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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On August 07 2009 06:51 Ecael wrote: Doesn't that count as a followup to the 2hat lair mute build? no, its the same as 3 hatch lair into 5 hat hydra except its 2 hatch lair into 5 hatch hydra.. basically you should only use that build against paranoid protoss players.(ppp) | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
I love using this style of play in a series against the same player and cheesing evvery game except on the last game where i deny probe scout into-> macro, and they've made too many cannons. | ||
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mptj
United States458 Posts
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jonnyp
United States415 Posts
On August 07 2009 10:25 mptj wrote: i just have 1 question. What prevents a decent protoss from clearing out ur lings with a few zealots? the 12 speedlings, 12 speedlings vs 3 maybe 4 zealots is a close fight. plus the more minerals spent on zealots is less on cannons | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1965 Posts
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Aurious
Canada1772 Posts
On August 07 2009 09:29 inertinept wrote: im not forcing anyone to use it, to each their own  To each their own iccup level is more like it  | ||
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tossinYoSalad
United States215 Posts
but anyway, nice guide. | ||
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Raidy
Japan87 Posts
Honestly, I don't see a difference between this and the P going DT/Sair. The Protoss' ability to wipe out an entire expansion with a single DT drives me mad, but there's really no need to complain about something like that. Just because it's hard to beat doesn't mean it's cheese. Anyway, nice guide. It helped put a clearer picture on a few of the strategies I've been using for a while now. | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
I, personally, am under the impression that my mechanics (i.e., execution of micro, macro, scouting, multitasking) have best chance to improve in games where I have the initiative. (while on the other hand I learn best about tactical mistakes when watching replays of games I lost). I assume this is because, having the initiative, you can follow your plan in the head, and are thus able to execute faster, and more consistently, compared to having to react (see last APM thread). Being unpredictable, inlcuding cheesing, is a good way to gain and keep initiative. Especially on lower levels (i.e., me, C-), where the simple fact of you NOT going a standard 5 hatch hydra or 3 hatch muta (or whatever) is often enough the severely throw your opponent off balance. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9200 Posts
The entire point of these builds are mind games with your opponents. I would reserve them for BoX series, or tournament style settings where you know your opponent and you are trying to exploit a weakness in their playing style. When you're playing an absolutely random opponent you have no idea about, I don't understand (unless prompted for some reason because you see poor building placement, etc.) why you would even go 2hatch hydra bust (ofc unless you're ranking up quickly). | ||
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Probe.
United States877 Posts
Also On August 07 2009 17:37 FabledIntegral wrote: I disagree with recommending strategies such as all-in ling/2 hatch hydra (I know you didn't necessarily recommend the all-in ling but still), which only leaves your suggestions really with 2 hatch muta/5 hatch hydra. Although you never even mentioned 3 hatch muta... The entire point of these builds are mind games with your opponents. I would reserve them for BoX series, or tournament style settings where you know your opponent and you are trying to exploit a weakness in their playing style. When you're playing an absolutely random opponent you have no idea about, I don't understand (unless prompted for some reason because you see poor building placement, etc.) why you would even go 2hatch hydra bust (ofc unless you're ranking up quickly). People play to win. All builds are fair, and if you are a zerg player you should learn all the zerg builds / tricks. Why would it have to be in a BOX series. People should practice all kinds of builds all the time. Win by any means necessary in my opinion. Who cares if some random opponent on iccup doesn't have fun when they lose to you using a particular build. | ||
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APurpleCow
United States1181 Posts
On August 07 2009 17:37 FabledIntegral wrote: I disagree with recommending strategies such as all-in ling/2 hatch hydra (I know you didn't necessarily recommend the all-in ling but still), which only leaves your suggestions really with 2 hatch muta/5 hatch hydra. Although you never even mentioned 3 hatch muta... The entire point of these builds are mind games with your opponents. I would reserve them for BoX series, or tournament style settings where you know your opponent and you are trying to exploit a weakness in their playing style. When you're playing an absolutely random opponent you have no idea about, I don't understand (unless prompted for some reason because you see poor building placement, etc.) why you would even go 2hatch hydra bust (ofc unless you're ranking up quickly). Agreed 100%. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9200 Posts
On August 07 2009 17:44 Probe. wrote: This guide is very well written. You deserve a reward. I am protoss player but this guide is still helpful to me cuz i know what to watch for now. Also People play to win. All builds are fair, and if you are a zerg player you should learn all the zerg builds / tricks. Why would it have to be in a BOX series. People should practice all kinds of builds all the time. Win by any means necessary in my opinion. Who cares if some random opponent on iccup doesn't have fun when they lose to you using a particular build. I didn't say they weren't fair, I said there's no point in doing them. The entire "play to win" thing is absolute bullshit. "win by any means necessary" as in doing 2 hatch hydra breaks over and over vs random people? Once again, I call bullshit. | ||
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LuDwig-
Italy1139 Posts
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Aurious
Canada1772 Posts
On August 07 2009 18:06 FabledIntegral wrote: I didn't say they weren't fair, I said there's no point in doing them. The entire "play to win" thing is absolute bullshit. "win by any means necessary" as in doing 2 hatch hydra breaks over and over vs random people? Once again, I call bullshit. And i don't, doing it vs random people helps you learn the timings and perfect the build in itself. The hardest one to stop if you ask me is 2 hat hydra it's just super strong. I'd rather face mutas | ||
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Probe.
United States877 Posts
On August 07 2009 18:06 FabledIntegral wrote: I didn't say they weren't fair, I said there's no point in doing them. The entire "play to win" thing is absolute bullshit. "win by any means necessary" as in doing 2 hatch hydra breaks over and over vs random people? Once again, I call bullshit. How is playing to win buillshit? You play on iccup for some other reason than winning? All zerg players need to know how to execute all their builds perfectly. How else will they get the timings down for hydra break withouth doing it over and over and over again? | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2679 Posts
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Batibot
Philippines348 Posts
On August 07 2009 18:06 FabledIntegral wrote: I didn't say they weren't fair, I said there's no point in doing them. The entire "play to win" thing is absolute bullshit. "win by any means necessary" as in doing 2 hatch hydra breaks over and over vs random people? Once again, I call bullshit. If you have good mechanics because of practicing the "standard" macro 3 hatch spire~5hatch hydra build, you'd be able to master it. Yeah, you've got good mechanics and knows the ins and outs of this build but, even if you have high eapm, good mechanics, you still have to practice this all-in builds to be able to execute it flawlessly. | ||
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Piste
5903 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9200 Posts
On August 07 2009 18:28 Aurious wrote: And i don't, doing it vs random people helps you learn the timings and perfect the build in itself. The hardest one to stop if you ask me is 2 hat hydra it's just super strong. I'd rather face mutas Wow, way to completely fail at understanding what I said in my last few posts. Of course you could get your timings down if you want by practicing on the ladder and learning to execute them. I was merely saying that there's no reason to simply encourage using these builds as means to play regularly. You think I haven't used all-in lings? 2 hatch hydra. Of course I have. To get the timings down, and to punish players that have shitty ass building placement that I know I can benefit from. On August 07 2009 18:51 Navane wrote: How do you plan to pull cheese of in a BOX if you didnt practice it extensifly before on a ladder? It's not only play-to-win but also play-to-practice. Practice on the ladder, that's fine. Use them in a BoX to win, np. What I was saying was that it shouldn't be a basis, or core strategy you use on a ladder. For example, you shouldn't 2 hatch hydra as your standard build. I know the OP was just trying to say "use variety in your builds," but I see no reason for encouraging this variety. Why should I 2 hatch hydra? Besides "being bored and wanting to mix it up," there's no reason. My second post was obviously responding to Probe's "play to win" bullshit which essentially means "if you can get to a C with 2 hatch hydra breaks do it over standard play." Because that would be "playing to win." Progamers doing it would be the tournament aspect I mentioned, where the games aren't vs random people but specific players and there's rewards if you win. Then there's tons of incentive to do it. | ||
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