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Point is, their style is so incredibly different that you can hardly compare them. Fantasy's creativity and strategic build are the best around, but he doesn't have the incredible consistency Flash has developed.
Now in terms of result, Fantasy was never nearly as dominant as Flash is today, and Flash has never as inconsistant as Fantasy has been lately...
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On April 25 2010 03:59 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 03:24 Severedevil wrote:On April 25 2010 00:47 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 00:11 Housemd wrote:On April 24 2010 19:03 Holgerius wrote:
Fantasy was never better than Flash. I look at it this way. When Fantasy was winning games in the OSL and proleague a few months ago, he was really, really, really, good. People thought he was better than Flash at that point since Flash was failing bad. However, its the complete opposite now. Fantasy was never better than Flash. Just to reiterate. Flash was never failing bad, he was merely mortal. Flash came nowhere near winning a starleague, and got his ass kicked by every good player of PvT or ZvT, reliably, for six months... and he only became the clearly dominant TvT'er near the end of that period. His claim to fame was reliably defeating any mediocre player. (Backho not counting as mediocre.) Fantasy was somewhat unreliable in TvZ but was a serious threat to any player, had the best TvP and ~tied for best TvT, and made deep starleague runs in three consecutive seasons, coming very, very close to three consecutive OSL victories (but losing all of them, 2-3 to Stork, 2-3 to Jaedong, and then a 1-3 loss to Jaedong in the semis). Fantasy, not Flash, was the Terran of choice to study and mimic in TvZ, with his mech revolution. Yes, in 2009 before the summer break, Fantasy was better than Flash. Now Flash is demonstrably better than Fantasy in every possible regard. Fantasy's TvT was never as good as Flash's, and Flash certainly did not lose to "every good player". Everyone at the time still knew Flash was much more threatening than his individual league results indicated, his TvZ was very strong and while he struggled against top Protoss players in the limited encounters he had with them during that time period he still crushed almost every other one he faced. While Fantasy was off collecting silver medals, Flash was tying for most wins in Proleague and almost carrying his team which was completely god awful for most of the season to a playoff berth. Fantasy showed much weaker results in Proleague despite the fact that unlike Flash he didn't even have to consistently worry about serving as SKT's ace player. It's easy to look back and say "Hey, Fantasy did better in individual leagues, therefore he was the better player", but he was definitely never widely considered to be so at the time and I still don't think it to be the case.
I agree with most of your post. But not one part about the Proleague. Fantasy was too displaying some of the best Proleague results and even was able to beat and rank up to players like Jaedong and Stork (he even beat both of them, Jaedong twice in PL finals, and Stork in Ro16). Flash at that time might have been considered an underdog against Jaedong and Stork while Fantasy could par with them and sometimes even win.
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I guess this just goes to show how much Baby's TvZ is better than his TvT.
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Baa?21247 Posts
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I fucking love Midas so much!
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fantasy was never, ever great. he was good for awhile, he's not really anymore, but there was never a point at which reasonable people were comparing him to flash
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On April 25 2010 04:22 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 03:30 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 03:24 Severedevil wrote:On April 25 2010 00:47 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 00:11 Housemd wrote:On April 24 2010 19:03 Holgerius wrote:
Fantasy was never better than Flash. I look at it this way. When Fantasy was winning games in the OSL and proleague a few months ago, he was really, really, really, good. People thought he was better than Flash at that point since Flash was failing bad. However, its the complete opposite now. Fantasy was never better than Flash. Just to reiterate. Flash was never failing bad, he was merely mortal. Flash came nowhere near winning a starleague, and got his ass kicked by every good player of PvT or ZvT, reliably, for six months... and he only became the clearly dominant TvT'er near the end of that period. His claim to fame was reliably defeating any mediocre player. (Backho not counting as mediocre.) Fantasy was somewhat unreliable in TvZ but was a serious threat to any player, had the best TvP and ~tied for best TvT, and made deep starleague runs in three consecutive seasons, coming very, very close to three consecutive OSL victories (but losing all of them, 2-3 to Stork, 2-3 to Jaedong, and then a 1-3 loss to Jaedong in the semis). Fantasy, not Flash, was the Terran of choice to study and mimic in TvZ, with his mech revolution. Yes, in 2009 before the summer break, Fantasy was better than Flash. Now Flash is demonstrably better than Fantasy in every possible regard. Fantasy was a gimmick and will always be a gimmick. He was never a truly solid player. That was ALWAYS my gripe with him. His mech "revolution" had a giant gaping hole in it that Zergs ended up figuring out pretty quickly. Now you barely ever see it. Fantasy has never had even adequate M&M control. The only thing Fantasy ever did better than Flash at any point was TvP. "Fantasy was always a gimmick" What????? He came to fame rather quickly and almost won 2 straight OSL WHILE putting up some pretty good results in Proleague. Flash did not have the same reliability that Fantasy displayed (talking about 6 months ago around the time of Fantasy vs Jaedong semis). F antasy led his team to victory in the PL finals. The way Fantasy is playing NOW (not two months ago where Fantasy was losing to Killer an all) but now is the way Flash was playing 6 months ago. Fantasy is able to reach Ro16's but just can't get past them like Flash a few months ago.
yeah, with a proxy barracks cheese; the only thing fantasy had going for him is fancy builds created by boxer/oov and unconventional play which was why he was successful for a period; once he got figured out he dropped like a fly
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I never really liked Fantasy until he beat Bisu (back when Bisu was raping left and right). Then he lost to Jaedong in the Round of 4, I was like "FANTASY, TvZ is the EASY matchup!" Now losing to Calm isn't a big surprise for me.
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Russian Federation1208 Posts
I'm so glad that Midas has won.
I like Midas and I hate JangBi very much
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One of the sweetest moments of being Flash fan was round 4 last year game against SKT. It was a time when tons of people were claiming Fantasy being the T player around.
Even in the LR thread people were claiming that Fantasy will demolish Flash. And then Fantasy died in a 11 min game as if he was a random noob player.
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On April 25 2010 04:22 Housemd wrote:
"Fantasy was always a gimmick" What?????
He came to fame rather quickly and almost won 2 straight OSL WHILE putting up some pretty good results in Proleague. Flash did not have the same reliability that Fantasy displayed (talking about 6 months ago around the time of Fantasy vs Jaedong semis). Fantasy led his team to victory in the PL finals. The way Fantasy is playing NOW (not two months ago where Fantasy was losing to Killer an all) but now is the way Flash was playing 6 months ago. Fantasy is able to reach Ro16's but just can't get past them like Flash a few months ago.
Fantasy IS a gimmick.
His TvZ build (which was invented by oov and taught to him) allowed him to take other Zergs by surprise and consequently he enjoyed a relatively short period of prominence. Once Zergs figured out his strategy, he had nothing left to offer them. Today, he's still struggling to do these gimmicky TvZ builds that are out-dated and have been figured out. A guy like Hwasin, if in shape, will always perform well in TvZ because Hwasin is good with standard bio TvZ. Fantasy on the other hand is done in TvZ, unless he figures out some new gimmick.
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On April 25 2010 04:22 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 03:30 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 03:24 Severedevil wrote:On April 25 2010 00:47 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 00:11 Housemd wrote:On April 24 2010 19:03 Holgerius wrote:
Fantasy was never better than Flash. I look at it this way. When Fantasy was winning games in the OSL and proleague a few months ago, he was really, really, really, good. People thought he was better than Flash at that point since Flash was failing bad. However, its the complete opposite now. Fantasy was never better than Flash. Just to reiterate. Flash was never failing bad, he was merely mortal. Flash came nowhere near winning a starleague, and got his ass kicked by every good player of PvT or ZvT, reliably, for six months... and he only became the clearly dominant TvT'er near the end of that period. His claim to fame was reliably defeating any mediocre player. (Backho not counting as mediocre.) Fantasy was somewhat unreliable in TvZ but was a serious threat to any player, had the best TvP and ~tied for best TvT, and made deep starleague runs in three consecutive seasons, coming very, very close to three consecutive OSL victories (but losing all of them, 2-3 to Stork, 2-3 to Jaedong, and then a 1-3 loss to Jaedong in the semis). Fantasy, not Flash, was the Terran of choice to study and mimic in TvZ, with his mech revolution. Yes, in 2009 before the summer break, Fantasy was better than Flash. Now Flash is demonstrably better than Fantasy in every possible regard. Fantasy was a gimmick and will always be a gimmick. He was never a truly solid player. That was ALWAYS my gripe with him. His mech "revolution" had a giant gaping hole in it that Zergs ended up figuring out pretty quickly. Now you barely ever see it. Fantasy has never had even adequate M&M control. The only thing Fantasy ever did better than Flash at any point was TvP. "Fantasy was always a gimmick" What????? He came to fame rather quickly and almost won 2 straight OSL WHILE putting up some pretty good results in Proleague. Flash did not have the same reliability that Fantasy displayed (talking about 6 months ago around the time of Fantasy vs Jaedong semis). Fantasy led his team to victory in the PL finals. The way Fantasy is playing NOW (not two months ago where Fantasy was losing to Killer an all) but now is the way Flash was playing 6 months ago. Fantasy is able to reach Ro16's but just can't get past them like Flash a few months ago.
While Fantasy was the one who beat Jaedong twice in the finals, it was actually Bisu and Best lead SKT to the finals of the proleague since during that time. Whenever Bisu was sent out for the ace match, he did not lose. Fantasy wasn't that great in proleague overall.
Of course Bisu is pretty much dead so SKT is floundering.
Fantasy's TvT has always been the top, his TvP is very good, but his TvZ is completely held together by gimmicks. Except a few games (like his game against Jaedong on Outsider), he has always relied on unconventional play to beat good zergs.
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On April 25 2010 07:13 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 04:22 Housemd wrote:On April 25 2010 03:30 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 03:24 Severedevil wrote:On April 25 2010 00:47 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 00:11 Housemd wrote:On April 24 2010 19:03 Holgerius wrote:
Fantasy was never better than Flash. I look at it this way. When Fantasy was winning games in the OSL and proleague a few months ago, he was really, really, really, good. People thought he was better than Flash at that point since Flash was failing bad. However, its the complete opposite now. Fantasy was never better than Flash. Just to reiterate. Flash was never failing bad, he was merely mortal. Flash came nowhere near winning a starleague, and got his ass kicked by every good player of PvT or ZvT, reliably, for six months... and he only became the clearly dominant TvT'er near the end of that period. His claim to fame was reliably defeating any mediocre player. (Backho not counting as mediocre.) Fantasy was somewhat unreliable in TvZ but was a serious threat to any player, had the best TvP and ~tied for best TvT, and made deep starleague runs in three consecutive seasons, coming very, very close to three consecutive OSL victories (but losing all of them, 2-3 to Stork, 2-3 to Jaedong, and then a 1-3 loss to Jaedong in the semis). Fantasy, not Flash, was the Terran of choice to study and mimic in TvZ, with his mech revolution. Yes, in 2009 before the summer break, Fantasy was better than Flash. Now Flash is demonstrably better than Fantasy in every possible regard. Fantasy was a gimmick and will always be a gimmick. He was never a truly solid player. That was ALWAYS my gripe with him. His mech "revolution" had a giant gaping hole in it that Zergs ended up figuring out pretty quickly. Now you barely ever see it. Fantasy has never had even adequate M&M control. The only thing Fantasy ever did better than Flash at any point was TvP. "Fantasy was always a gimmick" What????? He came to fame rather quickly and almost won 2 straight OSL WHILE putting up some pretty good results in Proleague. Flash did not have the same reliability that Fantasy displayed (talking about 6 months ago around the time of Fantasy vs Jaedong semis). F antasy led his team to victory in the PL finals. The way Fantasy is playing NOW (not two months ago where Fantasy was losing to Killer an all) but now is the way Flash was playing 6 months ago. Fantasy is able to reach Ro16's but just can't get past them like Flash a few months ago. yeah, with a proxy barracks cheese; the only thing fantasy had going for him is fancy builds created by boxer/oov and unconventional play which was why he was successful for a period; once he got figured out he dropped like a fly
Fantasy beat Jaedong straight up on Outsider during the same event. He also rolled over Hiya.
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On April 25 2010 21:26 Kwanroller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 04:22 Housemd wrote:On April 25 2010 03:30 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 03:24 Severedevil wrote:On April 25 2010 00:47 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 00:11 Housemd wrote:On April 24 2010 19:03 Holgerius wrote:
Fantasy was never better than Flash. I look at it this way. When Fantasy was winning games in the OSL and proleague a few months ago, he was really, really, really, good. People thought he was better than Flash at that point since Flash was failing bad. However, its the complete opposite now. Fantasy was never better than Flash. Just to reiterate. Flash was never failing bad, he was merely mortal. Flash came nowhere near winning a starleague, and got his ass kicked by every good player of PvT or ZvT, reliably, for six months... and he only became the clearly dominant TvT'er near the end of that period. His claim to fame was reliably defeating any mediocre player. (Backho not counting as mediocre.) Fantasy was somewhat unreliable in TvZ but was a serious threat to any player, had the best TvP and ~tied for best TvT, and made deep starleague runs in three consecutive seasons, coming very, very close to three consecutive OSL victories (but losing all of them, 2-3 to Stork, 2-3 to Jaedong, and then a 1-3 loss to Jaedong in the semis). Fantasy, not Flash, was the Terran of choice to study and mimic in TvZ, with his mech revolution. Yes, in 2009 before the summer break, Fantasy was better than Flash. Now Flash is demonstrably better than Fantasy in every possible regard. Fantasy was a gimmick and will always be a gimmick. He was never a truly solid player. That was ALWAYS my gripe with him. His mech "revolution" had a giant gaping hole in it that Zergs ended up figuring out pretty quickly. Now you barely ever see it. Fantasy has never had even adequate M&M control. The only thing Fantasy ever did better than Flash at any point was TvP. "Fantasy was always a gimmick" What????? He came to fame rather quickly and almost won 2 straight OSL WHILE putting up some pretty good results in Proleague. Flash did not have the same reliability that Fantasy displayed (talking about 6 months ago around the time of Fantasy vs Jaedong semis). Fantasy led his team to victory in the PL finals. The way Fantasy is playing NOW (not two months ago where Fantasy was losing to Killer an all) but now is the way Flash was playing 6 months ago. Fantasy is able to reach Ro16's but just can't get past them like Flash a few months ago. While Fantasy was the one who beat Jaedong twice in the finals, it was actually Bisu and Best lead SKT to the finals of the proleague since during that time. Whenever Bisu was sent out for the ace match, he did not lose. Fantasy wasn't that great in proleague overall. Of course Bisu is pretty much dead so SKT is floundering. Fantasy's TvT has always been the top, his TvP is very good, but his TvZ is completely held together by gimmicks. Except a few games (like his game against Jaedong on Outsider), he has always relied on unconventional play to beat good zergs.
See, if Fantasy keeps on creating "new" builds in TvZ, even though unconventional can lead to some success. EVERY progamer has a weakest match up and Fantasy's is his TvZ. Fantasy can't control mnm correctly, so he needs to make new timings and all with mech to win. To him, he needs to create new builds since he knows that he can't control mnm. Every progamer can create new builds and they will look gimmicky once someone has found a way to counter them.
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On April 25 2010 23:34 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 21:26 Kwanroller wrote:On April 25 2010 04:22 Housemd wrote:On April 25 2010 03:30 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 03:24 Severedevil wrote:On April 25 2010 00:47 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 00:11 Housemd wrote:On April 24 2010 19:03 Holgerius wrote:
Fantasy was never better than Flash. I look at it this way. When Fantasy was winning games in the OSL and proleague a few months ago, he was really, really, really, good. People thought he was better than Flash at that point since Flash was failing bad. However, its the complete opposite now. Fantasy was never better than Flash. Just to reiterate. Flash was never failing bad, he was merely mortal. Flash came nowhere near winning a starleague, and got his ass kicked by every good player of PvT or ZvT, reliably, for six months... and he only became the clearly dominant TvT'er near the end of that period. His claim to fame was reliably defeating any mediocre player. (Backho not counting as mediocre.) Fantasy was somewhat unreliable in TvZ but was a serious threat to any player, had the best TvP and ~tied for best TvT, and made deep starleague runs in three consecutive seasons, coming very, very close to three consecutive OSL victories (but losing all of them, 2-3 to Stork, 2-3 to Jaedong, and then a 1-3 loss to Jaedong in the semis). Fantasy, not Flash, was the Terran of choice to study and mimic in TvZ, with his mech revolution. Yes, in 2009 before the summer break, Fantasy was better than Flash. Now Flash is demonstrably better than Fantasy in every possible regard. Fantasy was a gimmick and will always be a gimmick. He was never a truly solid player. That was ALWAYS my gripe with him. His mech "revolution" had a giant gaping hole in it that Zergs ended up figuring out pretty quickly. Now you barely ever see it. Fantasy has never had even adequate M&M control. The only thing Fantasy ever did better than Flash at any point was TvP. "Fantasy was always a gimmick" What????? He came to fame rather quickly and almost won 2 straight OSL WHILE putting up some pretty good results in Proleague. Flash did not have the same reliability that Fantasy displayed (talking about 6 months ago around the time of Fantasy vs Jaedong semis). Fantasy led his team to victory in the PL finals. The way Fantasy is playing NOW (not two months ago where Fantasy was losing to Killer an all) but now is the way Flash was playing 6 months ago. Fantasy is able to reach Ro16's but just can't get past them like Flash a few months ago. While Fantasy was the one who beat Jaedong twice in the finals, it was actually Bisu and Best lead SKT to the finals of the proleague since during that time. Whenever Bisu was sent out for the ace match, he did not lose. Fantasy wasn't that great in proleague overall. Of course Bisu is pretty much dead so SKT is floundering. Fantasy's TvT has always been the top, his TvP is very good, but his TvZ is completely held together by gimmicks. Except a few games (like his game against Jaedong on Outsider), he has always relied on unconventional play to beat good zergs. See, if Fantasy keeps on creating "new" builds in TvZ, even though unconventional can lead to some success. EVERY progamer has a weakest match up and Fantasy's is his TvZ. Fantasy can't control mnm correctly, so he needs to make new timings and all with mech to win. To him, he needs to create new builds since he knows that he can't control mnm. Every progamer can create new builds and they will look gimmicky once someone has found a way to counter them.
Yeah but you see that's difference between Flash and Fantasy, Flash can control MnMs just as good as Mech while Fantasy can't. So by that logic Flash > Fantasy.
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On April 25 2010 23:55 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 23:34 Housemd wrote:On April 25 2010 21:26 Kwanroller wrote:On April 25 2010 04:22 Housemd wrote:On April 25 2010 03:30 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 03:24 Severedevil wrote:On April 25 2010 00:47 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 00:11 Housemd wrote:On April 24 2010 19:03 Holgerius wrote:
Fantasy was never better than Flash. I look at it this way. When Fantasy was winning games in the OSL and proleague a few months ago, he was really, really, really, good. People thought he was better than Flash at that point since Flash was failing bad. However, its the complete opposite now. Fantasy was never better than Flash. Just to reiterate. Flash was never failing bad, he was merely mortal. Flash came nowhere near winning a starleague, and got his ass kicked by every good player of PvT or ZvT, reliably, for six months... and he only became the clearly dominant TvT'er near the end of that period. His claim to fame was reliably defeating any mediocre player. (Backho not counting as mediocre.) Fantasy was somewhat unreliable in TvZ but was a serious threat to any player, had the best TvP and ~tied for best TvT, and made deep starleague runs in three consecutive seasons, coming very, very close to three consecutive OSL victories (but losing all of them, 2-3 to Stork, 2-3 to Jaedong, and then a 1-3 loss to Jaedong in the semis). Fantasy, not Flash, was the Terran of choice to study and mimic in TvZ, with his mech revolution. Yes, in 2009 before the summer break, Fantasy was better than Flash. Now Flash is demonstrably better than Fantasy in every possible regard. Fantasy was a gimmick and will always be a gimmick. He was never a truly solid player. That was ALWAYS my gripe with him. His mech "revolution" had a giant gaping hole in it that Zergs ended up figuring out pretty quickly. Now you barely ever see it. Fantasy has never had even adequate M&M control. The only thing Fantasy ever did better than Flash at any point was TvP. "Fantasy was always a gimmick" What????? He came to fame rather quickly and almost won 2 straight OSL WHILE putting up some pretty good results in Proleague. Flash did not have the same reliability that Fantasy displayed (talking about 6 months ago around the time of Fantasy vs Jaedong semis). Fantasy led his team to victory in the PL finals. The way Fantasy is playing NOW (not two months ago where Fantasy was losing to Killer an all) but now is the way Flash was playing 6 months ago. Fantasy is able to reach Ro16's but just can't get past them like Flash a few months ago. While Fantasy was the one who beat Jaedong twice in the finals, it was actually Bisu and Best lead SKT to the finals of the proleague since during that time. Whenever Bisu was sent out for the ace match, he did not lose. Fantasy wasn't that great in proleague overall. Of course Bisu is pretty much dead so SKT is floundering. Fantasy's TvT has always been the top, his TvP is very good, but his TvZ is completely held together by gimmicks. Except a few games (like his game against Jaedong on Outsider), he has always relied on unconventional play to beat good zergs. See, if Fantasy keeps on creating "new" builds in TvZ, even though unconventional can lead to some success. EVERY progamer has a weakest match up and Fantasy's is his TvZ. Fantasy can't control mnm correctly, so he needs to make new timings and all with mech to win. To him, he needs to create new builds since he knows that he can't control mnm. Every progamer can create new builds and they will look gimmicky once someone has found a way to counter them. Yeah but you see that's difference between Flash and Fantasy, Flash can control MnMs just as good as Mech while Fantasy can't. So by that logic Flash > Fantasy.
I'm probably fighting a losing argument here (my being a fan of Fantasy got into my head) but what you said is not right. Just because you can control one thing better than another person does not make you better. I mean, if i could control vultures better than you, that does not mean im better than you. (even though i am  )
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On April 26 2010 00:02 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On April 25 2010 23:34 Housemd wrote:On April 25 2010 21:26 Kwanroller wrote:On April 25 2010 04:22 Housemd wrote:On April 25 2010 03:30 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 03:24 Severedevil wrote:On April 25 2010 00:47 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 00:11 Housemd wrote:On April 24 2010 19:03 Holgerius wrote:
Fantasy was never better than Flash. I look at it this way. When Fantasy was winning games in the OSL and proleague a few months ago, he was really, really, really, good. People thought he was better than Flash at that point since Flash was failing bad. However, its the complete opposite now. Fantasy was never better than Flash. Just to reiterate. Flash was never failing bad, he was merely mortal. Flash came nowhere near winning a starleague, and got his ass kicked by every good player of PvT or ZvT, reliably, for six months... and he only became the clearly dominant TvT'er near the end of that period. His claim to fame was reliably defeating any mediocre player. (Backho not counting as mediocre.) Fantasy was somewhat unreliable in TvZ but was a serious threat to any player, had the best TvP and ~tied for best TvT, and made deep starleague runs in three consecutive seasons, coming very, very close to three consecutive OSL victories (but losing all of them, 2-3 to Stork, 2-3 to Jaedong, and then a 1-3 loss to Jaedong in the semis). Fantasy, not Flash, was the Terran of choice to study and mimic in TvZ, with his mech revolution. Yes, in 2009 before the summer break, Fantasy was better than Flash. Now Flash is demonstrably better than Fantasy in every possible regard. Fantasy was a gimmick and will always be a gimmick. He was never a truly solid player. That was ALWAYS my gripe with him. His mech "revolution" had a giant gaping hole in it that Zergs ended up figuring out pretty quickly. Now you barely ever see it. Fantasy has never had even adequate M&M control. The only thing Fantasy ever did better than Flash at any point was TvP. "Fantasy was always a gimmick" What????? He came to fame rather quickly and almost won 2 straight OSL WHILE putting up some pretty good results in Proleague. Flash did not have the same reliability that Fantasy displayed (talking about 6 months ago around the time of Fantasy vs Jaedong semis). Fantasy led his team to victory in the PL finals. The way Fantasy is playing NOW (not two months ago where Fantasy was losing to Killer an all) but now is the way Flash was playing 6 months ago. Fantasy is able to reach Ro16's but just can't get past them like Flash a few months ago. While Fantasy was the one who beat Jaedong twice in the finals, it was actually Bisu and Best lead SKT to the finals of the proleague since during that time. Whenever Bisu was sent out for the ace match, he did not lose. Fantasy wasn't that great in proleague overall. Of course Bisu is pretty much dead so SKT is floundering. Fantasy's TvT has always been the top, his TvP is very good, but his TvZ is completely held together by gimmicks. Except a few games (like his game against Jaedong on Outsider), he has always relied on unconventional play to beat good zergs. See, if Fantasy keeps on creating "new" builds in TvZ, even though unconventional can lead to some success. EVERY progamer has a weakest match up and Fantasy's is his TvZ. Fantasy can't control mnm correctly, so he needs to make new timings and all with mech to win. To him, he needs to create new builds since he knows that he can't control mnm. Every progamer can create new builds and they will look gimmicky once someone has found a way to counter them. Yeah but you see that's difference between Flash and Fantasy, Flash can control MnMs just as good as Mech while Fantasy can't. So by that logic Flash > Fantasy. I'm probably fighting a losing argument here (my being a fan of Fantasy got into my head) but what you said is not right. Just because you can control one thing better than another person does not make you better. I mean, if i could control vultures better than you, that does not mean im better than you. (even though i am )
Yes it does means you are better. Lets look at it like this. Fantasy can control Mech at A level and Bionic at B level. Flash can control Mech at A level AND Bionic at A level. So Flash > Fantasy. If you don't want to look at who have the better control, lets look at the accomplishment, Flash with 2 StarLeague under his belt while Fantasy is off collecting Silvers. And lets look at stats now, Flash have over 70% in all matchups while Fantasy don't. And look at ELO, once again Flash > Fantasy. Not saying that I hate his creative build or anything (I actually look up to his TvP) but you just CAN'T say that Fantasy is better than Flash.
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On April 26 2010 00:13 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 00:02 Housemd wrote:On April 25 2010 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On April 25 2010 23:34 Housemd wrote:On April 25 2010 21:26 Kwanroller wrote:On April 25 2010 04:22 Housemd wrote:On April 25 2010 03:30 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 03:24 Severedevil wrote:On April 25 2010 00:47 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 00:11 Housemd wrote:
[quote]
I look at it this way. When Fantasy was winning games in the OSL and proleague a few months ago, he was really, really, really, good. People thought he was better than Flash at that point since Flash was failing bad. However, its the complete opposite now. Fantasy was never better than Flash. Just to reiterate. Flash was never failing bad, he was merely mortal. Flash came nowhere near winning a starleague, and got his ass kicked by every good player of PvT or ZvT, reliably, for six months... and he only became the clearly dominant TvT'er near the end of that period. His claim to fame was reliably defeating any mediocre player. (Backho not counting as mediocre.) Fantasy was somewhat unreliable in TvZ but was a serious threat to any player, had the best TvP and ~tied for best TvT, and made deep starleague runs in three consecutive seasons, coming very, very close to three consecutive OSL victories (but losing all of them, 2-3 to Stork, 2-3 to Jaedong, and then a 1-3 loss to Jaedong in the semis). Fantasy, not Flash, was the Terran of choice to study and mimic in TvZ, with his mech revolution. Yes, in 2009 before the summer break, Fantasy was better than Flash. Now Flash is demonstrably better than Fantasy in every possible regard. Fantasy was a gimmick and will always be a gimmick. He was never a truly solid player. That was ALWAYS my gripe with him. His mech "revolution" had a giant gaping hole in it that Zergs ended up figuring out pretty quickly. Now you barely ever see it. Fantasy has never had even adequate M&M control. The only thing Fantasy ever did better than Flash at any point was TvP. "Fantasy was always a gimmick" What????? He came to fame rather quickly and almost won 2 straight OSL WHILE putting up some pretty good results in Proleague. Flash did not have the same reliability that Fantasy displayed (talking about 6 months ago around the time of Fantasy vs Jaedong semis). Fantasy led his team to victory in the PL finals. The way Fantasy is playing NOW (not two months ago where Fantasy was losing to Killer an all) but now is the way Flash was playing 6 months ago. Fantasy is able to reach Ro16's but just can't get past them like Flash a few months ago. While Fantasy was the one who beat Jaedong twice in the finals, it was actually Bisu and Best lead SKT to the finals of the proleague since during that time. Whenever Bisu was sent out for the ace match, he did not lose. Fantasy wasn't that great in proleague overall. Of course Bisu is pretty much dead so SKT is floundering. Fantasy's TvT has always been the top, his TvP is very good, but his TvZ is completely held together by gimmicks. Except a few games (like his game against Jaedong on Outsider), he has always relied on unconventional play to beat good zergs. See, if Fantasy keeps on creating "new" builds in TvZ, even though unconventional can lead to some success. EVERY progamer has a weakest match up and Fantasy's is his TvZ. Fantasy can't control mnm correctly, so he needs to make new timings and all with mech to win. To him, he needs to create new builds since he knows that he can't control mnm. Every progamer can create new builds and they will look gimmicky once someone has found a way to counter them. Yeah but you see that's difference between Flash and Fantasy, Flash can control MnMs just as good as Mech while Fantasy can't. So by that logic Flash > Fantasy. I'm probably fighting a losing argument here (my being a fan of Fantasy got into my head) but what you said is not right. Just because you can control one thing better than another person does not make you better. I mean, if i could control vultures better than you, that does not mean im better than you. (even though i am ) Yes it does means you are better. Lets look at it like this. Fantasy can control Mech at A level and Bionic at B level. Flash can control Mech at A level AND Bionic at A level. So Flash > Fantasy. If you don't want to look at who have the better control, lets look at the accomplishment, Flash with 2 StarLeague under his belt while Fantasy is off collecting Silvers. And lets look at stats now, Flash have over 70% in all matchups while Fantasy don't. And look at ELO, once again Flash > Fantasy. Not saying that I hate his creative build or anything (I actually look up to his TvP) but you just CAN'T say that Fantasy is better than Flash.
You win...
EDIT: you should have mentioned the starleagues and ELO earlier (i never thought of them).
And yea...i knew that Flash was better than Fantasy (i'm a fan of Fantasy so it explains a lot) but i was really talking about whether Fantasy is "gimmicky or not"
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On April 25 2010 23:34 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 21:26 Kwanroller wrote:On April 25 2010 04:22 Housemd wrote:On April 25 2010 03:30 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 03:24 Severedevil wrote:On April 25 2010 00:47 Jayme wrote:On April 25 2010 00:11 Housemd wrote:On April 24 2010 19:03 Holgerius wrote:
Fantasy was never better than Flash. I look at it this way. When Fantasy was winning games in the OSL and proleague a few months ago, he was really, really, really, good. People thought he was better than Flash at that point since Flash was failing bad. However, its the complete opposite now. Fantasy was never better than Flash. Just to reiterate. Flash was never failing bad, he was merely mortal. Flash came nowhere near winning a starleague, and got his ass kicked by every good player of PvT or ZvT, reliably, for six months... and he only became the clearly dominant TvT'er near the end of that period. His claim to fame was reliably defeating any mediocre player. (Backho not counting as mediocre.) Fantasy was somewhat unreliable in TvZ but was a serious threat to any player, had the best TvP and ~tied for best TvT, and made deep starleague runs in three consecutive seasons, coming very, very close to three consecutive OSL victories (but losing all of them, 2-3 to Stork, 2-3 to Jaedong, and then a 1-3 loss to Jaedong in the semis). Fantasy, not Flash, was the Terran of choice to study and mimic in TvZ, with his mech revolution. Yes, in 2009 before the summer break, Fantasy was better than Flash. Now Flash is demonstrably better than Fantasy in every possible regard. Fantasy was a gimmick and will always be a gimmick. He was never a truly solid player. That was ALWAYS my gripe with him. His mech "revolution" had a giant gaping hole in it that Zergs ended up figuring out pretty quickly. Now you barely ever see it. Fantasy has never had even adequate M&M control. The only thing Fantasy ever did better than Flash at any point was TvP. "Fantasy was always a gimmick" What????? He came to fame rather quickly and almost won 2 straight OSL WHILE putting up some pretty good results in Proleague. Flash did not have the same reliability that Fantasy displayed (talking about 6 months ago around the time of Fantasy vs Jaedong semis). Fantasy led his team to victory in the PL finals. The way Fantasy is playing NOW (not two months ago where Fantasy was losing to Killer an all) but now is the way Flash was playing 6 months ago. Fantasy is able to reach Ro16's but just can't get past them like Flash a few months ago. While Fantasy was the one who beat Jaedong twice in the finals, it was actually Bisu and Best lead SKT to the finals of the proleague since during that time. Whenever Bisu was sent out for the ace match, he did not lose. Fantasy wasn't that great in proleague overall. Of course Bisu is pretty much dead so SKT is floundering. Fantasy's TvT has always been the top, his TvP is very good, but his TvZ is completely held together by gimmicks. Except a few games (like his game against Jaedong on Outsider), he has always relied on unconventional play to beat good zergs. See, if Fantasy keeps on creating "new" builds in TvZ, even though unconventional can lead to some success. EVERY progamer has a weakest match up and Fantasy's is his TvZ. Fantasy can't control mnm correctly, so he needs to make new timings and all with mech to win. To him, he needs to create new builds since he knows that he can't control mnm. Every progamer can create new builds and they will look gimmicky once someone has found a way to counter them.
That's why its gimmicky - its easily crushed, requires your opponent to do exactly what you want him to do, and thus its extremely fragile. Leta with his two port wraith was extremely gimmicky and guess what? The build was very quickly its buried into the ground because everyone and his dog found out how to embarrass you for choosing the build.
The problem is until Fantasy actually plays like the Crown Prince of SKT's terran line, he'll still be guy to embarrass himself against Clam. He's out of options: the valkyrie build barely works these days, every good zerg knows how to fight mech since it was being used so often, and his strange mech switch mid game timing has already been exposed to the public. He'll have trouble finding TvZ success until he actually learns how to consistently win with ever flexible SK terran since mech is one of those map dependent units much like carriers.
A real shame because his TvP and TvT are really amazing things to watch.
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EPT
