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On January 23 2010 21:23 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 21:21 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, IMO the real blame for screwing up Flash's mental state for game 4 falls on Flash's dad and his coaches. The power outage happened, yes. Kespa is fucked one way or another. But you know what? Flash can deal. Awarded wins have happened before, and Flash is capable of handling that. What destroyed him was his coaches' unprofessional response and his dad going downright apeshit. Yeah, his Dad probably should have kept his cool, but Flash is 17. He probably felt like his child was getting screwed over by adults. It isn't like Flash was going to object the decision. He's still a teenager; he wouldn't go up against people twice his age.
Totally agree. When you're 17 you have no hope of standing up to a bunch of adults. That's what parents are for. He didnt act like Dmir Dokic here, he objected strongly to the way Flash was being treated. And so did his coaches. And no, that wasn't what made Flash upset Yango. He was upset already. When they cut to his face after announcing the game for JD he looked stunned and like he was about to burst into tears. Totally reasonable for a 17yo whose as amazing at this game as he is. Take a loss before the game is over and then just shake it off? On national television in the biggest moment of his career? The comments saying he should just suck it up and play on are ridiculous and insulting.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
I don't want to discuss if JDs lead was big or not big, but it was CERTAINLY not big enough to not allow Flash a comeback, even if it might need JD to make a mistake (and not more than one, if he doesn't get the Swarm of the Expo goes down).
I say that you can't give one side a win when the other side is still fighting and the game cant be resumed because of outside circumstances. Imagine the NBA finals match 3 that is 95-90 with 7 minutes on the clock. Then the electricity goes off (like in the big New York blackout for example) and the game can't continue on that day. Imagine what would happen if the NBA would decide that the team which is leading would just get the win. Right, you don't have to imagine the riot because such a decision would not happen. It would be a re-match and no one would complain.
If Starcraft wants to be a real sport they have to have real judges and officials that follows strict rules and not a council that decides how the game would have ended.
What would happen if a player would accidently type something when he is 100% sure to win the game? He has to get the game loss and no council should be able to decide he wins. That is easy and no one would argue with it because in this case he made a mistake.
But it doesn't matter who makes the mistake, it is the same thing with outside events: If the game gets interrupted before a player types "gg" and can't be restored it gets replayed. No matter what, no discussion, that is the only possible solution.
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Canada5565 Posts
On January 24 2010 00:44 snapcrackle wrote:
watch again... he definitely had drones at 7. Also rewatch ESPECIALLY the last 5-10 seconds. It may not be TOO important but it did show how much in the lead JD was in that during those 5-10 seconds he JUST started to morph a hatch at 2 as pointed out by another TL member. I didn't spot it and it is hard to spot. Basically you will see that vision is increased... meaning that a drone started morphing into a hatchery. Now sure you may say "oh that doesn't say too anything" but what it tells me is that JD was even more in the lead than that i had previously thought.
Or maybe he was morphing that because he thought he was going to lose 7?
who knows...
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On January 24 2010 00:38 KristianJS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 00:28 silverleaftree wrote:
For those of you saying that game 3 broke Flash's "mindset":
It's part of the job of being a progamer. Life is tough, and mental strength is required to get through adversity like this. If you can't do that, then you simply lose, which was the case here.
Furthermore, there is also a lot of fault to lay on Flash's dad, who caused a scene and then got himself kicked out. He didn't have the foresight to see that getting angry wouldn't ultimately help Flash at all. So, I think that if Flash's people kept their cool and continued with POSITIVE support for Flash, he would have been in a better mental state for game 4.
Either way, managing your own mental state is part of the game, and Flash failed at it, so he lost. Managing your mental state if you're down 1-2 in a finals is part of the game. Managing your mental state if you get raped and BM'd in an important series is part of the game. Managing your mental state if the game crashes and you have to replay is part of the game. But if you have to sit through 1 hour of your dad and coaches flipping out, threatening to walk out etc. etc. while having just been awarded a loss due to power-failure which puts you down 1-2 in the grand finals....sorry, but that's not part of the game. It's like if some crazy fan ran onto court during the Wimbledon finals and attacked Federer, would you also say that dealing with that is "part of the game"? Of course not. The situation created after game 3 escalated beyond the point where you can really say that it's "part of the game".
My point was that the finals is not just Flash VS Jaedong, but Flash + His support (coaches, team, father, etc.) VS Jaedong + his support. The individual players depend on others to practice, for encouragement, etc. before and during the finals.
In this case, Flash's supporting cast failed miserably in supporting him, and then Flash can't handle playing without them. Seems like part of being a progamer to me. If certain players are allowed advantages by having better coaching and support, then it should also be fair that if their support FAILS that they would have to go on without it.
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On January 24 2010 00:50 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 00:44 snapcrackle wrote:
watch again... he definitely had drones at 7. Also rewatch ESPECIALLY the last 5-10 seconds. It may not be TOO important but it did show how much in the lead JD was in that during those 5-10 seconds he JUST started to morph a hatch at 2 as pointed out by another TL member. I didn't spot it and it is hard to spot. Basically you will see that vision is increased... meaning that a drone started morphing into a hatchery. Now sure you may say "oh that doesn't say too anything" but what it tells me is that JD was even more in the lead than that i had previously thought. Or maybe he was morphing that because he thought he was going to lose 7? who knows...
lets say this is true. that he thought he was going to lose 7. But as we know he was NOT losing 7. Not in the next 1-3 minutes at least.
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This should not turn into a Flash+ support Vs Jaedong+ support. What we need to find out here, is how things can be handled right next time, so unfortunate things like this never happen again. As has been stated, both sides have lost.
Oh yes, I have not said this yet. Congratulations to Jaedong for your victory, may you aspire higher. His humble reaction after the match has made me admire him more.
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I like how when Flash 8raxes or bunker rushes its "genius play", but when JD destroys him with pure muta micro or because he sees the 8rax coming its "nothing special"...
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
fuck man i feel so sad -. -
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On January 24 2010 00:46 InClass wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 21:23 Fionn wrote:On January 23 2010 21:21 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, IMO the real blame for screwing up Flash's mental state for game 4 falls on Flash's dad and his coaches. The power outage happened, yes. Kespa is fucked one way or another. But you know what? Flash can deal. Awarded wins have happened before, and Flash is capable of handling that. What destroyed him was his coaches' unprofessional response and his dad going downright apeshit. Yeah, his Dad probably should have kept his cool, but Flash is 17. He probably felt like his child was getting screwed over by adults. It isn't like Flash was going to object the decision. He's still a teenager; he wouldn't go up against people twice his age. Totally agree. When you're 17 you have no hope of standing up to a bunch of adults. That's what parents are for. He didnt act like Dmir Dokic here, he objected strongly to the way Flash was being treated. And so did his coaches. And no, that wasn't what made Flash upset Yango. He was upset already. When they cut to his face after announcing the game for JD he looked stunned and like he was about to burst into tears. Totally reasonable for a 17yo whose as amazing at this game as he is. Take a loss before the game is over and then just shake it off? On national television in the biggest moment of his career? The comments saying he should just suck it up and play on are ridiculous and insulting.
This is *not* a kiddie tournament, but it is a tournament on the biggest stage for starcraft and for real money. What is Kespa supposed to do, provide counseling for hurt feelings to *professional* gamers? Mental strength is a part of competition. If you can't win, then wait until you're older and gain more maturity and win afterwards. Or give it up to those that can keep their cool.
Sure, it's totally reasonable for a 17-year old to break out in tears in this situation. But the demands of being a progamer are exactly unreasonable, which is why it is so amazing in the first place to see Jaedong come back in BO5's historically.
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On January 24 2010 00:50 silverleaftree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 00:38 KristianJS wrote:On January 24 2010 00:28 silverleaftree wrote:
For those of you saying that game 3 broke Flash's "mindset":
It's part of the job of being a progamer. Life is tough, and mental strength is required to get through adversity like this. If you can't do that, then you simply lose, which was the case here.
Furthermore, there is also a lot of fault to lay on Flash's dad, who caused a scene and then got himself kicked out. He didn't have the foresight to see that getting angry wouldn't ultimately help Flash at all. So, I think that if Flash's people kept their cool and continued with POSITIVE support for Flash, he would have been in a better mental state for game 4.
Either way, managing your own mental state is part of the game, and Flash failed at it, so he lost. Managing your mental state if you're down 1-2 in a finals is part of the game. Managing your mental state if you get raped and BM'd in an important series is part of the game. Managing your mental state if the game crashes and you have to replay is part of the game. But if you have to sit through 1 hour of your dad and coaches flipping out, threatening to walk out etc. etc. while having just been awarded a loss due to power-failure which puts you down 1-2 in the grand finals....sorry, but that's not part of the game. It's like if some crazy fan ran onto court during the Wimbledon finals and attacked Federer, would you also say that dealing with that is "part of the game"? Of course not. The situation created after game 3 escalated beyond the point where you can really say that it's "part of the game". My point was that the finals is not just Flash VS Jaedong, but Flash + His support (coaches, team, father, etc.) VS Jaedong + his support. The individual players depend on others to practice, for encouragement, etc. before and during the finals. In this case, Flash's supporting cast failed miserably in supporting him, and then Flash can't handle playing without them. Seems like part of being a progamer to me. If certain players are allowed advantages by having better coaching and support, then it should also be fair that if their support FAILS that they would have to go on without it.
Maybe Flash's support failed here, but don't let that reflect poorly on Flash himself. My point is that this wasn't a finals where Flash simply failed to perform under pressure while Jaedong didn't, end of story. It was a lot more complex than that.
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On January 24 2010 00:57 Salteador Neo wrote:
I like how when Flash 8raxes or bunker rushes its "genius play", but when JD destroys him with pure muta micro or because he sees the 8rax coming its "nothing special"...
I think alot of people saw the 8rax comming after the long wait. The strain that was put on flash probably made him want to just end it fast, personally i don't think it was a part of his original gameplan - but i might be very wrong on that  .
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On January 24 2010 00:49 Fenrax wrote:
I don't want to discuss if JDs lead was big or not big, but it was CERTAINLY not big enough to not allow Flash a comeback, even if it might need JD to make a mistake (and not more than one, if he doesn't get the Swarm of the Expo goes down).
I say that you can't give one side a win when the other side is still fighting and the game cant be resumed because of outside circumstances. Imagine the NBA finals match 3 that is 95-90 with 7 minutes on the clock. Then the electricity goes off (like in the big New York blackout for example) and the game can't continue on that day. Imagine what would happen if the NBA would decide that the team which is leading would just get the win. Right, you don't have to imagine the riot because such a decision would not happen. It would be a re-match and no one would complain.
If Starcraft wants to be a real sport they have to have real judges and officials that follows strict rules and not a council that decides how the game would have ended.
What would happen if a player would accidently type something when he is 100% sure to win the game? He has to get the game loss and no council should be able to decide he wins. That is easy and no one would argue with it because in this case he made a mistake.
But it doesn't matter who makes the mistake, it is the same thing with outside events: If the game gets interrupted before a player types "gg" and can't be restored it gets replayed. No matter what, no discussion, that is the only possible solution.
sorry but u are ridiculous. wtf with the NBA thing?! it`s more like 95-60 with 7 minutes remaining.
People more experienced at starcraft than u stated the chances of a comeback.
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On January 24 2010 01:01 Ao_Jun wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 00:57 Salteador Neo wrote:
I like how when Flash 8raxes or bunker rushes its "genius play", but when JD destroys him with pure muta micro or because he sees the 8rax coming its "nothing special"... I think alot of people saw the 8rax comming after the long wait. The strain that was put on flash probably made him want to just end it fast, personally i don't think it was a part of his original gameplan - but i might be very wrong on that .
I think Jaedong saw that a mile away because Flash JUST did that against Calm on Fighting Spirit. I mean come on I'm pretty sure Jaedong was watching that Ace match =P
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On January 24 2010 00:59 silverleaftree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 00:46 InClass wrote:On January 23 2010 21:23 Fionn wrote:On January 23 2010 21:21 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, IMO the real blame for screwing up Flash's mental state for game 4 falls on Flash's dad and his coaches. The power outage happened, yes. Kespa is fucked one way or another. But you know what? Flash can deal. Awarded wins have happened before, and Flash is capable of handling that. What destroyed him was his coaches' unprofessional response and his dad going downright apeshit. Yeah, his Dad probably should have kept his cool, but Flash is 17. He probably felt like his child was getting screwed over by adults. It isn't like Flash was going to object the decision. He's still a teenager; he wouldn't go up against people twice his age. Totally agree. When you're 17 you have no hope of standing up to a bunch of adults. That's what parents are for. He didnt act like Dmir Dokic here, he objected strongly to the way Flash was being treated. And so did his coaches. And no, that wasn't what made Flash upset Yango. He was upset already. When they cut to his face after announcing the game for JD he looked stunned and like he was about to burst into tears. Totally reasonable for a 17yo whose as amazing at this game as he is. Take a loss before the game is over and then just shake it off? On national television in the biggest moment of his career? The comments saying he should just suck it up and play on are ridiculous and insulting. This is *not* a kiddie tournament, but it is a tournament on the biggest stage for starcraft and for real money. What is Kespa supposed to do, provide counseling for hurt feelings to *professional* gamers? Mental strength is a part of competition. If you can't win, then wait until you're older and gain more maturity and win afterwards. Or give it up to those that can keep their cool. Sure, it's totally reasonable for a 17-year old to break out in tears in this situation. But the demands of being a progamer are exactly unreasonable, which is why it is so amazing in the first place to see Jaedong come back in BO5's historically.
Then you've missed my point. I was defending the way his father acted. And btw, when half of your players in a game are under 18, then you can reasonably say it is a sport played by kids.
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On January 24 2010 00:59 silverleaftree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 00:46 InClass wrote:On January 23 2010 21:23 Fionn wrote:On January 23 2010 21:21 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, IMO the real blame for screwing up Flash's mental state for game 4 falls on Flash's dad and his coaches. The power outage happened, yes. Kespa is fucked one way or another. But you know what? Flash can deal. Awarded wins have happened before, and Flash is capable of handling that. What destroyed him was his coaches' unprofessional response and his dad going downright apeshit. Yeah, his Dad probably should have kept his cool, but Flash is 17. He probably felt like his child was getting screwed over by adults. It isn't like Flash was going to object the decision. He's still a teenager; he wouldn't go up against people twice his age. Totally agree. When you're 17 you have no hope of standing up to a bunch of adults. That's what parents are for. He didnt act like Dmir Dokic here, he objected strongly to the way Flash was being treated. And so did his coaches. And no, that wasn't what made Flash upset Yango. He was upset already. When they cut to his face after announcing the game for JD he looked stunned and like he was about to burst into tears. Totally reasonable for a 17yo whose as amazing at this game as he is. Take a loss before the game is over and then just shake it off? On national television in the biggest moment of his career? The comments saying he should just suck it up and play on are ridiculous and insulting. This is *not* a kiddie tournament, but it is a tournament on the biggest stage for starcraft and for real money. What is Kespa supposed to do, provide counseling for hurt feelings to *professional* gamers? Mental strength is a part of competition. If you can't win, then wait until you're older and gain more maturity and win afterwards. Or give it up to those that can keep their cool. Sure, it's totally reasonable for a 17-year old to break out in tears in this situation. But the demands of being a progamer are exactly unreasonable, which is why it is so amazing in the first place to see Jaedong come back in BO5's historically.
Mental strength is part of competition, but it's hard enough as it to deal with the normal mental strength demanded from the game, let alone added bullshit. You applaud someone who can shrug it off but to /expect/ someone to be able to come back and play normally from something like that is, in my opinion, unreasonable.
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On January 24 2010 01:01 KristianJS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 00:50 silverleaftree wrote:On January 24 2010 00:38 KristianJS wrote:On January 24 2010 00:28 silverleaftree wrote:
For those of you saying that game 3 broke Flash's "mindset":
It's part of the job of being a progamer. Life is tough, and mental strength is required to get through adversity like this. If you can't do that, then you simply lose, which was the case here.
Furthermore, there is also a lot of fault to lay on Flash's dad, who caused a scene and then got himself kicked out. He didn't have the foresight to see that getting angry wouldn't ultimately help Flash at all. So, I think that if Flash's people kept their cool and continued with POSITIVE support for Flash, he would have been in a better mental state for game 4.
Either way, managing your own mental state is part of the game, and Flash failed at it, so he lost. Managing your mental state if you're down 1-2 in a finals is part of the game. Managing your mental state if you get raped and BM'd in an important series is part of the game. Managing your mental state if the game crashes and you have to replay is part of the game. But if you have to sit through 1 hour of your dad and coaches flipping out, threatening to walk out etc. etc. while having just been awarded a loss due to power-failure which puts you down 1-2 in the grand finals....sorry, but that's not part of the game. It's like if some crazy fan ran onto court during the Wimbledon finals and attacked Federer, would you also say that dealing with that is "part of the game"? Of course not. The situation created after game 3 escalated beyond the point where you can really say that it's "part of the game". My point was that the finals is not just Flash VS Jaedong, but Flash + His support (coaches, team, father, etc.) VS Jaedong + his support. The individual players depend on others to practice, for encouragement, etc. before and during the finals. In this case, Flash's supporting cast failed miserably in supporting him, and then Flash can't handle playing without them. Seems like part of being a progamer to me. If certain players are allowed advantages by having better coaching and support, then it should also be fair that if their support FAILS that they would have to go on without it. Maybe Flash's support failed here, but don't let that reflect poorly on Flash himself. My point is that this wasn't a finals where Flash simply failed to perform under pressure while Jaedong didn't, end of story. It was a lot more complex than that.
Sure, there were events that were out of control. But shit happens. Who knows, if the tables were turned, maybe Jaedong might have broke under pressure as well. In this case, though, it was a combination of Flash, his team, and his father that acted unprofessionally and let their emotions take over, so they lost.
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As agreed upon recently, there is a middle ground now between Adolescent, and Adulthood. It is called Fledgling Adulthood. That means the child is technically an Adult, but still has the support and backing of their parents. That is true for (I do not remember the exact number but a guess at) 60-70% of all adolescent/adults in the United States. The number is also increasing in other countries rapidly as development accelerates.
This IS a sport mostly played by younger generations, because the older generation A. Is struggling with our **** economy, and B. To them, does not bring food onto the table, and C. Destroys the body sitting at the computer so long (They have aches and sores, we don't YET*)
Edit to silvertree*: we have all come to the agreement that Flash has lost. Thank you for your opinion.
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On January 24 2010 01:05 InClass wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 00:59 silverleaftree wrote:On January 24 2010 00:46 InClass wrote:On January 23 2010 21:23 Fionn wrote:On January 23 2010 21:21 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, IMO the real blame for screwing up Flash's mental state for game 4 falls on Flash's dad and his coaches. The power outage happened, yes. Kespa is fucked one way or another. But you know what? Flash can deal. Awarded wins have happened before, and Flash is capable of handling that. What destroyed him was his coaches' unprofessional response and his dad going downright apeshit. Yeah, his Dad probably should have kept his cool, but Flash is 17. He probably felt like his child was getting screwed over by adults. It isn't like Flash was going to object the decision. He's still a teenager; he wouldn't go up against people twice his age. Totally agree. When you're 17 you have no hope of standing up to a bunch of adults. That's what parents are for. He didnt act like Dmir Dokic here, he objected strongly to the way Flash was being treated. And so did his coaches. And no, that wasn't what made Flash upset Yango. He was upset already. When they cut to his face after announcing the game for JD he looked stunned and like he was about to burst into tears. Totally reasonable for a 17yo whose as amazing at this game as he is. Take a loss before the game is over and then just shake it off? On national television in the biggest moment of his career? The comments saying he should just suck it up and play on are ridiculous and insulting. This is *not* a kiddie tournament, but it is a tournament on the biggest stage for starcraft and for real money. What is Kespa supposed to do, provide counseling for hurt feelings to *professional* gamers? Mental strength is a part of competition. If you can't win, then wait until you're older and gain more maturity and win afterwards. Or give it up to those that can keep their cool. Sure, it's totally reasonable for a 17-year old to break out in tears in this situation. But the demands of being a progamer are exactly unreasonable, which is why it is so amazing in the first place to see Jaedong come back in BO5's historically. Then you've missed my point. I was defending the way his father acted. And btw, when half of your players in a game are under 18, then you can reasonably say it is a sport played by kids.
SO if half the players are under 18 does it mean that we should have apple juice breaks and naps in between sets? Perhaps if it is the junior division...
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On January 24 2010 01:06 goldrush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 00:59 silverleaftree wrote:On January 24 2010 00:46 InClass wrote:On January 23 2010 21:23 Fionn wrote:On January 23 2010 21:21 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, IMO the real blame for screwing up Flash's mental state for game 4 falls on Flash's dad and his coaches. The power outage happened, yes. Kespa is fucked one way or another. But you know what? Flash can deal. Awarded wins have happened before, and Flash is capable of handling that. What destroyed him was his coaches' unprofessional response and his dad going downright apeshit. Yeah, his Dad probably should have kept his cool, but Flash is 17. He probably felt like his child was getting screwed over by adults. It isn't like Flash was going to object the decision. He's still a teenager; he wouldn't go up against people twice his age. Totally agree. When you're 17 you have no hope of standing up to a bunch of adults. That's what parents are for. He didnt act like Dmir Dokic here, he objected strongly to the way Flash was being treated. And so did his coaches. And no, that wasn't what made Flash upset Yango. He was upset already. When they cut to his face after announcing the game for JD he looked stunned and like he was about to burst into tears. Totally reasonable for a 17yo whose as amazing at this game as he is. Take a loss before the game is over and then just shake it off? On national television in the biggest moment of his career? The comments saying he should just suck it up and play on are ridiculous and insulting. This is *not* a kiddie tournament, but it is a tournament on the biggest stage for starcraft and for real money. What is Kespa supposed to do, provide counseling for hurt feelings to *professional* gamers? Mental strength is a part of competition. If you can't win, then wait until you're older and gain more maturity and win afterwards. Or give it up to those that can keep their cool. Sure, it's totally reasonable for a 17-year old to break out in tears in this situation. But the demands of being a progamer are exactly unreasonable, which is why it is so amazing in the first place to see Jaedong come back in BO5's historically. Mental strength is part of competition, but it's hard enough as it to deal with the normal mental strength demanded from the game, let alone added bullshit. You applaud someone who can shrug it off but to /expect/ someone to be able to come back and play normally from something like that is, in my opinion, unreasonable.
Yes! It *is* unreasonable! It is also unreasonable to go on winning streaks against other progamers like Flash does! The thing is, you should expect the unreasonable, because that's what it takes to win at the highest level.
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Double post Silver. Yes it is unreasonable, but for entirely different reasons. This is how MSL handles a spectacular final. This is different then how people go on a winning streak.
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EPT
