EPTSaw Flash's name on the other side, exploded.
Went to the specific LR and found the perfect description of the game.
On June 15 2011 14:25 flamewheel wrote:
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/Happy2.gif)
[SPL] KT Rolster vs Hwaseung OZ - Page 31
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shucklesors
Singapore1176 Posts
Saw Flash's name on the other side, exploded. Went to the specific LR and found the perfect description of the game. | ||
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gimmeateeshitkent
Australia80 Posts
On June 15 2011 18:23 shadymmj wrote: something I don't understand is how flash keeps getting sniped in proleague. of course, jd deserved the win, and to tell the truth he needed it much more than flash did (he really should relax for now lol, screw the rest of KT). i swear there's some kind of conspiracy as to how flash keeps meeting best, jd, fantasy, etc...the only people who have a good chance against him if they prepare enough to snipe him. and more often than not, that chance comes around. it's also very hard to understand how bisu keeps running into zergs. well he comes out alot on zergy maps like aztec and alternative so i guess hes destined to meet more zergs on most | ||
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scrubtastic
1166 Posts
On June 15 2011 18:23 shadymmj wrote: something I don't understand is how flash keeps getting sniped in proleague. of course, jd deserved the win, and to tell the truth he needed it much more than flash did (he really should relax for now lol, screw the rest of KT). i swear there's some kind of conspiracy as to how flash keeps meeting best, jd, fantasy, etc...the only people who have a good chance against him if they prepare enough to snipe him. and more often than not, that chance comes around. it's also very hard to understand how bisu keeps running into zergs. I think it's the coaching staff. SKT's coaching staff is probably why they don't get screwed over matchup-wise very often and why the resident PvZ anomaly Bisu keeps running into Zergs. KT on the other hand doesn't seem to be nearly as successful at that. Flash running into Best/JD, the two most qualified players on each team to take him out? Stats running into zergs and extending his loss streak? | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
On June 15 2011 18:23 Koka-kola wrote: fuckkk yeah!! This is where I regret that its not a WL, go get em JD! Hopefully he gives Bisu a much better game than their last one, it was too disappointing | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On June 15 2011 18:23 shadymmj wrote: something I don't understand is how flash keeps getting sniped in proleague. of course, jd deserved the win, and to tell the truth he needed it much more than flash did (he really should relax for now lol, screw the rest of KT). i swear there's some kind of conspiracy as to how flash keeps meeting best, jd, fantasy, etc...the only people who have a good chance against him if they prepare enough to snipe him. and more often than not, that chance comes around. it's also very hard to understand how bisu keeps running into zergs. The KT coach is really bad at making entries. Like, atrocious. When you compare KT's lineups to SKT and CJ's, it's like night and day. For example, take KT vs SKT. Action was sent out on Alternative, which Bisu plays on extremely frequently. Now, Action played a good game, but you have to be nuts to think an average Zerg is your best shot at beating Bisu right now. The right thing to do there was either to send Stats, who has been successful in PvP recently and is 2-0 against Bisu, or throw some sacrificial lamb into the game so that Action could play an opponent he'd be more likely to beat later on. Instead he just sent out Action and he died. Another bad decision in that match came later when Flash was sent on Circuit Breaker into the waiting arms of Best, a very easy snipe given that Flash hadn't played yet and it was unlikely he would come out on Bloody Ridge. In this match, we get the utterly bizarre decision to send Flash on Neo Aztec. Neo Aztec isn't an awful map for Terran, but it's not a good one either. Furthermore, at that point in the match, it seemed highly likely that Jaedong would be sent either on Neo Aztec or Circuit Breaker. Why would you ever risk matching Flash against Jaedong, given their head-to-head over their past two encounters and the overall strength of OZ's lineup? Flash versus any other player on OZ is almost certain victory, yet he is sent against the one player with a good shot of beating him. Why not send Roo or something and see if you can take advantage of Jaedong's ZvZ slump? I don't think I even need to go into why sending Stats on Beltway when the only Terran OZ had left was Hiya (you know, that other Terran with good TvP) was completely idiotic. I don't think C-H on La Mancha was a good idea either, but that ended up working out because OZ sent their bad Terran instead of their good one. It's absolutely true that KT's players are badly underperforming and losing to players they could be beating. But part of Proleague is making lineups that give you the best shot to get to 4 wins, even if it means dodging the opposing team's best player. KT doesn't do this. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Frankly, I highly doubt you have enough knowledge of this game to flat out claim there is no "break even" scenario in this particular situation. You aren't explaining "in detail" anything about this particular game, by the way. The two paragraphs in this gigantic response that actually analyze the game are so narrow-minded that it doesn't even begin to describe the range of possibilities that could've happened. You explain like 3 plausible situations whereas you leave out infinity more. Jaedong mismicros and loses his lurkers? Flash loses forces to stop lurkers that turns the game around and he loses the advantage he has after the "all-in" attack because of it. If Jaedong mismicros and loses all his lurkers then his all in didn't work and it was still all in. If Flash survived the all in, went to attack and lost all his forces to lurkers, he is still going to win because it's 3 hatch undersaturated zerg vs Terran, and he just plain cannot produce enough high tier units out of 3 hatches with so few drones to stop the terran from remassing when he can't take a third. Terran can afford to make enough forces and SCVs at the same time if he survives that attack to completely contain Jaedong, otherwise he ggs because if you can't have enough income to produce out of your raxes you've lost, if you can you've won. Also, I love the "Frankly, I highly doubt you have enough knowledge of this game," Right, so here's the problem: You do? You can, without a doubt, claim that there is no way this was an all in short of unrealistic extenuating circumstances? You do know that progamers themselves use the term all-in all the time, are you suddenly smarter than all of them? How many times has a progamer referred to something as an all or nothing attack and how many times have they said it wasn't actually all or nothing in their interivews(go read every kwanro and shine interview, or interview of someone who beat shine or kwanro)? The former is much more common than the latter. You're stating things based on basic logic, which is actually reasonable and applies to many kinds of cheeses and has happened, albeit rarely. But progamers refer to things as all in more often or not -- this is a failed line of reasoning from your standpoint. You are playing poker, you need a queen to win, so its either queen and win or something else and lose. Two choices, thats it. In Starcraft you can micro a Jack into a queen and still pull it off, or make someone else lose their straight. This is a very bad comparison. You can't plan on drawing a certain hand like you can in starcraft. Jaedong made a specific decision with his opening and follow up, you can't do this with cards (only with bets! I'm a long time poker follower :D). It's just stupid, because like you admitted, all-in HAS a negative connotation to it, it is also wrong in every regard, as you admit also. You know what pedantic means, right? You are agreeing that it is used incorrectly, but don't think its worth arguing. Where did I say it was wrong in every regard? I've been specifically arguing that in this case in this game it actually truly was an all in because of the amount of combat unit production capable by both players, though in other cases you're technically right, because we've seen cheeses that did not end up being in a completely all or nothing situation that progressed to a normal game, like the 5 pool situation I referenced earlier -- but you've got a stick up your ass if you harp on it in the slightest. If you don't want people to call it an all-in then they'll just call it a cheese, which has worse connoations. As for the reason you're arguing (this situation only had 2 outcomes thus qualifying it as an all-in) first of all, I strongly disagree, as would many more. Secondly, you don't have the game knowledge to make that call in the first place. Or maybe you are Jaedong or Flash or Bisu or a Professional Starcraft Coach on the TL forums arguing with some no-name. But probably not. More people have disagreed with you in this thread than agreed with you, and I'm sure most people who agree with you would say you're being overly prudish to get all huffy about people calling it an all-in. No one likes someone who takes every little thing literally. | ||
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Invictus
Singapore2697 Posts
oh well, as long as the other guys of Oz shape up i would be happy. hope kt also shapes up too, since kt is probably the only team that can take out skt atm. hoping for oz to win skt though ^^ | ||
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Karalius
Lithuania271 Posts
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WaterTower
France138 Posts
On June 15 2011 19:04 gngfn wrote: The KT coach is really bad at making entries. Like, atrocious. When you compare KT's lineups to SKT and CJ's, it's like night and day. For example, take KT vs SKT. Action was sent out on Alternative, which Bisu plays on extremely frequently. Now, Action played a good game, but you have to be nuts to think an average Zerg is your best shot at beating Bisu right now. The right thing to do there was either to send Stats, who has been successful in PvP recently and is 2-0 against Bisu, or throw some sacrificial lamb into the game so that Action could play an opponent he'd be more likely to beat later on. Instead he just sent out Action and he died. Another bad decision in that match came later when Flash was sent on Circuit Breaker into the waiting arms of Best, a very easy snipe given that Flash hadn't played yet and it was unlikely he would come out on Bloody Ridge. In this match, we get the utterly bizarre decision to send Flash on Neo Aztec. Neo Aztec isn't an awful map for Terran, but it's not a good one either. Furthermore, at that point in the match, it seemed highly likely that Jaedong would be sent either on Neo Aztec or Circuit Breaker. Why would you ever risk matching Flash against Jaedong, given their head-to-head over their past two encounters and the overall strength of OZ's lineup? Flash versus any other player on OZ is almost certain victory, yet he is sent against the one player with a good shot of beating him. Why not send Roo or something and see if you can take advantage of Jaedong's ZvZ slump? I don't think I even need to go into why sending Stats on Beltway when the only Terran OZ had left was Hiya (you know, that other Terran with good TvP) was completely idiotic. I don't think C-H on La Mancha was a good idea either, but that ended up working out because OZ sent their bad Terran instead of their good one. It's absolutely true that KT's players are badly underperforming and losing to players they could be beating. But part of Proleague is making lineups that give you the best shot to get to 4 wins, even if it means dodging the opposing team's best player. KT doesn't do this. I agree, although not even that would have saved this match. There are two good players in the KT lineup. CJ has been doing a good job, however. | ||
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tbrown47
United States1235 Posts
If Jaedong mismicros and loses all his lurkers then his all in didn't work and it was still all in. If Flash survived the all in, went to attack and lost all his forces to lurkers, he is still going to win because it's 3 hatch undersaturated zerg vs Terran, and he just plain cannot produce enough high tier units out of 3 hatches with so few drones to stop the terran from remassing when he can't take a third. Terran can afford to make enough forces and SCVs at the same time if he survives that attack to completely contain Jaedong, otherwise he ggs because if you can't have enough income to produce out of your raxes you've lost, if you can you've won. Yes you explained two of the situations with a whole bunch of personal opinions and theories thrown in. Him losing his lurkers that could win him the game doesn't make that attack 5 minutes ago still all-in. Because he could've won the game with those hypothetical lurkers. How does the terran remass with little to no SCVs? 6 Barracks and 2 Factories don't mean anything if you only have 4 SCVs mining minerals. Even still, saying that you've explained those 2 possible situations, you still have about a billion other possible outcomes to work through, which I doubt you have worked out. Also, I love the "Frankly, I highly doubt you have enough knowledge of this game," Right, so here's the problem: You do? You can, without a doubt, claim that there is no way this was an all in short of unrealistic extenuating circumstances? You do know that progamers themselves use the term all-in all the time, are you suddenly smarter than all of them? How many times has a progamer referred to something as an all or nothing attack and how many times have they said it wasn't actually all or nothing in their interivews(go read every kwanro and shine interview, or interview of someone who beat shine or kwanro)? The former is much more common than the latter. You're stating things based on basic logic, which is actually reasonable and applies to many kinds of cheeses and has happened, albeit rarely. But progamers refer to things as all in more often or not -- this is a failed line of reasoning from your standpoint. I agree, I don't have the knowledge either. However I am still unwilling to accept that you actually believe in a game as complex as Starcraft that the game had only 2 possible outcomes. It simply isn't true. There are just too many factors involved. About pro-gamers using it, yes they are human too. Professional athletes also use slang, and so does every other famous person in the world probably. My argument is that the slang term "all-in" is misused and its connotation means something that it really shouldn't in the world of competitive Starcraft. This is a very bad comparison. You can't plan on drawing a certain hand like you can in starcraft. Jaedong made a specific decision with his opening and follow up, you can't do this with cards (only with bets! I'm a long time poker follower :D). Well sure you can plan to draw a certain hand... that is what many build orders like cheese and "all-ins" are... Originally you were going for one hand, but then you see something on the table that benefits you in a way that you didn't originally expect, so you bet on that hand instead. Jaedong was gonna expand, saw Flash out of place and decided to attack instead. (simplified of course) Where did I say it was wrong in every regard? I've been specifically arguing that in this case in this game it actually truly was an all in because of the amount of combat unit production capable by both players, though in other cases you're technically right, because we've seen cheeses that did not end up being in a completely all or nothing situation that progressed to a normal game, like the 5 pool situation I referenced earlier -- but you've got a stick up your ass if you harp on it in the slightest. If you don't want people to call it an all-in then they'll just call it a cheese, which has worse connoations. I was wrong in saying you agree that "all-in" is misused ALWAYS, but you agree it is misused most of the time then? Even still, you claim this game to be a win or lose situation, when it simply wasn't. You keep saying "he has enough unit producing structures!" and stuff like that, well what if Jaedong nullified Flash's expansion before he lost his mutas, or if he killed some tech buildings or some production structures. You are still looking at it in such a narrow way. So many things could've been done differently in that single attack Jaedong did. Imo, there was a middle ground between winning and losing, and my point wasn't that I'm more qualified than you or a pro-gamer, its that I'm not making the assertion that there were only 2 possible outcomes of that attack: instant loss or instant death. You can't just claim that with the mask of "thats how TvZ works". So many things could've gone differently, certain tech structures dying, JD maybe backing off on some ling production to expand since he had already done considerable damage, production buildings dying, etc. More people have disagreed with you in this thread than agreed with you, and I'm sure most people who agree with you would say you're being overly prudish to get all huffy about people calling it an all-in. No one likes someone who takes every little thing literally. I'm not completely sure, but I believe the only person who directly quoted/referenced me was 1 person who said I was "100% correct" in my assertion(it was the post right after your first one), of course I won't take that at face value, however your claim is still incorrect. I think I'm done with this argument it isn't getting anywhere and I don't think either of us are gonna change our minds, plus we're just filling up this thread, lates | ||
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Reyis
Pitcairn287 Posts
must watch the vods! | ||
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Piste
6174 Posts
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_Quasar_
Russian Federation4405 Posts
 Flash was like "lalalala, iz pwnz ur 3rd, ezpz.... oh wait wat?!" | ||
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gimmeateeshitkent
Australia80 Posts
On June 15 2011 19:04 gngfn wrote: The KT coach is really bad at making entries. Like, atrocious. When you compare KT's lineups to SKT and CJ's, it's like night and day. For example, take KT vs SKT. Action was sent out on Alternative, which Bisu plays on extremely frequently. Now, Action played a good game, but you have to be nuts to think an average Zerg is your best shot at beating Bisu right now. The right thing to do there was either to send Stats, who has been successful in PvP recently and is 2-0 against Bisu, or throw some sacrificial lamb into the game so that Action could play an opponent he'd be more likely to beat later on. Instead he just sent out Action and he died. Another bad decision in that match came later when Flash was sent on Circuit Breaker into the waiting arms of Best, a very easy snipe given that Flash hadn't played yet and it was unlikely he would come out on Bloody Ridge. In this match, we get the utterly bizarre decision to send Flash on Neo Aztec. Neo Aztec isn't an awful map for Terran, but it's not a good one either. Furthermore, at that point in the match, it seemed highly likely that Jaedong would be sent either on Neo Aztec or Circuit Breaker. Why would you ever risk matching Flash against Jaedong, given their head-to-head over their past two encounters and the overall strength of OZ's lineup? Flash versus any other player on OZ is almost certain victory, yet he is sent against the one player with a good shot of beating him. Why not send Roo or something and see if you can take advantage of Jaedong's ZvZ slump? I don't think I even need to go into why sending Stats on Beltway when the only Terran OZ had left was Hiya (you know, that other Terran with good TvP) was completely idiotic. I don't think C-H on La Mancha was a good idea either, but that ended up working out because OZ sent their bad Terran instead of their good one. It's absolutely true that KT's players are badly underperforming and losing to players they could be beating. But part of Proleague is making lineups that give you the best shot to get to 4 wins, even if it means dodging the opposing team's best player. KT doesn't do this. thing is, soo has played just as many games on alternative as bisu. given that terrans dont really appear on this map much lately, its either stats to have a good chance vs bisu and a pretty shallow chance vs soo since hes been dropping pvzs all over the place, or action for a decent chance against soo and a semi/kinda/maybe chance against bisu jaedong hasnt played on aztec for awhile whereas killer has played his last 4 games on it, so i guess its reasonable to predict killer coming out again and thinking jaedong would come out on la mancha or circuit breakers again but i guess its all just prediction and getting lucky, sometimes you might think ahead and send a tvz killer on icarus to get rid of a zerg but the other dude might think even more ahead and send out a protoss to do away with your attempt. or you might think ahead twice and just send our a zerg lol | ||
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NicksonReyes
Philippines4431 Posts
 . I don't mind Flash losing to JD but this is like KT's 3rd/4th(?) loss in a row. They are just losing to the middle-ranked teams 1-4/2-4 too much unlike R5... | ||
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gimmeateeshitkent
Australia80 Posts
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butchji
Germany1531 Posts
j/k  | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
Poor Hyo | ||
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