorical American Indians. No matter how much a white American male protestant has help the native Americans, a native American scholarship should never be given to him. And there should be absolutely no hard feelings for excluding him from the scholarship.
If you really want something more concrete just make a poll and put it in the op and you'll have your data.
I'm not even playing and I agree with g5 eon and others because it is simply too easy to sympathize with them.
I don't intend to insult anyone but I hope you understand that if you intend to do a service to the community you have to put your ego aside and listen to new information and put aside your "thorough discussions" because obviously you did not understand the community well.
Please don't say that a poll won't be a good form of data collection because it is exactly what is needed if you really want data.
And do it now please if you really care about the community more than your ego. In reality you will only get an ego boost if you care about the community because you will be happy to see them happy.
In the end no one really cares whether ego play a part as long as the correct decision is made and it starts with a poll (or something equivalent) and keep it open.
EPT
