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On August 08 2009 15:58 tossinYoSalad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 05:56 Shikyo wrote:On August 08 2009 05:44 tossinYoSalad wrote:On August 08 2009 05:43 w3jjjj wrote:On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote:
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it? It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything. Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame. What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that. I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol.
hi SIR, long time no see! >_< ToSsaLaD?
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On August 08 2009 17:02 SiGurD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 15:58 tossinYoSalad wrote:On August 08 2009 05:56 Shikyo wrote:On August 08 2009 05:44 tossinYoSalad wrote:On August 08 2009 05:43 w3jjjj wrote:On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote:
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it? It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything. Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame. What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that. I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol. hi SIR, long time no see! >_< ToSsaLaD?
uh... do i know you?
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Every zerg players who reads will be harder to beat. =/
I play protoss xD
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On August 08 2009 15:58 tossinYoSalad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 05:56 Shikyo wrote:On August 08 2009 05:44 tossinYoSalad wrote:On August 08 2009 05:43 w3jjjj wrote:On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote:
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it? It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything. Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame. What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that. I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol.
Playing standard macro ZvP from D- to Lower C- is NOT FUN AT ALL. I'm not surprised zergs at D keep doing all ins.
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This is like every July ZvP game for the past year or two. Deny scout -> choose all in build -> top 3 ELO ZvP player.
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w3jjjj your a hero; every time you post I go up a point on iccup
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On August 09 2009 05:12 Camlito wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 15:58 tossinYoSalad wrote:On August 08 2009 05:56 Shikyo wrote:On August 08 2009 05:44 tossinYoSalad wrote:On August 08 2009 05:43 w3jjjj wrote:On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote:
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it? It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything. Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame. What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that. I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol. Playing standard macro ZvP from D- to Lower C- is NOT FUN AT ALL. I'm not surprised zergs at D keep doing all ins.
No kidding. You try to play a straight up macro game and every Protoss just decides to skip defence for a huge econ lead. Screw that. Protoss who complain about these builds are just the users who don't realise how greedy they're being when they don't get any defence.
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On August 09 2009 10:33 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2009 05:12 Camlito wrote:On August 08 2009 15:58 tossinYoSalad wrote:On August 08 2009 05:56 Shikyo wrote:On August 08 2009 05:44 tossinYoSalad wrote:On August 08 2009 05:43 w3jjjj wrote:On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote:
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it? It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything. Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame. What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that. I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol. Playing standard macro ZvP from D- to Lower C- is NOT FUN AT ALL. I'm not surprised zergs at D keep doing all ins. No kidding. You try to play a straight up macro game and every Protoss just decides to skip defence for a huge econ lead. Screw that. Protoss who complain about these builds are just the users who don't realise how greedy they're being when they don't get any defence.
That's usually reacting however when you notice greedy builds. A 2 hatch hydra is pretty much preplanned.
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On August 09 2009 13:34 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2009 10:33 Chef wrote:On August 09 2009 05:12 Camlito wrote:On August 08 2009 15:58 tossinYoSalad wrote:On August 08 2009 05:56 Shikyo wrote:On August 08 2009 05:44 tossinYoSalad wrote:On August 08 2009 05:43 w3jjjj wrote:On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote:
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it? It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything. Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame. What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that. I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol. Playing standard macro ZvP from D- to Lower C- is NOT FUN AT ALL. I'm not surprised zergs at D keep doing all ins. No kidding. You try to play a straight up macro game and every Protoss just decides to skip defence for a huge econ lead. Screw that. Protoss who complain about these builds are just the users who don't realise how greedy they're being when they don't get any defence. That's usually reacting however when you notice greedy builds. A 2 hatch hydra is pretty much preplanned.
any protoss that skips defense for a huge econ lead is usually responding to zergs being greedy and skipping lings. any protoss player that does skip defense in spite of seeing lings is a retard and deserves to die to all-in.
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I actually read all of that and lemme say this.
If I get on ICCUP tomorrow and play against of 9-pool speeders I will personally hunt you down for ruining my C-level toss account 
On topic: Ummmm yeah.... the thing with 9-pool speed is that it ALWAYS leads 2 hatch which really is  for the protoss if he scouts you out. Just put up 2 more cannons and watch the hydras melt lol
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Really nice write up!
I can vouch for that this is the hardest type of Zerg play to play vs. I hate nothing more than to play vs speedling openings, not because I necessarily got a worse win% vs it compared to standard play, but simply by the fact that I feel the outcome of the game is usually out of my hands and its turned into a numbers game or a rock-paper-scissor if you want. With 2hatch hydra pretty much every time the P plays it safe the Z lose, and pretty much every time the P don`t the Zerg wins and the same goes for the 2hatch muta. While the advantage of following up with standard play is also decided by how safe the P plays, if he plays it risky and makes few cannons its hard to win vs an similar skilled opponent, and if you make to many cannons (and the Z will see this due to overlords) the Zerg will usually get a very good advantage that he can most likely ride to a victory, but unlike the other options this can still be turned into very even games where skill still decides the outcome.
To sum up my thoughts I think its really good for series play and a great way to getting into the P players head since it turns it into a guessing game and that sort of turns the game into a rock-paper-scissors and that makes it a great way to beat better players. Simply a great weapon to have in your arsenal, but not something I would advice basing your entire game around if you want to get better.
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Great guide! I didn't see it in the recommended threads though, which it should be. ZvP is probably my worst matchup. I just couldn't seem to out-macro protoss with their storms unless they are dumb and macroing out of 2 gateways while having 4 up. Looking at my plight, I started tinkering around with sneaky builds and "all-in" builds like 2hatch hydra. This guide has helped my progress tenfold! I find the low econ/headgame builds a lot more fun to play.
One theorycrafting question: Lets say that your 2hatch hydra gets spotted and protoss manages to get cannons up before your hydras can do anything. Could you get a lair and do a slow overlord drop with hydras onto his main cliff, bypassing all the cannons at his nat? I plan on trying this but my 2hatch hydra never gets scouted, atleast in lower ranks.
Thanks for the writeup!
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On August 13 2009 23:27 Kletus wrote:
One theorycrafting question: Lets say that your 2hatch hydra gets spotted and protoss manages to get cannons up before your hydras can do anything. Could you get a lair and do a slow overlord drop with hydras onto his main cliff, bypassing all the cannons at his nat? I plan on trying this but my 2hatch hydra never gets scouted, atleast in lower ranks.
That won't be fast enough. If you get scouted after you have made many hydras, your only chance is to go for an all in attack and hope that it works. If you get spotted very early in the game, you can just cancel hydra speed, go lair and expand, make drones and pressure with 3 hydras to force some cannons. Pray that your lurker comes out before you get killed. Really, you just don't want to be scouted on an all-in build.
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On August 14 2009 01:22 w3jjjj wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 13 2009 23:27 Kletus wrote:
One theorycrafting question: Lets say that your 2hatch hydra gets spotted and protoss manages to get cannons up before your hydras can do anything. Could you get a lair and do a slow overlord drop with hydras onto his main cliff, bypassing all the cannons at his nat? I plan on trying this but my 2hatch hydra never gets scouted, atleast in lower ranks.
That won't be fast enough. If you get scouted after you have made many hydras, your only chance is to go for an all in attack and hope that it works. If you get spotted very early in the game, you can just cancel hydra speed, go lair and expand, make drones and pressure with 3 hydras to force some cannons. Pray that your lurker comes out before you get killed. Really, you just don't want to be scouted on an all-in build.
Ahh, yeah I thought so. That's what I like about all-in builds, gotta be sneaky and pay attention to fine details. Way more fun than macroing like a bot =p.
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On August 09 2009 13:34 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2009 10:33 Chef wrote:On August 09 2009 05:12 Camlito wrote:On August 08 2009 15:58 tossinYoSalad wrote:On August 08 2009 05:56 Shikyo wrote:On August 08 2009 05:44 tossinYoSalad wrote:On August 08 2009 05:43 w3jjjj wrote:On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote:
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it? It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything. Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame. What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that. I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol. Playing standard macro ZvP from D- to Lower C- is NOT FUN AT ALL. I'm not surprised zergs at D keep doing all ins. No kidding. You try to play a straight up macro game and every Protoss just decides to skip defence for a huge econ lead. Screw that. Protoss who complain about these builds are just the users who don't realise how greedy they're being when they don't get any defence. That's usually reacting however when you notice greedy builds. A 2 hatch hydra is pretty much preplanned.
Absolutely. But when almost all your Protoss opponents are playing greedy (at the lower levels on iCCup), you're still playing a smart meta-game. When you get to higher levels where Protoss players don't need to play greedy to win, then you can play standard and have some ggs.
The idea is that all-in builds react to a trend. I also think that the muta all-in provides adequate options not to be totally cheesy.
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WCS
