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[G] ZvP All-ins, The Guessing Game and Trickery - Page 6

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
August 07 2009 18:51 GMT
#101
On August 08 2009 01:39 iamho wrote:
do any other z players honestly think using all-in strats are fun? imo they're not interesting enough to ever use

It isn't really about fun, it's about winning.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
w3jjjj
Profile Joined April 2007
United States760 Posts
August 07 2009 18:58 GMT
#102
On August 08 2009 03:51 Shikyo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2009 01:39 iamho wrote:
do any other z players honestly think using all-in strats are fun? imo they're not interesting enough to ever use

It isn't really about fun, it's about winning.


Winning is pretty fun to me.
Chuck Norris can salvage his opponent's structures.
GrimAngel
Profile Joined September 2008
United States416 Posts
August 07 2009 19:27 GMT
#103
oh wow my prayers have come true! I've been trying out aggressive ZvP strats and it's great a guide has come! Thank you so much!
Wan step ahead!
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
August 07 2009 19:37 GMT
#104
On August 08 2009 03:58 w3jjjj wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2009 03:51 Shikyo wrote:
On August 08 2009 01:39 iamho wrote:
do any other z players honestly think using all-in strats are fun? imo they're not interesting enough to ever use

It isn't really about fun, it's about winning.


Winning is pretty fun to me.

Yeah, that kinda was what I meant.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
Failsafe
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States1298 Posts
August 07 2009 19:47 GMT
#105
This is a good guide. Zerg players who are loathe to perform these strategies because they are "cheese" are missing out on a significant portion of zerg's capacity in ZvP.


MrBitter: Phoenixes... They're like flying hellions. Always cost efficient.
omninmo
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
2349 Posts
August 07 2009 19:53 GMT
#106
great shit right here.
i always looked at "all-ins" or "cheese" as nothing more than non-standard timing attacks too. good to see you make that distinction.

you really articulate well how to pull-off these strats. much better than a list of psi counts and building names. well done
tossinYoSalad
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States215 Posts
August 07 2009 20:36 GMT
#107
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?
w3jjjj
Profile Joined April 2007
United States760 Posts
August 07 2009 20:43 GMT
#108
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote:
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?


It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.
Chuck Norris can salvage his opponent's structures.
tossinYoSalad
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States215 Posts
August 07 2009 20:44 GMT
#109
On August 08 2009 05:43 w3jjjj wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote:
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?


It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.


Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
August 07 2009 20:56 GMT
#110
On August 08 2009 05:44 tossinYoSalad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2009 05:43 w3jjjj wrote:
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote:
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?


It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.


Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.

What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-07 21:43:52
August 07 2009 21:37 GMT
#111
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote:
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?

For a low level zerg, the standard zealot archon after sair into massive gateway production is really annoying to deal with. It's both incredibly easy to execute, and devastating to a zerg that doesn't know what to do. The Zergs you're playing just want to end the game before you get to that phase. If you played a more aggressive strat, they'd probably be willing to play a more normal game.

Back in the day when one base toss was the norm, my first instinct to a toss that was fast expanding was that he is greedy and I must punish him by being aggressive. The game has evolved since then, but I'm just trying to give some insight on how nooby zergs feel about toss' new clothes.
On August 08 2009 05:56 Shikyo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2009 05:44 tossinYoSalad wrote:
On August 08 2009 05:43 w3jjjj wrote:
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote:
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?


It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.


Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.

What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that.

I think bunker rushes, cannon rushes etc are a matter of opportunity, not cheese. Cheese is building two barracks in the middle of the map before you've even scouted your opponent. Like hoping they aren't doing a build that will counter you.

Bunker rushes and cannon rushes are the terran/protoss seeing you're doing a bad job of scouting/figuring out what he's doing, and punishing you for it. If you just send your second overlord to your natural to make sure nothing sneaky is going on, you will never get 'cheesed' again. Obviously it's even more arrogant when they do it under your nose, but that's not hard to stop at all and it's just a 3 minute win. To put it shortly, when you're not seeing what your opponents scout is up to YOU'RE playing the guessing game, not him.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Sixer
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States278 Posts
August 07 2009 21:54 GMT
#112
The whole argument that these builds should be saved for a BoX series is retarded. The possibility of non-standard play is one of the things that makes Starcraft so fun. Aggravating as hell, yes, but if everyone played 5hatch hydra vs FE stargate all day, the pro scene would surely die.
YO MAN~YOGA PARTY BABY
Neivler
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Norway911 Posts
August 07 2009 22:12 GMT
#113
If I do 2 hatch muta I like to make lots of lings 1 or 1.5 group of lings and run into the P's main before my mutas come. Then the lings can kill the cannons or at least hurt them a lot so the mutas can easely kill them

PS: How many lings do I have to make to kill 2 cannons? Is 12 enough so if I plan on doing a runby I can just kill the 2 cannons instead if he has not added a 3 cannon?
I pwn noobs
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-07 22:42:55
August 07 2009 22:39 GMT
#114
On August 07 2009 23:04 ccou wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2009 21:17 RaiZ wrote:
P whinning about Z's cheeses ? Gimme a efing break ! As if we have a lot of them... Just play z yourself and see what T is doing... Or play T and guess P's opening... Seriously just stop complaining about everything because we already have a hard time to open cheeses with zerg. And even so it's really unlikely that it'll come out flawlessly...


Where is this whining? The last couple pages have been a couple of P players saying it's legit to win with nonstandard Z builds while a couple of Z players saying it's better to play standard 5 hat macro. If anything, it's the protoss players defending zerg "cheese." And before that, it's been mostly praise for the OP from all races.

EDIT: To contribute, this guessing game is what makes PvZ a lot of fun for me. My two Z friends always keep me guessing and really make me work for intel. Neither of them go for hydra or ling all ins that much, but I get fast lurkers, slow drop lurkers, 3 base+hidden 4th for massive macro, 2 hat muta pretty often. I'm almost disappointed in how most pro games just end up so standard when both races have so many timing options.


Which is basically when I said it was good, to play mind games against someone you play repeatedly, or at least know.

On August 08 2009 06:54 Sixer wrote:
The whole argument that these builds should be saved for a BoX series is retarded. The possibility of non-standard play is one of the things that makes Starcraft so fun. Aggravating as hell, yes, but if everyone played 5hatch hydra vs FE stargate all day, the pro scene would surely die.


You obviously missed the entire point of the argument if that is your conclusion from it.
SuperJongMan
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Jamaica11586 Posts
August 07 2009 22:54 GMT
#115
lol... what the fuck man?
What is your PROBLEM!?!?!
This guide tilts me so bad.
POWER OVERWHELMING ! ! ! KRUU~ KRUU~
tobi9999
Profile Joined April 2009
United States1966 Posts
August 07 2009 23:58 GMT
#116
LOL, I just played against 2hatch hydra on iccup?
sooooo bad, like i run my probe through lings and scout it, and he goes for lurkers which doesn't work out too well

http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=18391
"tobi is ur iq 9999? cuz i think it might be u so smart wowowow." -Artosis
Swarmy
Profile Joined July 2008
Canada70 Posts
August 08 2009 00:15 GMT
#117
Trickery is my favourite part of ZvP!
EricTakeOver
Profile Joined August 2009
United States2 Posts
August 08 2009 01:47 GMT
#118
Wow, that was a great post there.

I really got into the strategies.

Thanks man, I'll definitely try the trickery out


Trickey-ish?: Scouting probe getting chased by a zergling, make the probe see spire (MAKE SURE TO PUT SPIRE AS SOON AS THE PROBE GETS NEAR IT SO THAT HE KNOWS YOU JUST STARTED SPIRE TECH), kill the scouting probe (block ramp is optional) cancel spire as soon as the probe is dead, switch to either fully upgraded hydras ( range and speed) or lurker tech if you can be fancy enough with it

That totally caught the person i vsed off guard and i won :D
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
August 08 2009 06:16 GMT
#119
On August 08 2009 10:47 EricTakeOver wrote:
Wow, that was a great post there.

I really got into the strategies.

Thanks man, I'll definitely try the trickery out


Trickey-ish?: Scouting probe getting chased by a zergling, make the probe see spire (MAKE SURE TO PUT SPIRE AS SOON AS THE PROBE GETS NEAR IT SO THAT HE KNOWS YOU JUST STARTED SPIRE TECH), kill the scouting probe (block ramp is optional) cancel spire as soon as the probe is dead, switch to either fully upgraded hydras ( range and speed) or lurker tech if you can be fancy enough with it

That totally caught the person i vsed off guard and i won :D


I don't understand why that would work. At all. Many Zergs build a spire just to get a pair of scourge to counter sair and scout themselves, they never actually build mutas...
tossinYoSalad
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States215 Posts
August 08 2009 06:58 GMT
#120
On August 08 2009 05:56 Shikyo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2009 05:44 tossinYoSalad wrote:
On August 08 2009 05:43 w3jjjj wrote:
On August 08 2009 05:36 tossinYoSalad wrote:
About 90% of zergs just play destination all day and cheese non-stop. Since destination is MOTW this week I've been playing it a lot, and all of my pvz games have been cheese except for ONE. It's always so uncreative too. 3hat speedling all-in, 2hat hydra, 3hat lurker, 2hat muta. You can tell all they do is cheese because when you fight it off they have NO idea what to do, or just gg on the spot. They're always gonna be stuck at d ranks, and are only hurting themselves so its w/e they want to do, but it gets really old fighting the same crap all day. What's the point of having standard play if no one ever plays it?


It's the same when a zerg player complains about getting bunker rushed or proxy gated all the time. Defense is a necessary skill, regardless of which race you use, you need to know how to defend against everything.


Well, I wasn't really complaining about it, rather just pointing out that they're only hurting themselves by cheesing all the time. I'm getting quite good at defending cheese (havent lost to a 5pool in like 2 weeks lol). Cheese is a part of the game and all, I'm just sick of playing against it ALL THE TIME. Every now and then its fun to have micro battles and stuff, but when cheese is encountered FAR more often than standard play it's really lame.

What would you expect on iccup at the D ranks? 80% of the ZvTs I play are against Bunker Rushes. ZvZs are allin lings 95% of the time. If you want to learn how to play standard, I suggest playing with friends or getting a clan... iccup isn't the ideal place for that.


I AM in a clan and I DO play with friends, but its nice to play against random people, and thats kinda what laddering is all about. It just sucks that the ladder is filled with people who like to play 5 min long games trying to get up the ladder, and then you run into them a week later and guess what? theyre the same rank lol.
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