Another thing you can do is start lair and let his probe see it but when it dies, cancel lair and start hydra den, but this is bad news for me since i´ve started to pvz and low level zergs are extremely cheesy probably 40% of the games

RaiZ

2813 Posts

August 07 2009 12:17 GMT

#82

P whinning about Z's cheeses ? Gimme a efing break ! As if we have a lot of them... Just play z yourself and see what T is doing... Or play T and guess P's opening... Seriously just stop complaining about everything because we already have a hard time to open cheeses with zerg. And even so it's really unlikely that it'll come out flawlessly...

Wotans_Fire

United Kingdom294 Posts

August 07 2009 12:24 GMT

#83

On August 07 2009 21:17 RaiZ wrote:
P whinning about Z's cheeses ? Gimme a efing break ! As if we have a lot of them... Just play z yourself and see what T is doing... Or play T and guess P's opening... Seriously just stop complaining about everything because we already have a hard time to open cheeses with zerg. And even so it's really unlikely that it'll come out flawlessly...

I don´t know if you´re adressing me but I play zerg and defending p cheese is easier in my opinion because its easy to scout, and zerg has a lot of options early game very hard to scout and make sense of for protoss, which is probably why I´ll start tvz :/

RaiZ

2813 Posts

August 07 2009 12:43 GMT

#84

No i wasn't pointing at you but talking in general. What i mean is that we don't have as many cheeses as PvT or TvZ. So it's pretty lame to see Protosses crying for almost nothing...

flag

United States228 Posts

August 07 2009 13:24 GMT

#85

Very nice explanation of the builds and ideas behind them.

I have some other potential all ins that could be added to the list. One is 1 hatch lurk ling (jaedong did this against some protoss on demon's forest). He lost but the toss seemed to have chosen a good counter to his build seemingly by luck. Obviously this build will only work on maps where you can hide the fact that you only have 1 hatch.

Another similar all in is lurker ling but from 2 hatch. This one done as an adaptation depending on their cannon placement at natural. The goal is to rush in and take out a cannon or 2 with lings so that lurkers can position themselves to hit the nexus while the toss has no detection in range. I saw mondragon do this a couple of times on ungoro crater and it always worked in the games I saw.

Shikyo

Finland33997 Posts

August 07 2009 13:52 GMT

#86

I disagree with something. Scout denying is in my opinion far better with overpool speed than with 9pool speed. It's fast enough to be able to deny any scouting 9pool speed could, and the economy is a lot better. Also, there are some allins that you didn't mention. For example, a 2hatch lurkerling frontdoor bust with about 3 lurkers and maybe 20 lings. This build works even if their building placement is pretty good, and if you manage to take every cannon out, their nat is gone. JulyZerg actually has done this build before.. it's most useful for Medusa. Oh, and some slow drop builds might be nice to include. Zerg basically can do so much stuff against a Protoss and deny the scouting with speedlings so well, it's almost not funny. Almost.

ccou

United States681 Posts

August 07 2009 14:04 GMT

#87

Where is this whining? The last couple pages have been a couple of P players saying it's legit to win with nonstandard Z builds while a couple of Z players saying it's better to play standard 5 hat macro. If anything, it's the protoss players defending zerg "cheese." And before that, it's been mostly praise for the OP from all races.

EDIT: To contribute, this guessing game is what makes PvZ a lot of fun for me. My two Z friends always keep me guessing and really make me work for intel. Neither of them go for hydra or ling all ins that much, but I get fast lurkers, slow drop lurkers, 3 base+hidden 4th for massive macro, 2 hat muta pretty often. I'm almost disappointed in how most pro games just end up so standard when both races have so many timing options.

Crunchums

United States11144 Posts

August 07 2009 14:34 GMT

#88

Rally your hatches to P's main, 6 mutas followed by 4 scourge, then 1 hatch muta, 1 hatch scourge non-stop to P's base. you should have excess money for a third hatch very soon due to heavy gas consumption.

Should this hatch be at an expo or should it be in base?

StarN

United States2587 Posts

August 07 2009 14:37 GMT

#89

This is a great guide. Think the number one thing though is that most D to C ranked zergs are so focused on macro that they don't realize that destroying any scouting attempts is the most important thing a zerg can do early game. Protoss has to work so much more to prevent certain all-ins, or they have to invest more in scouting, or they have to do something risky when playing against a zerg who has good zergling micro to deny scouting.

In fact, when I see a zerg get 9pool+gas, I ALWAYS hide a scouting probe before the zerg has an overlord at my choke which can spot any probe which comes out of my base. Since when zerg gets speed, your 1st scouting probe in his base will be a goner. :O

StorrZerg

United States13919 Posts

August 07 2009 14:51 GMT

#90

really loved this guide, i'll have to practice some of these cheese builds

ccou

United States681 Posts

August 07 2009 15:06 GMT

#91

O, even if your nonstandard build gets scouted in the beginning, you can continue your trickery as long as you prevent future scouts. In fact, it adds a lot to the mind games. See this hilarious game for details:

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11806_Kal_vs_Shine[kaL]/vod

Sixer

United States278 Posts

August 07 2009 15:12 GMT

#92

I love the Protoss players in here saying they hate you...it really brings a tear to me eye.

Railxp

Hong Kong1313 Posts

August 07 2009 15:31 GMT

#93

i jizzed. Will you be the daddy of my larvae?

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

August 07 2009 15:46 GMT

#94

On August 07 2009 23:34 Crunchums wrote:

Show nested quote +

Should this hatch be at an expo or should it be in base?

I always put it in base, because I won't have enough drones to mine from a third base anyway, might as well stay on two bases and make defense easier. Since this build is successful only if you destroy P's main, it should be 2 base vs 1 base in zerg's favor. If mutas fail to kill P's main, it's gg no matter where you put the new hatch.

On August 08 2009 00:31 Railxp wrote:
i jizzed. Will you be the daddy of my larvae?

Gold

Neivler

Norway911 Posts

August 07 2009 15:57 GMT

#95

U can add 1 hatch lurker. It works sometimes on medusa. Kill the temples and go behind the main

Shikyo

Finland33997 Posts

August 07 2009 16:19 GMT

#96

Umm... 1 hatch lurker isn't that good on anywhere else. But 2 hatch lurkerling frontbust allin is really good, it breaks 3 or 4 cannons really easily even if there are a couple of zealots there.