Lomo irradiates the defiler at CH's 4th and kills the 3 lurkers. Lomo threatens the hatch, but another defiler and some lurkers arrive. Lomo kills a few drones as a consolation prize.
so painful to watch. Lomo used to actually pull off some random wins and sparks of brilliance... but he manages to make TvZ look so imba in the opposite direction.
Lomo could have a billion more mines than he does with the amount of vulture suicide going on. And then his third might not die to a control group of hydras.
Also, best doomdrop ever : defiler, lurker, and 2 lings.
Game was fine. Lomo played from behind all game, then losing the 2 tanks seriously weakened his midgame. Vulture raids could have easily turned that around, or CH making an error and getting his 4th sniped.
Also, dat plagues. Those muta balls must have been plagued at least 3 times each, basically nullifying them for a looong time. Killer's mass spores in his base paid off in the end lol, as Action had to go through so many buildings hahaha
Action looks like his dreams just got destroyed. It was an entertaining zvz, a shame he lost. I was hoping he would win, as he has won so few games this season.
pair of lings made to remove the scv from the main Overlord reaches Flash's main Acadamy in construction
3 marines sitting at the nat guarding the entrance Flash sending a second scv after the first was dismantled by lings 3rd hatch added inside main, JD teching to lair
wtfff lol i feel liek this game was like the last time jd beat flash again -_- flash making stupid mistake and leaving nothing at home to defend mutas wtf hahah only liek 5 marines, 2 turrets?
I think my theory is going to be that Jaedong isn't actually in a slump. It's just that after losing three finals in a row, he's done nothing but practice his vT for the last six months and this is the result.
i love jd but it seemed almost as if flash kind of lost on purpose.. it seems he too needs someone to dominate him. it is lonely at the top - flash feels this, annihilating everyone. jaedong is his way to know that he too is beaten, so he makes slight mistakes to feel secure in someone being his guardian. someone watching over him,
On June 15 2011 14:29 xarthaz wrote: i love jd but it seemed almost as if flash kind of lost on purpose.. it seems he too needs someone to dominate him. it is lonely at the top - flash feels this, annihilating everyone. jaedong is his way to know that he too is beaten, so he makes slight mistakes to feel secure in someone being his guardian. someone watching over him,
On June 15 2011 14:29 Vasoline73 wrote: Sigh the sheep are so annoying -__________-. Anyways let's do it KT! Also glad that people will shut up about taking JD off the powerrank now..
But JD is still on the power rank, no? I'm misinterpreting something here...
On June 15 2011 14:29 Vasoline73 wrote: Sigh the sheep are so annoying -__________-. Anyways let's do it KT! Also glad that people will shut up about taking JD off the powerrank now..
But JD is still on the power rank, no? I'm misinterpreting something here...
On June 15 2011 14:29 Vasoline73 wrote: Sigh the sheep are so annoying -__________-. Anyways let's do it KT! Also glad that people will shut up about taking JD off the powerrank now..
But JD is still on the power rank, no? I'm misinterpreting something here...
In the discussion for next month's power rank, they are talking about taking JD off.
On June 15 2011 14:29 Vasoline73 wrote: Sigh the sheep are so annoying -__________-. Anyways let's do it KT! Also glad that people will shut up about taking JD off the powerrank now..
But JD is still on the power rank, no? I'm misinterpreting something here...
People were talking about how he won't be on the next power rank. This will stop all that Hope he receives a massive boost from this win. Go JD!
On June 15 2011 14:29 Vasoline73 wrote: Sigh the sheep are so annoying -__________-. Anyways let's do it KT! Also glad that people will shut up about taking JD off the powerrank now..
But JD is still on the power rank, no? I'm misinterpreting something here...
Yeah but there's people arguing he shouldn't be there next month.. which imo even without this win against Flash is ridiculous. People need to reward consistency. It was only like a month ago JD 2-0'ed out of the group of death...
On June 15 2011 14:29 Vasoline73 wrote: Sigh the sheep are so annoying -__________-. Anyways let's do it KT! Also glad that people will shut up about taking JD off the powerrank now..
But JD is still on the power rank, no? I'm misinterpreting something here...
In the discussion for next month's power rank, they are talking about taking JD off.
Ah okay. I just read the PRs and not the discussions :x
On June 15 2011 14:29 Vasoline73 wrote: Sigh the sheep are so annoying -__________-. Anyways let's do it KT! Also glad that people will shut up about taking JD off the powerrank now..
If he doesn't win some more games he will be off the next PR anyways.
On June 15 2011 14:29 Vasoline73 wrote: Sigh the sheep are so annoying -__________-. Anyways let's do it KT! Also glad that people will shut up about taking JD off the powerrank now..
But JD is still on the power rank, no? I'm misinterpreting something here...
I think people want him off because of 5 game losing streak or w/e.
you say he was good in shape, flash clearly messed up big time, perhaps after the mutas attack we would see if jaedong really is up to the task against flash i hoped a long macro game and all i get is this all in muta crap.
On June 15 2011 14:28 iLoveKT wrote: what the hell was that at 9 flash...
probably expected the standard build but jaedong played smart, he knew flash will do this and that he cant defend the 2nd expo, thus he sacrificed expo for a timed attack, making use of the fact that with the army out, flash will have less units to defend in the main
On June 15 2011 14:33 champignones wrote: you say he was good in shape, flash clearly messed up big time, perhaps after the mutas attack we would see if jaedong really is up to the task against flash i hoped a long macro game and all i get is this all in muta crap.
Blame flash for making a bunker and trying to stop jaedong from getting a third.
On June 15 2011 14:27 Mumei wrote: I think my theory is going to be that Jaedong isn't actually in a slump. It's just that after losing three finals in a row, he's done nothing but practice his vT for the last six months and this is the result.
i think Flash misread the early lings from JD. Most of the time, early lings mean early 3rd and 4th. Unfortunately, JD went for 2 base timing attack so... and Flash kind of forced jaedong to timing attack, yet flash had nothing at the nat.
Wait. I see what JD did there. He didn't like Flash having such a high ELO. So, the Overmind hatched a devious plan. First, go into a slump and lose ELO like mad. Then bet Flash and *BAM* Flash's ELO goes down.
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from jaedong when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt.
On June 15 2011 14:36 champignones wrote: its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from flash when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt.
tell me when flash stops making mistakes so that jaedong doesn't have to kill him early, then we can have a good zvt
On June 15 2011 14:28 iLoveKT wrote: what the hell was that at 9 flash...
probably expected the standard build but jaedong played smart, he knew flash will do this and that he cant defend the 2nd expo, thus he sacrificed expo for a timed attack, making use of the fact that with the army out, flash will have less units to defend in the main
Yes I agree, JD definitely won the mind-games battle this time. Even if the game itself isn't that awesome, it's always awesome to see these two play because they have played each other so many times and they each know the other's style so well.
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
On June 15 2011 14:28 iLoveKT wrote: what the hell was that at 9 flash...
probably expected the standard build but jaedong played smart, he knew flash will do this and that he cant defend the 2nd expo, thus he sacrificed expo for a timed attack, making use of the fact that with the army out, flash will have less units to defend in the main
Well stated Sir. Flash kinda got ahead of himself, and got overagressive. I was waiting for somebody to break Flash's 14cc after scout build, and it looks like JD managed to do just that.
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO
Definitely all-in. 14cc vs. forced to mass two groups of lings, 2 sunkens, and no third? Definitely all-in :3
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO
2 base, all larve went into mutaling and how many zergling was made in the early game? that doesn't count as an all in to you?
On June 15 2011 14:36 champignones wrote: its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from flash when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt.
tell me when flash stops making mistakes so that jaedong doesn't have to kill him early, then we can have a good zvt
this only proves flash messed up big time and thats it, jd will gain my respect again when he win flash in a BO5 in a league final or semifinal ,but i promise you he will lose as he always do against flash.
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO
Definitely all-in. 14cc vs. forced to mass two groups of lings, 2 sunkens, and no third? Definitely all-in :3
On June 15 2011 14:36 champignones wrote: its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from jaedong when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt.
You know, there were 3 MSLs where Jaedong attempted to beat Flash in lategame. Jaedong won the first time and then Flash decided to 14CC and go for timing attacks in the next 2 MSLs and avoid playing Jaedong lategame.
Also, how is it Jaedong's fault if Flash can't survive mutaling aggression from a 3 hatch opening? LOL
Hiya going rax expand Stats is building a nex at the inner SE expo, that's new he has a gate up, warping in a core now
scv arrives inside main and see's nothing but gate and core zealot out to deal with the scout Hiya building a bunker at his nat, factory going up, he must be thinking something's up
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO
Definitely all-in. 14cc vs. forced to mass two groups of lings, 2 sunkens, and no third? Definitely all-in :3
wouldn't be enough to call it all-in, tbh
If that attack did anything less than kill like 20 SCVs and a bazillion marines, Jaedong would've lost :3 Pretty all-in ;o
Stats taking his 3rd at his nat now, robo warping in zealot attacking the temple overlooking his nat 2nd factory in the making, shop added to the first factory lone dragoon headed up to Hiya's nat, sits outside of bunker range waiting for the core to finish that range upgrade
shop spinning, first tank is out Stats warps in 3 more gates (4) Hiya adding another 2 factories (4) stats getting another gate bringing it to a total of 5 now
On June 15 2011 14:44 Hero.SP wrote: game blackouts. Some kind of cheese =D
No. not cheese. Once you are up to two bases each, it pretty much rules out the word cheese.
two base carrier
Stats cannot possibly defend this push, he doesn't have zealot speed which will fuck him over. He has speed now, he might be able to defend it, but hes far far behind.
On June 15 2011 14:36 champignones wrote: its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from flash when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt.
tell me when flash stops making mistakes so that jaedong doesn't have to kill him early, then we can have a good zvt
this only proves flash messed up big time and thats it, jd will gain my respect again when he win flash in a BO5 in a league final or semifinal ,but i promise you he will lose as he always do against flash.
well he's not going to let flash get away with 14 cc, and being super greedy like he was. That is suicide due to terran having a way better economy. So you count a macro game where flash is ahead in economy from the get go? No that isn't how it should work, so till Flash stops being so greedy (moving his force over to the third + making a bunker to make it so jaedong would be way behind while also 14 CC'ing). He deserves to lose.
Just like jaedong deserved to lose when he was mass expanding while making no units then flash would come out and kill him in like alot of the finals. He deserved to lose for being to greedy just like flash, flash didn't beat him in a macro game, jaedong lost because he was being to greedy like flash trying to get a huge advantage.
Like, who thinks it's a good idea to go 3 base off one gateway where one of your bases is a base that can be killed by 2 siegetanks behind a damn cliff.
stream skipping far ahead stats has an adun, observatory and a stargate he's also taking a 4th base at 6 o'clock Hiya meanwhile is making a push down towards stat's nat
Hiya has a 3rd at the inner NE expo vultures attacking the probes a tthe nat, tanks are shelling a pylon there too stats forces are waiting for an opportunity to attack
shuttle comes out of the robo and loads up some zealots
shuttle flying over the tanks, zealot bombs take out a tank. tanks unseige and stats makes his move, he has to go through a mine field though! tanks reseige and fire at the goons, stats losing 5/6 goons before retreating
vultures move in along with unseiged tanks all goons are dead, the nat is vulnerable
What is Stats doing? He got smashed so hard Shoulda attempted more zealot bombs, that was working instead of walking all his goons and zealots past that massive minefield
On June 15 2011 14:28 iLoveKT wrote: what the hell was that at 9 flash...
probably expected the standard build but jaedong played smart, he knew flash will do this and that he cant defend the 2nd expo, thus he sacrificed expo for a timed attack, making use of the fact that with the army out, flash will have less units to defend in the main
Well stated Sir. Flash kinda got ahead of himself, and got overagressive. I was waiting for somebody to break Flash's 14cc after scout build, and it looks like JD managed to do just that.
effort game 5. We all know which game i'm talking about.
On June 15 2011 14:48 TwoToneTerran wrote: Like, who thinks it's a good idea to go 3 base off one gateway where one of your bases is a base that can be killed by 2 siegetanks behind a damn cliff.
DO NOT SEND NON TERRANS ON BELTWAY. IT'S DUMB.
There's nothing wrong with sending protosses on Beltway. Carriers are pretty good. It's just that Stats chose a terrible strategy.
That was just bad play on stats part he didnt make enough gateway. They need to take a page out of best play book. Best seriously knows when to expand and how many gateway to throw up to defend against T push............which is why he is the BEST.
On June 15 2011 14:48 TwoToneTerran wrote: Like, who thinks it's a good idea to go 3 base off one gateway where one of your bases is a base that can be killed by 2 siegetanks behind a damn cliff.
DO NOT SEND NON TERRANS ON BELTWAY. IT'S DUMB.
There's nothing wrong with sending protosses on Beltway. Carriers are pretty good. It's just that Stats chose a terrible strategy.
What? Terran gets an unstoppable 3 base and protoss has no good way to take a third. It is a plain bad map to play against terran on. He did an incredibly risky strategy because you don't win on that map without something clever.
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO
Definitely all-in. 14cc vs. forced to mass two groups of lings, 2 sunkens, and no third? Definitely all-in :3
wouldn't be enough to call it all-in, tbh
If that attack did anything less than kill like 20 SCVs and a bazillion marines, Jaedong would've lost :3 Pretty all-in ;o
all-in is such a misused word
all-in means if the attack doesnt win the game then the all-iner loses. you just admitted yourself the attack wasn't all-in by saying "20 scvs/a lot of marines" isn't killing the opponent
the term "all-in" itself is a dumb word anyway, nothing is "all-in" if you think about it. as long as you do equal damage that you put into it its cost effective.
On June 15 2011 14:36 champignones wrote: its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from flash when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt.
tell me when flash stops making mistakes so that jaedong doesn't have to kill him early, then we can have a good zvt
this only proves flash messed up big time and thats it, jd will gain my respect again when he win flash in a BO5 in a league final or semifinal ,but i promise you he will lose as he always do against flash.
well he's not going to let flash get away with 14 cc, and being super greedy like he was. That is suicide due to terran having a way better economy. So you count a macro game where flash is ahead in economy from the get go? No that isn't how it should work, so till Flash stops being so greedy (moving his force over to the third + making a bunker to make it so jaedong would be way behind while also 14 CC'ing). He deserves to lose.
flash could hold that attack regarding he made 14 cc , his mistake was that he divide his forces in order to try to deny third, and jaedong simply took advantage and went for the main. as i told you this shows nothing about jaedong skill at all, this only shows he .... does mutalisk?, i wanted to see defiler swarm terran advancing retreating, etc. if jaedong would have won in that way then i would say his zvt is just godly like the last time they play when he clearly outmacroed flash, unfortunately flash wasnt able to show his late game play due to that mistake.
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO
Definitely all-in. 14cc vs. forced to mass two groups of lings, 2 sunkens, and no third? Definitely all-in :3
wouldn't be enough to call it all-in, tbh
If that attack did anything less than kill like 20 SCVs and a bazillion marines, Jaedong would've lost :3 Pretty all-in ;o
all-in is such a misused word
all-in means if the attack doesnt win the game then the all-iner loses. you just admitted yourself the attack wasn't all-in by saying "20 scvs/a lot of marines" isn't killing the opponent
the term "all-in" itself is a dumb word anyway, nothing is "all-in" if you think about it. as long as you do equal damage that you put into it its cost effective.
You just admitted you don't know what killing your opponent is when you think that killing their entire army and 2/3rds of their workers isn't killing them. It was all in -- if a zerg uses only 3 hatches to make nothing but units and skips drones and goes from mutas directly to lurkers without taking a third it is a straight all in. There is nothing embarassing or shameful about doing an all in.
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO
Definitely all-in. 14cc vs. forced to mass two groups of lings, 2 sunkens, and no third? Definitely all-in :3
wouldn't be enough to call it all-in, tbh
If that attack did anything less than kill like 20 SCVs and a bazillion marines, Jaedong would've lost :3 Pretty all-in ;o
all-in is such a misused word
all-in means if the attack doesnt win the game then the all-iner loses. you just admitted yourself the attack wasn't all-in by saying "20 scvs/a lot of marines" isn't killing the opponent
the term "all-in" itself is a dumb word anyway, nothing is "all-in" if you think about it. as long as you do equal damage that you put into it its cost effective.
although you're 100% correct, i doubt many will really listen haha
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO
Definitely all-in. 14cc vs. forced to mass two groups of lings, 2 sunkens, and no third? Definitely all-in :3
wouldn't be enough to call it all-in, tbh
If that attack did anything less than kill like 20 SCVs and a bazillion marines, Jaedong would've lost :3 Pretty all-in ;o
all-in is such a misused word
all-in means if the attack doesnt win the game then the all-iner loses. you just admitted yourself the attack wasn't all-in by saying "20 scvs/a lot of marines" isn't killing the opponent
the term "all-in" itself is a dumb word anyway, nothing is "all-in" if you think about it. as long as you do equal damage that you put into it its cost effective.
In other words, If you can transition out of something into a viable build, it is not all-in.
On June 15 2011 14:36 champignones wrote: its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from flash when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt.
tell me when flash stops making mistakes so that jaedong doesn't have to kill him early, then we can have a good zvt
this only proves flash messed up big time and thats it, jd will gain my respect again when he win flash in a BO5 in a league final or semifinal ,but i promise you he will lose as he always do against flash.
well he's not going to let flash get away with 14 cc, and being super greedy like he was. That is suicide due to terran having a way better economy. So you count a macro game where flash is ahead in economy from the get go? No that isn't how it should work, so till Flash stops being so greedy (moving his force over to the third + making a bunker to make it so jaedong would be way behind while also 14 CC'ing). He deserves to lose.
flash could hold that attack regarding he made 14 cc , his mistake was that he divide his forces in order to try to deny third, and jaedong simply took advantage and went for the main. as i told you this shows nothing about jaedong skill at all, this only shows he .... does mutalisk?, i wanted to see defiler swarm terran advancing retreating, etc. if jaedong would have won in that way then i would say his zvt is just godly like the last time they play when he clearly outmacroed flash, unfortunately flash wasnt able to show his late game play due to that mistake.
I want to see it to i'm just saying letting flash do all that is being greedy and should be punished. Like I said he sent most of his forces and made a bunker at jaedongs third to deny it longer then normal and be that much more ahead economically. Instead Jaedong punishes him (whether by scouting or by luck) and wins.
Just like jaedong deserved to lose when he was mass expanding while making no units then flash would come out and kill him in like alot of the finals. He deserved to lose for being to greedy just like flash, flash didn't beat him in a macro game, jaedong lost because he was being to greedy like flash trying to get a huge advantage to where if flash let it go untouched, would be rolled over like a pancake.
On June 15 2011 14:36 champignones wrote: its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from flash when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt.
tell me when flash stops making mistakes so that jaedong doesn't have to kill him early, then we can have a good zvt
this only proves flash messed up big time and thats it, jd will gain my respect again when he win flash in a BO5 in a league final or semifinal ,but i promise you he will lose as he always do against flash.
well he's not going to let flash get away with 14 cc, and being super greedy like he was. That is suicide due to terran having a way better economy. So you count a macro game where flash is ahead in economy from the get go? No that isn't how it should work, so till Flash stops being so greedy (moving his force over to the third + making a bunker to make it so jaedong would be way behind while also 14 CC'ing). He deserves to lose.
flash could hold that attack regarding he made 14 cc , his mistake was that he divide his forces in order to try to deny third, and jaedong simply took advantage and went for the main. as i told you this shows nothing about jaedong skill at all, this only shows he .... does mutalisk?, i wanted to see defiler swarm terran advancing retreating, etc. if jaedong would have won in that way then i would say his zvt is just godly like the last time they play when he clearly outmacroed flash, unfortunately flash wasnt able to show his late game play due to that mistake.
Too bad. Don't blame JD for Flash's stupidity. He outthought himself and lost.
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO
Definitely all-in. 14cc vs. forced to mass two groups of lings, 2 sunkens, and no third? Definitely all-in :3
wouldn't be enough to call it all-in, tbh
If that attack did anything less than kill like 20 SCVs and a bazillion marines, Jaedong would've lost :3 Pretty all-in ;o
all-in is such a misused word
all-in means if the attack doesnt win the game then the all-iner loses. you just admitted yourself the attack wasn't all-in by saying "20 scvs/a lot of marines" isn't killing the opponent
the term "all-in" itself is a dumb word anyway, nothing is "all-in" if you think about it. as long as you do equal damage that you put into it its cost effective.
You just admitted you don't know what killing your opponent is when you think that killing their entire army and 2/3rds of their workers isn't killing them. It was all in -- if a zerg uses only 3 hatches to make nothing but units and skips drones and goes from mutas directly to lurkers without taking a third it is a straight all in. There is nothing embarassing or shameful about doing an all in.
That isn't "all-in" though. All in means ALL or NOTHING, win or lose, etc. If he did enough damage, but Flash still survived, the game could've transitioned into something somewhat normal.
If you invest, for example, 1000 minerals and 500 gas into an early attack by not expanding/teching then you deal 1000 minerals and 500 gas with that attack, then you didn't kill your opponent or kill yourself. You are on an even footing. I understand what people mean when they say "all-in", it is just a stupid word to describe the form of play, imo.
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO
Definitely all-in. 14cc vs. forced to mass two groups of lings, 2 sunkens, and no third? Definitely all-in :3
wouldn't be enough to call it all-in, tbh
If that attack did anything less than kill like 20 SCVs and a bazillion marines, Jaedong would've lost :3 Pretty all-in ;o
all-in is such a misused word
all-in means if the attack doesnt win the game then the all-iner loses. you just admitted yourself the attack wasn't all-in by saying "20 scvs/a lot of marines" isn't killing the opponent
the term "all-in" itself is a dumb word anyway, nothing is "all-in" if you think about it. as long as you do equal damage that you put into it its cost effective.
In other words, If you can transition out of something into a viable build, it is not all-in.
Take the example of the Fast DT or 2 port wraith... you are behind economically but if you do some damage you can make transition to boost your economy, and deny oponent's
On June 15 2011 14:36 champignones wrote: its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from flash when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt.
tell me when flash stops making mistakes so that jaedong doesn't have to kill him early, then we can have a good zvt
this only proves flash messed up big time and thats it, jd will gain my respect again when he win flash in a BO5 in a league final or semifinal ,but i promise you he will lose as he always do against flash.
well he's not going to let flash get away with 14 cc, and being super greedy like he was. That is suicide due to terran having a way better economy. So you count a macro game where flash is ahead in economy from the get go? No that isn't how it should work, so till Flash stops being so greedy (moving his force over to the third + making a bunker to make it so jaedong would be way behind while also 14 CC'ing). He deserves to lose.
flash could hold that attack regarding he made 14 cc , his mistake was that he divide his forces in order to try to deny third, and jaedong simply took advantage and went for the main. as i told you this shows nothing about jaedong skill at all, this only shows he .... does mutalisk?, i wanted to see defiler swarm terran advancing retreating, etc. if jaedong would have won in that way then i would say his zvt is just godly like the last time they play when he clearly outmacroed flash, unfortunately flash wasnt able to show his late game play due to that mistake.
I want to see it to i'm just saying letting flash do all that is being greedy and should be punished. Like I said he sent most of his forces and made a bunker at jaedongs third to deny it longer then normal and be that much more ahead economically. Instead Jaedong punishes him (whether by scouting or by luck) and wins.
Just like jaedong deserved to lose when he was mass expanding while making no units then flash would come out and kill him in like alot of the finals. He deserved to lose for being to greedy just like flash, flash didn't beat him in a macro game, jaedong lost because he was being to greedy like flash trying to get a huge advantage to where if flash let it go untouched, would be rolled over like a pancake.
Pretty much 100% my thoughts. These players don't seem to lose to each other "legitimately" much any more...it's just BO wins or punished excessive greed.
On June 15 2011 14:36 champignones wrote: its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from flash when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt.
tell me when flash stops making mistakes so that jaedong doesn't have to kill him early, then we can have a good zvt
this only proves flash messed up big time and thats it, jd will gain my respect again when he win flash in a BO5 in a league final or semifinal ,but i promise you he will lose as he always do against flash.
well he's not going to let flash get away with 14 cc, and being super greedy like he was. That is suicide due to terran having a way better economy. So you count a macro game where flash is ahead in economy from the get go? No that isn't how it should work, so till Flash stops being so greedy (moving his force over to the third + making a bunker to make it so jaedong would be way behind while also 14 CC'ing). He deserves to lose.
flash could hold that attack regarding he made 14 cc , his mistake was that he divide his forces in order to try to deny third, and jaedong simply took advantage and went for the main. as i told you this shows nothing about jaedong skill at all, this only shows he .... does mutalisk?, i wanted to see defiler swarm terran advancing retreating, etc. if jaedong would have won in that way then i would say his zvt is just godly like the last time they play when he clearly outmacroed flash, unfortunately flash wasnt able to show his late game play due to that mistake.
I want to see it to i'm just saying letting flash do all that is being greedy and should be punished. Like I said he sent most of his forces and made a bunker at jaedongs third to deny it longer then normal and be that much more ahead economically. Instead Jaedong punishes him (whether by scouting or by luck) and wins.
Just like jaedong deserved to lose when he was mass expanding while making no units then flash would come out and kill him in like alot of the finals. He deserved to lose for being to greedy just like flash, flash didn't beat him in a macro game, jaedong lost because he was being to greedy like flash trying to get a huge advantage to where if flash let it go untouched, would be rolled over like a pancake.
either way jaedong needs to beat the other progamers as well, is like in pokemon some pokemon are good against some types but no pokemon is good against all the types at the same time, i hope jd recover himself and play flash in yet another final,but an exciting one not like the latest zvt we had that had been very depressing due to one player being too good or another playing being too weak
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO
Definitely all-in. 14cc vs. forced to mass two groups of lings, 2 sunkens, and no third? Definitely all-in :3
wouldn't be enough to call it all-in, tbh
If that attack did anything less than kill like 20 SCVs and a bazillion marines, Jaedong would've lost :3 Pretty all-in ;o
all-in is such a misused word
all-in means if the attack doesnt win the game then the all-iner loses. you just admitted yourself the attack wasn't all-in by saying "20 scvs/a lot of marines" isn't killing the opponent
the term "all-in" itself is a dumb word anyway, nothing is "all-in" if you think about it. as long as you do equal damage that you put into it its cost effective.
You just admitted you don't know what killing your opponent is when you think that killing their entire army and 2/3rds of their workers isn't killing them. It was all in -- if a zerg uses only 3 hatches to make nothing but units and skips drones and goes from mutas directly to lurkers without taking a third it is a straight all in. There is nothing embarassing or shameful about doing an all in.
That isn't "all-in" though. All in means ALL or NOTHING, win or lose, etc. If he did enough damage, but Flash still survived, the game could've transitioned into something somewhat normal.
If you invest, for example, 1000 minerals and 500 gas into an early attack by not expanding/teching then you deal 1000 minerals and 500 gas with that attack, then you didn't kill your opponent or kill yourself. You are on an even footing. I understand what people mean when they say "all-in", it is just a stupid word to describe the form of play, imo.
This is pedantic bordering nonsense. If the attack does not do enough to kill flash then it's 2 base vs 2 base which is a dead situation for zerg everytime. The intent of the play is to kill the opponent or expect a loss. It is a one in a thousand scenario when attacks like these just cancel out. Favoring the aberration is silly.
There is no situation in this game where Jaedong wins if that attack does not work. He can not make a third base because of Flash's roaming force, there's no "breaking even" in this scenario. With some cheeses this is the case, but not 2 base zvt all ins.
but the point was that JD was already behind econwise because of early game. What JD did wasnt the typical very fast 2base mutas, the attack was just a reaction to the situation he got himself to initially. it was pretty much a do-or-die. and lol, ofc the point is not eliminate every single of their buildings for smth to be an all-in, like CSheep said 20 scvs midgame would do.
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO
Definitely all-in. 14cc vs. forced to mass two groups of lings, 2 sunkens, and no third? Definitely all-in :3
wouldn't be enough to call it all-in, tbh
If that attack did anything less than kill like 20 SCVs and a bazillion marines, Jaedong would've lost :3 Pretty all-in ;o
all-in is such a misused word
all-in means if the attack doesnt win the game then the all-iner loses. you just admitted yourself the attack wasn't all-in by saying "20 scvs/a lot of marines" isn't killing the opponent
the term "all-in" itself is a dumb word anyway, nothing is "all-in" if you think about it. as long as you do equal damage that you put into it its cost effective.
You just admitted you don't know what killing your opponent is when you think that killing their entire army and 2/3rds of their workers isn't killing them. It was all in -- if a zerg uses only 3 hatches to make nothing but units and skips drones and goes from mutas directly to lurkers without taking a third it is a straight all in. There is nothing embarassing or shameful about doing an all in.
That isn't "all-in" though. All in means ALL or NOTHING, win or lose, etc. If he did enough damage, but Flash still survived, the game could've transitioned into something somewhat normal.
If you invest, for example, 1000 minerals and 500 gas into an early attack by not expanding/teching then you deal 1000 minerals and 500 gas with that attack, then you didn't kill your opponent or kill yourself. You are on an even footing. I understand what people mean when they say "all-in", it is just a stupid word to describe the form of play, imo.
This is pedantic bordering nonsense. If the attack does not do enough to kill flash then it's 2 base vs 2 base which is a dead situation for zerg everytime. The intent of the play is to kill the opponent or expect a loss. It is a one in a thousand scenario when attacks like these just cancel out. Favoring the aberration is silly.
You are making it sound like they have to cancel eachother out exactly. Besides 2 base Z vs 2 base T with ALOT less SCVs doesn't mean T wins. It isn't an abberation at all, I was just using that as an example. JD did enough damage there, if his mutalisks would've died somehow there the game could've transitioned into something normal. That isn't the definition of the term "all-in".
edit:
I think you are losing perspective of what I'm arguing, or I didn't make it clear. To me, there really isn't any "all-in" in Starcraft, because there are never only 2 options, win or lose. There are too many factors that dictate the game. All-in is a misused word.
Good god KT you guys suck. I know I'm just frustrated but really Tempest you are a veteran losing to Sky............. -______-. Stats playing terribly. Etc. Talk about unclutch
Everything fell into place for Oz today. All their victories had something to them that I enjoyed. Sucks for Lomo though. I think he's good enough to beat zergs at a 50% rate.
Really tough loss to stomach. No way KT is winning PL this year.
These guys need to shape up. Stats and CH need to be more consistent. Action and Tempest need to stop failing. Flash needs to turn on his godmode. The rookies need to improve quickly and do their part. Whatever happened to winning it all for Violet? :/ No resolve in their play at all.
On June 15 2011 14:36 champignones wrote: its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from flash when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt.
tell me when flash stops making mistakes so that jaedong doesn't have to kill him early, then we can have a good zvt
this only proves flash messed up big time and thats it, jd will gain my respect again when he win flash in a BO5 in a league final or semifinal ,but i promise you he will lose as he always do against flash.
well he's not going to let flash get away with 14 cc, and being super greedy like he was. That is suicide due to terran having a way better economy. So you count a macro game where flash is ahead in economy from the get go? No that isn't how it should work, so till Flash stops being so greedy (moving his force over to the third + making a bunker to make it so jaedong would be way behind while also 14 CC'ing). He deserves to lose.
flash could hold that attack regarding he made 14 cc , his mistake was that he divide his forces in order to try to deny third, and jaedong simply took advantage and went for the main. as i told you this shows nothing about jaedong skill at all, this only shows he .... does mutalisk?, i wanted to see defiler swarm terran advancing retreating, etc. if jaedong would have won in that way then i would say his zvt is just godly like the last time they play when he clearly outmacroed flash, unfortunately flash wasnt able to show his late game play due to that mistake.
I want to see it to i'm just saying letting flash do all that is being greedy and should be punished. Like I said he sent most of his forces and made a bunker at jaedongs third to deny it longer then normal and be that much more ahead economically. Instead Jaedong punishes him (whether by scouting or by luck) and wins.
Just like jaedong deserved to lose when he was mass expanding while making no units then flash would come out and kill him in like alot of the finals. He deserved to lose for being to greedy just like flash, flash didn't beat him in a macro game, jaedong lost because he was being to greedy like flash trying to get a huge advantage to where if flash let it go untouched, would be rolled over like a pancake.
Pretty much 100% my thoughts. These players don't seem to lose to each other "legitimately" much any more...it's just BO wins or punished excessive greed.
Lol the last time i remember a legit win from JvF was in the 3rd set of bigfile msl final on fighting spirit. There also that game from winner's league ace match where jd made a huge blunder and lost. And also that game in the death group.
Any from watching JvF i have learnt that it's all mind games right now. Man remember the Korean air Osl 2 final? So much cheese and unorthodox builds in the last series they met in Bo5
On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote: how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG
It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO
Definitely all-in. 14cc vs. forced to mass two groups of lings, 2 sunkens, and no third? Definitely all-in :3
wouldn't be enough to call it all-in, tbh
If that attack did anything less than kill like 20 SCVs and a bazillion marines, Jaedong would've lost :3 Pretty all-in ;o
all-in is such a misused word
all-in means if the attack doesnt win the game then the all-iner loses. you just admitted yourself the attack wasn't all-in by saying "20 scvs/a lot of marines" isn't killing the opponent
the term "all-in" itself is a dumb word anyway, nothing is "all-in" if you think about it. as long as you do equal damage that you put into it its cost effective.
You just admitted you don't know what killing your opponent is when you think that killing their entire army and 2/3rds of their workers isn't killing them. It was all in -- if a zerg uses only 3 hatches to make nothing but units and skips drones and goes from mutas directly to lurkers without taking a third it is a straight all in. There is nothing embarassing or shameful about doing an all in.
That isn't "all-in" though. All in means ALL or NOTHING, win or lose, etc. If he did enough damage, but Flash still survived, the game could've transitioned into something somewhat normal.
If you invest, for example, 1000 minerals and 500 gas into an early attack by not expanding/teching then you deal 1000 minerals and 500 gas with that attack, then you didn't kill your opponent or kill yourself. You are on an even footing. I understand what people mean when they say "all-in", it is just a stupid word to describe the form of play, imo.
This is pedantic bordering nonsense. If the attack does not do enough to kill flash then it's 2 base vs 2 base which is a dead situation for zerg everytime. The intent of the play is to kill the opponent or expect a loss. It is a one in a thousand scenario when attacks like these just cancel out. Favoring the aberration is silly.
You are making it sound like they have to cancel eachother out exactly. Besides 2 base Z vs 2 base T with ALOT less SCVs doesn't mean T wins. It isn't an abberation at all, I was just using that as an example. JD did enough damage there, if his mutalisks would've died somehow there the game could've transitioned into something normal. That isn't the definition of the term "all-in".
edit:
I think you are losing perspective of what I'm arguing, or I didn't make it clear. To me, there really isn't any "all-in" in Starcraft, because there are never only 2 options, win or lose. There are too many factors that dictate the game. All-in is a misused word.
Then you're just being pedantic and don't get how TvZ works. This particular attack WAS all in because if the attack does not work then Flash has a complete mnm force roaming the map and zerg can do nothing to win in this situation -- you don't produce enough units on that economy with only 3 hatches to beat even one control group of MnM. From there you just die once the terran decides to make a tank, because the only thing to stop terran from killing your nat is the 3 lurkers you could bother to afford to defend it. There is no conceivable scenario where if that attack does not win the game that Flash doesn't win. This is not always the case with cheeses, but atleast in this scenario it was all in.
Unless you want to declassify it as a non-allin because if it failed and Flash decided to just stop playing, took his hands off his mouse and keyboard, and let Jaedong do whatever he wants then yes Jaedong could've gotten back in the game. I don't live in a fantasy world.
On June 15 2011 15:13 Hero.SP wrote: Flash : Keeping his mm force at 9 Stats: Exp at a place easily destroyed by siege tanks. Tempest: DT exp with no damage from DT.
Yeah it sucks for today
Don't forget action lost from some advantage in the beginning.
On June 15 2011 15:12 Winechu wrote: Really tough loss to stomach. No way KT is winning PL this year.
These guys need to shape up. Stats and CH need to be more consistent. Action and Tempest need to stop failing. Flash needs to turn on his godmode. The rookies need to improve quickly and do their part. Whatever happened to winning it all for Violet? :/ No resolve in their play at all.
Agreed completely. And the coach needs to start locking players in rooms again to force them to play. KT is crap this year. Never thought they could suck so bad. The rookies are not improving and Crazy-Hydra, one of the only real hopes for the team was nothing more than a flop. They dont have any good players except Flash and even he can't save the team.
Aside from that, I feel very happy for JD despite my usual support for Flash. Hopefully, this will make him come out of the slump.
I think that wasn't that big of a slump. 1) ZerO is actually competent in ZvZ now, 2) ZvZ is a match up when you can fuck up in one moment.
To fuck up one moment you don't actually need to be in slump. If you constantly lose games because of overall poor play, then you slump. But this was not Jaedong's case I think.
I watched his game vs. ggaemo - he really almost won it and then threw it away by not killing 150 hp hatchery. That's quite painful to watch or to do, but it's just a bad mood / luck (a bad luck to be in bad mood lolol), but not overall dropped level of skill I think. So I don't doubt that he'll continue to be good.
Maybe he can care a bit less about team finally? If he already done so, and it's because of it that they started to play well, then it's awesome.
Just realised ninja banner change from flash to jaedong haha.
IMO Flash needs to stop over-mind-gaming with jaedong. He tried to deny a third when jaedong decides to do a timing attack off two bases, and catches him with his army out of base.
On June 15 2011 15:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Then you're just being pedantic and don't get how TvZ works. This particular attack WAS all in because if the attack does not work then Flash has a complete mnm force roaming the map and zerg can do nothing to win in this situation -- you don't produce enough units on that economy with only 3 hatches to beat even one control group of MnM. From there you just die once the terran decides to make a tank, because the only thing to stop terran from killing your nat is the 3 lurkers you could bother to afford to defend it. There is no conceivable scenario where if that attack does not win the game that Flash doesn't win. This is not always the case with cheeses, but atleast in this scenario it was all in.
Unless you want to declassify it as a non-allin because if it failed and Flash decided to just stop playing, took his hands off his mouse and keyboard, and let Jaedong do whatever he wants then yes Jaedong could've gotten back in the game. I don't live in a fantasy world.
There is no conceivable scenario where if that attack does not win the game that Flash doesn't win.
Really, you sure about that?
This particular attack WAS all in because if the attack does not work then Flash has a complete mnm force roaming the map
No, Jaedong killed it all during his attack, along with like 20 SCVS.
Unless you want to declassify it as a non-allin because if it failed and Flash decided to just stop playing, took his hands off his mouse and keyboard, and let Jaedong do whatever he wants then yes Jaedong could've gotten back in the game. I don't live in a fantasy world
Try not to sound so condescending in your posts, now you just sound like an arrogant jackass who doesn't know what the term "all-in" means. In Starcraft there is ALWAYS the chance that a middle ground can be struck.
There are always 3 sections to an "all-in" attack in Starcraft
doesnt do enough damage, loses does just enough damage to break even does more than enough damage, wins
That isn't an all-in, there are so many things that can still happen if it just crosses the "break even" threshold or is just under it. All-in doesn't mean "maybe win now or maybe lose now or break even." It means win or lose.
On June 15 2011 15:12 Winechu wrote: Really tough loss to stomach. No way KT is winning PL this year.
These guys need to shape up. Stats and CH need to be more consistent. Action and Tempest need to stop failing. Flash needs to turn on his godmode. The rookies need to improve quickly and do their part. Whatever happened to winning it all for Violet? :/ No resolve in their play at all.
Agreed completely. And the coach needs to start locking players in rooms again to force them to play. KT is crap this year. Never thought they could suck so bad. The rookies are not improving and Crazy-Hydra, one of the only real hopes for the team was nothing more than a flop. They dont have any good players except Flash and even he can't save the team.
Aside from that, I feel very happy for JD despite my usual support for Flash. Hopefully, this will make him come out of the slump.
And you guys call yourselves KT fans. Please go and look how KT has traveled over the year and then make these statements again.
The Dong will now rest easy tonight. It was a quick but intense slump, losing to random B or even C class players was really sad. Now, he has beaten his nemesis again. Flash must have been celebrating a little too hard.
WOW both oz and kt suck, but I expected KT to win with JD's recent losses and the fact that oz is 2nd last place. I am very surprised to see flash lose a TvZ, but also surprised that he would even play on neo aztec (maybe a snipe for JD?) anyway, can't wait for the VODS as I missed the whole series T_T;;'
JD ahead now against flash head to head? considering that jd was the god of ZvZ it was quite worrying when he started his ZvZ losing streak. heres hoping for an MSL gold on jd's shirt sometime in the future XD
On June 15 2011 15:12 Winechu wrote: Really tough loss to stomach. No way KT is winning PL this year.
These guys need to shape up. Stats and CH need to be more consistent. Action and Tempest need to stop failing. Flash needs to turn on his godmode. The rookies need to improve quickly and do their part. Whatever happened to winning it all for Violet? :/ No resolve in their play at all.
Agreed completely. And the coach needs to start locking players in rooms again to force them to play. KT is crap this year. Never thought they could suck so bad. The rookies are not improving and Crazy-Hydra, one of the only real hopes for the team was nothing more than a flop. They dont have any good players except Flash and even he can't save the team.
Aside from that, I feel very happy for JD despite my usual support for Flash. Hopefully, this will make him come out of the slump.
And you guys call yourselves KT fans. Please go and look how KT has traveled over the year and then make these statements again.
I'll stand by what I said. They knew they had to win all the remaining matches to even try to catch second place, and they go ahead and lose to ACE and OZ. That's not a sign of a championship calibre team. It is true that Stats and CH need to be more consistent; on their day they can play great starcraft, but when they're not they lose to thrash like Soo and S2. That's not acceptable at all, considering what they're capable of. I'm not bashing them either, but their performance leaves much to be desired. I'm not going to even mention Action and Tempest. I like them a lot, but they're going to need to have at least a 50% for KT to even stand a chance in the post-season. All of these players are capable of playing great starcraft, but they're just not doing it. As a fan I just can't help but feel exasperated. I'll keep cheering them on nonetheless, but it pains me to see players like Stats and Action not fulfill their potential.
On June 15 2011 15:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Then you're just being pedantic and don't get how TvZ works. This particular attack WAS all in because if the attack does not work then Flash has a complete mnm force roaming the map and zerg can do nothing to win in this situation -- you don't produce enough units on that economy with only 3 hatches to beat even one control group of MnM. From there you just die once the terran decides to make a tank, because the only thing to stop terran from killing your nat is the 3 lurkers you could bother to afford to defend it. There is no conceivable scenario where if that attack does not win the game that Flash doesn't win. This is not always the case with cheeses, but atleast in this scenario it was all in.
Unless you want to declassify it as a non-allin because if it failed and Flash decided to just stop playing, took his hands off his mouse and keyboard, and let Jaedong do whatever he wants then yes Jaedong could've gotten back in the game. I don't live in a fantasy world.
This particular attack WAS all in because if the attack does not work then Flash has a complete mnm force roaming the map
No, Jaedong killed it all during his attack, along with like 20 SCVS.
Yes, this is why it worked. See, if it didn't work it's because Flash had units leftover. This is why Jaedong is dead if it does not work. This is a one or the other scenario, there's no middle ground here.
Unless you want to declassify it as a non-allin because if it failed and Flash decided to just stop playing, took his hands off his mouse and keyboard, and let Jaedong do whatever he wants then yes Jaedong could've gotten back in the game. I don't live in a fantasy world
Try not to sound so condescending in your posts, now you just sound like an arrogant jackass who doesn't know what the term "all-in" means. In Starcraft there is ALWAYS the chance that a middle ground can be struck.
There are always 3 sections to an "all-in" attack in Starcraft
doesnt do enough damage, loses does just enough damage to break even does more than enough damage, wins
That isn't an all-in, there are so many things that can still happen if it just crosses the "break even" threshold or is just under it. All-in doesn't mean "maybe win now or maybe lose now or break even." It means win or lose.
You don't seem to get that there's no "break even" in this scenario. You have done absolutely no analysis of the match itself and have just repeated ad nausem that they could "break even." Repeating it without explanation doesn't mean anything. The only reason I'm arguing with you is because you're wrong in this particular situation and won't actually talk about anything that happened in the game to prove otherwise. There's a specific difference in midgame allins and early game cheese that you're having a hard time grasping. Your argument seems entirely rooted in how early game cheeses rarely break even because neither player has the combat unit production capability to capitalize on the situation, which isn't how midgame cheeses work out.
How do they break even, Jaedong kills every unit flash has but loses all his mutas to turrets and even kills enough scvs to make the economy's perfectly even? Then Jaedong kills him with lurkers because Flash has no units. Flash fends of the units with enough army left to fend off a lurker attack and does enough economy damage? Then he wins because Jaedong has only 3 hatches and like 20 drones and Zerg cannot stop the terran from outmacroing him on two bases -- because he only has 3 hatcheries.
You just repeat breaking even when there's no break even situation here. There's no way that Jaedong could've continued the game unless his mutaling and followup lurkers did not do enough damage to beat Flash. It's just how TvZ works when zerg does 3 hatch all ins.
I sound like an arrogant asshole because I'm taking the time to actually detail to you why I consider this particular cheese an all in. It wasn't some scenario like where a zerg 5 pools and leaves the terran with 5 scvs and 2 marines in a bunker and they just start making workers and expanding from there. The tech was too high and the Terran already had 2 command centers and a high number of production facilities. In any situation where the terran fends of the attack and isn't too crippled to GG anyhow they will win, assuming they do not just stop playing as I said.
And frankly, your whole spiel on how people shouldn't call it an "all-in," or any other cheese all-in is absolutely, unambiguously pedantic. It's like the people who get onto folks who use "literally" for emphasis and whatnot. In most situations you're technically right, but it's dumb to try to get people to stop saying it just because you don't like the insinuation that it somehow lessens Jaedong's win to call it an all-in. Do you want people to just start calling it cheese, which has an even worse connotation, just because you have a hard-on for strict, literal interpretations on a forum where we post 3 straight pages of bouncing rainbow sheep?
The only reason I'm arguing with you is because I believe you're wrong in this particular situation and won't actually talk about anything that happened in the game to prove otherwise. There's a specific difference in midgame allins and early game cheese that you're having a hard time grasping.
On June 15 2011 15:12 Winechu wrote: Really tough loss to stomach. No way KT is winning PL this year.
These guys need to shape up. Stats and CH need to be more consistent. Action and Tempest need to stop failing. Flash needs to turn on his godmode. The rookies need to improve quickly and do their part. Whatever happened to winning it all for Violet? :/ No resolve in their play at all.
Agreed completely. And the coach needs to start locking players in rooms again to force them to play. KT is crap this year. Never thought they could suck so bad. The rookies are not improving and Crazy-Hydra, one of the only real hopes for the team was nothing more than a flop. They dont have any good players except Flash and even he can't save the team.
Aside from that, I feel very happy for JD despite my usual support for Flash. Hopefully, this will make him come out of the slump.
And you guys call yourselves KT fans. Please go and look how KT has traveled over the year and then make these statements again.
It's nothing about being a fan. You can recognize when your team is flailing. There was alot of talk in interviews about how hard the team was preparing for round 6 and specifically their match vs SKT and yet they ended up playing very uninspired. Last season even before KT was seeded into the finals I could feel that they had a very good chance of winning it all (I felt it was a given, but I'm a fan so I'm biased.)
I think KT can still step it up but it's not looking good and I wouldn't be surprised to see them go down before the finals to both SKT and CJ at this point if they insist in continuing to play this way.
No one is saying KT has had a bad 2010-2011 PL season. They destroyed winners league until the finals, they picked up Crazy Hydra and Action who are both solid players and put up results ENOUGH *imo*, Stats is still a PvP beast... there's alot to be hopeful for, but there's alot that a passionate fan can criticize. I say that as someone who enjoys watching KT and teamleagues more than watching Flash my favorite player.
On June 15 2011 15:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Then you're just being pedantic and don't get how TvZ works. This particular attack WAS all in because if the attack does not work then Flash has a complete mnm force roaming the map and zerg can do nothing to win in this situation -- you don't produce enough units on that economy with only 3 hatches to beat even one control group of MnM. From there you just die once the terran decides to make a tank, because the only thing to stop terran from killing your nat is the 3 lurkers you could bother to afford to defend it. There is no conceivable scenario where if that attack does not win the game that Flash doesn't win. This is not always the case with cheeses, but atleast in this scenario it was all in.
Unless you want to declassify it as a non-allin because if it failed and Flash decided to just stop playing, took his hands off his mouse and keyboard, and let Jaedong do whatever he wants then yes Jaedong could've gotten back in the game. I don't live in a fantasy world.
There is no conceivable scenario where if that attack does not win the game that Flash doesn't win.
Really, you sure about that?
This particular attack WAS all in because if the attack does not work then Flash has a complete mnm force roaming the map
No, Jaedong killed it all during his attack, along with like 20 SCVS.
Yes, this is why it worked. See, if it didn't work it's because Flash had units leftover. This is why Jaedong is dead if it does not work. This is a one or the other scenario, there's no middle ground here.
Unless you want to declassify it as a non-allin because if it failed and Flash decided to just stop playing, took his hands off his mouse and keyboard, and let Jaedong do whatever he wants then yes Jaedong could've gotten back in the game. I don't live in a fantasy world
Try not to sound so condescending in your posts, now you just sound like an arrogant jackass who doesn't know what the term "all-in" means. In Starcraft there is ALWAYS the chance that a middle ground can be struck.
There are always 3 sections to an "all-in" attack in Starcraft
doesnt do enough damage, loses does just enough damage to break even does more than enough damage, wins
That isn't an all-in, there are so many things that can still happen if it just crosses the "break even" threshold or is just under it. All-in doesn't mean "maybe win now or maybe lose now or break even." It means win or lose.
You don't seem to get that there's no "break even" in this scenario. You have done absolutely no analysis of the match itself and have just repeated ad nausem that they could "break even." Repeating it without explanation doesn't mean anything. The only reason I'm arguing with you is because you're wrong in this particular situation and won't actually talk about anything that happened in the game to prove otherwise. There's a specific difference in midgame allins and early game cheese that you're having a hard time grasping. Your argument seems entirely rooted in how early game cheeses rarely break even because neither player has the combat unit production capability to capitalize on the situation, which isn't how midgame cheeses work out.
How do they break even, Jaedong kills every unit flash has but loses all his mutas to turrets and even kills enough scvs to make the economy's perfectly even? Then Jaedong kills him with lurkers because Flash has no units. Flash fends of the units with enough army left to fend off a lurker attack and does enough economy damage? Then he wins because Jaedong has only 3 hatches and like 20 drones and Zerg cannot stop the terran from outmacroing him on two bases -- because he only has 3 hatcheries.
You just repeat breaking even when there's no break even situation here. There's no way that Jaedong could've continued the game unless his mutaling and followup lurkers did not do enough damage to beat Flash. It's just how TvZ works when zerg does 3 hatch all ins.
I sound like an arrogant asshole because I'm taking the time to actually detail to you why I consider this particular cheese an all in. It wasn't some scenario like where a zerg 5 pools and leaves the terran with 5 scvs and 2 marines in a bunker and they just start making workers and expanding from there. The tech was too high and the Terran already had 2 command centers and a high number of production facilities. In any situation where the terran fends of the attack and isn't too crippled to GG anyhow they will win, assuming they do not just stop playing as I said.
And frankly, your whole spiel on how people shouldn't call it an "all-in," or any other cheese all-in is absolutely, unambiguously pedantic. It's like the people who get onto folks who use "literally" for emphasis and whatnot. In most situations you're technically right, but it's dumb to try to get people to stop saying it just because you don't like the insinuation that it somehow lessens Jaedong's win to call it an all-in. Do you want people to just start calling it cheese, which has an even worse connotation, just because you have a hard-on for strict, literal interpretations on a forum where we post 3 straight pages of bouncing rainbow sheep?
The only reason I'm arguing with you is because I believe you're wrong in this particular situation and won't actually talk about anything that happened in the game to prove otherwise. There's a specific difference in midgame allins and early game cheese that you're having a hard time grasping.
Frankly, I highly doubt you have enough knowledge of this game to flat out claim there is no "break even" scenario in this particular situation. You aren't explaining "in detail" anything about this particular game, by the way. The two paragraphs in this gigantic response that actually analyze the game are so narrow-minded that it doesn't even begin to describe the range of possibilities that could've happened. You explain like 3 plausible situations whereas you leave out infinity more. Jaedong mismicros and loses his lurkers? Flash loses forces to stop lurkers that turns the game around and he loses the advantage he has after the "all-in" attack because of it.
You are playing poker, you need a queen to win, so its either queen and win or something else and lose. Two choices, thats it. In Starcraft you can micro a Jack into a queen and still pull it off, or make someone else lose their straight.
It's just stupid, because like you admitted, all-in HAS a negative connotation to it, it is also wrong in every regard, as you admit also. You know what pedantic means, right? You are agreeing that it is used incorrectly, but don't think its worth arguing.
As for the reason you're arguing (this situation only had 2 outcomes thus qualifying it as an all-in) first of all, I strongly disagree, as would many more. Secondly, you don't have the game knowledge to make that call in the first place. Or maybe you are Jaedong or Flash or Bisu or a Professional Starcraft Coach on the TL forums arguing with some no-name. But probably not.
btw - Jaedong could again rise to at least #4 ELO with this victory. If winning vs. Flash is worth 20 points at least. (I'm not familiar with how elo is calculated).
Okay I need to ask: what's up with the bouncing sheep? Is it relevant to Jaedong somehow through some in-joke I don't understand, or is it just something flamewheel likes to use for JD?
*edit* I recall it on some Power Rank but I didn't see any context - I must be missing something
On June 15 2011 14:36 champignones wrote: its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from jaedong when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt.
JD won macro games from FLash many times, in fact, it is Flash who got quick timing wins from JD, lol. If you watch their games carefully you'll agree with that, whenever JD plays macro against Flash he wins, and watch their WCG match on Tau Cross) When JD went down to 120 or so supply, and Flash still had like 180. wow, what a game!
something I don't understand is how flash keeps getting sniped in proleague. of course, jd deserved the win, and to tell the truth he needed it much more than flash did (he really should relax for now lol, screw the rest of KT).
i swear there's some kind of conspiracy as to how flash keeps meeting best, jd, fantasy, etc...the only people who have a good chance against him if they prepare enough to snipe him. and more often than not, that chance comes around. it's also very hard to understand how bisu keeps running into zergs.
Opened the results, straight away saw JD's name bolded, felt happy. Saw Flash's name on the other side, exploded. Went to the specific LR and found the perfect description of the game.
On June 15 2011 18:23 shadymmj wrote: something I don't understand is how flash keeps getting sniped in proleague. of course, jd deserved the win, and to tell the truth he needed it much more than flash did (he really should relax for now lol, screw the rest of KT).
i swear there's some kind of conspiracy as to how flash keeps meeting best, jd, fantasy, etc...the only people who have a good chance against him if they prepare enough to snipe him. and more often than not, that chance comes around. it's also very hard to understand how bisu keeps running into zergs.
well he comes out alot on zergy maps like aztec and alternative so i guess hes destined to meet more zergs on most
On June 15 2011 18:23 shadymmj wrote: something I don't understand is how flash keeps getting sniped in proleague. of course, jd deserved the win, and to tell the truth he needed it much more than flash did (he really should relax for now lol, screw the rest of KT).
i swear there's some kind of conspiracy as to how flash keeps meeting best, jd, fantasy, etc...the only people who have a good chance against him if they prepare enough to snipe him. and more often than not, that chance comes around. it's also very hard to understand how bisu keeps running into zergs.
I think it's the coaching staff.
SKT's coaching staff is probably why they don't get screwed over matchup-wise very often and why the resident PvZ anomaly Bisu keeps running into Zergs.
KT on the other hand doesn't seem to be nearly as successful at that. Flash running into Best/JD, the two most qualified players on each team to take him out? Stats running into zergs and extending his loss streak?
So right now Jaedong sucks at ZvZ , is decent in ZvP and is in good form in his ZvT . Thought in all MUs he doesn't look invincible as he was before 2010 . If he can somehow start dominating ZvZ again he should be able to take an other title .
On June 15 2011 18:23 shadymmj wrote: something I don't understand is how flash keeps getting sniped in proleague. of course, jd deserved the win, and to tell the truth he needed it much more than flash did (he really should relax for now lol, screw the rest of KT).
i swear there's some kind of conspiracy as to how flash keeps meeting best, jd, fantasy, etc...the only people who have a good chance against him if they prepare enough to snipe him. and more often than not, that chance comes around. it's also very hard to understand how bisu keeps running into zergs.
The KT coach is really bad at making entries. Like, atrocious. When you compare KT's lineups to SKT and CJ's, it's like night and day.
For example, take KT vs SKT. Action was sent out on Alternative, which Bisu plays on extremely frequently. Now, Action played a good game, but you have to be nuts to think an average Zerg is your best shot at beating Bisu right now. The right thing to do there was either to send Stats, who has been successful in PvP recently and is 2-0 against Bisu, or throw some sacrificial lamb into the game so that Action could play an opponent he'd be more likely to beat later on. Instead he just sent out Action and he died. Another bad decision in that match came later when Flash was sent on Circuit Breaker into the waiting arms of Best, a very easy snipe given that Flash hadn't played yet and it was unlikely he would come out on Bloody Ridge.
In this match, we get the utterly bizarre decision to send Flash on Neo Aztec. Neo Aztec isn't an awful map for Terran, but it's not a good one either. Furthermore, at that point in the match, it seemed highly likely that Jaedong would be sent either on Neo Aztec or Circuit Breaker. Why would you ever risk matching Flash against Jaedong, given their head-to-head over their past two encounters and the overall strength of OZ's lineup? Flash versus any other player on OZ is almost certain victory, yet he is sent against the one player with a good shot of beating him. Why not send Roo or something and see if you can take advantage of Jaedong's ZvZ slump?
I don't think I even need to go into why sending Stats on Beltway when the only Terran OZ had left was Hiya (you know, that other Terran with good TvP) was completely idiotic. I don't think C-H on La Mancha was a good idea either, but that ended up working out because OZ sent their bad Terran instead of their good one.
It's absolutely true that KT's players are badly underperforming and losing to players they could be beating. But part of Proleague is making lineups that give you the best shot to get to 4 wins, even if it means dodging the opposing team's best player. KT doesn't do this.
Frankly, I highly doubt you have enough knowledge of this game to flat out claim there is no "break even" scenario in this particular situation. You aren't explaining "in detail" anything about this particular game, by the way. The two paragraphs in this gigantic response that actually analyze the game are so narrow-minded that it doesn't even begin to describe the range of possibilities that could've happened. You explain like 3 plausible situations whereas you leave out infinity more. Jaedong mismicros and loses his lurkers? Flash loses forces to stop lurkers that turns the game around and he loses the advantage he has after the "all-in" attack because of it.
If Jaedong mismicros and loses all his lurkers then his all in didn't work and it was still all in. If Flash survived the all in, went to attack and lost all his forces to lurkers, he is still going to win because it's 3 hatch undersaturated zerg vs Terran, and he just plain cannot produce enough high tier units out of 3 hatches with so few drones to stop the terran from remassing when he can't take a third. Terran can afford to make enough forces and SCVs at the same time if he survives that attack to completely contain Jaedong, otherwise he ggs because if you can't have enough income to produce out of your raxes you've lost, if you can you've won.
Also, I love the "Frankly, I highly doubt you have enough knowledge of this game," Right, so here's the problem: You do? You can, without a doubt, claim that there is no way this was an all in short of unrealistic extenuating circumstances? You do know that progamers themselves use the term all-in all the time, are you suddenly smarter than all of them? How many times has a progamer referred to something as an all or nothing attack and how many times have they said it wasn't actually all or nothing in their interivews(go read every kwanro and shine interview, or interview of someone who beat shine or kwanro)? The former is much more common than the latter. You're stating things based on basic logic, which is actually reasonable and applies to many kinds of cheeses and has happened, albeit rarely. But progamers refer to things as all in more often or not -- this is a failed line of reasoning from your standpoint.
You are playing poker, you need a queen to win, so its either queen and win or something else and lose. Two choices, thats it. In Starcraft you can micro a Jack into a queen and still pull it off, or make someone else lose their straight.
This is a very bad comparison. You can't plan on drawing a certain hand like you can in starcraft. Jaedong made a specific decision with his opening and follow up, you can't do this with cards (only with bets! I'm a long time poker follower :D).
It's just stupid, because like you admitted, all-in HAS a negative connotation to it, it is also wrong in every regard, as you admit also. You know what pedantic means, right? You are agreeing that it is used incorrectly, but don't think its worth arguing.
Where did I say it was wrong in every regard? I've been specifically arguing that in this case in this game it actually truly was an all in because of the amount of combat unit production capable by both players, though in other cases you're technically right, because we've seen cheeses that did not end up being in a completely all or nothing situation that progressed to a normal game, like the 5 pool situation I referenced earlier -- but you've got a stick up your ass if you harp on it in the slightest. If you don't want people to call it an all-in then they'll just call it a cheese, which has worse connoations.
As for the reason you're arguing (this situation only had 2 outcomes thus qualifying it as an all-in) first of all, I strongly disagree, as would many more. Secondly, you don't have the game knowledge to make that call in the first place. Or maybe you are Jaedong or Flash or Bisu or a Professional Starcraft Coach on the TL forums arguing with some no-name. But probably not.
More people have disagreed with you in this thread than agreed with you, and I'm sure most people who agree with you would say you're being overly prudish to get all huffy about people calling it an all-in. No one likes someone who takes every little thing literally.
came in and immediately predicted a KT win over Oz. so surprised to see oz winning against kt, with jd winning over flash to top it off :O.
oh well, as long as the other guys of Oz shape up i would be happy. hope kt also shapes up too, since kt is probably the only team that can take out skt atm. hoping for oz to win skt though ^^
On June 15 2011 18:23 shadymmj wrote: something I don't understand is how flash keeps getting sniped in proleague. of course, jd deserved the win, and to tell the truth he needed it much more than flash did (he really should relax for now lol, screw the rest of KT).
i swear there's some kind of conspiracy as to how flash keeps meeting best, jd, fantasy, etc...the only people who have a good chance against him if they prepare enough to snipe him. and more often than not, that chance comes around. it's also very hard to understand how bisu keeps running into zergs.
The KT coach is really bad at making entries. Like, atrocious. When you compare KT's lineups to SKT and CJ's, it's like night and day.
For example, take KT vs SKT. Action was sent out on Alternative, which Bisu plays on extremely frequently. Now, Action played a good game, but you have to be nuts to think an average Zerg is your best shot at beating Bisu right now. The right thing to do there was either to send Stats, who has been successful in PvP recently and is 2-0 against Bisu, or throw some sacrificial lamb into the game so that Action could play an opponent he'd be more likely to beat later on. Instead he just sent out Action and he died. Another bad decision in that match came later when Flash was sent on Circuit Breaker into the waiting arms of Best, a very easy snipe given that Flash hadn't played yet and it was unlikely he would come out on Bloody Ridge.
In this match, we get the utterly bizarre decision to send Flash on Neo Aztec. Neo Aztec isn't an awful map for Terran, but it's not a good one either. Furthermore, at that point in the match, it seemed highly likely that Jaedong would be sent either on Neo Aztec or Circuit Breaker. Why would you ever risk matching Flash against Jaedong, given their head-to-head over their past two encounters and the overall strength of OZ's lineup? Flash versus any other player on OZ is almost certain victory, yet he is sent against the one player with a good shot of beating him. Why not send Roo or something and see if you can take advantage of Jaedong's ZvZ slump?
I don't think I even need to go into why sending Stats on Beltway when the only Terran OZ had left was Hiya (you know, that other Terran with good TvP) was completely idiotic. I don't think C-H on La Mancha was a good idea either, but that ended up working out because OZ sent their bad Terran instead of their good one.
It's absolutely true that KT's players are badly underperforming and losing to players they could be beating. But part of Proleague is making lineups that give you the best shot to get to 4 wins, even if it means dodging the opposing team's best player. KT doesn't do this.
I agree, although not even that would have saved this match. There are two good players in the KT lineup. CJ has been doing a good job, however.
If Jaedong mismicros and loses all his lurkers then his all in didn't work and it was still all in. If Flash survived the all in, went to attack and lost all his forces to lurkers, he is still going to win because it's 3 hatch undersaturated zerg vs Terran, and he just plain cannot produce enough high tier units out of 3 hatches with so few drones to stop the terran from remassing when he can't take a third. Terran can afford to make enough forces and SCVs at the same time if he survives that attack to completely contain Jaedong, otherwise he ggs because if you can't have enough income to produce out of your raxes you've lost, if you can you've won.
Yes you explained two of the situations with a whole bunch of personal opinions and theories thrown in. Him losing his lurkers that could win him the game doesn't make that attack 5 minutes ago still all-in. Because he could've won the game with those hypothetical lurkers. How does the terran remass with little to no SCVs? 6 Barracks and 2 Factories don't mean anything if you only have 4 SCVs mining minerals.
Even still, saying that you've explained those 2 possible situations, you still have about a billion other possible outcomes to work through, which I doubt you have worked out.
Also, I love the "Frankly, I highly doubt you have enough knowledge of this game," Right, so here's the problem: You do? You can, without a doubt, claim that there is no way this was an all in short of unrealistic extenuating circumstances? You do know that progamers themselves use the term all-in all the time, are you suddenly smarter than all of them? How many times has a progamer referred to something as an all or nothing attack and how many times have they said it wasn't actually all or nothing in their interivews(go read every kwanro and shine interview, or interview of someone who beat shine or kwanro)? The former is much more common than the latter. You're stating things based on basic logic, which is actually reasonable and applies to many kinds of cheeses and has happened, albeit rarely. But progamers refer to things as all in more often or not -- this is a failed line of reasoning from your standpoint.
I agree, I don't have the knowledge either. However I am still unwilling to accept that you actually believe in a game as complex as Starcraft that the game had only 2 possible outcomes. It simply isn't true. There are just too many factors involved.
About pro-gamers using it, yes they are human too. Professional athletes also use slang, and so does every other famous person in the world probably. My argument is that the slang term "all-in" is misused and its connotation means something that it really shouldn't in the world of competitive Starcraft.
This is a very bad comparison. You can't plan on drawing a certain hand like you can in starcraft. Jaedong made a specific decision with his opening and follow up, you can't do this with cards (only with bets! I'm a long time poker follower :D).
Well sure you can plan to draw a certain hand... that is what many build orders like cheese and "all-ins" are...
Originally you were going for one hand, but then you see something on the table that benefits you in a way that you didn't originally expect, so you bet on that hand instead. Jaedong was gonna expand, saw Flash out of place and decided to attack instead. (simplified of course)
Where did I say it was wrong in every regard? I've been specifically arguing that in this case in this game it actually truly was an all in because of the amount of combat unit production capable by both players, though in other cases you're technically right, because we've seen cheeses that did not end up being in a completely all or nothing situation that progressed to a normal game, like the 5 pool situation I referenced earlier -- but you've got a stick up your ass if you harp on it in the slightest. If you don't want people to call it an all-in then they'll just call it a cheese, which has worse connoations.
I was wrong in saying you agree that "all-in" is misused ALWAYS, but you agree it is misused most of the time then?
Even still, you claim this game to be a win or lose situation, when it simply wasn't. You keep saying "he has enough unit producing structures!" and stuff like that, well what if Jaedong nullified Flash's expansion before he lost his mutas, or if he killed some tech buildings or some production structures. You are still looking at it in such a narrow way. So many things could've been done differently in that single attack Jaedong did. Imo, there was a middle ground between winning and losing, and my point wasn't that I'm more qualified than you or a pro-gamer, its that I'm not making the assertion that there were only 2 possible outcomes of that attack: instant loss or instant death. You can't just claim that with the mask of "thats how TvZ works". So many things could've gone differently, certain tech structures dying, JD maybe backing off on some ling production to expand since he had already done considerable damage, production buildings dying, etc.
More people have disagreed with you in this thread than agreed with you, and I'm sure most people who agree with you would say you're being overly prudish to get all huffy about people calling it an all-in. No one likes someone who takes every little thing literally.
I'm not completely sure, but I believe the only person who directly quoted/referenced me was 1 person who said I was "100% correct" in my assertion(it was the post right after your first one), of course I won't take that at face value, however your claim is still incorrect.
I think I'm done with this argument it isn't getting anywhere and I don't think either of us are gonna change our minds, plus we're just filling up this thread, lates
On June 15 2011 18:23 shadymmj wrote: something I don't understand is how flash keeps getting sniped in proleague. of course, jd deserved the win, and to tell the truth he needed it much more than flash did (he really should relax for now lol, screw the rest of KT).
i swear there's some kind of conspiracy as to how flash keeps meeting best, jd, fantasy, etc...the only people who have a good chance against him if they prepare enough to snipe him. and more often than not, that chance comes around. it's also very hard to understand how bisu keeps running into zergs.
The KT coach is really bad at making entries. Like, atrocious. When you compare KT's lineups to SKT and CJ's, it's like night and day.
For example, take KT vs SKT. Action was sent out on Alternative, which Bisu plays on extremely frequently. Now, Action played a good game, but you have to be nuts to think an average Zerg is your best shot at beating Bisu right now. The right thing to do there was either to send Stats, who has been successful in PvP recently and is 2-0 against Bisu, or throw some sacrificial lamb into the game so that Action could play an opponent he'd be more likely to beat later on. Instead he just sent out Action and he died. Another bad decision in that match came later when Flash was sent on Circuit Breaker into the waiting arms of Best, a very easy snipe given that Flash hadn't played yet and it was unlikely he would come out on Bloody Ridge.
In this match, we get the utterly bizarre decision to send Flash on Neo Aztec. Neo Aztec isn't an awful map for Terran, but it's not a good one either. Furthermore, at that point in the match, it seemed highly likely that Jaedong would be sent either on Neo Aztec or Circuit Breaker. Why would you ever risk matching Flash against Jaedong, given their head-to-head over their past two encounters and the overall strength of OZ's lineup? Flash versus any other player on OZ is almost certain victory, yet he is sent against the one player with a good shot of beating him. Why not send Roo or something and see if you can take advantage of Jaedong's ZvZ slump?
I don't think I even need to go into why sending Stats on Beltway when the only Terran OZ had left was Hiya (you know, that other Terran with good TvP) was completely idiotic. I don't think C-H on La Mancha was a good idea either, but that ended up working out because OZ sent their bad Terran instead of their good one.
It's absolutely true that KT's players are badly underperforming and losing to players they could be beating. But part of Proleague is making lineups that give you the best shot to get to 4 wins, even if it means dodging the opposing team's best player. KT doesn't do this.
thing is, soo has played just as many games on alternative as bisu. given that terrans dont really appear on this map much lately, its either stats to have a good chance vs bisu and a pretty shallow chance vs soo since hes been dropping pvzs all over the place, or action for a decent chance against soo and a semi/kinda/maybe chance against bisu
jaedong hasnt played on aztec for awhile whereas killer has played his last 4 games on it, so i guess its reasonable to predict killer coming out again and thinking jaedong would come out on la mancha or circuit breakers again
but i guess its all just prediction and getting lucky, sometimes you might think ahead and send a tvz killer on icarus to get rid of a zerg but the other dude might think even more ahead and send out a protoss to do away with your attempt. or you might think ahead twice and just send our a zerg lol
Man, KT just keeps losing after R5 . I don't mind Flash losing to JD but this is like KT's 3rd/4th(?) loss in a row. They are just losing to the middle-ranked teams 1-4/2-4 too much unlike R5...
Everyone talking about JD vs Flash, while the gamewinner was another rather new player out of the famous Hwaesung Oz- Protossline. Why noone gives him credit? Poor Hyo
On June 15 2011 15:12 Winechu wrote: Really tough loss to stomach. No way KT is winning PL this year.
These guys need to shape up. Stats and CH need to be more consistent. Action and Tempest need to stop failing. Flash needs to turn on his godmode. The rookies need to improve quickly and do their part. Whatever happened to winning it all for Violet? :/ No resolve in their play at all.
Agreed completely. And the coach needs to start locking players in rooms again to force them to play. KT is crap this year. Never thought they could suck so bad. The rookies are not improving and Crazy-Hydra, one of the only real hopes for the team was nothing more than a flop. They dont have any good players except Flash and even he can't save the team.
Aside from that, I feel very happy for JD despite my usual support for Flash. Hopefully, this will make him come out of the slump.
As a Stars fan, I'd say we'll take CH back if you guys don't want him. He's 6-6 since he went over, which means he's a stable lineup player - and lest you forget, he got KT's only win in this match.
On June 15 2011 15:12 Winechu wrote: Really tough loss to stomach. No way KT is winning PL this year.
These guys need to shape up. Stats and CH need to be more consistent. Action and Tempest need to stop failing. Flash needs to turn on his godmode. The rookies need to improve quickly and do their part. Whatever happened to winning it all for Violet? :/ No resolve in their play at all.
Agreed completely. And the coach needs to start locking players in rooms again to force them to play. KT is crap this year. Never thought they could suck so bad. The rookies are not improving and Crazy-Hydra, one of the only real hopes for the team was nothing more than a flop. They dont have any good players except Flash and even he can't save the team.
Aside from that, I feel very happy for JD despite my usual support for Flash. Hopefully, this will make him come out of the slump.
As a Stars fan, I'd say we'll take CH back if you guys don't want him. He's 6-6 since he went over, which means he's a stable lineup player - and lest you forget, he got KT's only win in this match.
Uhh yeah i dunno man... Light is pretty good man..
On June 15 2011 15:12 Winechu wrote: Really tough loss to stomach. No way KT is winning PL this year.
These guys need to shape up. Stats and CH need to be more consistent. Action and Tempest need to stop failing. Flash needs to turn on his godmode. The rookies need to improve quickly and do their part. Whatever happened to winning it all for Violet? :/ No resolve in their play at all.
Agreed completely. And the coach needs to start locking players in rooms again to force them to play. KT is crap this year. Never thought they could suck so bad. The rookies are not improving and Crazy-Hydra, one of the only real hopes for the team was nothing more than a flop. They dont have any good players except Flash and even he can't save the team.
Aside from that, I feel very happy for JD despite my usual support for Flash. Hopefully, this will make him come out of the slump.
As a Stars fan, I'd say we'll take CH back if you guys don't want him. He's 6-6 since he went over, which means he's a stable lineup player - and lest you forget, he got KT's only win in this match.
Uhh yeah i dunno man... Light is pretty good man..
But we got Light from MBC, that didn't affect the CH thing at all. Unless you're suggesting Woongjin wouldn't pay both?
Good to see that somebody finally punished Flash for his early tendency to push the zerg's 3rd. Wished JD did that in the finals of the MSL instead of PL, though.
On June 15 2011 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Jaedong > Flash Best > Flash :D
just realised. at this point, flash has a losing record against best AND jaedong.
It's pretty meaningless when you consider how he does against them in a series.
I understand ur unhappy that Flash lost. but cmon those players deserve credit.. They have matched up well against Flash in their life-time.
Sure series are impt, thats why they are given many games. If Flash >>> Hydra, he rapes Hydra 3-0, chalking 3 points up in his/their personal record.
Suggesting that losing many Bo1 is meaningless and looking only at BoX (where Flash's strength is at) is pretty selective vision, imo.
Facts are Flash is having a losing head-to-head vs both Jaedong n BeSt. He might (likely) still be the better player, but he is behind, statistically. Pulling the "lol man this is not a series" everytime LYH lost gets old pretty fast (last game vs BeSt were the same, people keeps bringing back that 3-0 OSL)
On June 15 2011 14:28 iLoveKT wrote: what the hell was that at 9 flash...
probably expected the standard build but jaedong played smart, he knew flash will do this and that he cant defend the 2nd expo, thus he sacrificed expo for a timed attack, making use of the fact that with the army out, flash will have less units to defend in the main
Well stated Sir. Flash kinda got ahead of himself, and got overagressive. I was waiting for somebody to break Flash's 14cc after scout build, and it looks like JD managed to do just that.
effort game 5. We all know which game i'm talking about.
No. Effort game 5 was blind 14cc. Flash adapted to that loss by devising the scouted 14cc, and Jaedong lost to it every single time. Nobody won against Flash when he did the 14cc after early scout. This is the first time he lost.
On June 15 2011 14:28 iLoveKT wrote: what the hell was that at 9 flash...
probably expected the standard build but jaedong played smart, he knew flash will do this and that he cant defend the 2nd expo, thus he sacrificed expo for a timed attack, making use of the fact that with the army out, flash will have less units to defend in the main
Well stated Sir. Flash kinda got ahead of himself, and got overagressive. I was waiting for somebody to break Flash's 14cc after scout build, and it looks like JD managed to do just that.
effort game 5. We all know which game i'm talking about.
No. Effort game 5 was blind 14cc. Flash adapted to that loss by devising the scouted 14cc, and Jaedong lost to it every single time. Nobody won against Flash when he did the 14cc after early scout. This is the first time he lost.
WCG Korea game 2 (on Polaris Rhapsody). Flash went 14CC and lost. Also, game 4 of Bigfile MSL on Triathlon. Jaedong went 9 pool but Flash's scouting SCV didn't first JD's base on its first try.
And those are only games against Jaedong. There have been other players that have beaten him when he went 14cc (Flash vs. Zero on Benzene comes to mind).
Frankly, I highly doubt you have enough knowledge of this game to flat out claim there is no "break even" scenario in this particular situation. You aren't explaining "in detail" anything about this particular game, by the way. The two paragraphs in this gigantic response that actually analyze the game are so narrow-minded that it doesn't even begin to describe the range of possibilities that could've happened. You explain like 3 plausible situations whereas you leave out infinity more. Jaedong mismicros and loses his lurkers? Flash loses forces to stop lurkers that turns the game around and he loses the advantage he has after the "all-in" attack because of it.
If Jaedong mismicros and loses all his lurkers then his all in didn't work and it was still all in. If Flash survived the all in, went to attack and lost all his forces to lurkers, he is still going to win because it's 3 hatch undersaturated zerg vs Terran, and he just plain cannot produce enough high tier units out of 3 hatches with so few drones to stop the terran from remassing when he can't take a third. Terran can afford to make enough forces and SCVs at the same time if he survives that attack to completely contain Jaedong, otherwise he ggs because if you can't have enough income to produce out of your raxes you've lost, if you can you've won.
Also, I love the "Frankly, I highly doubt you have enough knowledge of this game," Right, so here's the problem: You do? You can, without a doubt, claim that there is no way this was an all in short of unrealistic extenuating circumstances? You do know that progamers themselves use the term all-in all the time, are you suddenly smarter than all of them? How many times has a progamer referred to something as an all or nothing attack and how many times have they said it wasn't actually all or nothing in their interivews(go read every kwanro and shine interview, or interview of someone who beat shine or kwanro)? The former is much more common than the latter. You're stating things based on basic logic, which is actually reasonable and applies to many kinds of cheeses and has happened, albeit rarely. But progamers refer to things as all in more often or not -- this is a failed line of reasoning from your standpoint.
You are playing poker, you need a queen to win, so its either queen and win or something else and lose. Two choices, thats it. In Starcraft you can micro a Jack into a queen and still pull it off, or make someone else lose their straight.
This is a very bad comparison. You can't plan on drawing a certain hand like you can in starcraft. Jaedong made a specific decision with his opening and follow up, you can't do this with cards (only with bets! I'm a long time poker follower :D).
It's just stupid, because like you admitted, all-in HAS a negative connotation to it, it is also wrong in every regard, as you admit also. You know what pedantic means, right? You are agreeing that it is used incorrectly, but don't think its worth arguing.
Where did I say it was wrong in every regard? I've been specifically arguing that in this case in this game it actually truly was an all in because of the amount of combat unit production capable by both players, though in other cases you're technically right, because we've seen cheeses that did not end up being in a completely all or nothing situation that progressed to a normal game, like the 5 pool situation I referenced earlier -- but you've got a stick up your ass if you harp on it in the slightest. If you don't want people to call it an all-in then they'll just call it a cheese, which has worse connoations.
As for the reason you're arguing (this situation only had 2 outcomes thus qualifying it as an all-in) first of all, I strongly disagree, as would many more. Secondly, you don't have the game knowledge to make that call in the first place. Or maybe you are Jaedong or Flash or Bisu or a Professional Starcraft Coach on the TL forums arguing with some no-name. But probably not.
More people have disagreed with you in this thread than agreed with you, and I'm sure most people who agree with you would say you're being overly prudish to get all huffy about people calling it an all-in. No one likes someone who takes every little thing literally.
Here's the problem with your logic. If JD focus fired the nat CC instead of going for an outright win, then JD has two secure bases fully saturated against. Flash's one base. This will give JD enough time to setup a contain while Flash's nat CC comes online. So, it will be 1 base T vs 2 base Z for a little while, which is even ground. This is why, this is not an all-in.
On June 15 2011 14:28 iLoveKT wrote: what the hell was that at 9 flash...
probably expected the standard build but jaedong played smart, he knew flash will do this and that he cant defend the 2nd expo, thus he sacrificed expo for a timed attack, making use of the fact that with the army out, flash will have less units to defend in the main
Well stated Sir. Flash kinda got ahead of himself, and got overagressive. I was waiting for somebody to break Flash's 14cc after scout build, and it looks like JD managed to do just that.
effort game 5. We all know which game i'm talking about.
No. Effort game 5 was blind 14cc. Flash adapted to that loss by devising the scouted 14cc, and Jaedong lost to it every single time. Nobody won against Flash when he did the 14cc after early scout. This is the first time he lost.
WCG Korea game 2 (on Polaris Rhapsody). Flash went 14CC and lost. Also, game 4 of Bigfile MSL on Triathlon. Jaedong went 9 pool but Flash's scouting SCV didn't first JD's base on its first try.
And those are only games against Jaedong. There have been other players that have beaten him when he went 14cc (Flash vs. Zero on Benzene comes to mind).
The argument is not about 14cc at all. It's scouted 14cc vs unscouted 14cc.
Still love you Moktira <3 I hope the source problem goes away soon
Also, can somebody explain to me the difference between a timing attack and an all-in when it comes to Zerg? Because I always thought the Zerg version of a timing attack was an all-in? As such, I don't think Zerg going all-in counts as a negative, it's just part of how the race works.
On June 15 2011 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Jaedong > Flash Best > Flash :D
just realised. at this point, flash has a losing record against best AND jaedong.
It's pretty meaningless when you consider how he does against them in a series.
I understand ur unhappy that Flash lost. but cmon those players deserve credit.. They have matched up well against Flash in their life-time.
Sure series are impt, thats why they are given many games. If Flash >>> Hydra, he rapes Hydra 3-0, chalking 3 points up in his/their personal record.
Suggesting that losing many Bo1 is meaningless and looking only at BoX (where Flash's strength is at) is pretty selective vision, imo.
Facts are Flash is having a losing head-to-head vs both Jaedong n BeSt. He might (likely) still be the better player, but he is behind, statistically. Pulling the "lol man this is not a series" everytime LYH lost gets old pretty fast (last game vs BeSt were the same, people keeps bringing back that 3-0 OSL)
This discussion is silly. BeSt and Jaedong have a winning head-to-head versus Flash by only one game each, which isn't much at all.
On June 15 2011 23:56 Holgerius wrote: Using words such as ''might be'' regarding Flash's superiority as a player over Best is an insult.
Not really if you look at the PvT matchup only. Best have the hottest PvT right now. Bisu have a similar win-rate, but he have only shown weakness against Flash and haven't beaten him in a standard game lately.
On June 15 2011 12:55 Dakkas wrote: As unfortunate as it is for me to say but if Dong is sent against Flash then he's going to get rolled completely. Revenge for the group of death!
On June 15 2011 14:28 iLoveKT wrote: what the hell was that at 9 flash...
probably expected the standard build but jaedong played smart, he knew flash will do this and that he cant defend the 2nd expo, thus he sacrificed expo for a timed attack, making use of the fact that with the army out, flash will have less units to defend in the main
Well stated Sir. Flash kinda got ahead of himself, and got overagressive. I was waiting for somebody to break Flash's 14cc after scout build, and it looks like JD managed to do just that.
effort game 5. We all know which game i'm talking about.
No. Effort game 5 was blind 14cc. Flash adapted to that loss by devising the scouted 14cc, and Jaedong lost to it every single time. Nobody won against Flash when he did the 14cc after early scout. This is the first time he lost.
WCG Korea game 2 (on Polaris Rhapsody). Flash went 14CC and lost. Also, game 4 of Bigfile MSL on Triathlon. Jaedong went 9 pool but Flash's scouting SCV didn't first JD's base on its first try.
And those are only games against Jaedong. There have been other players that have beaten him when he went 14cc (Flash vs. Zero on Benzene comes to mind).
The argument is not about 14cc at all. It's scouted 14cc vs unscouted 14cc.
Yeah, and you claimed he never lost when he did a scouted 14CC until yesterday's game, and I'm giving you examples where he did. o_O
On June 15 2011 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Jaedong > Flash Best > Flash :D
just realised. at this point, flash has a losing record against best AND jaedong.
It's pretty meaningless when you consider how he does against them in a series.
I understand ur unhappy that Flash lost. but cmon those players deserve credit.. They have matched up well against Flash in their life-time.
Sure series are impt, thats why they are given many games. If Flash >>> Hydra, he rapes Hydra 3-0, chalking 3 points up in his/their personal record.
Suggesting that losing many Bo1 is meaningless and looking only at BoX (where Flash's strength is at) is pretty selective vision, imo.
Facts are Flash is having a losing head-to-head vs both Jaedong n BeSt. He might (likely) still be the better player, but he is behind, statistically. Pulling the "lol man this is not a series" everytime LYH lost gets old pretty fast (last game vs BeSt were the same, people keeps bringing back that 3-0 OSL)
Unhappy that Flash lost? I think JD deserves a break after his exit from MSL and then his mini loss streak. Flash on the other hand shouldn't be called upon to salvage his teams frankly hopeless proleague matches, it is good if he gets to celebrate after winning one of his most important titles instead of, shock, preparing to face off against his rival again.
What you are suggesting is however ridiculous. Best would never stand a chance against a prepared Flash in a Bo5. Jaedong is arguably on par skillwise with Flash head-to-head in key matches but to suggest a degree of doubt that Flash is better than Best is just...absurd.
Best only has a winning record because he is specifically sent out to snipe an overworked/unprepared LYH, that's all. We all know what happens if Best meets some other random dude instead.
SKT definitely has a big advantage in preparation for proleague matches because they have many potential snipers against players like Flash and Jaedong, and also their players generally haven't been getting far in individual leagues which pretty much means they almost exclusively prepare for proleague.
Why are people even bringing up Best? He's such a one-dimensional player. The one time where Flash actually came well prepared, Best got embarrassed. In fact, I think Bisu has a much better chance at beating Flash in a Bo5 compared to Best.
On June 15 2011 14:28 iLoveKT wrote: what the hell was that at 9 flash...
probably expected the standard build but jaedong played smart, he knew flash will do this and that he cant defend the 2nd expo, thus he sacrificed expo for a timed attack, making use of the fact that with the army out, flash will have less units to defend in the main
Well stated Sir. Flash kinda got ahead of himself, and got overagressive. I was waiting for somebody to break Flash's 14cc after scout build, and it looks like JD managed to do just that.
effort game 5. We all know which game i'm talking about.
No. Effort game 5 was blind 14cc. Flash adapted to that loss by devising the scouted 14cc, and Jaedong lost to it every single time. Nobody won against Flash when he did the 14cc after early scout. This is the first time he lost.
WCG Korea game 2 (on Polaris Rhapsody). Flash went 14CC and lost. Also, game 4 of Bigfile MSL on Triathlon. Jaedong went 9 pool but Flash's scouting SCV didn't first JD's base on its first try.
And those are only games against Jaedong. There have been other players that have beaten him when he went 14cc (Flash vs. Zero on Benzene comes to mind).
The argument is not about 14cc at all. It's scouted 14cc vs unscouted 14cc.
Yeah, and you claimed he never lost when he did a scouted 14CC until yesterday's game, and I'm giving you examples where he did. o_O
Also you have to consider walled off versus unwalled 14cc.
In this particular game, while Jaedong didn't 3 hatch because he didn't scout 14cc in time, he did at least 13 pool , another way zerg have adjusted to 14cc somewhat. That and and a timing push when Flash was trying to prevent a 3rd base was just a great head game on Jaedong's part.
Frankly, I highly doubt you have enough knowledge of this game to flat out claim there is no "break even" scenario in this particular situation. You aren't explaining "in detail" anything about this particular game, by the way. The two paragraphs in this gigantic response that actually analyze the game are so narrow-minded that it doesn't even begin to describe the range of possibilities that could've happened. You explain like 3 plausible situations whereas you leave out infinity more. Jaedong mismicros and loses his lurkers? Flash loses forces to stop lurkers that turns the game around and he loses the advantage he has after the "all-in" attack because of it.
If Jaedong mismicros and loses all his lurkers then his all in didn't work and it was still all in. If Flash survived the all in, went to attack and lost all his forces to lurkers, he is still going to win because it's 3 hatch undersaturated zerg vs Terran, and he just plain cannot produce enough high tier units out of 3 hatches with so few drones to stop the terran from remassing when he can't take a third. Terran can afford to make enough forces and SCVs at the same time if he survives that attack to completely contain Jaedong, otherwise he ggs because if you can't have enough income to produce out of your raxes you've lost, if you can you've won.
Also, I love the "Frankly, I highly doubt you have enough knowledge of this game," Right, so here's the problem: You do? You can, without a doubt, claim that there is no way this was an all in short of unrealistic extenuating circumstances? You do know that progamers themselves use the term all-in all the time, are you suddenly smarter than all of them? How many times has a progamer referred to something as an all or nothing attack and how many times have they said it wasn't actually all or nothing in their interivews(go read every kwanro and shine interview, or interview of someone who beat shine or kwanro)? The former is much more common than the latter. You're stating things based on basic logic, which is actually reasonable and applies to many kinds of cheeses and has happened, albeit rarely. But progamers refer to things as all in more often or not -- this is a failed line of reasoning from your standpoint.
You are playing poker, you need a queen to win, so its either queen and win or something else and lose. Two choices, thats it. In Starcraft you can micro a Jack into a queen and still pull it off, or make someone else lose their straight.
This is a very bad comparison. You can't plan on drawing a certain hand like you can in starcraft. Jaedong made a specific decision with his opening and follow up, you can't do this with cards (only with bets! I'm a long time poker follower :D).
It's just stupid, because like you admitted, all-in HAS a negative connotation to it, it is also wrong in every regard, as you admit also. You know what pedantic means, right? You are agreeing that it is used incorrectly, but don't think its worth arguing.
Where did I say it was wrong in every regard? I've been specifically arguing that in this case in this game it actually truly was an all in because of the amount of combat unit production capable by both players, though in other cases you're technically right, because we've seen cheeses that did not end up being in a completely all or nothing situation that progressed to a normal game, like the 5 pool situation I referenced earlier -- but you've got a stick up your ass if you harp on it in the slightest. If you don't want people to call it an all-in then they'll just call it a cheese, which has worse connoations.
As for the reason you're arguing (this situation only had 2 outcomes thus qualifying it as an all-in) first of all, I strongly disagree, as would many more. Secondly, you don't have the game knowledge to make that call in the first place. Or maybe you are Jaedong or Flash or Bisu or a Professional Starcraft Coach on the TL forums arguing with some no-name. But probably not.
More people have disagreed with you in this thread than agreed with you, and I'm sure most people who agree with you would say you're being overly prudish to get all huffy about people calling it an all-in. No one likes someone who takes every little thing literally.
Here's the problem with your logic. If JD focus fired the nat CC instead of going for an outright win, then JD has two secure bases fully saturated against. Flash's one base. This will give JD enough time to setup a contain while Flash's nat CC comes online. So, it will be 1 base T vs 2 base Z for a little while, which is even ground. This is why, this is not an all-in.
If Jaedong does this he loses because terran can repair CCs. This was a simple, cut and dry situation of "If Flash can continue making units, he wins. If he can't, he dies to lurkers." Because the Mutas themselves can't really kill off buildings fast enough before getting target fired. Jaedong did the one thing he could, and that was harass Flash into ineffectiveness with mutas. I know SC seems so much more complicated than that but it's just how 20drone 3hatch zerg works against terran with a factory and 3 raxes. There's no situation where Jaedong just backs up and goes for a macro game that Flash isn't already crippled to the point of uselessness.
On June 16 2011 01:43 DarkMatter_ wrote: SKT definitely has a big advantage in preparation for proleague matches because they have many potential snipers against players like Flash and Jaedong, and also their players generally haven't been getting far in individual leagues which pretty much means they almost exclusively prepare for proleague.
Why are people even bringing up Best? He's such a one-dimensional player. The one time where Flash actually came well prepared, Best got embarrassed. In fact, I think Bisu has a much better chance at beating Flash in a Bo5 compared to Best.
Which one time? The first game of the season? Im sure Flash had plenty of time to rest n prepare since its the first game of the whole season, Indiv leagues havnt even started yet at the time.
No point arguing on "if"s and excuses (or reasons, from your perspective).. You believe in Flash' absolute domination, and i don't, so i guess we will just have to agree to disagree. To Flash defence, he is one of the few who were crowned Bonjwa, and that speak volumes about his strength. But there are players who have played a non-trivial amount of game vs him (Jaedong, BeSt, Stork) and came out ahead overall, my point is just that.
On June 15 2011 23:47 ffreakk wrote: Facts are Flash is having a losing head-to-head vs Jaedong.
No? Flash - JD // 24 wins - 23 losses (51.06%)
They're talking about standard league games on TLPD, which is 22 - 21 in Jaedong's favor. Even if you did count the GOM Star Invitation (and I have no idea if you should or not), I don't think anyone would seriously argue that the All-Star game should count.
That said, the WCG LA games from last year aren't even listed in TLPD, and Flash won that series 2 - 1.
On June 16 2011 01:43 DarkMatter_ wrote: SKT definitely has a big advantage in preparation for proleague matches because they have many potential snipers against players like Flash and Jaedong, and also their players generally haven't been getting far in individual leagues which pretty much means they almost exclusively prepare for proleague.
Why are people even bringing up Best? He's such a one-dimensional player. The one time where Flash actually came well prepared, Best got embarrassed. In fact, I think Bisu has a much better chance at beating Flash in a Bo5 compared to Best.
Which one time? The first game of the season? Im sure Flash had plenty of time to rest n prepare since its the first game of the whole season, Indiv leagues havnt even started yet at the time.
No point arguing on "if"s and excuses (or reasons, from your perspective).. You believe in Flash' absolute domination, and i don't, so i guess we will just have to agree to disagree. To Flash defence, he is one of the few who were crowned Bonjwa, and that speak volumes about his strength. But there are players who have played a non-trivial amount of game vs him (Jaedong, BeSt, Stork) and came out ahead overall, my point is just that.
I think it's the one where Flash owned best with dropships to the point where best was almost in tears. Just type in spl flash vs best, you should find it. Flash completely destroys best.
On June 16 2011 04:14 Kenpachi wrote: Jaedong figured out Flash!?
No, he just caught him off guard imho.
Flash had his M&M force at JD's potential third but instead Jaedong went for an all-inish 2 base muta/ling attack. I feel like it was more of a desperation move by JD. There's no way he could have known Flash would leave his forces at the other end of the map.
If he actually did scout it it's a different matter, but as far as I could see it that wasn't the case.
On June 16 2011 01:43 DarkMatter_ wrote: SKT definitely has a big advantage in preparation for proleague matches because they have many potential snipers against players like Flash and Jaedong, and also their players generally haven't been getting far in individual leagues which pretty much means they almost exclusively prepare for proleague.
Why are people even bringing up Best? He's such a one-dimensional player. The one time where Flash actually came well prepared, Best got embarrassed. In fact, I think Bisu has a much better chance at beating Flash in a Bo5 compared to Best.
Which one time? The first game of the season? Im sure Flash had plenty of time to rest n prepare since its the first game of the whole season, Indiv leagues havnt even started yet at the time.
No point arguing on "if"s and excuses (or reasons, from your perspective).. You believe in Flash' absolute domination, and i don't, so i guess we will just have to agree to disagree. To Flash defence, he is one of the few who were crowned Bonjwa, and that speak volumes about his strength. But there are players who have played a non-trivial amount of game vs him (Jaedong, BeSt, Stork) and came out ahead overall, my point is just that.
I think it's the one where Flash owned best with dropships to the point where best was almost in tears. Just type in spl flash vs best, you should find it. Flash completely destroys best.
Yea i know he was talking about that game, but that was what? In the middle of the season? How can that compare to the amount of preparation that Flash had on the very first match of the season?
On June 16 2011 04:14 Kenpachi wrote: Jaedong figured out Flash!?
No, he just caught him off guard imho.
Flash had his M&M force at JD's potential third but instead Jaedong went for an all-inish 2 base muta/ling attack. I feel like it was more of a desperation move by JD. There's no way he could have known Flash would leave his forces at the other end of the map.
If he actually did scout it it's a different matter, but as far as I could see it that wasn't the case.
He knew Flash's army didn't retreat, because after that group of MnM left Flash's base, Jaedong had a control group of lings waiting outside Flash's natural. Jaedong decided to ignore that group of MnM and take advantage of the fact that Flash had minimal defenses in his main.
I don't know what you mean by calling it a desperation move. You make it sound like he just a-moved his entire army into Flash's base with the blind hope that Flash didn't have sufficient defense. He saw an opening in Flash's defense and exploited it with some aggressive play.
On June 16 2011 01:43 DarkMatter_ wrote: SKT definitely has a big advantage in preparation for proleague matches because they have many potential snipers against players like Flash and Jaedong, and also their players generally haven't been getting far in individual leagues which pretty much means they almost exclusively prepare for proleague.
Why are people even bringing up Best? He's such a one-dimensional player. The one time where Flash actually came well prepared, Best got embarrassed. In fact, I think Bisu has a much better chance at beating Flash in a Bo5 compared to Best.
Which one time? The first game of the season? Im sure Flash had plenty of time to rest n prepare since its the first game of the whole season, Indiv leagues havnt even started yet at the time.
No point arguing on "if"s and excuses (or reasons, from your perspective).. You believe in Flash' absolute domination, and i don't, so i guess we will just have to agree to disagree. To Flash defence, he is one of the few who were crowned Bonjwa, and that speak volumes about his strength. But there are players who have played a non-trivial amount of game vs him (Jaedong, BeSt, Stork) and came out ahead overall, my point is just that.
I think it's the one where Flash owned best with dropships to the point where best was almost in tears. Just type in spl flash vs best, you should find it. Flash completely destroys best.
Yea i know he was talking about that game, but that was what? In the middle of the season? How can that compare to the amount of preparation that Flash had on the very first match of the season?
Sad to burst your bubble, but the first game of the season was only about a week after WCG grand finals, where flash had claimed that he had been shopping the whole time. He also spent some time rescuing Kal, and playing on WCG maps (destination for example) while Best was probably practicing on the proleague maps(like icarus). I think it's important to know that no one has beaten Flash is a best of series in over a year. (minus the WCG korea finals where he mismicroed SCVs) The Nate MSL series between the two shows that Flash is indeed superior to best.
I like both Flash and BeSt, but I feel like the Flash fanboys are getting kind of ridiculous. Yes, Flash is obviously a better player than BeSt. BeSt is a macro monster and has managed to take a few games off of Flash. Why do people feel the need to jump to Flash's defense constantly whenever he loses a game? BeSt outplayed Flash a few times, even though Flash is considerably better overall and would most likely beat BeSt in a BO5. Not sure why there needs to be a huge argument about it...
Edit: Of course, people are defending BeSt as well, but I'm somehow more annoyed by the Flash fanboys because it seems to be an ongoing trend whenever he happens to lose...
On June 16 2011 03:58 blubbdavid wrote: Finally, was about time. Maybe he pretended a slump just to humiliate Flash even farther. But nothing against Flash...+ Show Spoiler +
Just kidding, as a JD-fan I know how you feel right now. Several days ago, it was the same for me.
Lol, I'm not a Flash fanboy, just a fan. At least JD's back in form - I support JD as well. I'm not so much a supporter of one team/player, just good Starcraft in general.
On June 16 2011 01:43 DarkMatter_ wrote: SKT definitely has a big advantage in preparation for proleague matches because they have many potential snipers against players like Flash and Jaedong, and also their players generally haven't been getting far in individual leagues which pretty much means they almost exclusively prepare for proleague.
Why are people even bringing up Best? He's such a one-dimensional player. The one time where Flash actually came well prepared, Best got embarrassed. In fact, I think Bisu has a much better chance at beating Flash in a Bo5 compared to Best.
Which one time? The first game of the season? Im sure Flash had plenty of time to rest n prepare since its the first game of the whole season, Indiv leagues havnt even started yet at the time.
No point arguing on "if"s and excuses (or reasons, from your perspective).. You believe in Flash' absolute domination, and i don't, so i guess we will just have to agree to disagree. To Flash defence, he is one of the few who were crowned Bonjwa, and that speak volumes about his strength. But there are players who have played a non-trivial amount of game vs him (Jaedong, BeSt, Stork) and came out ahead overall, my point is just that.
I think it's the one where Flash owned best with dropships to the point where best was almost in tears. Just type in spl flash vs best, you should find it. Flash completely destroys best.
Yea i know he was talking about that game, but that was what? In the middle of the season? How can that compare to the amount of preparation that Flash had on the very first match of the season?
No, wait, what? Are you talking about that season or this season? It seems you're saying Flash didn't have much preparation in the middle of the season, which only goes to support our point more.
On June 16 2011 01:43 DarkMatter_ wrote: SKT definitely has a big advantage in preparation for proleague matches because they have many potential snipers against players like Flash and Jaedong, and also their players generally haven't been getting far in individual leagues which pretty much means they almost exclusively prepare for proleague.
Why are people even bringing up Best? He's such a one-dimensional player. The one time where Flash actually came well prepared, Best got embarrassed. In fact, I think Bisu has a much better chance at beating Flash in a Bo5 compared to Best.
Which one time? The first game of the season? Im sure Flash had plenty of time to rest n prepare since its the first game of the whole season, Indiv leagues havnt even started yet at the time.
No point arguing on "if"s and excuses (or reasons, from your perspective).. You believe in Flash' absolute domination, and i don't, so i guess we will just have to agree to disagree. To Flash defence, he is one of the few who were crowned Bonjwa, and that speak volumes about his strength. But there are players who have played a non-trivial amount of game vs him (Jaedong, BeSt, Stork) and came out ahead overall, my point is just that.
Flash is the most superior player since oov when he is specifically preparing for one player. It's why he 3-0'd his "counter" in Best in MSL (which you seem either unaware of or don't remember), why he has beaten Jaedong in their last 3 Bo5s, and why he solemnly crushed zero and hydra in MSL. It is completely reasonable for him to drop some games when people prepare specifically for him, especially in fashions such as this. Hyuk's freaking beaten him with midgame all-ins before, anyone can lose to stuff like this. Jaedong's execution just makes it far more likely to work.
Flash would be nigh unstoppable without the phantom pairings that proleague was forced to do. I guess we can thank savior for that, lol.
On June 15 2011 22:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Jaedong > Flash Best > Flash :D
just realised. at this point, flash has a losing record against best AND jaedong.
It's pretty meaningless when you consider how he does against them in a series.
I believe that's an even 3-3 in BO5s.
That's probably true...but series as a whole includes Bo3s, and Flash displays quite a dominance in that categoy... Off the top of my head: Bacchus 08, Intel Classic, Ever 09, and (I think) the most recent WCG, right?
Both are incredibly skilled BoX players, so it's always interesting to analyze the preparation and execution involved in their matches.
MY GOSH!!! I was having a bad day but just saw the results and couldn't help but smile! He really needed this more than Flash (although I like Flash too ahhh)
On June 16 2011 06:02 Mumei wrote: I was just looking at Flash's vZ page, and noticed that it has been about 3.5 months since Flash lost to a Zerg not named Jaedong.
and calm was playing zvt to his full potential that game
But making excuses for flash is dumb, if he lost he lost.
Arguing that best is better than flash is just... dumb. Fanboy or not you cant argue with results
I dont think any1 ever said that BeSt is the better play, at least not in this thread -.-.. People simply find the the need to argue and fight everytime Flash's name is not accompanied with praises and reverence.
There is absolutely no point comparing a Terran player to a Protoss player, they do not play the same race, there's no way to compare, end of discussion.
Comparing Flash vs Best is hard because its two different races...but you can tell how much difficulty he is against his opponents and the impact he has made on the pro scene by how many semi/final appearances and awards they've won, and we all know who won that.
On June 16 2011 07:30 Archers_bane wrote: Comparing Flash vs Best is hard because its two different races...but you can tell how much difficulty he is against his opponents and the impact he has made on the pro scene by how many semi/final appearances and awards they've won, and we all know who won that.
They do not play the same race, they are not comparable both game-wise and result-wise. Let's say beSt has better macro than Flash but how the heck can we compare Protoss macro and Terran macro ??? And let's say Flash won much more golds than BeSt but he doesn't play the same race as BeSt, how can we say those "results" are fair for BeSt ??? In fact there is no absolute way to compare, and thus they are not comparable.
On June 16 2011 06:02 Mumei wrote: I was just looking at Flash's vZ page, and noticed that it has been about 3.5 months since Flash lost to a Zerg not named Jaedong.
and calm was playing zvt to his full potential that game
But making excuses for flash is dumb, if he lost he lost.
Arguing that best is better than flash is just... dumb. Fanboy or not you cant argue with results
On June 16 2011 07:50 Holgerius wrote: So, Best has 0 titles just because he plays Protoss?
And why not ? In fact how can you know he wouldn't win titles if he didn't start with P ? I can say he would have won against July and won his title if he had not been a Protoss, and he would not get eliminated by Zergs in indv leagues later. The point is, there is no way to compare a P to a T, since every criterias can be rendered pointless because of the racial difference.
On June 15 2011 14:28 iLoveKT wrote: what the hell was that at 9 flash...
probably expected the standard build but jaedong played smart, he knew flash will do this and that he cant defend the 2nd expo, thus he sacrificed expo for a timed attack, making use of the fact that with the army out, flash will have less units to defend in the main
Well stated Sir. Flash kinda got ahead of himself, and got overagressive. I was waiting for somebody to break Flash's 14cc after scout build, and it looks like JD managed to do just that.
effort game 5. We all know which game i'm talking about.
No. Effort game 5 was blind 14cc. Flash adapted to that loss by devising the scouted 14cc, and Jaedong lost to it every single time. Nobody won against Flash when he did the 14cc after early scout. This is the first time he lost.
WCG Korea game 2 (on Polaris Rhapsody). Flash went 14CC and lost. Also, game 4 of Bigfile MSL on Triathlon. Jaedong went 9 pool but Flash's scouting SCV didn't first JD's base on its first try.
And those are only games against Jaedong. There have been other players that have beaten him when he went 14cc (Flash vs. Zero on Benzene comes to mind).
The argument is not about 14cc at all. It's scouted 14cc vs unscouted 14cc.
Yeah, and you claimed he never lost when he did a scouted 14CC until yesterday's game, and I'm giving you examples where he did. o_O
My bad. You were right on the money.
In my defense, I was macroing work, sports radio, a rubik's cube and lunch and my TL micro slipped a bit.
On June 15 2011 12:55 Dakkas wrote: As unfortunate as it is for me to say but if Dong is sent against Flash then he's going to get rolled completely. Revenge for the group of death!
aaaahAHAHAHA!
JAEDONGGGGGGGGG!!
My words have been eaten. And they were very bitter
On June 16 2011 04:14 Kenpachi wrote: Jaedong figured out Flash!?
No, he just caught him off guard imho.
Flash had his M&M force at JD's potential third but instead Jaedong went for an all-inish 2 base muta/ling attack. I feel like it was more of a desperation move by JD. There's no way he could have known Flash would leave his forces at the other end of the map.
If he actually did scout it it's a different matter, but as far as I could see it that wasn't the case.
He knew Flash's army didn't retreat, because after that group of MnM left Flash's base, Jaedong had a control group of lings waiting outside Flash's natural. Jaedong decided to ignore that group of MnM and take advantage of the fact that Flash had minimal defenses in his main.
I don't know what you mean by calling it a desperation move. You make it sound like he just a-moved his entire army into Flash's base with the blind hope that Flash didn't have sufficient defense. He saw an opening in Flash's defense and exploited it with some aggressive play.
On June 16 2011 05:15 Hero.SP wrote: No, he didn't know. If he would know he would send mutas and lings at the same time. Lings did a runby, passing trough bunker.
Jaedong had very good intel on Flash's army the whole game due to the constant ling probes. (Incidentally, that made it worth it even when he was apparently just suiciding them into the firebats).
The other thing the ling harass accomplished was maintaining scouting on and control of the map. When Jaedong's mutas came out he knew most of Flash's army wasn't at the main. I think he went in with maybe fewer mutas than he might have waited for otherwise, and that was a "snap decision", but not "desperation": it was based on scouting. While it's true he didn't attack with the lings immediately, I think if he had he would have just suicided them into the bunker & small army at the nat, which would be ineffective as an attack. Once Flash pulled the army away from his nat choke to defend against the mutas, the lings came in and did their thing.
(Since someone brought up BeSt: I'd compare this to the game against BeSt where Flash tried his pre-emptive EMP trick, only to find that BeSt had macro'd up more templar than expected when the armies engaged, and lose. Flash here tried to stall the 3rd (probably a map-specific strategy due to the problems of dealing with a spread-out Zerg on Aztec in mid-game and later), which he did. But he still lost to Jaedong's scouting, reaction, and (apparently) getting some mutas out faster than Flash anticipated the attack coming.)
On June 15 2011 14:36 champignones wrote: its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from jaedong when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt.
JD won macro games from FLash many times, in fact, it is Flash who got quick timing wins from JD, lol. If you watch their games carefully you'll agree with that, whenever JD plays macro against Flash he wins, and watch their WCG match on Tau Cross) When JD went down to 120 or so supply, and Flash still had like 180. wow, what a game!
I definitely feel like it's Jaedong who has the upper-hand in a lategame very standard bio TvZ. Including that Tau Cross game and the game in the blackout MSLs.
Meanwhile Flash now has a whole series of title wins based on eco-risk midgame pushes which are invincible to almost any Z player. Plus a lot of other strange mindgame games too. However i favour Jaedong in a straight up lategame equal bio TvZ on a fair map. His multitasking pushes it over the edge, in my opinion.
By the way great job from Oz: the 3 A team main players plus the P with the most potential all getting wins, i like it. no fucking Perfectman in sight.
Flash will be on next week's Bnet Attack (23rd June, 6pm KST). I'm not sure if there will be a stream because MBC streams/VODs are hard to come by lately.
One question about the Jaedong vs. Flash on neo aztec. How did JD know that Flash's mm army was so far away from his base. JD had no vision whatsoever on the middle of the map or the zergs expansion area, so Flash's mm could've been a lot closer to his main base given JD's vision and info.
On June 17 2011 04:07 Rustymike wrote: One question about the Jaedong vs. Flash on neo aztec. How did JD know that Flash's mm army was so far away from his base. JD had no vision whatsoever on the middle of the map or the zergs expansion area, so Flash's mm could've been a lot closer to his main base given JD's vision and info.
I don't think he knew it but he did know that if he doesn't do something he will be significantly behind. Flash had opened 14CC, killed a ton of lings, forced sunkens, etc.
On June 17 2011 04:07 Rustymike wrote: One question about the Jaedong vs. Flash on neo aztec. How did JD know that Flash's mm army was so far away from his base. JD had no vision whatsoever on the middle of the map or the zergs expansion area, so Flash's mm could've been a lot closer to his main base given JD's vision and info.
I don't think he knew it but he did know that if he doesn't do something he will be significantly behind. Flash had opened 14CC, killed a ton of lings, forced sunkens, etc.
Yeah, good point. That bunker that flash put down on the 3th exp of zerg was a nice little twist though, gonna give him the credit for that.
On June 17 2011 04:07 Rustymike wrote: One question about the Jaedong vs. Flash on neo aztec. How did JD know that Flash's mm army was so far away from his base. JD had no vision whatsoever on the middle of the map or the zergs expansion area, so Flash's mm could've been a lot closer to his main base given JD's vision and info.
My read is that he knew (b/c of ling probes, map control, etc.) that the army had moved out. That gave him a window because a) either the army was far away and he could hammer Flash's main or b) the army was close but Flash would have to pull it back, JD's lings would see it coming back, and give him time to pull out the mutas. We got scenario a.
On June 17 2011 08:39 Fenrax wrote: I just watched Killer vs. Action. How does this only have a 3 star rating? It was at least spectacular. Imo a clear recommendation.
On June 17 2011 08:39 Fenrax wrote: I just watched Killer vs. Action. How does this only have a 3 star rating? It was at least spectacular. Imo a clear recommendation.
I thought the first half was pretty boring.
And the second half wasn't special either. Neither player is very good at Hive play and they kept killing off each other's expos, so they never got past around 90 supply each. Probably the worst Hive ZvZ I've seen. But at least it went to Hive, so 3 stars out of 5 is cool.
i totally don't understand that flash vs jaedong game. why did flash have his mm group like, way out in teh middle of nowhere, and build a bunker there too??????
then all those lings streamed in and it was pretty much GG. what was flash doing with his army and bunker in the middle of nowhere?
On June 17 2011 20:11 LoneWolf.Alpha wrote: i totally don't understand that flash vs jaedong game. why did flash have his mm group like, way out in teh middle of nowhere, and build a bunker there too??????
then all those lings streamed in and it was pretty much GG. what was flash doing with his army and bunker in the middle of nowhere?
I hope this is the beginning of a mini revival from OZ.
I liked the mind games riday. Jaedong would have almost certainly lost if he'd played normally and tried to take the third which Flash was hell bent on stopping. Actually quite surprised that Jaedong was flexible enough to call the bluff and stay on 2 base an attack so heavily. I was losing faith a bit in Jaedongs recent decision making or more accurately his stubborn to just do the same build over and over. It must be so hard to constituently win when your opponent knows what you are gonna do (MSL exit).
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GQ1h0.png)
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Crazy-Hydra < La Mancha > 
Lomo
Stats < Neo Beltway > ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/9k8o2.png)
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Action looks like his dreams just got destroyed. It was an entertaining zvz, a shame he lost. I was hoping he would win, as he has won so few games this season.
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