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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On August 08 2009 01:39 iamho wrote: do any other z players honestly think using all-in strats are fun? imo they're not interesting enough to ever use It isn't really about fun, it's about winning. | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
On August 08 2009 03:51 Shikyo wrote: It isn't really about fun, it's about winning. Winning is pretty fun to me. | ||
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GrimAngel
United States416 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Yeah, that kinda was what I meant. | ||
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
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omninmo
2349 Posts
i always looked at "all-ins" or "cheese" as nothing more than non-standard timing attacks too. good to see you make that distinction. you really articulate well how to pull-off these strats. much better than a list of psi counts and building names. well done | ||
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tossinYoSalad
United States215 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it? It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything. | ||
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tossinYoSalad
United States215 Posts
On August 08 2009 05:43 w3jjjj wrote: It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything. Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On August 08 2009 05:44 tossinYoSalad wrote: Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame. What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it? For a low level zerg, the standard zealot archon after sair into massive gateway production is really annoying to deal with. It's both incredibly easy to execute, and devastating to a zerg that doesn't know what to do. The Zergs you're playing just want to end the game before you get to that phase. If you played a more aggressive strat, they'd probably be willing to play a more normal game. Back in the day when one base toss was the norm, my first instinct to a toss that was fast expanding was that he is greedy and I must punish him by being aggressive. The game has evolved since then, but I'm just trying to give some insight on how nooby zergs feel about toss' new clothes. On August 08 2009 05:56 Shikyo wrote: What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that. I think bunker rushes, cannon rushes etc are a matter of opportunity, not cheese. Cheese is building two barracks in the middle of the map before you've even scouted your opponent. Like hoping they aren't doing a build that will counter you. Bunker rushes and cannon rushes are the terran/protoss seeing you're doing a bad job of scouting/figuring out what he's doing, and punishing you for it. If you just send your second overlord to your natural to make sure nothing sneaky is going on, you will never get 'cheesed' again. Obviously it's even more arrogant when they do it under your nose, but that's not hard to stop at all and it's just a 3 minute win. To put it shortly, when you're not seeing what your opponents scout is up to YOU'RE playing the guessing game, not him. | ||
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Sixer
United States278 Posts
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Neivler
Norway911 Posts
 PS: How many lings do I have to make to kill 2 cannons? Is 12 enough so if I plan on doing a runby I can just kill the 2 cannons instead if he has not added a 3 cannon? | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 07 2009 23:04 ccou wrote: Where is this whining? The last couple pages have been a couple of P players saying it's legit to win with nonstandard Z builds while a couple of Z players saying it's better to play standard 5 hat macro. If anything, it's the protoss players defending zerg "cheese." And before that, it's been mostly praise for the OP from all races. EDIT: To contribute, this guessing game is what makes PvZ a lot of fun for me. My two Z friends always keep me guessing and really make me work for intel. Neither of them go for hydra or ling all ins that much, but I get fast lurkers, slow drop lurkers, 3 base+hidden 4th for massive macro, 2 hat muta pretty often. I'm almost disappointed in how most pro games just end up so standard when both races have so many timing options. Which is basically when I said it was good, to play mind games against someone you play repeatedly, or at least know. On August 08 2009 06:54 Sixer wrote: The whole argument that these builds should be saved for a BoX series is retarded. The possibility of non-standard play is one of the things that makes Starcraft so fun. Aggravating as hell, yes, but if everyone played 5hatch hydra vs FE stargate all day, the pro scene would surely die. You obviously missed the entire point of the argument if that is your conclusion from it. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
What is your PROBLEM!?!?! This guide tilts me so bad. | ||
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tobi9999
United States1966 Posts
sooooo bad, like i run my probe through lings and scout it, and he goes for lurkers which doesn't work out too well http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=18391 | ||
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Swarmy
Canada70 Posts
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EricTakeOver
United States2 Posts
I really got into the strategies. Thanks man, I'll definitely try the trickery out Trickey-ish?: Scouting probe getting chased by a zergling, make the probe see spire (MAKE SURE TO PUT SPIRE AS SOON AS THE PROBE GETS NEAR IT SO THAT HE KNOWS YOU JUST STARTED SPIRE TECH), kill the scouting probe (block ramp is optional) cancel spire as soon as the probe is dead, switch to either fully upgraded hydras ( range and speed) or lurker tech if you can be fancy enough with it That totally caught the person i vsed off guard and i won :D | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 08 2009 10:47 EricTakeOver wrote: Wow, that was a great post there. I really got into the strategies. Thanks man, I'll definitely try the trickery out Trickey-ish?: Scouting probe getting chased by a zergling, make the probe see spire (MAKE SURE TO PUT SPIRE AS SOON AS THE PROBE GETS NEAR IT SO THAT HE KNOWS YOU JUST STARTED SPIRE TECH), kill the scouting probe (block ramp is optional) cancel spire as soon as the probe is dead, switch to either fully upgraded hydras ( range and speed) or lurker tech if you can be fancy enough with it That totally caught the person i vsed off guard and i won :D I don't understand why that would work. At all. Many Zergs build a spire just to get a pair of scourge to counter sair and scout themselves, they never actually build mutas... | ||
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tossinYoSalad
United States215 Posts
On August 08 2009 05:56 Shikyo wrote: What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that. I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol. | ||
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