EPT
[SPL] KT Rolster vs Hwaseung OZ - Page 29
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4vvhiplash7
South Africa392 Posts
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WaterTower
France138 Posts
On June 15 2011 15:12 Winechu wrote: Really tough loss to stomach. No way KT is winning PL this year. These guys need to shape up. Stats and CH need to be more consistent. Action and Tempest need to stop failing. Flash needs to turn on his godmode. The rookies need to improve quickly and do their part. Whatever happened to winning it all for Violet? :/ No resolve in their play at all. Agreed completely. And the coach needs to start locking players in rooms again to force them to play. KT is crap this year. Never thought they could suck so bad. The rookies are not improving and Crazy-Hydra, one of the only real hopes for the team was nothing more than a flop. They dont have any good players except Flash and even he can't save the team. Aside from that, I feel very happy for JD despite my usual support for Flash. Hopefully, this will make him come out of the slump. | ||
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trexbqs
Malaysia1731 Posts
by the way, congrats OZ. | ||
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_Quasar_
Russian Federation4405 Posts
To fuck up one moment you don't actually need to be in slump. If you constantly lose games because of overall poor play, then you slump. But this was not Jaedong's case I think.I watched his game vs. ggaemo - he really almost won it and then threw it away by not killing 150 hp hatchery. That's quite painful to watch or to do, but it's just a bad mood / luck (a bad luck to be in bad mood lolol), but not overall dropped level of skill I think. So I don't doubt that he'll continue to be good. Maybe he can care a bit less about team finally? If he already done so, and it's because of it that they started to play well, then it's awesome. | ||
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Ryusei-R1
United States2106 Posts
Oz finally wins. I'm so happy now. | ||
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Pangpootata
1838 Posts
IMO Flash needs to stop over-mind-gaming with jaedong. He tried to deny a third when jaedong decides to do a timing attack off two bases, and catches him with his army out of base. | ||
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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
always believe! looks like CJ will be the biggest contender for number 1 | ||
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Jakalo
Latvia2350 Posts
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tbrown47
United States1235 Posts
On June 15 2011 15:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Then you're just being pedantic and don't get how TvZ works. This particular attack WAS all in because if the attack does not work then Flash has a complete mnm force roaming the map and zerg can do nothing to win in this situation -- you don't produce enough units on that economy with only 3 hatches to beat even one control group of MnM. From there you just die once the terran decides to make a tank, because the only thing to stop terran from killing your nat is the 3 lurkers you could bother to afford to defend it. There is no conceivable scenario where if that attack does not win the game that Flash doesn't win. This is not always the case with cheeses, but atleast in this scenario it was all in. Unless you want to declassify it as a non-allin because if it failed and Flash decided to just stop playing, took his hands off his mouse and keyboard, and let Jaedong do whatever he wants then yes Jaedong could've gotten back in the game. I don't live in a fantasy world. There is no conceivable scenario where if that attack does not win the game that Flash doesn't win. Really, you sure about that? This particular attack WAS all in because if the attack does not work then Flash has a complete mnm force roaming the map No, Jaedong killed it all during his attack, along with like 20 SCVS. Unless you want to declassify it as a non-allin because if it failed and Flash decided to just stop playing, took his hands off his mouse and keyboard, and let Jaedong do whatever he wants then yes Jaedong could've gotten back in the game. I don't live in a fantasy world Try not to sound so condescending in your posts, now you just sound like an arrogant jackass who doesn't know what the term "all-in" means. In Starcraft there is ALWAYS the chance that a middle ground can be struck. There are always 3 sections to an "all-in" attack in Starcraft doesnt do enough damage, loses does just enough damage to break even does more than enough damage, wins That isn't an all-in, there are so many things that can still happen if it just crosses the "break even" threshold or is just under it. All-in doesn't mean "maybe win now or maybe lose now or break even." It means win or lose. | ||
blahz0r
3030 Posts
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Scaramanga
Australia8092 Posts
On June 15 2011 15:29 WaterTower wrote: Agreed completely. And the coach needs to start locking players in rooms again to force them to play. KT is crap this year. Never thought they could suck so bad. The rookies are not improving and Crazy-Hydra, one of the only real hopes for the team was nothing more than a flop. They dont have any good players except Flash and even he can't save the team. Aside from that, I feel very happy for JD despite my usual support for Flash. Hopefully, this will make him come out of the slump. And you guys call yourselves KT fans. Please go and look how KT has traveled over the year and then make these statements again. | ||
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WaterTower
France138 Posts
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dRaW
Canada5744 Posts
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Tsutchie
Australia951 Posts
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KTF_CloaK
Netherlands1338 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
Nice to see Jaedong winning for once. http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=118208&db=Global&cate=&page=1&field=&kwrd= | ||
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Winechu
Singapore1186 Posts
On June 15 2011 15:42 Scaramanga wrote: And you guys call yourselves KT fans. Please go and look how KT has traveled over the year and then make these statements again. I'll stand by what I said. They knew they had to win all the remaining matches to even try to catch second place, and they go ahead and lose to ACE and OZ. That's not a sign of a championship calibre team. It is true that Stats and CH need to be more consistent; on their day they can play great starcraft, but when they're not they lose to thrash like Soo and S2. That's not acceptable at all, considering what they're capable of. I'm not bashing them either, but their performance leaves much to be desired. I'm not going to even mention Action and Tempest. I like them a lot, but they're going to need to have at least a 50% for KT to even stand a chance in the post-season. All of these players are capable of playing great starcraft, but they're just not doing it. As a fan I just can't help but feel exasperated. I'll keep cheering them on nonetheless, but it pains me to see players like Stats and Action not fulfill their potential. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On June 15 2011 15:39 tbrown47 wrote: Really, you sure about that? No, Jaedong killed it all during his attack, along with like 20 SCVS. Yes, this is why it worked. See, if it didn't work it's because Flash had units leftover. This is why Jaedong is dead if it does not work. This is a one or the other scenario, there's no middle ground here. Try not to sound so condescending in your posts, now you just sound like an arrogant jackass who doesn't know what the term "all-in" means. In Starcraft there is ALWAYS the chance that a middle ground can be struck. There are always 3 sections to an "all-in" attack in Starcraft doesnt do enough damage, loses does just enough damage to break even does more than enough damage, wins That isn't an all-in, there are so many things that can still happen if it just crosses the "break even" threshold or is just under it. All-in doesn't mean "maybe win now or maybe lose now or break even." It means win or lose. You don't seem to get that there's no "break even" in this scenario. You have done absolutely no analysis of the match itself and have just repeated ad nausem that they could "break even." Repeating it without explanation doesn't mean anything. The only reason I'm arguing with you is because you're wrong in this particular situation and won't actually talk about anything that happened in the game to prove otherwise. There's a specific difference in midgame allins and early game cheese that you're having a hard time grasping. Your argument seems entirely rooted in how early game cheeses rarely break even because neither player has the combat unit production capability to capitalize on the situation, which isn't how midgame cheeses work out. How do they break even, Jaedong kills every unit flash has but loses all his mutas to turrets and even kills enough scvs to make the economy's perfectly even? Then Jaedong kills him with lurkers because Flash has no units. Flash fends of the units with enough army left to fend off a lurker attack and does enough economy damage? Then he wins because Jaedong has only 3 hatches and like 20 drones and Zerg cannot stop the terran from outmacroing him on two bases -- because he only has 3 hatcheries. You just repeat breaking even when there's no break even situation here. There's no way that Jaedong could've continued the game unless his mutaling and followup lurkers did not do enough damage to beat Flash. It's just how TvZ works when zerg does 3 hatch all ins. I sound like an arrogant asshole because I'm taking the time to actually detail to you why I consider this particular cheese an all in. It wasn't some scenario like where a zerg 5 pools and leaves the terran with 5 scvs and 2 marines in a bunker and they just start making workers and expanding from there. The tech was too high and the Terran already had 2 command centers and a high number of production facilities. In any situation where the terran fends of the attack and isn't too crippled to GG anyhow they will win, assuming they do not just stop playing as I said. And frankly, your whole spiel on how people shouldn't call it an "all-in," or any other cheese all-in is absolutely, unambiguously pedantic. It's like the people who get onto folks who use "literally" for emphasis and whatnot. In most situations you're technically right, but it's dumb to try to get people to stop saying it just because you don't like the insinuation that it somehow lessens Jaedong's win to call it an all-in. Do you want people to just start calling it cheese, which has an even worse connotation, just because you have a hard-on for strict, literal interpretations on a forum where we post 3 straight pages of bouncing rainbow sheep? The only reason I'm arguing with you is because I believe you're wrong in this particular situation and won't actually talk about anything that happened in the game to prove otherwise. There's a specific difference in midgame allins and early game cheese that you're having a hard time grasping. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7851 Posts
On June 15 2011 15:42 Scaramanga wrote: And you guys call yourselves KT fans. Please go and look how KT has traveled over the year and then make these statements again. It's nothing about being a fan. You can recognize when your team is flailing. There was alot of talk in interviews about how hard the team was preparing for round 6 and specifically their match vs SKT and yet they ended up playing very uninspired. Last season even before KT was seeded into the finals I could feel that they had a very good chance of winning it all (I felt it was a given, but I'm a fan so I'm biased.) I think KT can still step it up but it's not looking good and I wouldn't be surprised to see them go down before the finals to both SKT and CJ at this point if they insist in continuing to play this way. No one is saying KT has had a bad 2010-2011 PL season. They destroyed winners league until the finals, they picked up Crazy Hydra and Action who are both solid players and put up results ENOUGH *imo*, Stats is still a PvP beast... there's alot to be hopeful for, but there's alot that a passionate fan can criticize. I say that as someone who enjoys watching KT and teamleagues more than watching Flash my favorite player. | ||
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tbrown47
United States1235 Posts
On June 15 2011 16:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Yes, this is why it worked. See, if it didn't work it's because Flash had units leftover. This is why Jaedong is dead if it does not work. This is a one or the other scenario, there's no middle ground here. You don't seem to get that there's no "break even" in this scenario. You have done absolutely no analysis of the match itself and have just repeated ad nausem that they could "break even." Repeating it without explanation doesn't mean anything. The only reason I'm arguing with you is because you're wrong in this particular situation and won't actually talk about anything that happened in the game to prove otherwise. There's a specific difference in midgame allins and early game cheese that you're having a hard time grasping. Your argument seems entirely rooted in how early game cheeses rarely break even because neither player has the combat unit production capability to capitalize on the situation, which isn't how midgame cheeses work out. How do they break even, Jaedong kills every unit flash has but loses all his mutas to turrets and even kills enough scvs to make the economy's perfectly even? Then Jaedong kills him with lurkers because Flash has no units. Flash fends of the units with enough army left to fend off a lurker attack and does enough economy damage? Then he wins because Jaedong has only 3 hatches and like 20 drones and Zerg cannot stop the terran from outmacroing him on two bases -- because he only has 3 hatcheries. You just repeat breaking even when there's no break even situation here. There's no way that Jaedong could've continued the game unless his mutaling and followup lurkers did not do enough damage to beat Flash. It's just how TvZ works when zerg does 3 hatch all ins. I sound like an arrogant asshole because I'm taking the time to actually detail to you why I consider this particular cheese an all in. It wasn't some scenario like where a zerg 5 pools and leaves the terran with 5 scvs and 2 marines in a bunker and they just start making workers and expanding from there. The tech was too high and the Terran already had 2 command centers and a high number of production facilities. In any situation where the terran fends of the attack and isn't too crippled to GG anyhow they will win, assuming they do not just stop playing as I said. And frankly, your whole spiel on how people shouldn't call it an "all-in," or any other cheese all-in is absolutely, unambiguously pedantic. It's like the people who get onto folks who use "literally" for emphasis and whatnot. In most situations you're technically right, but it's dumb to try to get people to stop saying it just because you don't like the insinuation that it somehow lessens Jaedong's win to call it an all-in. Do you want people to just start calling it cheese, which has an even worse connotation, just because you have a hard-on for strict, literal interpretations on a forum where we post 3 straight pages of bouncing rainbow sheep? The only reason I'm arguing with you is because I believe you're wrong in this particular situation and won't actually talk about anything that happened in the game to prove otherwise. There's a specific difference in midgame allins and early game cheese that you're having a hard time grasping. Frankly, I highly doubt you have enough knowledge of this game to flat out claim there is no "break even" scenario in this particular situation. You aren't explaining "in detail" anything about this particular game, by the way. The two paragraphs in this gigantic response that actually analyze the game are so narrow-minded that it doesn't even begin to describe the range of possibilities that could've happened. You explain like 3 plausible situations whereas you leave out infinity more. Jaedong mismicros and loses his lurkers? Flash loses forces to stop lurkers that turns the game around and he loses the advantage he has after the "all-in" attack because of it. You are playing poker, you need a queen to win, so its either queen and win or something else and lose. Two choices, thats it. In Starcraft you can micro a Jack into a queen and still pull it off, or make someone else lose their straight. It's just stupid, because like you admitted, all-in HAS a negative connotation to it, it is also wrong in every regard, as you admit also. You know what pedantic means, right? You are agreeing that it is used incorrectly, but don't think its worth arguing. As for the reason you're arguing (this situation only had 2 outcomes thus qualifying it as an all-in) first of all, I strongly disagree, as would many more. Secondly, you don't have the game knowledge to make that call in the first place. Or maybe you are Jaedong or Flash or Bisu or a Professional Starcraft Coach on the TL forums arguing with some no-name. But probably not. | ||
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