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WWJDD
India342 Posts
On June 15 2011 14:50 Release wrote: effort game 5. We all know which game i'm talking about. No. Effort game 5 was blind 14cc. Flash adapted to that loss by devising the scouted 14cc, and Jaedong lost to it every single time. Nobody won against Flash when he did the 14cc after early scout. This is the first time he lost. | ||
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DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
On June 16 2011 00:26 WWJDD wrote: No. Effort game 5 was blind 14cc. Flash adapted to that loss by devising the scouted 14cc, and Jaedong lost to it every single time. Nobody won against Flash when he did the 14cc after early scout. This is the first time he lost. WCG Korea game 2 (on Polaris Rhapsody). Flash went 14CC and lost. Also, game 4 of Bigfile MSL on Triathlon. Jaedong went 9 pool but Flash's scouting SCV didn't first JD's base on its first try. And those are only games against Jaedong. There have been other players that have beaten him when he went 14cc (Flash vs. Zero on Benzene comes to mind). | ||
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WWJDD
India342 Posts
On June 15 2011 19:28 TwoToneTerran wrote: If Jaedong mismicros and loses all his lurkers then his all in didn't work and it was still all in. If Flash survived the all in, went to attack and lost all his forces to lurkers, he is still going to win because it's 3 hatch undersaturated zerg vs Terran, and he just plain cannot produce enough high tier units out of 3 hatches with so few drones to stop the terran from remassing when he can't take a third. Terran can afford to make enough forces and SCVs at the same time if he survives that attack to completely contain Jaedong, otherwise he ggs because if you can't have enough income to produce out of your raxes you've lost, if you can you've won. Also, I love the "Frankly, I highly doubt you have enough knowledge of this game," Right, so here's the problem: You do? You can, without a doubt, claim that there is no way this was an all in short of unrealistic extenuating circumstances? You do know that progamers themselves use the term all-in all the time, are you suddenly smarter than all of them? How many times has a progamer referred to something as an all or nothing attack and how many times have they said it wasn't actually all or nothing in their interivews(go read every kwanro and shine interview, or interview of someone who beat shine or kwanro)? The former is much more common than the latter. You're stating things based on basic logic, which is actually reasonable and applies to many kinds of cheeses and has happened, albeit rarely. But progamers refer to things as all in more often or not -- this is a failed line of reasoning from your standpoint. This is a very bad comparison. You can't plan on drawing a certain hand like you can in starcraft. Jaedong made a specific decision with his opening and follow up, you can't do this with cards (only with bets! I'm a long time poker follower :D). Where did I say it was wrong in every regard? I've been specifically arguing that in this case in this game it actually truly was an all in because of the amount of combat unit production capable by both players, though in other cases you're technically right, because we've seen cheeses that did not end up being in a completely all or nothing situation that progressed to a normal game, like the 5 pool situation I referenced earlier -- but you've got a stick up your ass if you harp on it in the slightest. If you don't want people to call it an all-in then they'll just call it a cheese, which has worse connoations. More people have disagreed with you in this thread than agreed with you, and I'm sure most people who agree with you would say you're being overly prudish to get all huffy about people calling it an all-in. No one likes someone who takes every little thing literally. Here's the problem with your logic. If JD focus fired the nat CC instead of going for an outright win, then JD has two secure bases fully saturated against. Flash's one base. This will give JD enough time to setup a contain while Flash's nat CC comes online. So, it will be 1 base T vs 2 base Z for a little while, which is even ground. This is why, this is not an all-in. | ||
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WWJDD
India342 Posts
On June 15 2011 23:34 J1.au wrote: It's pretty meaningless when you consider how he does against them in a series. I believe that's an even 3-3 in BO5s. | ||
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WWJDD
India342 Posts
On June 16 2011 00:28 DarkMatter_ wrote: WCG Korea game 2 (on Polaris Rhapsody). Flash went 14CC and lost. Also, game 4 of Bigfile MSL on Triathlon. Jaedong went 9 pool but Flash's scouting SCV didn't first JD's base on its first try. And those are only games against Jaedong. There have been other players that have beaten him when he went 14cc (Flash vs. Zero on Benzene comes to mind). The argument is not about 14cc at all. It's scouted 14cc vs unscouted 14cc. | ||
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e_i_pi_1_0
933 Posts
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kuroshiroi
3149 Posts
Still love you Moktira <3 I hope the source problem goes away soon  Also, can somebody explain to me the difference between a timing attack and an all-in when it comes to Zerg? Because I always thought the Zerg version of a timing attack was an all-in? As such, I don't think Zerg going all-in counts as a negative, it's just part of how the race works. | ||
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J1.au
Australia3596 Posts
On June 15 2011 23:47 ffreakk wrote: I understand ur unhappy that Flash lost. but cmon those players deserve credit.. They have matched up well against Flash in their life-time. Sure series are impt, thats why they are given many games. If Flash >>> Hydra, he rapes Hydra 3-0, chalking 3 points up in his/their personal record. Suggesting that losing many Bo1 is meaningless and looking only at BoX (where Flash's strength is at) is pretty selective vision, imo. Facts are Flash is having a losing head-to-head vs both Jaedong n BeSt. He might (likely) still be the better player, but he is behind, statistically. Pulling the "lol man this is not a series" everytime LYH lost gets old pretty fast (last game vs BeSt were the same, people keeps bringing back that 3-0 OSL) This discussion is silly. BeSt and Jaedong have a winning head-to-head versus Flash by only one game each, which isn't much at all. | ||
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ninini
Sweden1204 Posts
On June 15 2011 23:56 Holgerius wrote: Using words such as ''might be'' regarding Flash's superiority as a player over Best is an insult. Not really if you look at the PvT matchup only. Best have the hottest PvT right now. Bisu have a similar win-rate, but he have only shown weakness against Flash and haven't beaten him in a standard game lately. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On June 15 2011 12:55 Dakkas wrote: As unfortunate as it is for me to say but if Dong is sent against Flash then he's going to get rolled completely. Revenge for the group of death! aaaahAHAHAHA! JAEDONGGGGGGGGG!! | ||
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DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
On June 16 2011 00:51 WWJDD wrote: The argument is not about 14cc at all. It's scouted 14cc vs unscouted 14cc. Yeah, and you claimed he never lost when he did a scouted 14CC until yesterday's game, and I'm giving you examples where he did. o_O | ||
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kuroshiroi
3149 Posts
On June 16 2011 00:53 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote: Is anyone planning to translate the winner's interviews? They're already on Fomos, Jaedong and Hiya, Killer and Sky | ||
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shucklesors
Singapore1176 Posts
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
On June 15 2011 23:47 ffreakk wrote: I understand ur unhappy that Flash lost. but cmon those players deserve credit.. They have matched up well against Flash in their life-time. Sure series are impt, thats why they are given many games. If Flash >>> Hydra, he rapes Hydra 3-0, chalking 3 points up in his/their personal record. Suggesting that losing many Bo1 is meaningless and looking only at BoX (where Flash's strength is at) is pretty selective vision, imo. Facts are Flash is having a losing head-to-head vs both Jaedong n BeSt. He might (likely) still be the better player, but he is behind, statistically. Pulling the "lol man this is not a series" everytime LYH lost gets old pretty fast (last game vs BeSt were the same, people keeps bringing back that 3-0 OSL) Unhappy that Flash lost? I think JD deserves a break after his exit from MSL and then his mini loss streak. Flash on the other hand shouldn't be called upon to salvage his teams frankly hopeless proleague matches, it is good if he gets to celebrate after winning one of his most important titles instead of, shock, preparing to face off against his rival again. What you are suggesting is however ridiculous. Best would never stand a chance against a prepared Flash in a Bo5. Jaedong is arguably on par skillwise with Flash head-to-head in key matches but to suggest a degree of doubt that Flash is better than Best is just...absurd. Best only has a winning record because he is specifically sent out to snipe an overworked/unprepared LYH, that's all. We all know what happens if Best meets some other random dude instead. | ||
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DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
Why are people even bringing up Best? He's such a one-dimensional player. The one time where Flash actually came well prepared, Best got embarrassed. In fact, I think Bisu has a much better chance at beating Flash in a Bo5 compared to Best. | ||
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Dandy4
United States493 Posts
Wow fomos is really stepping up their game. Thanks | ||
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Deletrious
United States458 Posts
On June 16 2011 01:22 DarkMatter_ wrote: Yeah, and you claimed he never lost when he did a scouted 14CC until yesterday's game, and I'm giving you examples where he did. o_O Also you have to consider walled off versus unwalled 14cc. In this particular game, while Jaedong didn't 3 hatch because he didn't scout 14cc in time, he did at least 13 pool , another way zerg have adjusted to 14cc somewhat. That and and a timing push when Flash was trying to prevent a 3rd base was just a great head game on Jaedong's part. | ||
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Gescom
Canada3482 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On June 16 2011 00:47 WWJDD wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 15 2011 19:28 TwoToneTerran wrote: If Jaedong mismicros and loses all his lurkers then his all in didn't work and it was still all in. If Flash survived the all in, went to attack and lost all his forces to lurkers, he is still going to win because it's 3 hatch undersaturated zerg vs Terran, and he just plain cannot produce enough high tier units out of 3 hatches with so few drones to stop the terran from remassing when he can't take a third. Terran can afford to make enough forces and SCVs at the same time if he survives that attack to completely contain Jaedong, otherwise he ggs because if you can't have enough income to produce out of your raxes you've lost, if you can you've won. Also, I love the "Frankly, I highly doubt you have enough knowledge of this game," Right, so here's the problem: You do? You can, without a doubt, claim that there is no way this was an all in short of unrealistic extenuating circumstances? You do know that progamers themselves use the term all-in all the time, are you suddenly smarter than all of them? How many times has a progamer referred to something as an all or nothing attack and how many times have they said it wasn't actually all or nothing in their interivews(go read every kwanro and shine interview, or interview of someone who beat shine or kwanro)? The former is much more common than the latter. You're stating things based on basic logic, which is actually reasonable and applies to many kinds of cheeses and has happened, albeit rarely. But progamers refer to things as all in more often or not -- this is a failed line of reasoning from your standpoint. This is a very bad comparison. You can't plan on drawing a certain hand like you can in starcraft. Jaedong made a specific decision with his opening and follow up, you can't do this with cards (only with bets! I'm a long time poker follower :D). Where did I say it was wrong in every regard? I've been specifically arguing that in this case in this game it actually truly was an all in because of the amount of combat unit production capable by both players, though in other cases you're technically right, because we've seen cheeses that did not end up being in a completely all or nothing situation that progressed to a normal game, like the 5 pool situation I referenced earlier -- but you've got a stick up your ass if you harp on it in the slightest. If you don't want people to call it an all-in then they'll just call it a cheese, which has worse connoations. More people have disagreed with you in this thread than agreed with you, and I'm sure most people who agree with you would say you're being overly prudish to get all huffy about people calling it an all-in. No one likes someone who takes every little thing literally. Here's the problem with your logic. If JD focus fired the nat CC instead of going for an outright win, then JD has two secure bases fully saturated against. Flash's one base. This will give JD enough time to setup a contain while Flash's nat CC comes online. So, it will be 1 base T vs 2 base Z for a little while, which is even ground. This is why, this is not an all-in. If Jaedong does this he loses because terran can repair CCs. This was a simple, cut and dry situation of "If Flash can continue making units, he wins. If he can't, he dies to lurkers." Because the Mutas themselves can't really kill off buildings fast enough before getting target fired. Jaedong did the one thing he could, and that was harass Flash into ineffectiveness with mutas. I know SC seems so much more complicated than that but it's just how 20drone 3hatch zerg works against terran with a factory and 3 raxes. There's no situation where Jaedong just backs up and goes for a macro game that Flash isn't already crippled to the point of uselessness. | ||
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Zhul
Czech Republic430 Posts
On JuNe 16 2011 00:54 kuroshiroi wrote: Here are the games (with Chinese commentary) if anybody can't wait for Moktira/Nevake: http://sC.plu.CN/vod/spl08-09/2011-06-15/1038362.html Chinese? Sounds like Korean to me rofl. Edit: Ahhh that was just some intro xD. | ||
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