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On January 24 2010 01:07 silverleaftree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 01:01 KristianJS wrote:On January 24 2010 00:50 silverleaftree wrote:On January 24 2010 00:38 KristianJS wrote:On January 24 2010 00:28 silverleaftree wrote:
For those of you saying that game 3 broke Flash's "mindset":
It's part of the job of being a progamer. Life is tough, and mental strength is required to get through adversity like this. If you can't do that, then you simply lose, which was the case here.
Furthermore, there is also a lot of fault to lay on Flash's dad, who caused a scene and then got himself kicked out. He didn't have the foresight to see that getting angry wouldn't ultimately help Flash at all. So, I think that if Flash's people kept their cool and continued with POSITIVE support for Flash, he would have been in a better mental state for game 4.
Either way, managing your own mental state is part of the game, and Flash failed at it, so he lost. Managing your mental state if you're down 1-2 in a finals is part of the game. Managing your mental state if you get raped and BM'd in an important series is part of the game. Managing your mental state if the game crashes and you have to replay is part of the game. But if you have to sit through 1 hour of your dad and coaches flipping out, threatening to walk out etc. etc. while having just been awarded a loss due to power-failure which puts you down 1-2 in the grand finals....sorry, but that's not part of the game. It's like if some crazy fan ran onto court during the Wimbledon finals and attacked Federer, would you also say that dealing with that is "part of the game"? Of course not. The situation created after game 3 escalated beyond the point where you can really say that it's "part of the game". My point was that the finals is not just Flash VS Jaedong, but Flash + His support (coaches, team, father, etc.) VS Jaedong + his support. The individual players depend on others to practice, for encouragement, etc. before and during the finals. In this case, Flash's supporting cast failed miserably in supporting him, and then Flash can't handle playing without them. Seems like part of being a progamer to me. If certain players are allowed advantages by having better coaching and support, then it should also be fair that if their support FAILS that they would have to go on without it. Maybe Flash's support failed here, but don't let that reflect poorly on Flash himself. My point is that this wasn't a finals where Flash simply failed to perform under pressure while Jaedong didn't, end of story. It was a lot more complex than that. Sure, there were events that were out of control. But shit happens. Who knows, if the tables were turned, maybe Jaedong might have broke under pressure as well. In this case, though, it was a combination of Flash, his team, and his father that acted unprofessionally and let their emotions take over, so they lost.
Actually I would place more blame with Kespa/MBC (whoever were in charge back there) for not controlling the situation better. If they're going to make a referee decision then at the very least they need to make sure there's no doubt whatsoever that nothing can change it.
Allowing Flash's dad and KT to argue over the decision for so long is completely absurd and shouldn't have been allowed to happen. The only thing worse than making a bad ref. call is allowing it to disrupt the entire game for like a full hour.
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On January 24 2010 00:49 Fenrax wrote:
I don't want to discuss if JDs lead was big or not big, but it was CERTAINLY not big enough to not allow Flash a comeback, even if it might need JD to make a mistake (and not more than one, if he doesn't get the Swarm of the Expo goes down).
I say that you can't give one side a win when the other side is still fighting and the game cant be resumed because of outside circumstances. Imagine the NBA finals match 3 that is 95-90 with 7 minutes on the clock. Then the electricity goes off (like in the big New York blackout for example) and the game can't continue on that day. Imagine what would happen if the NBA would decide that the team which is leading would just get the win. Right, you don't have to imagine the riot because such a decision would not happen. It would be a re-match and no one would complain.
This analogy doesn't apply. Starcraft is different from an NBA game because while an NBA game can be restarted at that 7 minute mark, Starcraft has to be totally replayed. Why would you totally ignore the fact that the NBA game can be easily restarted at the 7 minute mark and no one in the world would complain? In fact, it boggles the mind that this obvious and definite response to your own hypothetical situation is not even mentioned.
And as for the MSL game, making JD replay the game would have been unfair to JD, perhaps more unfair than it was to Flash to give the decision to JD, because JD was very much ahead in the game. What else could they do? It was the right decision for this particular situation.
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Yes, good point. The only problem is such a problem should have been handled after the games. Postponing a game for a hour to listen to both sides argue is not favorable in the audience's (aka* fan and supporters) eyes.
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On January 24 2010 01:12 silverleaftree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 01:06 goldrush wrote:On January 24 2010 00:59 silverleaftree wrote:On January 24 2010 00:46 InClass wrote:On January 23 2010 21:23 Fionn wrote:On January 23 2010 21:21 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, IMO the real blame for screwing up Flash's mental state for game 4 falls on Flash's dad and his coaches. The power outage happened, yes. Kespa is fucked one way or another. But you know what? Flash can deal. Awarded wins have happened before, and Flash is capable of handling that. What destroyed him was his coaches' unprofessional response and his dad going downright apeshit. Yeah, his Dad probably should have kept his cool, but Flash is 17. He probably felt like his child was getting screwed over by adults. It isn't like Flash was going to object the decision. He's still a teenager; he wouldn't go up against people twice his age. Totally agree. When you're 17 you have no hope of standing up to a bunch of adults. That's what parents are for. He didnt act like Dmir Dokic here, he objected strongly to the way Flash was being treated. And so did his coaches. And no, that wasn't what made Flash upset Yango. He was upset already. When they cut to his face after announcing the game for JD he looked stunned and like he was about to burst into tears. Totally reasonable for a 17yo whose as amazing at this game as he is. Take a loss before the game is over and then just shake it off? On national television in the biggest moment of his career? The comments saying he should just suck it up and play on are ridiculous and insulting. This is *not* a kiddie tournament, but it is a tournament on the biggest stage for starcraft and for real money. What is Kespa supposed to do, provide counseling for hurt feelings to *professional* gamers? Mental strength is a part of competition. If you can't win, then wait until you're older and gain more maturity and win afterwards. Or give it up to those that can keep their cool. Sure, it's totally reasonable for a 17-year old to break out in tears in this situation. But the demands of being a progamer are exactly unreasonable, which is why it is so amazing in the first place to see Jaedong come back in BO5's historically. Mental strength is part of competition, but it's hard enough as it to deal with the normal mental strength demanded from the game, let alone added bullshit. You applaud someone who can shrug it off but to /expect/ someone to be able to come back and play normally from something like that is, in my opinion, unreasonable. Yes! It *is* unreasonable! It is also unreasonable to go on winning streaks against other progamers like Flash does! The thing is, you should expect the unreasonable, because that's what it takes to win at the highest level.
Dude if your posts are just going to be bait-inducing attacks on what other people write, then you should just go troll somewhere else. Me and goldrush made sensible points and you're just attempting to derail endlessly. Leave it alone. We realise Flash lost. Yes maybe Jaedong would have handled it better. Who cares? It sucked for Flash and not just the loss, having to mentally deal with it was crappy.
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The most disappointing part of game 3 was how epic and back and forth i was on the edge of my seat when flash took jd's top right and it didnt look to well for him but a massive surround with ultra ling wiped it out that and the fight the bottom left at 7 was epic and really intense. A really entertaing game played a high level which delievered just delievered in everyway except with a definate result. It was but it was clear jd had an advantage and flash had little chance, its just sad and regretable that it didnt have the needed closure...
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On January 24 2010 01:14 Reaper9 wrote:
Double post Silver. Yes it is unreasonable, but for entirely different reasons. This is how MSL handles a spectacular final. This is different then how people go on a winning streak.
What does having a 'spectacular final' have to do with anything? It is MSL's problem to keep viewers tuned in watching with good games, but the players themselves shouldn't have to care about making things 'spectacular' for you, they are in it to win.
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why no recommended games? was this series just really bad or is op just pissed at results?
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On January 24 2010 01:19 iamho wrote:
why no recommended games? was this series just really bad or is op just pissed at results?
both
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OP is a Flash fanboy. I think it's pretty childish to destroy your own OP because your favorite player lost.
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This is such a bullshit it is hard to believe.
It ruined my day 
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Game 3 alone has soured everyone's mood. No one is really into posting. Silver, I was being sarcastic. Sorry if you did not get it.
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has kespa ever given someone a win in a game like this? Like when the hatchery bug used to happen and stuff? I dont remember there being a precedent for awarding victories.
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On January 24 2010 01:21 Sadist wrote:
has kespa ever given someone a win in a game like this? Like when the hatchery bug used to happen and stuff? I dont remember there being a precedent for awarding victories.
I remember in a July vs Bisu game, July was awarded the game when he did Hydra bust and destroyed Bisu's gateways before he could get a DT out. Some bug made the game crash.
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On January 24 2010 01:21 Sadist wrote:
has kespa ever given someone a win in a game like this? Like when the hatchery bug used to happen and stuff? I dont remember there being a precedent for awarding victories.
july vs bisu
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On January 24 2010 01:12 silverleaftree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 01:06 goldrush wrote:On January 24 2010 00:59 silverleaftree wrote:On January 24 2010 00:46 InClass wrote:On January 23 2010 21:23 Fionn wrote:On January 23 2010 21:21 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, IMO the real blame for screwing up Flash's mental state for game 4 falls on Flash's dad and his coaches. The power outage happened, yes. Kespa is fucked one way or another. But you know what? Flash can deal. Awarded wins have happened before, and Flash is capable of handling that. What destroyed him was his coaches' unprofessional response and his dad going downright apeshit. Yeah, his Dad probably should have kept his cool, but Flash is 17. He probably felt like his child was getting screwed over by adults. It isn't like Flash was going to object the decision. He's still a teenager; he wouldn't go up against people twice his age. Totally agree. When you're 17 you have no hope of standing up to a bunch of adults. That's what parents are for. He didnt act like Dmir Dokic here, he objected strongly to the way Flash was being treated. And so did his coaches. And no, that wasn't what made Flash upset Yango. He was upset already. When they cut to his face after announcing the game for JD he looked stunned and like he was about to burst into tears. Totally reasonable for a 17yo whose as amazing at this game as he is. Take a loss before the game is over and then just shake it off? On national television in the biggest moment of his career? The comments saying he should just suck it up and play on are ridiculous and insulting. This is *not* a kiddie tournament, but it is a tournament on the biggest stage for starcraft and for real money. What is Kespa supposed to do, provide counseling for hurt feelings to *professional* gamers? Mental strength is a part of competition. If you can't win, then wait until you're older and gain more maturity and win afterwards. Or give it up to those that can keep their cool. Sure, it's totally reasonable for a 17-year old to break out in tears in this situation. But the demands of being a progamer are exactly unreasonable, which is why it is so amazing in the first place to see Jaedong come back in BO5's historically. Mental strength is part of competition, but it's hard enough as it to deal with the normal mental strength demanded from the game, let alone added bullshit. You applaud someone who can shrug it off but to /expect/ someone to be able to come back and play normally from something like that is, in my opinion, unreasonable. Yes! It *is* unreasonable! It is also unreasonable to go on winning streaks against other progamers like Flash does! The thing is, you should expect the unreasonable, because that's what it takes to win at the highest level.
So to sum up:
1] It is unreasonable to expect A from anyone.
2] Because player X does really good things, then you should expect A from him as well if he wants to be a champion.
Does that about capture the essence of your argument?
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Goldrush, let's stop arguing with the tree, (usually only a natural disaster or humans can fell trees! Oh right, beavers too ;D) before it escalates. I am hoping for the interview from both Jaedong and Flash. Their opinion is the most important as of now.
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was the KT + Flash's dad incident recorded and shown live? wasnt on the vods from jon747.
so sad to see this MSL end like that
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On January 24 2010 01:24 goldrush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 01:12 silverleaftree wrote:On January 24 2010 01:06 goldrush wrote:On January 24 2010 00:59 silverleaftree wrote:On January 24 2010 00:46 InClass wrote:On January 23 2010 21:23 Fionn wrote:On January 23 2010 21:21 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, IMO the real blame for screwing up Flash's mental state for game 4 falls on Flash's dad and his coaches. The power outage happened, yes. Kespa is fucked one way or another. But you know what? Flash can deal. Awarded wins have happened before, and Flash is capable of handling that. What destroyed him was his coaches' unprofessional response and his dad going downright apeshit. Yeah, his Dad probably should have kept his cool, but Flash is 17. He probably felt like his child was getting screwed over by adults. It isn't like Flash was going to object the decision. He's still a teenager; he wouldn't go up against people twice his age. Totally agree. When you're 17 you have no hope of standing up to a bunch of adults. That's what parents are for. He didnt act like Dmir Dokic here, he objected strongly to the way Flash was being treated. And so did his coaches. And no, that wasn't what made Flash upset Yango. He was upset already. When they cut to his face after announcing the game for JD he looked stunned and like he was about to burst into tears. Totally reasonable for a 17yo whose as amazing at this game as he is. Take a loss before the game is over and then just shake it off? On national television in the biggest moment of his career? The comments saying he should just suck it up and play on are ridiculous and insulting. This is *not* a kiddie tournament, but it is a tournament on the biggest stage for starcraft and for real money. What is Kespa supposed to do, provide counseling for hurt feelings to *professional* gamers? Mental strength is a part of competition. If you can't win, then wait until you're older and gain more maturity and win afterwards. Or give it up to those that can keep their cool. Sure, it's totally reasonable for a 17-year old to break out in tears in this situation. But the demands of being a progamer are exactly unreasonable, which is why it is so amazing in the first place to see Jaedong come back in BO5's historically. Mental strength is part of competition, but it's hard enough as it to deal with the normal mental strength demanded from the game, let alone added bullshit. You applaud someone who can shrug it off but to /expect/ someone to be able to come back and play normally from something like that is, in my opinion, unreasonable. Yes! It *is* unreasonable! It is also unreasonable to go on winning streaks against other progamers like Flash does! The thing is, you should expect the unreasonable, because that's what it takes to win at the highest level. So to sum up: 1] It is unreasonable to expect A from anyone. 2] Because player X does really good things, then you should expect A from him as well if he wants to be a champion. Does that about capture the essence of your argument?
Yes, winning a championship is and should be hard. If Flash and his people cannot deal with that, then they shouldn't win.
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On January 24 2010 01:20 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 01:19 iamho wrote:
why no recommended games? was this series just really bad or is op just pissed at results? both
so none of the games are any good? thats too bad
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On January 24 2010 01:31 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 01:20 Jaeden wrote:On January 24 2010 01:19 iamho wrote:
why no recommended games? was this series just really bad or is op just pissed at results? both so none of the games are any good? thats too bad
definitely not up to the hype
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EPT
