Many players, myself once included, are trapped in the myth that ZvP has been standardized, that the "best" opening is always 5 hatch macro, and that all-in builds are noobish play that do not work at higher level... NOT true.
What many zerg players today lack in their game play is Variety. All-in builds have become somewhat of a taboo in the strategy forums. You always get a billion advices telling you that "if you want to improve, you can't cheese". That is a correct but incomplete statement. What it should say is that "if you want to improve, you can't rely entirely on cheese".
The difference is easy to understand. All-in builds are basically timing attacks that are designed to strike and end the game with a single blow, or at least do enough damage to take a lead. The key word here is Strategy, not mechanics, but strategy. If you focus entirely on strategy, but fail to develop your mechanics, your execution of the strategies will be poor and it will fail you in the long run. However, does that mean one should go the other way and focus entirely on mechanics while ingoring strategy? Hardly.
Believe it or not, the power of unpredictable ZvP strategies are better understood by the protoss players, because they are ones who experience first hand the difficulty of playing "blind". Many macro-only zergs have no idea how insanely powerful the concept of variety really is.
That said, let's look at some examples of unpredictable play.
The 9 Pool Speed Opening, Guess What is Coming to Kill You
Cheese or not?
There is a long standing debate of whether 9 pool speed counts as cheese, and usually you get a whole bunch of name calling back and forth arguing whether it is or not. The answer is actually a clear no.
By definition, an all-in build is a timing attack that has to work or you fall behind trememdously. Now, what is the attack timing of 9 pool speed...? If you say "well, it depends on what you do with it", then you have just answered this long standing debate: The 9 pool speed opening, by itself, is not cheese, as it does not depend on a timing attack
A simple comparison can be drawn with the 5 pool, which is 100% cheese, because the build focuses entirely on the timing attack of your first 6 zerglings, the outcome of the game depends on how much damage this timing attack does. In comparison, the success of 9 pool speed does not depend on the damage output of your initial 6 zerglings, but rather, on your ability to keep your opponent in the dark.
That said, the 9 pool speed is the perfect opening to transition into all-in builds, because if you can deny scouting, P won't know what's coming and it makes it hard for him to defend vs. everything.
How to Make the Best Use of the Speed Upgrade?
Two words: Deny Scout
While it is true that in every game you should try to deny scout, it is particularly crucial to do so when the success of your opening depends on it. The simple truth is: if you allow your opponent to scout you after opening 9 pool speed, you will fall tremedously behind and likely lose the game.
Here is how to deny probe scouts:
1. When your 6 lings come out, put 1 on the probe, and send 5 to the P base, this will ensure that P makes at least two cannons before nexus. However, don't actually go all the way, as soon as your 5 lings leave the scouting probe's vision, P will add cannons, then you just bring the lings back to kill the probe.
2. Killing the probe may not be easy if your opponent is good at microing it, but it won't matter for long, once your speed finishes, you'll kill it easy. The rule is: if you kill th probe with your first 6 lings before the next two come out, you may stay on 8 lings or go up to 12; if you fail to kill the probe with your first 6 lings before the next two come out, make 12 lings in total, run with the probe, but don't kill it until after it sees your additional zerglings. This will scare P to make 3 cannons, and if not, it allows you to punish him for it.
3.Hunt down the hidden probe. This is very important. Every decent P knows to send out a second probe to hide somewhere as soon as he confirms the 9 pool speed build. Even on two player maps, this will happen before your overlord can moniter his choke. Play it safe, after killing the first probe, ALWAYS assume that there is a hidden probe somewhere on the map. Leave two lings to block your ramp, and send the rest to hunt down the hidden probe.
On small, two player maps, this probe hunt shouldn't be too hard with the speed upgrade, but on larger, 3-4 player maps, probe hunt will not be easy. ALWAYS leave two lings to block your ramp just in case you fail to find it.
4. If it's a two player map and your overlord arrives at P's natural, you can keep an eye on the choke to see if additional probes come out, if your lings are busy searching for the hidden probe, just select one zergling to lock on the new probe while it is still in your overlord's vision, the zergling will chase it down. If on larger maps and your overlord went the wrong direction, always send 1 ling to monitor P's choke while having 2 lings to block your ramp and the rest go hunt for the hidden probe.
5. Once the hidden probe is taken care of, you can position your lings at P's choke, after that, denying probe scout is very easy.
Now, Shuffle the Strategies!
The 9 pool speed has 4 main continuations, 3 all-ins and 1 macro play. For each of the all-ins, the most important part is the preciseness of your drone count. The very nature of all-in is do or die, do NOT make a single extra drone than it is necessary, maximize your attack force will give you better chances.
1. Speedling all-in (not recommended)
Certainly this can work, but only works if P has poor building placement. It is a very powerful game finisher if P fails to put his buildings correctly.
2. Two hatch hydra all-in
As soon as you finish off the first probe, put 2 drones on gas while you make more drones, make a den with the first 50 gas, then put a 3rd drones on gas. Make a total of 12 drones, but NO MORE. The perfect economy you need for two hatch hydra production is 10 drones on minerals and 2 on gas. In the beginning you leave 3 drones on gas for the upgrades, as soon as you start your second hydra upgrade, remove 1 drone from gas to reach the perfect econ set up.
At first you will not have money for hydras, that's fine, prioritize upgrades, they MUST NOT be delayed. after 12 drones you make 2 overlords, this will be your max supply to finish the game. After the overlords just 2 hatch hydra. Rally them close to P's choke, but with a little distance, in case if your lings need room to kill a scouting unit, you don't want him to see hydras.
Personally I like to attack when both hydra upgrades finish, this is the timing where P's first corsair comes out. If he has not suspected 2 hatch hydra, your attack will come before he can put down additional cannons. When the corsair sees hydras it is already too late for P.
There are two ways for P to stop 2 hatch hydra, first if he scouts it. I cannot emphasize enough that for all-in builds, if you get scouted you lose. Deny scout at all cost. Secondly, if P gets paranoid and suspects a frontal attack, and makes paranoid cannons early on, your hydra attack will fail. Later I will explain why the paranoid cannon approach is a double edged sword.
3. Two hatch muta all-in (less all-in compared to the previous two)
As soon as you finish off the first probe put 3 drones on gas, make drones but prioritize lair timing, if you have to delay a drone to get lair right away, delay the drone, timing comes first.
Keep making drones until you get close to the 26/26 supply, you may have to stop at 24-25 based on how the game went. Basically when spire starts get your second gas, and when spire is half way, stop drone production, make 2 overlords and save up larva.
Rally your hatches to P's main, 6 mutas followed by 4 scourge, then 1 hatch muta, 1 hatch scourge non-stop to P's base. you should have excess money for a third hatch very soon due to heavy gas consumption.
The first corsair should come out when your mutas are half way to P's base, and the second corsair will come out when your scourge arrive. Usually there is only 1 cannon, possibly with a second cannon morphing when you get there. Mutas go for the cannons, scourge take care of the corsairs. Unless P scouts your build, or he makes paranoid cannons by suspecting mutas, P should not have more than 1 cannon finished in his main by the time your mutas arrive.
Even if P has paranoid cannons, the game is not over. Keep building up your mutas/scourge count, once you have 10-11 mutas, go for a big attack, as long as you clone the scourge accurately on his corsairs you have a decent chance of killing him.
If you successfully destroyed his cannons and corsairs, you can destroy his main base. Shut down scourge production when P stops corsairs or gives up his main, keep making mutas until you have 11 in total. Make a hydra den and drone up while you get hydra upgrades and overlord speed. P will usually make 2 stargates at his nat to retake air control, but you will have enough hydras by that point to break his front, or at least to protect your mutas and overlords. After hydras, upgrade lurker and drop upgrade, finish off P with a hydra/lurker drop before he gets observors is my favorate transition plan if I cannot break P with hydras.
A very important thing to remember when doing this is that as soon as you take control of P's main, send out your zerglings to monitor all expansions. A common plan for P is to make a secret expansion while your mutas are busy killing his main, don't let it happen.
If your muta/scourge attack fail without killing P's main base, you will lose this game. However, unlike two hatch hydra, you don't have to go through with this plan. If after putting down the spire you decided to bail, you can still go for the normal 5 hatch hydra build with an earlier lair and weaker economy. It sets you behind but the game is still playable.
4. 5 hatch macro
This is the simplest to follow, and works very well at higher level, but not so much at lower level. Let me explain why:
Because P plays in the dark, he has no way to tell which of these 4 strategies Zerg will use. Discounting the speedling all-in, which depends on P making poor buildings placements. The other 3 can be played interchangeably anytime. P has to either prepare for everything, or Guess which one is more likely and gamble on it.
For example, remember I talked about paranoid cannons? If P gets scared of a two hatch hdyra, and he makes several cannons at his natural out of fear, it completely shuts down a two hatch hydra build. However, spending all his money at his natural, P leaves his main undefended, and a muta build takes easy win.
Alternatively, if P gets paranoid about a muta attack, and makes more cannons in main, he will have less cannons at his natural, leaving him safe against mutas but death vs hydras.
Lastly, if P gets paranoid about both mutas and hydras, and he makes extra cannons both at his natural and main, then it makes P economically behind vs a 5 hatch macro player, who invested in neither hydras nor mutas, but made a ton of drones instead.
High level P players hate this guessing game, what they will do is to defend both natural and main, but only makes minimal defense and will rely on his micro to save the day. This play style is highly recommendable but very difficult to pull off. However, if executed correctly, it will give P winning advantages should he successfully defend against either all-in attacks, and it will give him a slight econ lead vs a 5 hatch player. Most high level games are played this way.
Now, if this guessing games sounds new to you, you are not alone. Most lower level P players have no idea how to guessing intelligently by reading the zerg player's game plan, nor do they have the skills to play like high level players with minimal defense. What they do instead is just to leave their bases wide open, which is vulnerable to both mutas and hydras, but gains a HUGE econ lead against a 5 hatch player, for skipping on all those cannons.
Therefore, use the 5 hatch continuation only if you are facing someone who knows how to defend correctly, or someone who is scared of your cheese, basically one that you know will not skip on cannons. Against an idot who doesn't know how to defend properly, leaving his bases wide open, only to gain a hugh econ lead over you will just piss you off.
Nice Cheese Combo
A favorate combo of mine that I use for ZvP series, is to open the first game with a two hatch hydra, then follow the second game with a 2 hatch muta while my opponent suspects hydra, and then follow up the third game with a 5 hatch econ continuation, when my opponent is worried about both mutas and hydras.
You can shuffle these 3 strategies any way you desire, as long as you open 9 pool speed and you deny scout correctly. Mixing these with your regular macro builds will make you very unpredictable.
Openings Not Based on Ling Speed, Trickery, Trickery, Trickery
Where 9 pool speed depends on denying scout and playing the guessing game, all-in strategy transitioned from other openings are based on trickery. Typically this requires you to have excellent ling micro without speed to kill the scouting probe, and subsequently deny scouts without speed, which is certainly not easy, but precisely because you did not open with an agressive 9 pool speed, your opponent may let his guard down and be in a world of suprise when your timing attack comes.
Examples:
1. Fake two hatch muta
Open with 12 hatch and go for a two hatch build, purposely let the probe see your fast lair before killing it. Next 100 gas go ling speed, deny scout at ALL cost before ling speed finishes.
As soon as you accumulate 150 gas after ling speed, pull drones off of gas, meanwhile mass only speedlings, and get a third hatch when minerals add up. Hide your speedlings in your base while you deny scout with a small amount of speedlings. Attack P's natural when you have 3 groups of speedlings.
After seeing a two hatch lair build, P expects either fast muta or fast lurker, he will not have many cannons at his natural, a massive speedling attack can usually catch him completely off guard and kill off the natural if not his main as well.
After lair complete put down a spire with the 150 gas you saved up, then put drones back on gas as well as get a second gas. If your opponent managed to survive the ling attack, he now "knows" that your muta build is fake, or is it? Finish him off with a muta attack if your lings didn't do the job.
2. Builds with fast drop upgrades
From two hatch slow lurker drop to fake 5 hatch hydra followed by a lurker/ling doom drop, the possibilities are limitless on how you play this style.
9 Pool Speed Mixed With Trickery? Yep, I Went There
If you were wondering whether the 9 pool speed has any side variations other than the most common ones. You are now really getting into the realm of trickery play, mixing trickery with hardcore scout denying, and only limitation left is your own imagination.
A 9 pool speed -> faster lair -> slow lurker drop, anyone?
The downside of playing trick builds after 9 pool speed is that your opponent is already on high alert after seeing an aggressive opening. Where normally trick builds depend on your opponent letting his guard him, after 9 pool speed P players are usually very careful. However, the fact that protoss is extra careful may work in our advantage as well, since they are highly focused on defending hydras or mutas, they simply don't have the concentration to suspect anything else. Oh, dear psychology.
Conclusions:
Be creative, either abuse speedlings to deny scout, and force P to play the guessing game, or use trickery to deliver an attack when it is least expected, broadening your build pool will make you very unpredictable.
Sure, some noobs will call you names because you use cheese, but if you are truely a versatile zerg, mixing cheese with regular play, and not just a one build cheeser, you will earn your share of respect overtime. As an aggressive and flexible zerg who shuffles all sorts of strategies, including all-ins, regularly, the unpredictability will become a big advantage for you. Even when you play your normal macro game, your opponent will constantly be scared of possible timing attacks due to your reputation, or his memories of getting slaughtered by all-ins.
Suggest All-Ins BuildsTo Me:
If you know a good ZvP all-in build either based on the guessing game, or on tricking your opponent, suggest it in the comment section. If it's good I'll add it into the guide. It is simply too much for me to personally write on all possible all-ins.
Keep in mind that no single guide can cover all strategies. If your suggested strategy is less common, or has theoretical flaws, it will probably not be included, please do not feel offended if that is the case. Even if not put into the actual guide, all suggestions can be read in the comment section, and will no doubt help those who read them. Thank you.
Excellent post. People need to understand the difference between cheese and playing a "non standard" build. I truly enjoy early game as Zerg simply due to the power of scout denial, and the fear and uncertainty the opponent gets from playing in the dark.
Expected of an Smi. player and of an American player. I'll look for you on ladder and you can try this on me. If it fails horribly, I'll be sure to post the replay here.
nice guide w3jjjj this obviously works better on series that in random iccup games, but playing against my friends is considered a series xd... somewhere i read about 3hatch hydra... i really dont know what pros and cons compared to 2hatch hydra, could you elaborate on that? plz :D
Interesting. Despite the amusing accusations of someone a few days ago, I've honestly never played an unprovoked all-in style game on iCCUP (I sometimes all-in in response to enemy cheese).
I thought that the hungry sair timing is in time to spot 2 hatch hydras on route to the main. At least in my experience, it always does. And nony made a post about it somewhere.
On August 07 2009 06:55 onihunter wrote: Will you be providing replays? That would be amazing. Good work good work ^^ another well written guide from you
Last season I have a ton of cheese games but I don't have those replays anymore as I periodically clean my rep folder. I remember cheesing two B+ Protoss 3-0, and they got so pissed, which only adds to my satisfaction.
On August 07 2009 06:56 Nevuk wrote: I thought that the hungry sair timing is in time to spot 2 hatch hydras on route to the main. At least in my experience, it always does. And nony made a post about it somewhere.
Find it for me, that would be valuable to add into the guide.
It's always such a guessing game when you try stuff like this on iccup. I enjoy doing this kind of stuff vs people who's tendencies I know, but stay away from it on ladder games. There's just no way to know how the person is going to react once the scout is denied. Some players will literally make 0 cannons after the initial 2, despite not having scouted since their first probe. And other guys just completely freak out and cannon the shit out of their base.
edit
IDK if this is in the same spirit as this thread. But a pretty funny build you can do is go 2hatch lair, then purposely let the P into your main to scout the quick lair, then just drone up and start playing like the regular 5hatch hydra, as the P gets paranoid about 2hatch muta coming and cannons up their main/makes way too many sairs.
On August 07 2009 05:56 redtooth wrote: wow looks long. will start reading now.
I never understood people like you. ---
A well thought out guide. While I kinda dislike at first when people give good and easily accesible advice against Protoss, I'm happy if it means less cookie-cutting overall.
Variety is not only strength but the beauty in Starcraft.
On August 07 2009 06:56 Nevuk wrote: I thought that the hungry sair timing is in time to spot 2 hatch hydras on route to the main. At least in my experience, it always does. And nony made a post about it somewhere.
Find it for me, that would be valuable to add into the guide.
On August 07 2009 06:56 Nevuk wrote: I thought that the hungry sair timing is in time to spot 2 hatch hydras on route to the main. At least in my experience, it always does. And nony made a post about it somewhere.
Find it for me, that would be valuable to add into the guide.
-sigh- i dont like it but i wholeheartedly agree keep the P player in the dark and suprise him. however, if the p player relentlessly scouts, you are in trouble. For example.. after the gate warps in in the nat, many P players like to make 1/2 zlots and a goon to clear out the lings and force a scout. This may throw a wrench in your plans
oh boy thank you so much After reading your first ZvP guide I learn how to properly do the 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra build and ZvP is clearly my best mu now (although it still sucks ) but I always was annoyed that I was so predictable so this is the EXACT thing that I needed, thanks!!
On August 07 2009 07:36 DreaM)XeRO wrote: -sigh- i dont like it but i wholeheartedly agree keep the P player in the dark and suprise him. however, if the p player relentlessly scouts, you are in trouble. For example.. after the gate warps in in the nat, many P players like to make 1/2 zlots and a goon to clear out the lings and force a scout. This may throw a wrench in your plans
Not with 12 speedlings at his front door. If P tries to sneak a probe out simultaneously with a zeal/goon push, kill the probe first, speedlings are fast, come back to kill the zeal/goon.
On August 07 2009 07:36 DreaM)XeRO wrote: -sigh- i dont like it but i wholeheartedly agree keep the P player in the dark and suprise him. however, if the p player relentlessly scouts, you are in trouble. For example.. after the gate warps in in the nat, many P players like to make 1/2 zlots and a goon to clear out the lings and force a scout. This may throw a wrench in your plans
Not with 12 speedlings at his front door. If P tries to sneak a probe out simultaneously with a zeal/goon push, kill the probe first, speedlings are fast, come back to kill the zeal/goon.
wont 12 speedlings kinda screw up your 2 hatch mutal/hydra timing?
As a T user I would say that this mentality of faking your opponent out is equally viable in ZvT when trying to execute an all in build or sneaking an expo somewhere.
A zerg build (or any race's) that could make a protoss complain of cheese has paid for itself many times over in comedic value before it's even used.
luckily i have devised a build for iccup pvz that nullifies every kind of cheese there is :D people going all-in in zvp is why it is my best matchup at the moment so please follow this guide
On August 07 2009 08:07 inertinept wrote: luckily i have devised a build for iccup pvz that nullifies every kind of cheese there is :D people going all-in in zvp is why it is my best matchup at the moment so please follow this guide
On August 07 2009 06:56 Nevuk wrote: I thought that the hungry sair timing is in time to spot 2 hatch hydras on route to the main. At least in my experience, it always does. And nony made a post about it somewhere.
Find it for me, that would be valuable to add into the guide.
On August 07 2009 08:07 inertinept wrote: luckily i have devised a build for iccup pvz that nullifies every kind of cheese there is :D people going all-in in zvp is why it is my best matchup at the moment so please follow this guide
My favorite build on maps like destination is going fake den at the nat, 3 hat-mutas, they cannon the crap out of the bridges, and at most one cannon at their mineral line. They spend so much money on cannons protecting the entrance to their nat, they have little defense against the muta slaughter.
On August 07 2009 08:07 inertinept wrote: luckily i have devised a build for iccup pvz that nullifies every kind of cheese there is :D people going all-in in zvp is why it is my best matchup at the moment so please follow this guide
please share oh good sir
well the gist of it:
standard FE with 2 cannons before nexus if you dont scout in time. then it branches into:
you see 9 pool - put up a gateway before nexus. trust me, its worth it and will not put you behind.
you see anyting else - go nexus as usual after 2 cannons.
after this, make 2 gateways(or 1 if its 9 pool) and make zealots until about 7. you should then get gas/core. pressure with the zealots and force sunkens. if you see a 2nd gas at his natural expect mutalisks.
while he is doing that you are transferring into a 4 gate mass goon build which will eventually be 6 gate + robo for observer/reaver depending on hydra/lurker (if he goes muta its best for you as mass goons really rapes mutalisks in terms of cost)
after that it is up to your mechanics and intuition gl
On August 07 2009 08:02 DreaM)XeRO wrote: wont 12 speedlings kinda screw up your 2 hatch mutal/hydra timing?
No, 12 speedlings have already been factored into these builds.
On August 07 2009 08:16 Megalisk wrote: My favorite build on maps like destination is going fake den at the nat, 3 hat-mutas, they cannon the crap out of the bridges, and at most one cannon at their mineral line. They spend so much money on cannons protecting the entrance to their nat, they have little defense against the muta slaughter.
Excellent idea, that's a good example of how to trick your opponent. If you have an actual build order down, please share.
On August 07 2009 08:07 inertinept wrote: luckily i have devised a build for iccup pvz that nullifies every kind of cheese there is :D people going all-in in zvp is why it is my best matchup at the moment so please follow this guide
please share oh good sir
well the gist of it:
standard FE with 2 cannons before nexus if you dont scout in time. then it branches into:
you see 9 pool - put up a gateway before nexus. trust me, its worth it and will not put you behind.
you see anyting else - go nexus as usual after 2 cannons.
after this, make 2 gateways(or 1 if its 9 pool) and make zealots until about 7. you should then get gas/core. pressure with the zealots and force sunkens. if you see a 2nd gas at his natural expect mutalisks.
while he is doing that you are transferring into a 4 gate mass goon build which will eventually be 6 gate + robo for observer/reaver depending on hydra/lurker (if he goes muta its best for you as mass goons really rapes mutalisks in terms of cost)
after that it is up to your mechanics and intuition gl
On August 07 2009 08:07 inertinept wrote: luckily i have devised a build for iccup pvz that nullifies every kind of cheese there is :D people going all-in in zvp is why it is my best matchup at the moment so please follow this guide
please share oh good sir
well the gist of it:
standard FE with 2 cannons before nexus if you dont scout in time. then it branches into:
you see 9 pool - put up a gateway before nexus. trust me, its worth it and will not put you behind.
you see anyting else - go nexus as usual after 2 cannons.
after this, make 2 gateways(or 1 if its 9 pool) and make zealots until about 7. you should then get gas/core. pressure with the zealots and force sunkens. if you see a 2nd gas at his natural expect mutalisks.
while he is doing that you are transferring into a 4 gate mass goon build which will eventually be 6 gate + robo for observer/reaver depending on hydra/lurker (if he goes muta its best for you as mass goons really rapes mutalisks in terms of cost)
after that it is up to your mechanics and intuition gl
wont this screw up your core timing?
if you keep in mind your worst threat is 2 hatch muta and play it safe accordingly, not really
On August 07 2009 08:16 Megalisk wrote: My favorite build on maps like destination is going fake den at the nat, 3 hat-mutas, they cannon the crap out of the bridges, and at most one cannon at their mineral line. They spend so much money on cannons protecting the entrance to their nat, they have little defense against the muta slaughter.
this sucks sooo much i've had this done to me on Medusa and HBR alot So many Zergs use their den to simcity their nat's, so my scout doesnt get all the way into the main. I expect a hydra bust and WHAM freaking mutals...
On August 07 2009 08:18 inertinept wrote: well the gist of it:
standard FE with 2 cannons before nexus if you dont scout in time. then it branches into:
you see 9 pool - put up a gateway before nexus. trust me, its worth it and will not put you behind.
you see anyting else - go nexus as usual after 2 cannons.
after this, make 2 gateways(or 1 if its 9 pool) and make zealots until about 7. you should then get gas/core. pressure with the zealots and force sunkens. if you see a 2nd gas at his natural expect mutalisks.
while he is doing that you are transferring into a 4 gate mass goon build which will eventually be 6 gate + robo for observer/reaver depending on hydra/lurker (if he goes muta its best for you as mass goons really rapes mutalisks in terms of cost)
after that it is up to your mechanics and intuition gl
Just how exactly do you plan to hide all this from the overlords?
This is a very nice guide. I've read it once and will probably read it again as it lets me understand what a Zerg is thinking. I already find PvZ on Destination hard enough
On August 07 2009 08:26 Yaqoob wrote: This is a very nice guide. I've read it once and will probably read it again as it lets me understand what a Zerg is thinking. I already find PvZ on Destination hard enough
sMi.lols Fighting!
is it? imo it is very simple turtle hard untill storm and them storm the hell out of the z
On August 07 2009 08:21 DreaM)XeRO wrote: wont this screw up your core timing?
if you keep in mind your worst threat is 2 hatch muta and play it safe accordingly, not really
I'm just gonna left some else trash this.
i could say the same to your guide telling people to cheese. obviously my build isnt for everyone but i have used it until B- with success so i was just throwing it out there. outta here now
On August 07 2009 08:07 inertinept wrote: luckily i have devised a build for iccup pvz that nullifies every kind of cheese there is :D people going all-in in zvp is why it is my best matchup at the moment so please follow this guide
On August 07 2009 08:07 inertinept wrote: luckily i have devised a build for iccup pvz that nullifies every kind of cheese there is :D people going all-in in zvp is why it is my best matchup at the moment so please follow this guide
please share oh good sir
well the gist of it:
standard FE with 2 cannons before nexus if you dont scout in time. then it branches into:
you see 9 pool - put up a gateway before nexus. trust me, its worth it and will not put you behind.
you see anyting else - go nexus as usual after 2 cannons.
after this, make 2 gateways(or 1 if its 9 pool) and make zealots until about 7. you should then get gas/core. pressure with the zealots and force sunkens. if you see a 2nd gas at his natural expect mutalisks.
while he is doing that you are transferring into a 4 gate mass goon build which will eventually be 6 gate + robo for observer/reaver depending on hydra/lurker (if he goes muta its best for you as mass goons really rapes mutalisks in terms of cost)
after that it is up to your mechanics and intuition gl
this sounds like an awful build...
actually, do you mind posting a replay? I wanna see it :o
On August 07 2009 08:16 Megalisk wrote: My favorite build on maps like destination is going fake den at the nat, 3 hat-mutas, they cannon the crap out of the bridges, and at most one cannon at their mineral line. They spend so much money on cannons protecting the entrance to their nat, they have little defense against the muta slaughter.
Excellent idea, that's a good example of how to trick your opponent. If you have an actual build order down, please share.
I wish I did, but sadly, I have made it to mid D+ and have never used a build order.
I know openings like 12 hatch,11 pool, 13 hatch, 16 gas..but I just freestyle after that.
On August 07 2009 08:07 inertinept wrote: luckily i have devised a build for iccup pvz that nullifies every kind of cheese there is :D people going all-in in zvp is why it is my best matchup at the moment so please follow this guide
please share oh good sir
well the gist of it:
standard FE with 2 cannons before nexus if you dont scout in time. then it branches into:
you see 9 pool - put up a gateway before nexus. trust me, its worth it and will not put you behind.
you see anyting else - go nexus as usual after 2 cannons.
after this, make 2 gateways(or 1 if its 9 pool) and make zealots until about 7. you should then get gas/core. pressure with the zealots and force sunkens. if you see a 2nd gas at his natural expect mutalisks.
while he is doing that you are transferring into a 4 gate mass goon build which will eventually be 6 gate + robo for observer/reaver depending on hydra/lurker (if he goes muta its best for you as mass goons really rapes mutalisks in terms of cost)
after that it is up to your mechanics and intuition gl
this sounds like an awful build...
actually, do you mind posting a replay? I wanna see it :o
sure thing...played this last night against a korean http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=18342 i think this is the one where I fuck up my cannon placement but oh well :s
one all in / macro opening i think works well is 3 hatch hydra. In STX vs KHAN. by. hero did this against jangbi. you can either play out the 3 hatch hydra and go allin. or transition to a more macro game and pump drones after faking the bust. Usually protoss over compensates for defense and his economy is weak going into mid game.
On August 07 2009 08:07 inertinept wrote: luckily i have devised a build for iccup pvz that nullifies every kind of cheese there is :D people going all-in in zvp is why it is my best matchup at the moment so please follow this guide
please share oh good sir
well the gist of it:
standard FE with 2 cannons before nexus if you dont scout in time. then it branches into:
you see 9 pool - put up a gateway before nexus. trust me, its worth it and will not put you behind.
you see anyting else - go nexus as usual after 2 cannons.
after this, make 2 gateways(or 1 if its 9 pool) and make zealots until about 7. you should then get gas/core. pressure with the zealots and force sunkens. if you see a 2nd gas at his natural expect mutalisks.
while he is doing that you are transferring into a 4 gate mass goon build which will eventually be 6 gate + robo for observer/reaver depending on hydra/lurker (if he goes muta its best for you as mass goons really rapes mutalisks in terms of cost)
after that it is up to your mechanics and intuition gl
this sounds like an awful build...
actually, do you mind posting a replay? I wanna see it :o
sure thing...played this last night against a korean http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=18342 i think this is the one where I fuck up my cannon placement but oh well :s
well that was a horrible example of the build lol. you build three cannons at nat, he runs some zerglings into your main and kills a gateway. he goes two base muta into two base hydra while you go goons and he dies.
sorry to so negative but it just sounds like a ridiculously bad build rather than some universal anti-cheese build. maybe a better replay would help.
On August 07 2009 06:35 Harem wrote: What about 2hat lair into 5hat hydra?
Doesn't that count as a followup to the 2hat lair mute build?
no, its the same as 3 hatch lair into 5 hat hydra except its 2 hatch lair into 5 hatch hydra.. basically you should only use that build against paranoid protoss players.(ppp)
good guide btw, this is a really strong style of play.
I love using this style of play in a series against the same player and cheesing evvery game except on the last game where i deny probe scout into-> macro, and they've made too many cannons.
This is one of the most impressive, information-packed guides on all of TL. It's also very concise and practical. Well done. This is worthy of being a recommended thread.
I made a thread a while ago talking about how a player can beat a player above his level as Zerg. My favorite opening in ZvP (the 9 overpool) was looked at as cheese, and I really got a lot of shit for even mentioning it to all of the crybabies.
Honestly, I don't see a difference between this and the P going DT/Sair. The Protoss' ability to wipe out an entire expansion with a single DT drives me mad, but there's really no need to complain about something like that. Just because it's hard to beat doesn't mean it's cheese.
Anyway, nice guide. It helped put a clearer picture on a few of the strategies I've been using for a while now.
I, personally, am under the impression that my mechanics (i.e., execution of micro, macro, scouting, multitasking) have best chance to improve in games where I have the initiative. (while on the other hand I learn best about tactical mistakes when watching replays of games I lost).
I assume this is because, having the initiative, you can follow your plan in the head, and are thus able to execute faster, and more consistently, compared to having to react (see last APM thread).
Being unpredictable, inlcuding cheesing, is a good way to gain and keep initiative. Especially on lower levels (i.e., me, C-), where the simple fact of you NOT going a standard 5 hatch hydra or 3 hatch muta (or whatever) is often enough the severely throw your opponent off balance.
I disagree with recommending strategies such as all-in ling/2 hatch hydra (I know you didn't necessarily recommend the all-in ling but still), which only leaves your suggestions really with 2 hatch muta/5 hatch hydra. Although you never even mentioned 3 hatch muta...
The entire point of these builds are mind games with your opponents. I would reserve them for BoX series, or tournament style settings where you know your opponent and you are trying to exploit a weakness in their playing style. When you're playing an absolutely random opponent you have no idea about, I don't understand (unless prompted for some reason because you see poor building placement, etc.) why you would even go 2hatch hydra bust (ofc unless you're ranking up quickly).
This guide is very well written. You deserve a reward. I am protoss player but this guide is still helpful to me cuz i know what to watch for now.
Also
On August 07 2009 17:37 FabledIntegral wrote: I disagree with recommending strategies such as all-in ling/2 hatch hydra (I know you didn't necessarily recommend the all-in ling but still), which only leaves your suggestions really with 2 hatch muta/5 hatch hydra. Although you never even mentioned 3 hatch muta...
The entire point of these builds are mind games with your opponents. I would reserve them for BoX series, or tournament style settings where you know your opponent and you are trying to exploit a weakness in their playing style. When you're playing an absolutely random opponent you have no idea about, I don't understand (unless prompted for some reason because you see poor building placement, etc.) why you would even go 2hatch hydra bust (ofc unless you're ranking up quickly).
People play to win. All builds are fair, and if you are a zerg player you should learn all the zerg builds / tricks. Why would it have to be in a BOX series. People should practice all kinds of builds all the time. Win by any means necessary in my opinion. Who cares if some random opponent on iccup doesn't have fun when they lose to you using a particular build.
On August 07 2009 17:37 FabledIntegral wrote: I disagree with recommending strategies such as all-in ling/2 hatch hydra (I know you didn't necessarily recommend the all-in ling but still), which only leaves your suggestions really with 2 hatch muta/5 hatch hydra. Although you never even mentioned 3 hatch muta...
The entire point of these builds are mind games with your opponents. I would reserve them for BoX series, or tournament style settings where you know your opponent and you are trying to exploit a weakness in their playing style. When you're playing an absolutely random opponent you have no idea about, I don't understand (unless prompted for some reason because you see poor building placement, etc.) why you would even go 2hatch hydra bust (ofc unless you're ranking up quickly).
On August 07 2009 17:44 Probe. wrote: This guide is very well written. You deserve a reward. I am protoss player but this guide is still helpful to me cuz i know what to watch for now.
On August 07 2009 17:37 FabledIntegral wrote: I disagree with recommending strategies such as all-in ling/2 hatch hydra (I know you didn't necessarily recommend the all-in ling but still), which only leaves your suggestions really with 2 hatch muta/5 hatch hydra. Although you never even mentioned 3 hatch muta...
The entire point of these builds are mind games with your opponents. I would reserve them for BoX series, or tournament style settings where you know your opponent and you are trying to exploit a weakness in their playing style. When you're playing an absolutely random opponent you have no idea about, I don't understand (unless prompted for some reason because you see poor building placement, etc.) why you would even go 2hatch hydra bust (ofc unless you're ranking up quickly).
People play to win. All builds are fair, and if you are a zerg player you should learn all the zerg builds / tricks. Why would it have to be in a BOX series. People should practice all kinds of builds all the time. Win by any means necessary in my opinion. Who cares if some random opponent on iccup doesn't have fun when they lose to you using a particular build.
I didn't say they weren't fair, I said there's no point in doing them. The entire "play to win" thing is absolute bullshit. "win by any means necessary" as in doing 2 hatch hydra breaks over and over vs random people? Once again, I call bullshit.
On August 07 2009 17:44 Probe. wrote: This guide is very well written. You deserve a reward. I am protoss player but this guide is still helpful to me cuz i know what to watch for now.
Also
On August 07 2009 17:37 FabledIntegral wrote: I disagree with recommending strategies such as all-in ling/2 hatch hydra (I know you didn't necessarily recommend the all-in ling but still), which only leaves your suggestions really with 2 hatch muta/5 hatch hydra. Although you never even mentioned 3 hatch muta...
The entire point of these builds are mind games with your opponents. I would reserve them for BoX series, or tournament style settings where you know your opponent and you are trying to exploit a weakness in their playing style. When you're playing an absolutely random opponent you have no idea about, I don't understand (unless prompted for some reason because you see poor building placement, etc.) why you would even go 2hatch hydra bust (ofc unless you're ranking up quickly).
People play to win. All builds are fair, and if you are a zerg player you should learn all the zerg builds / tricks. Why would it have to be in a BOX series. People should practice all kinds of builds all the time. Win by any means necessary in my opinion. Who cares if some random opponent on iccup doesn't have fun when they lose to you using a particular build.
I didn't say they weren't fair, I said there's no point in doing them. The entire "play to win" thing is absolute bullshit. "win by any means necessary" as in doing 2 hatch hydra breaks over and over vs random people? Once again, I call bullshit.
And i don't, doing it vs random people helps you learn the timings and perfect the build in itself. The hardest one to stop if you ask me is 2 hat hydra it's just super strong. I'd rather face mutas
On August 07 2009 17:44 Probe. wrote: This guide is very well written. You deserve a reward. I am protoss player but this guide is still helpful to me cuz i know what to watch for now.
Also
On August 07 2009 17:37 FabledIntegral wrote: I disagree with recommending strategies such as all-in ling/2 hatch hydra (I know you didn't necessarily recommend the all-in ling but still), which only leaves your suggestions really with 2 hatch muta/5 hatch hydra. Although you never even mentioned 3 hatch muta...
The entire point of these builds are mind games with your opponents. I would reserve them for BoX series, or tournament style settings where you know your opponent and you are trying to exploit a weakness in their playing style. When you're playing an absolutely random opponent you have no idea about, I don't understand (unless prompted for some reason because you see poor building placement, etc.) why you would even go 2hatch hydra bust (ofc unless you're ranking up quickly).
People play to win. All builds are fair, and if you are a zerg player you should learn all the zerg builds / tricks. Why would it have to be in a BOX series. People should practice all kinds of builds all the time. Win by any means necessary in my opinion. Who cares if some random opponent on iccup doesn't have fun when they lose to you using a particular build.
I didn't say they weren't fair, I said there's no point in doing them. The entire "play to win" thing is absolute bullshit. "win by any means necessary" as in doing 2 hatch hydra breaks over and over vs random people? Once again, I call bullshit.
How is playing to win buillshit? You play on iccup for some other reason than winning? All zerg players need to know how to execute all their builds perfectly. How else will they get the timings down for hydra break withouth doing it over and over and over again?
How do you plan to pull cheese of in a BOX if you didnt practice it extensifly before on a ladder? It's not only play-to-win but also play-to-practice.
On August 07 2009 17:44 Probe. wrote: This guide is very well written. You deserve a reward. I am protoss player but this guide is still helpful to me cuz i know what to watch for now.
Also
On August 07 2009 17:37 FabledIntegral wrote: I disagree with recommending strategies such as all-in ling/2 hatch hydra (I know you didn't necessarily recommend the all-in ling but still), which only leaves your suggestions really with 2 hatch muta/5 hatch hydra. Although you never even mentioned 3 hatch muta...
The entire point of these builds are mind games with your opponents. I would reserve them for BoX series, or tournament style settings where you know your opponent and you are trying to exploit a weakness in their playing style. When you're playing an absolutely random opponent you have no idea about, I don't understand (unless prompted for some reason because you see poor building placement, etc.) why you would even go 2hatch hydra bust (ofc unless you're ranking up quickly).
People play to win. All builds are fair, and if you are a zerg player you should learn all the zerg builds / tricks. Why would it have to be in a BOX series. People should practice all kinds of builds all the time. Win by any means necessary in my opinion. Who cares if some random opponent on iccup doesn't have fun when they lose to you using a particular build.
I didn't say they weren't fair, I said there's no point in doing them. The entire "play to win" thing is absolute bullshit. "win by any means necessary" as in doing 2 hatch hydra breaks over and over vs random people? Once again, I call bullshit.
If you have good mechanics because of practicing the "standard" macro 3 hatch spire~5hatch hydra build, you'd be able to master it. Yeah, you've got good mechanics and knows the ins and outs of this build but, even if you have high eapm, good mechanics, you still have to practice this all-in builds to be able to execute it flawlessly.
On August 07 2009 17:44 Probe. wrote: This guide is very well written. You deserve a reward. I am protoss player but this guide is still helpful to me cuz i know what to watch for now.
Also
On August 07 2009 17:37 FabledIntegral wrote: I disagree with recommending strategies such as all-in ling/2 hatch hydra (I know you didn't necessarily recommend the all-in ling but still), which only leaves your suggestions really with 2 hatch muta/5 hatch hydra. Although you never even mentioned 3 hatch muta...
The entire point of these builds are mind games with your opponents. I would reserve them for BoX series, or tournament style settings where you know your opponent and you are trying to exploit a weakness in their playing style. When you're playing an absolutely random opponent you have no idea about, I don't understand (unless prompted for some reason because you see poor building placement, etc.) why you would even go 2hatch hydra bust (ofc unless you're ranking up quickly).
People play to win. All builds are fair, and if you are a zerg player you should learn all the zerg builds / tricks. Why would it have to be in a BOX series. People should practice all kinds of builds all the time. Win by any means necessary in my opinion. Who cares if some random opponent on iccup doesn't have fun when they lose to you using a particular build.
I didn't say they weren't fair, I said there's no point in doing them. The entire "play to win" thing is absolute bullshit. "win by any means necessary" as in doing 2 hatch hydra breaks over and over vs random people? Once again, I call bullshit.
And i don't, doing it vs random people helps you learn the timings and perfect the build in itself. The hardest one to stop if you ask me is 2 hat hydra it's just super strong. I'd rather face mutas
Wow, way to completely fail at understanding what I said in my last few posts.
Of course you could get your timings down if you want by practicing on the ladder and learning to execute them. I was merely saying that there's no reason to simply encourage using these builds as means to play regularly. You think I haven't used all-in lings? 2 hatch hydra. Of course I have. To get the timings down, and to punish players that have shitty ass building placement that I know I can benefit from.
On August 07 2009 18:51 Navane wrote: How do you plan to pull cheese of in a BOX if you didnt practice it extensifly before on a ladder? It's not only play-to-win but also play-to-practice.
Practice on the ladder, that's fine. Use them in a BoX to win, np. What I was saying was that it shouldn't be a basis, or core strategy you use on a ladder. For example, you shouldn't 2 hatch hydra as your standard build. I know the OP was just trying to say "use variety in your builds," but I see no reason for encouraging this variety. Why should I 2 hatch hydra? Besides "being bored and wanting to mix it up," there's no reason.
My second post was obviously responding to Probe's "play to win" bullshit which essentially means "if you can get to a C with 2 hatch hydra breaks do it over standard play." Because that would be "playing to win."
Progamers doing it would be the tournament aspect I mentioned, where the games aren't vs random people but specific players and there's rewards if you win. Then there's tons of incentive to do it.
Another thing you can do is start lair and let his probe see it but when it dies, cancel lair and start hydra den, but this is bad news for me since i´ve started to pvz and low level zergs are extremely cheesy probably 40% of the games
P whinning about Z's cheeses ? Gimme a efing break ! As if we have a lot of them... Just play z yourself and see what T is doing... Or play T and guess P's opening... Seriously just stop complaining about everything because we already have a hard time to open cheeses with zerg. And even so it's really unlikely that it'll come out flawlessly...
On August 07 2009 21:17 RaiZ wrote: P whinning about Z's cheeses ? Gimme a efing break ! As if we have a lot of them... Just play z yourself and see what T is doing... Or play T and guess P's opening... Seriously just stop complaining about everything because we already have a hard time to open cheeses with zerg. And even so it's really unlikely that it'll come out flawlessly...
I don´t know if you´re adressing me but I play zerg and defending p cheese is easier in my opinion because its easy to scout, and zerg has a lot of options early game very hard to scout and make sense of for protoss, which is probably why I´ll start tvz :/
No i wasn't pointing at you but talking in general. What i mean is that we don't have as many cheeses as PvT or TvZ. So it's pretty lame to see Protosses crying for almost nothing...
Very nice explanation of the builds and ideas behind them.
I have some other potential all ins that could be added to the list. One is 1 hatch lurk ling (jaedong did this against some protoss on demon's forest). He lost but the toss seemed to have chosen a good counter to his build seemingly by luck. Obviously this build will only work on maps where you can hide the fact that you only have 1 hatch.
Another similar all in is lurker ling but from 2 hatch. This one done as an adaptation depending on their cannon placement at natural. The goal is to rush in and take out a cannon or 2 with lings so that lurkers can position themselves to hit the nexus while the toss has no detection in range. I saw mondragon do this a couple of times on ungoro crater and it always worked in the games I saw.
I disagree with something. Scout denying is in my opinion far better with overpool speed than with 9pool speed. It's fast enough to be able to deny any scouting 9pool speed could, and the economy is a lot better. Also, there are some allins that you didn't mention. For example, a 2hatch lurkerling frontdoor bust with about 3 lurkers and maybe 20 lings. This build works even if their building placement is pretty good, and if you manage to take every cannon out, their nat is gone. JulyZerg actually has done this build before.. it's most useful for Medusa. Oh, and some slow drop builds might be nice to include. Zerg basically can do so much stuff against a Protoss and deny the scouting with speedlings so well, it's almost not funny. Almost.
On August 07 2009 21:17 RaiZ wrote: P whinning about Z's cheeses ? Gimme a efing break ! As if we have a lot of them... Just play z yourself and see what T is doing... Or play T and guess P's opening... Seriously just stop complaining about everything because we already have a hard time to open cheeses with zerg. And even so it's really unlikely that it'll come out flawlessly...
Where is this whining? The last couple pages have been a couple of P players saying it's legit to win with nonstandard Z builds while a couple of Z players saying it's better to play standard 5 hat macro. If anything, it's the protoss players defending zerg "cheese." And before that, it's been mostly praise for the OP from all races.
EDIT: To contribute, this guessing game is what makes PvZ a lot of fun for me. My two Z friends always keep me guessing and really make me work for intel. Neither of them go for hydra or ling all ins that much, but I get fast lurkers, slow drop lurkers, 3 base+hidden 4th for massive macro, 2 hat muta pretty often. I'm almost disappointed in how most pro games just end up so standard when both races have so many timing options.
Rally your hatches to P's main, 6 mutas followed by 4 scourge, then 1 hatch muta, 1 hatch scourge non-stop to P's base. you should have excess money for a third hatch very soon due to heavy gas consumption.
Should this hatch be at an expo or should it be in base?
This is a great guide. Think the number one thing though is that most D to C ranked zergs are so focused on macro that they don't realize that destroying any scouting attempts is the most important thing a zerg can do early game. Protoss has to work so much more to prevent certain all-ins, or they have to invest more in scouting, or they have to do something risky when playing against a zerg who has good zergling micro to deny scouting.
In fact, when I see a zerg get 9pool+gas, I ALWAYS hide a scouting probe before the zerg has an overlord at my choke which can spot any probe which comes out of my base. Since when zerg gets speed, your 1st scouting probe in his base will be a goner. :O
O, even if your nonstandard build gets scouted in the beginning, you can continue your trickery as long as you prevent future scouts. In fact, it adds a lot to the mind games. See this hilarious game for details:
Rally your hatches to P's main, 6 mutas followed by 4 scourge, then 1 hatch muta, 1 hatch scourge non-stop to P's base. you should have excess money for a third hatch very soon due to heavy gas consumption.
Should this hatch be at an expo or should it be in base?
I always put it in base, because I won't have enough drones to mine from a third base anyway, might as well stay on two bases and make defense easier. Since this build is successful only if you destroy P's main, it should be 2 base vs 1 base in zerg's favor. If mutas fail to kill P's main, it's gg no matter where you put the new hatch.
On August 08 2009 00:31 Railxp wrote: i jizzed. Will you be the daddy of my larvae?
Umm... 1 hatch lurker isn't that good on anywhere else. But 2 hatch lurkerling frontbust allin is really good, it breaks 3 or 4 cannons really easily even if there are a couple of zealots there.
This is a good guide. Zerg players who are loathe to perform these strategies because they are "cheese" are missing out on a significant portion of zerg's capacity in ZvP.
great shit right here. i always looked at "all-ins" or "cheese" as nothing more than non-standard timing attacks too. good to see you make that distinction.
you really articulate well how to pull-off these strats. much better than a list of psi counts and building names. well done
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.
Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.
Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.
What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that.
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
For a low level zerg, the standard zealot archon after sair into massive gateway production is really annoying to deal with. It's both incredibly easy to execute, and devastating to a zerg that doesn't know what to do. The Zergs you're playing just want to end the game before you get to that phase. If you played a more aggressive strat, they'd probably be willing to play a more normal game.
Back in the day when one base toss was the norm, my first instinct to a toss that was fast expanding was that he is greedy and I must punish him by being aggressive. The game has evolved since then, but I'm just trying to give some insight on how nooby zergs feel about toss' new clothes.
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.
Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.
What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that.
I think bunker rushes, cannon rushes etc are a matter of opportunity, not cheese. Cheese is building two barracks in the middle of the map before you've even scouted your opponent. Like hoping they aren't doing a build that will counter you.
Bunker rushes and cannon rushes are the terran/protoss seeing you're doing a bad job of scouting/figuring out what he's doing, and punishing you for it. If you just send your second overlord to your natural to make sure nothing sneaky is going on, you will never get 'cheesed' again. Obviously it's even more arrogant when they do it under your nose, but that's not hard to stop at all and it's just a 3 minute win. To put it shortly, when you're not seeing what your opponents scout is up to YOU'RE playing the guessing game, not him.
The whole argument that these builds should be saved for a BoX series is retarded. The possibility of non-standard play is one of the things that makes Starcraft so fun. Aggravating as hell, yes, but if everyone played 5hatch hydra vs FE stargate all day, the pro scene would surely die.
If I do 2 hatch muta I like to make lots of lings 1 or 1.5 group of lings and run into the P's main before my mutas come. Then the lings can kill the cannons or at least hurt them a lot so the mutas can easely kill them
PS: How many lings do I have to make to kill 2 cannons? Is 12 enough so if I plan on doing a runby I can just kill the 2 cannons instead if he has not added a 3 cannon?
On August 07 2009 21:17 RaiZ wrote: P whinning about Z's cheeses ? Gimme a efing break ! As if we have a lot of them... Just play z yourself and see what T is doing... Or play T and guess P's opening... Seriously just stop complaining about everything because we already have a hard time to open cheeses with zerg. And even so it's really unlikely that it'll come out flawlessly...
Where is this whining? The last couple pages have been a couple of P players saying it's legit to win with nonstandard Z builds while a couple of Z players saying it's better to play standard 5 hat macro. If anything, it's the protoss players defending zerg "cheese." And before that, it's been mostly praise for the OP from all races.
EDIT: To contribute, this guessing game is what makes PvZ a lot of fun for me. My two Z friends always keep me guessing and really make me work for intel. Neither of them go for hydra or ling all ins that much, but I get fast lurkers, slow drop lurkers, 3 base+hidden 4th for massive macro, 2 hat muta pretty often. I'm almost disappointed in how most pro games just end up so standard when both races have so many timing options.
Which is basically when I said it was good, to play mind games against someone you play repeatedly, or at least know.
On August 08 2009 06:54 Sixer wrote: The whole argument that these builds should be saved for a BoX series is retarded. The possibility of non-standard play is one of the things that makes Starcraft so fun. Aggravating as hell, yes, but if everyone played 5hatch hydra vs FE stargate all day, the pro scene would surely die.
You obviously missed the entire point of the argument if that is your conclusion from it.
LOL, I just played against 2hatch hydra on iccup? sooooo bad, like i run my probe through lings and scout it, and he goes for lurkers which doesn't work out too well
Trickey-ish?: Scouting probe getting chased by a zergling, make the probe see spire (MAKE SURE TO PUT SPIRE AS SOON AS THE PROBE GETS NEAR IT SO THAT HE KNOWS YOU JUST STARTED SPIRE TECH), kill the scouting probe (block ramp is optional) cancel spire as soon as the probe is dead, switch to either fully upgraded hydras ( range and speed) or lurker tech if you can be fancy enough with it
That totally caught the person i vsed off guard and i won :D
On August 08 2009 10:47 EricTakeOver wrote: Wow, that was a great post there.
I really got into the strategies.
Thanks man, I'll definitely try the trickery out
Trickey-ish?: Scouting probe getting chased by a zergling, make the probe see spire (MAKE SURE TO PUT SPIRE AS SOON AS THE PROBE GETS NEAR IT SO THAT HE KNOWS YOU JUST STARTED SPIRE TECH), kill the scouting probe (block ramp is optional) cancel spire as soon as the probe is dead, switch to either fully upgraded hydras ( range and speed) or lurker tech if you can be fancy enough with it
That totally caught the person i vsed off guard and i won :D
I don't understand why that would work. At all. Many Zergs build a spire just to get a pair of scourge to counter sair and scout themselves, they never actually build mutas...
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.
Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.
What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that.
I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol.
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.
Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.
What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that.
I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol.
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.
Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.
What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that.
I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol.
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.
Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.
What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that.
I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol.
Playing standard macro ZvP from D- to Lower C- is NOT FUN AT ALL. I'm not surprised zergs at D keep doing all ins.
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.
Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.
What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that.
I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol.
Playing standard macro ZvP from D- to Lower C- is NOT FUN AT ALL. I'm not surprised zergs at D keep doing all ins.
No kidding. You try to play a straight up macro game and every Protoss just decides to skip defence for a huge econ lead. Screw that. Protoss who complain about these builds are just the users who don't realise how greedy they're being when they don't get any defence.
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.
Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.
What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that.
I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol.
Playing standard macro ZvP from D- to Lower C- is NOT FUN AT ALL. I'm not surprised zergs at D keep doing all ins.
No kidding. You try to play a straight up macro game and every Protoss just decides to skip defence for a huge econ lead. Screw that. Protoss who complain about these builds are just the users who don't realise how greedy they're being when they don't get any defence.
That's usually reacting however when you notice greedy builds. A 2 hatch hydra is pretty much preplanned.
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.
Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.
What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that.
I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol.
Playing standard macro ZvP from D- to Lower C- is NOT FUN AT ALL. I'm not surprised zergs at D keep doing all ins.
No kidding. You try to play a straight up macro game and every Protoss just decides to skip defence for a huge econ lead. Screw that. Protoss who complain about these builds are just the users who don't realise how greedy they're being when they don't get any defence.
That's usually reacting however when you notice greedy builds. A 2 hatch hydra is pretty much preplanned.
any protoss that skips defense for a huge econ lead is usually responding to zergs being greedy and skipping lings. any protoss player that does skip defense in spite of seeing lings is a retard and deserves to die to all-in.
If I get on ICCUP tomorrow and play against of 9-pool speeders I will personally hunt you down for ruining my C-level toss account
On topic: Ummmm yeah.... the thing with 9-pool speed is that it ALWAYS leads 2 hatch which really is for the protoss if he scouts you out. Just put up 2 more cannons and watch the hydras melt lol
I can vouch for that this is the hardest type of Zerg play to play vs. I hate nothing more than to play vs speedling openings, not because I necessarily got a worse win% vs it compared to standard play, but simply by the fact that I feel the outcome of the game is usually out of my hands and its turned into a numbers game or a rock-paper-scissor if you want. With 2hatch hydra pretty much every time the P plays it safe the Z lose, and pretty much every time the P don`t the Zerg wins and the same goes for the 2hatch muta. While the advantage of following up with standard play is also decided by how safe the P plays, if he plays it risky and makes few cannons its hard to win vs an similar skilled opponent, and if you make to many cannons (and the Z will see this due to overlords) the Zerg will usually get a very good advantage that he can most likely ride to a victory, but unlike the other options this can still be turned into very even games where skill still decides the outcome.
To sum up my thoughts I think its really good for series play and a great way to getting into the P players head since it turns it into a guessing game and that sort of turns the game into a rock-paper-scissors and that makes it a great way to beat better players. Simply a great weapon to have in your arsenal, but not something I would advice basing your entire game around if you want to get better.
Great guide! I didn't see it in the recommended threads though, which it should be. ZvP is probably my worst matchup. I just couldn't seem to out-macro protoss with their storms unless they are dumb and macroing out of 2 gateways while having 4 up. Looking at my plight, I started tinkering around with sneaky builds and "all-in" builds like 2hatch hydra. This guide has helped my progress tenfold! I find the low econ/headgame builds a lot more fun to play.
One theorycrafting question: Lets say that your 2hatch hydra gets spotted and protoss manages to get cannons up before your hydras can do anything. Could you get a lair and do a slow overlord drop with hydras onto his main cliff, bypassing all the cannons at his nat? I plan on trying this but my 2hatch hydra never gets scouted, atleast in lower ranks.
On August 13 2009 23:27 Kletus wrote: One theorycrafting question: Lets say that your 2hatch hydra gets spotted and protoss manages to get cannons up before your hydras can do anything. Could you get a lair and do a slow overlord drop with hydras onto his main cliff, bypassing all the cannons at his nat? I plan on trying this but my 2hatch hydra never gets scouted, atleast in lower ranks.
That won't be fast enough. If you get scouted after you have made many hydras, your only chance is to go for an all in attack and hope that it works. If you get spotted very early in the game, you can just cancel hydra speed, go lair and expand, make drones and pressure with 3 hydras to force some cannons. Pray that your lurker comes out before you get killed. Really, you just don't want to be scouted on an all-in build.
On August 13 2009 23:27 Kletus wrote: One theorycrafting question: Lets say that your 2hatch hydra gets spotted and protoss manages to get cannons up before your hydras can do anything. Could you get a lair and do a slow overlord drop with hydras onto his main cliff, bypassing all the cannons at his nat? I plan on trying this but my 2hatch hydra never gets scouted, atleast in lower ranks.
That won't be fast enough. If you get scouted after you have made many hydras, your only chance is to go for an all in attack and hope that it works. If you get spotted very early in the game, you can just cancel hydra speed, go lair and expand, make drones and pressure with 3 hydras to force some cannons. Pray that your lurker comes out before you get killed. Really, you just don't want to be scouted on an all-in build.
Ahh, yeah I thought so. That's what I like about all-in builds, gotta be sneaky and pay attention to fine details. Way more fun than macroing like a bot =p.
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.
Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.
What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that.
I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol.
Playing standard macro ZvP from D- to Lower C- is NOT FUN AT ALL. I'm not surprised zergs at D keep doing all ins.
No kidding. You try to play a straight up macro game and every Protoss just decides to skip defence for a huge econ lead. Screw that. Protoss who complain about these builds are just the users who don't realise how greedy they're being when they don't get any defence.
That's usually reacting however when you notice greedy builds. A 2 hatch hydra is pretty much preplanned.
Absolutely. But when almost all your Protoss opponents are playing greedy (at the lower levels on iCCup), you're still playing a smart meta-game. When you get to higher levels where Protoss players don't need to play greedy to win, then you can play standard and have some ggs.
The idea is that all-in builds react to a trend. I also think that the muta all-in provides adequate options not to be totally cheesy.
EPT
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