EPT[Translation] Today's ZvP Trend - Page 3
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
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ambit!ous1
United States3662 Posts
thanks for sharing | ||
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StorrZerg
United States13922 Posts
very passive aggresive. i like it  | ||
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Right now its slightly Z>>P, simply because Zerg has two VERY strong openings atm. Hydra/Muta if Zerg see's "oh yea there's not enough sair" (or if theres only 2-3 -> easy scourge target) AND Hydra/Lurk contain which both require completely opposing reactions of the Toss, since you don't want to end up with mass zeal arch ht+robo tech vs mass hyd / muta (mutas can even suicide, they just need to get 3/4 of your temp quantity) or the other bad situation: with mass ground + even goon support but no early robo because you're anticipating mutas... You _HAVE_ to scout 24/7 with a corsair nowadays and believe me for a non-korean this is quite apm-eating. Also you shouldn't lose that one sair because that already can end up being a crucial factor. Of course a better protoss will still eat up a worse zerg & vice versa, however, two players of the same level get to feel this BADLY. I play both match ups, means PvZ and ZvP - and really, as for the Zerg side its really only "macro/micro" that matters atm - the build is kind of set into stones, ye you need to scout his initial bo, but come on, suiciding one ovi to the sairs which would probably die anyway is not really a big deal. If I lose ZvP's then because I either got overmacroed or did a stupid micro mistake. However, in PvZ's I often run in the situation where I had _perfect_ macro (and I'm FAR away from getting that done as Zerg) and still no fucking chance just because I predicted the wrong thing and 2-3 sair + 10 goon were STILL not enough to save my 5 templars except one of them -> instant lose vs 6 group of 1-0 hydra. Sure it's also really really depending on the map, it might be because I play mostly Destination and it's quite favorable for hyd lurk contain AND hydra muta but hey... It just doesn't seem fair as Protoss, you basically do everything right and even if you scout a while, your sair isn't immortal and at some point Z will get rid of it. And THAT is his time to make the mutas, if he makes any. IMO the most important recent change about ZvP is that Zerg actually HAS his mapcontrol and ez scouting back due to the nature of the 3 hatch scourge -> 5 hatch hydra ovi speed build. Means the factor which was hailed as the Protoss biggest advantage through the sair buildorder is gone - the mapcontrol. It's fully back into the Zerg's hands nowadays - still many users don't seem to realise it. Tell me, is it a big problem to run into P main with a single speed ovi and see if he gets an early robo or not? It isn't. And this is the point where you can make your decision whether you go hyd/mut or hyd/lurk. Guess why EVERY Protoss besides Bisu is doing abysmally bad recently? Bisu is just a sicko who's one notch above EVERYONE else in PvZ, he has the sickest macro and micro, don't even talk about his multitasking - which is why he wins games. However, against a Jaedong even Bisu is the clear underdog right now, because Jaedong basically is un-harass-able which - and harass is the reason why Bisu is so good in PvZ. And his timing of course, but JD isn't any less impressive timingwise. Also, please someone come to me and point out how Toss can just go 5-6 sairs w/o even anticipating mutas just to be save against 'em and still win if he's not miles better than the Zerg anyway... Making 6 sairs randomly = gg no re vs lurk hyd if you don't get like 10 or more ovis (doesn't happen to a good Zerg) since your robo will be hilariously late even IF you anticipate lurk. ---> Protoss always has to sacrifice something (army size, anti air, robo timing, etc), while Zerg can just adapt once again. And to be honest I don't expect it to change any soon. PvZ is by far the hardest matchup when it comes down to decision making as Toss - and yea well, as you can see you need Bisu mechanics as well to be really great at it even if you have good decision making. 1a2a3a, eh newbs? | ||
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aeonshifter
United States123 Posts
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Trezeguet
United States2656 Posts
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mucker
United States1120 Posts
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Chill
Calgary26004 Posts
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ix
United Kingdom184 Posts
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jtype
England2167 Posts
PvZ/ZvP is such a challenging yet fascinating matchup. And one that I currently suck at too.  However, reflecting on the history of the matchup and it's evolution cycles is certainly beneficial and can only help to gain a bit of perspective. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
I can't help but think that the majority of the switches are caused by control. Muta-Lurk > Zealot-Temp Required the discovery of incredible mutalisk micro. Corsair > Muta-Lurk Requires the ability to keep corsairs constantly on the move searching and harassing. Neo-Sauron Requires the insane multi-tasking skills that comes naturally to Jaedong. And of course Effort's Zerglings work because his micro is so strong. Ultimately it's always what you can do with your units that matters. The meta-game helps you out but it can't win the game for you. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
On June 23 2009 23:47 iNfeRnaL wrote: ... Nice, i see there are media players outside the usa. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On June 23 2009 23:47 iNfeRnaL wrote: Nice read however I have to disagree with the balance stuff. Right now its slightly Z>>P, simply because Zerg has two VERY strong openings atm. Hydra/Muta if Zerg see's "oh yea there's not enough sair" (or if theres only 2-3 -> easy scourge target) AND Hydra/Lurk contain which both require completely opposing reactions of the Toss, since you don't want to end up with mass zeal arch ht+robo tech vs mass hyd / muta (mutas can even suicide, they just need to get 3/4 of your temp quantity) or the other bad situation: with mass ground + even goon support but no early robo because you're anticipating mutas... You _HAVE_ to scout 24/7 with a corsair nowadays and believe me for a non-korean this is quite apm-eating. Also you shouldn't lose that one sair because that already can end up being a crucial factor. Of course a better protoss will still eat up a worse zerg & vice versa, however, two players of the same level get to feel this BADLY. I play both match ups, means PvZ and ZvP - and really, as for the Zerg side its really only "macro/micro" that matters atm - the build is kind of set into stones, ye you need to scout his initial bo, but come on, suiciding one ovi to the sairs which would probably die anyway is not really a big deal. If I lose ZvP's then because I either got overmacroed or did a stupid micro mistake. However, in PvZ's I often run in the situation where I had _perfect_ macro (and I'm FAR away from getting that done as Zerg) and still no fucking chance just because I predicted the wrong thing and 2-3 sair + 10 goon were STILL not enough to save my 5 templars except one of them -> instant lose vs 6 group of 1-0 hydra. Sure it's also really really depending on the map, it might be because I play mostly Destination and it's quite favorable for hyd lurk contain AND hydra muta but hey... It just doesn't seem fair as Protoss, you basically do everything right and even if you scout a while, your sair isn't immortal and at some point Z will get rid of it. And THAT is his time to make the mutas, if he makes any. IMO the most important recent change about ZvP is that Zerg actually HAS his mapcontrol and ez scouting back due to the nature of the 3 hatch scourge -> 5 hatch hydra ovi speed build. Means the factor which was hailed as the Protoss biggest advantage through the sair buildorder is gone - the mapcontrol. It's fully back into the Zerg's hands nowadays - still many users don't seem to realise it. Tell me, is it a big problem to run into P main with a single speed ovi and see if he gets an early robo or not? It isn't. And this is the point where you can make your decision whether you go hyd/mut or hyd/lurk. Guess why EVERY Protoss besides Bisu is doing abysmally bad recently? Bisu is just a sicko who's one notch above EVERYONE else in PvZ, he has the sickest macro and micro, don't even talk about his multitasking - which is why he wins games. However, against a Jaedong even Bisu is the clear underdog right now, because Jaedong basically is un-harass-able which - and harass is the reason why Bisu is so good in PvZ. And his timing of course, but JD isn't any less impressive timingwise. Also, please someone come to me and point out how Toss can just go 5-6 sairs w/o even anticipating mutas just to be save against 'em and still win if he's not miles better than the Zerg anyway... Making 6 sairs randomly = gg no re vs lurk hyd if you don't get like 10 or more ovis (doesn't happen to a good Zerg) since your robo will be hilariously late even IF you anticipate lurk. ---> Protoss always has to sacrifice something (army size, anti air, robo timing, etc), while Zerg can just adapt once again. And to be honest I don't expect it to change any soon. PvZ is by far the hardest matchup when it comes down to decision making as Toss - and yea well, as you can see you need Bisu mechanics as well to be really great at it even if you have good decision making. 1a2a3a, eh newbs? I agree. Look at this : http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/detailed-elo#tblt-359-1-6-DESC . The second best PvZ'er at the moment is Much, by elo. (I would actually say it's violet, who is only 9 points away from it). There are almost 100 points difference between Bisu and everyone else's PvZ. No one besides Bisu or Violet seem capable recently of taking an equally skilled zerg opponent. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On June 23 2009 21:28 SuperArc wrote: Yeah, I can only agree Savior's zerglings are very strong. He usually wins all battles with zerglings in ZvZ even if the opponent has a superior number. Not against jaedong... | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On June 24 2009 06:58 Cloud wrote: Nice, i see there are media players outside the usa. Are you retarded or stupid? Check TLPD and see how far away EVERY Protoss is from his OWN elo peak in PvZ, look how many games Protoss are loosing vs Zerg atm, even the dragons loosing to worse gamers. As a poster over me pointed out _MUCH_ is the 2nd best PvZ'er right now... nuff said. You are infact the one using media "arguments", cause you just straight up ignored something that was said about your race, obviously being fucking biased and still you had NO chance to even fight my arguments with anything viable. Go troll somebody else without even having a clue about the match up from Protoss' point of view. I also never said its "Z>>>>>>>>>>>>P" I said "it slightly favors Zerg atm" - SLIGHTY, ATM - do you know what that means? PvZ is even my favorite match up because its so dynamic and requires a lot of micro, but I play ZvP too so I understand both sides, and its not easy for either side. Go still believe about the fact that Protoss is just 1a2a3a naive Zerg. You wouldn't believe how badly you would get raped by any decent Zerg if you'd try to use Protoss. End of argument with you cause you ain't got what it takes to argue after all as it seems. Have a nice day. Edit: And I didn't even offend stryker, his job was great - he translated nicely, maybe I should have pointed that out more clearly in my first reply, I do in fact disagree with the AUTHORS statement that P=Z atm, not with Strykers. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
But except you Zerg only users some others did NOT forget how it looked BEFORE Bisu > Savior. It was years and years and years again of Z >>>>>>>> P So please, don't take the history in, because if you do so ZvP is probably still the most imbalanced matchup. However, I think its better to talk about the situation we got right now, because nobody who actually is more a player than a fanboy should care too much about the past. Also the OP even says _TODAYS_ ZvP trend and not yesterdays. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
It's actually because Protoss has been sucking last season overall but this season there are many new promising protoss players. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7665 Posts
Not to mention storm fucking sucks every pvz has a moment where protoss is alive because of a few templars and if those templars get sniped or are used incorrectly you can automatically lose. I think the only think that someone can say about protoss that is condecending is that making large protoss armies and having alot of probes is pretty easy, protoss 'macro' is very simple compared to zerg and terran BUT having the correct timing with those attacks .... lol. TBH when I watch bisu fpvod I can't help but always think "If zerg powered X really hard during Y time-frame this push would be demolished easily" but somehow he understands enough about X and Y to know that his actions are correct. Protoss enjoyed a little over a year of p>z after years of the best protosses getting raped and you kids who haven't been here for years don't even get it. In the old days 2002-2003 I beat 2 protoss pro gamers and 1 strong korean with 2 hat lurker/ling drops against 2 gate into fe/templar play. I have played nearly 80 pro gamer terran games ( amoungst 3 gamers, iloveoov,sea[shield],red[nada] and only ever once had a chance at winning and the pro zergs I played decimated me in that same timeframe. ZvP Used to be terribly unfair and now that it can go either way everygame you guys talk about imbalance?..... losers. P.S Awesome read thank you! I read it yesterday and forgot to drop a thank you!! | ||
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