Even a month is too long a time for the rapidly changing ZvP trend. It must be the third time I'm writing about the ZvP trend since '08. All I have been doing was writing something every time something significant has happened in ZvP. In fact, between the last time I wrote something on ZvP and this time, there have been two changes, so ZvP has evolved even more than I let on.
Why today's ZvP is balanced
Let us talk a little bit about the past, about 3.3 [the day Bisu stomps Savior].
During the 3.3 revolution, Savior and Bisu's builds are as follows.
Muta-lurk, Corsair-dark.
Muta-lurk is the representative strategy of the era. It eats up Zeal-temp. But the build that completely eats up Muta-lurk is the Corsair build, the 3.3 build.
Before the 3.3 build, ZvP looks like this:
Hydra-ling < Zealot-temp < Muta-lurk.
Zerglings and Hydras cannot out-battle Zealots and Templars, while Zealots and Templars are crushed by Mutalisks and Lurkers. Because of this exceedingly simple chain of counters, Zerg simply goes Muta-lurk to own Protoss. Protoss players get owned even as they know that Muta-lurk is coming. That's because there is no build to counter the Muta-lurk build.
3.3 is the day when the Corsair card is played against Muta-lurk. Mutalisks were always weak against Corsairs, but it is realized that the Lurkers' inability to attack air is a huge setback as well. Of course, Bisu's outstanding use of Corsairs as scouts and superb army management cannot be left out of this realization.
Anyway, as a result of these changes, the Zerg's solve-all build falls apart and the Protoss enjoy wielding the solve-all build, which, until late 2007, becomes the definitive PvZ build. The ZvP has then evolved as follows.
Hydra-ling < Zealot-temp < Muta-lurk < Corsair.
During this era in which Protosses walk all over Zergs, Savior continues to attempt Muta-lurk against the Corsair build. Even through the decline of the Muta-lurk build, it is Savior trying to salvage ZvP in his own way. However, even he could not stop the evolution of PvZ.
But there is another Zerg who counters this evolution in his own way. His name is Park Sung Jun. JulyZerg's Hydra-ling out-battles Zealot-temp. As a result, even through the decline of Muta-lurk, JulyZerg remains strong at ZvP.
Here, Jaedong redefines the interplay between Hydra-ling and Corsairs with the Neo-Sauron build.
With Neo-Sauron, Zerg achieves economic superiority, and uses the build that takes most advantage of superior econ -- Hydra-ling. Through Jaedong's efforts, ZvP finally evolves to a complete build cycle.
After this, ZvP has been a chase around this build cycle.
During the era in which Zealot-temp and Muta-lurk are definitive builds, Zergs are strong.
Bisu introduces Corsairs, Muta-lurk and Corsairs are definitive builds, and Protoss is strong.
Jaedong introduces Neo-Sauron, Corsairs and Hydra-ling are definitive builds, and Zerg is strong.
Led by T1 Protoss, the Zealot-temp-2-archon build is introduced, Neo-Sauron and 2-archon are definitive builds, and Protoss is strong.
After this, Muta-lurk revives as a counter to Zealot-temp-2-archon, Muta-lurk and 2-archon are definitive builds, and Zerg is strong.
ZvP's build cycle is completed in 2007. Strategic evolution simply becomes a chase around the cycle and huge favorable swings towards either race disappears. That is why ZvP is now balanced.
Muta-hydra, 2-archon-corsair
During this cycle-chasing era, Zergs of late have been developing something peculiar. After the completion of the ZvP build cycle, the Neo-Sauron style that revolves around Hydras begins to incorporate Mutalisks and Lurkers. Lately, one can tell by the almost textbook opening of Neo-Sauron Hydra-Muta that recent ZvP builds are very dynamic.
The Protoss response is no less impressive. It is the revival of the 2-archon build.
The speedlot + 2-archon build is the prototypical Zealot-temp build. During 1.07, Zeus greatly enjoys using speedlot + 2-archon. After the tremendous evolution of Mutalisk micro, it is discovered that this build suffers terribly from templars getting sniped. Thus, the build is eaten up by Muta-lurk.
But just as Zerg adds Muta-lurk to Neo-Sauron, Protoss adds Corsairs to 2-archon. Two to three Corsairs protect Templars from getting sniped. This becomes the norm. Recent Protosses, particularly Bisu, changes this up a bit, and adds 3-4 more Corsairs for a total of 6-7 Corsairs to snipe Overlords and take the game.
Thus, if Zerg masses Mutalisks and Lurkers, Protoss follows the cycle and masses Corsairs. As Protoss masses Corsairs, Zerg needs to mass Hydras and Lings. This cycle of responses dominates today's ZvP.
It is truly an era in which "the better player wins." In today's ZvP, neither race has a superior build that unilaterally decides games.
Effort's early to midgame Zergling management
The mentioned trend is today's ZvP. These changes lay the foundations of the the build cycle put together by Bisu, Jaedong, and others. Now, a new build starts to wriggle out of the established build cycle.
Management and game sense were two things Savior excelled at. He had a natural talent for managing Zerglings early to midgame.
Even during his debut, Savior's Zergling management was more than impressive. In his first televised game, a 2-0 victory against Pusan, to his impressive victory over Jju on Detonation, to his victory over iloveoov in Cyon, his Zergling management was greatly effective. Savior's good Zergling management has remained effective even today, and as a result, his ZvZ remains relatively strong.
However, in today's ZvP, early to midgame Zerglings are nowhere to be found. Besides denying scouts, Zerglings do not get any spotlight at all. Only after Adrenal do we see mass Zerglings. The reason lies in the Protoss unit composition. With Zealot-temp, 2-archons completely annihilate Zerglings. With Corsair-Reaver, Reavers create a Zergling slaughterhouse. Protoss builds naturally produce Zergling counter units, so Zerglings are nowhere to be found.
Zerglings follow the maxim, "the longer alive, the less effective." The strong attack power of Zerglings does ridiculously well against Dragoons and other units at close range, but once Protoss produces Zergling counter units, no number of Zerglings can overcome them. Therefore, if Zerglings do not get destroyed and stay alive longer, Terran and Protoss can simply change their builds to counter Zerglings, and Zerglings instantly take on no more than the "about to get destroyed" role [presumably to free up food].
Thus, to excel at early to midgame Zergling management, the player must clearly understand his opponent's situation, his own situation, and the current environment. It is a management that teeters at the border, where one mistake can lead to failure. Make too few, all get slaughtered. Make too many, all lose value.
Late 2008, Protoss takes advantage of this fact and pressures Zergs. Protosses go double Nexus followed by 1gate, pumping 5-6 Zealots to pressure Zergs. This timing is before Hydras; that is, when Zergs have to build drones. To block 6 Zealots, Zerg has to make quite a few Zerglings. However, these Zerglings become a waste because Reavers and Archons, which slaughter Zerglings, soon follow.
But Effort is different. His Zerglings are not the response to a pressuring Protoss. His Zerglings are pressuring Lings used to annul Reavers and Archons. It is undeniable that Reavers and Archons slaughter Lings, but that is only when the situation allows for it. If there are no support units or the grounds unfavorable, the Zergling counters become countered by Zerglings.
Effort takes advantage of this small exception. As soon as he scouts the Protoss build with some Scourge, he uses Zerglings to thwart a measly group of Protoss units trying to setup a second expo and messes up the Protoss build.
Once Zerglings effectively pressure Protoss, the saved up gas is then used to pump Mutalisks and Scourge to dominate Corsairs. It is then that the gas-free Zerglings show yet another reason why they are effective.
It is completely different from Hydra-muta. Hydras cost more minerals and gas than one would expect, and as a result, a 3-gas Zerg does not properly produce Mutalisks. Zerglings cost only minerals, and as a result, 3-gas can be converted completely into Mutalisks and Scourge.
Unlike Hydra-muta, losing one round of Mutalisks allows for another round. That is because Hydralisks are not the main combat units. Through the sacrifice of Zerglings, the saved up gas allows for an easy transition into Muta-lurk, and this leads precisely into Savior's ZvP strategy that dominated Protosses for an entire era.
I wrote a lot about Effort's innovative ZvP, but it is up in the air whether Effort himself can continue to lead these changes. That is because Zerglings are Effort's ZvP foundations and their usage window is very narrow. Therefore, it is hard to tell whether Effort's impressive use of Zerglings is due to his good build in general or his personal management of them. That is, is his Zergling play an extension of the 2007 Savior build, or is Savior's build a natural extension of his innovative early Zergling strategy?
This question can be answered simply, because we have Bisu, the best PvZ player of today, or possibly of all time. Therefore, if Effort's build defeats Bisu, then it means that even Bisu's management cannot overcome the build and that the result is due to a clash between builds, one superior and one inferior.
The days of Zeal-temp and Muta-lurk are gone. The current build cycle created by Bisu and Jaedong dominate ZvP today. It remains to be seen whether Effort's build, which has stepped out of the cycle, will end up like a tempest in a teapot or flip ZvP upside down and lead to a revolution.
Some Netizen comments: Pina (mirrored by our own iNfeRnaL): The resources it takes Zerg to tech-switch from Hydraling to Muta-hydra is far less than the resources it takes for Protoss to tech-switch from Zealot-temp to Corsair. So even though the times have changed, Zergs still hold the better card. Bisu has fast hands and amazing multitasking skills so he can out-guerrilla the Zerg.
So it seems like this article is not really 'PvZ' but 'Bisu v Z'...
Kim Yeon Woo's reply: Yes, in terms of switching, Zerg has it cheaper than Protoss.
But Protoss has something over Zerg as well. That is the ability to out-battle frail Zerg units. In terms of comparably expensive units, Protoss units are much more efficient than Zerg units, and Lurkers are needed to turn the tables.
Because these two points are Zerg and Protoss favoring respectively, if each race plays up its advantage, they should cancel out.
Nostradamus: After Storm, I upgrade Maelstrom and use one DA to stop Mutalisks from sniping Templars. Like Zerg's Ensnare, it threatens the opponent's build altogether from working, so I'm wondering whether this fast DA could be the right response... What do others think? I don't think I'm just theorycrafting.
Kim Yeon Woo's reply: In terms of the DA, its effectiveness is good but it delays High Templars. Though gas usage is not too big a problem, clicking Maelstrom in Templar Archives could delay Storm. So even if you pour enough resources to attain both Temps and DAs, they won't be ready simultaneously. It's also hard to do this in addition to getting a Robo for Observers.
So the unit you can get at the same time, Corsairs, seem to be a better choice.
Some scrub: I'm wondering if Effort owning Stork was something else, because yesterday Stork did a very risky build. If he succeeded with it, it would have been great, but clearly it was a big risk.
Kim Yeon Woo's reply: First, the Zergling strat is good when the scourge scouts a fast third expo.
If there are at most 2 gateways, then the Protoss is going High Temps with photons leading to a fast third. This build is popular on maps that beg for it, such as God's Garden.
I'm wondering, if Zerglings can be put more to use, can they be more useful than in this case? As for now, it seems that 'harassing Protoss' third' is the only really effective use for it. Often, Protoss just makes 6 gateways before making a third.
Kim Yeon Woo's reply: Because Lair-timing battles are advantageous for the Protoss, Zerg must play defensively until Hive. If Zerg goes Hive, Protoss tries to match the Zerg's expo count. Otherwise, with the han-bang Protoss takes some advantage with Lair-timing battles.
I don't know too well for TvZ. I'm a toss user... [in response to another question -- now we know he plays Toss!]
A very interesting read. Thanks a lot. I generally find that the translated articles are much more original and demonstrate a deeper understanding of the game. While I appreciate the efforts of the writers on this site too many of them feel the need to trot out a bunch of tired cliches and overblown hyperbole. They could learn a lot from this article's style.
Calm has also been seen using the ling-heavy muta/scourge builds too, particularly on Destination, and I recall him also using the build on God's Garden. Him and Effort are the two main Zerg players that really deviate from the standard and popular hydra based builds lately.
Effort also deviates from the popular ZvT builds as well, and not surprisingly, his builds in ZvT also pays homage to the old ideas that Savior used during his era. All in all, Effort has been one of the most interesting of the new generation Zerg players.
Thanks for translating! I've noticed that Effort seems to like using lings, but I never figured out why he deviated from the norm. That article cleared it up. Can someone elaborate a bit on lings tearing apart reavers and archons when they're unsupported? It makes sense, but I don't recall ever seeing Protosses sending out reavers or archons without support.
Very informative post! Nice. Could you add VODs to the particular examples too? That would make it better
I think what you mentioned about the zergling narrow timing window is too risky imo. I think Protoss will learn to adapt. I've also seen quite a few P's going goon-heavy earlier. Such an ironic play by P when Z goes ling heavy early on
On June 23 2009 14:18 AzureEye wrote: Very informative post! Nice. Could you add VODs to the particular examples too? That would make it better
I think what you mentioned about the zergling narrow timing window is too risky imo. I think Protoss will learn to adapt. I've also seen quite a few P's going goon-heavy earlier. Such an ironic play by P when Z goes ling heavy early on
On June 23 2009 14:31 qrs wrote: Excellent article; I enjoyed the insight. Thanks for the translation.
PS- The English idiom for "whirlpool in a cup of water" is "tempest in a teacup".
PPS- I wonder if this will stop Plexa from saying that Jaedong never innovates anything.
Thanks, fixed.
eh... i thought it was tempest in a teapot =\
OK, fine, I Googled it. Verdict: "tempest in a teapot" most common American version, "storm in a teacup" most common British version, various other combinations of ill weather and houseware, including, but not limited to "tempest in a teacup" and "storm in a teapot" also extant.
Thanks for the translation. Was effort the first to use this build? Because Luxury and Jaedong were using it in 50% of their ZvPs last season. To clarify, they went 3hat spire, then start pumping lings off 3hat while getting a 4th hat, vs this current trend of getting 5hat hydra. Savior also used this build vs Bisu on Neo Harmony and won.
On June 23 2009 16:06 samachking wrote: Thanks for the translation. Was effort the first to use this build? Because Luxury and Jaedong were using it in 50% of their ZvPs last season. To clarify, they went 3hat spire, then start pumping lings off 3hat while getting a 4th hat, vs this current trend of getting 5hat hydra. Savior also used this build vs Bisu on Neo Harmony and won.
Savior's build against Bisu was all-inish. His Zerglings weren't meant to pressure Protoss from taking a 3rd. It was a timing attack meant to do damage to his econ before Bisu's army materialized.
Thanks. Really informative translation. I liked the logic and reasoning behind it all. You could use bold or something to make different parts more distinguishable. Please translate more whenever you can.
Yeah, I can only agree Savior's zerglings are very strong. He usually wins all battles with zerglings in ZvZ even if the opponent has a superior number.
watched efforts game, used his hydra gas on scourge instead with mutas to get an air advantage. froced pure to stay inside his base and then went turtle sunk/spore till ultra/defiler tech kicked in.
Nice read however I have to disagree with the balance stuff. Right now its slightly Z>>P, simply because Zerg has two VERY strong openings atm. Hydra/Muta if Zerg see's "oh yea there's not enough sair" (or if theres only 2-3 -> easy scourge target) AND Hydra/Lurk contain which both require completely opposing reactions of the Toss, since you don't want to end up with mass zeal arch ht+robo tech vs mass hyd / muta (mutas can even suicide, they just need to get 3/4 of your temp quantity) or the other bad situation: with mass ground + even goon support but no early robo because you're anticipating mutas... You _HAVE_ to scout 24/7 with a corsair nowadays and believe me for a non-korean this is quite apm-eating. Also you shouldn't lose that one sair because that already can end up being a crucial factor. Of course a better protoss will still eat up a worse zerg & vice versa, however, two players of the same level get to feel this BADLY. I play both match ups, means PvZ and ZvP - and really, as for the Zerg side its really only "macro/micro" that matters atm - the build is kind of set into stones, ye you need to scout his initial bo, but come on, suiciding one ovi to the sairs which would probably die anyway is not really a big deal. If I lose ZvP's then because I either got overmacroed or did a stupid micro mistake. However, in PvZ's I often run in the situation where I had _perfect_ macro (and I'm FAR away from getting that done as Zerg) and still no fucking chance just because I predicted the wrong thing and 2-3 sair + 10 goon were STILL not enough to save my 5 templars except one of them -> instant lose vs 6 group of 1-0 hydra. Sure it's also really really depending on the map, it might be because I play mostly Destination and it's quite favorable for hyd lurk contain AND hydra muta but hey... It just doesn't seem fair as Protoss, you basically do everything right and even if you scout a while, your sair isn't immortal and at some point Z will get rid of it. And THAT is his time to make the mutas, if he makes any.
IMO the most important recent change about ZvP is that Zerg actually HAS his mapcontrol and ez scouting back due to the nature of the 3 hatch scourge -> 5 hatch hydra ovi speed build.
Means the factor which was hailed as the Protoss biggest advantage through the sair buildorder is gone - the mapcontrol. It's fully back into the Zerg's hands nowadays - still many users don't seem to realise it. Tell me, is it a big problem to run into P main with a single speed ovi and see if he gets an early robo or not? It isn't. And this is the point where you can make your decision whether you go hyd/mut or hyd/lurk. Guess why EVERY Protoss besides Bisu is doing abysmally bad recently? Bisu is just a sicko who's one notch above EVERYONE else in PvZ, he has the sickest macro and micro, don't even talk about his multitasking - which is why he wins games. However, against a Jaedong even Bisu is the clear underdog right now, because Jaedong basically is un-harass-able which - and harass is the reason why Bisu is so good in PvZ. And his timing of course, but JD isn't any less impressive timingwise.
Also, please someone come to me and point out how Toss can just go 5-6 sairs w/o even anticipating mutas just to be save against 'em and still win if he's not miles better than the Zerg anyway...
Making 6 sairs randomly = gg no re vs lurk hyd if you don't get like 10 or more ovis (doesn't happen to a good Zerg) since your robo will be hilariously late even IF you anticipate lurk.
---> Protoss always has to sacrifice something (army size, anti air, robo timing, etc), while Zerg can just adapt once again.
And to be honest I don't expect it to change any soon. PvZ is by far the hardest matchup when it comes down to decision making as Toss - and yea well, as you can see you need Bisu mechanics as well to be really great at it even if you have good decision making. 1a2a3a, eh newbs?
PvZ is a very interesting matchup but as infernal says it makes me wonder why protoss gets all the flak for being an easy race. Terran players not understanding that P's advantage in PvT is reflected in the difficulty of PvZ?
I can't help but think that the majority of the switches are caused by control.
Muta-Lurk > Zealot-Temp Required the discovery of incredible mutalisk micro. Corsair > Muta-Lurk Requires the ability to keep corsairs constantly on the move searching and harassing. Neo-Sauron Requires the insane multi-tasking skills that comes naturally to Jaedong. And of course Effort's Zerglings work because his micro is so strong.
Ultimately it's always what you can do with your units that matters. The meta-game helps you out but it can't win the game for you.
On June 23 2009 23:47 iNfeRnaL wrote: Nice read however I have to disagree with the balance stuff. Right now its slightly Z>>P, simply because Zerg has two VERY strong openings atm. Hydra/Muta if Zerg see's "oh yea there's not enough sair" (or if theres only 2-3 -> easy scourge target) AND Hydra/Lurk contain which both require completely opposing reactions of the Toss, since you don't want to end up with mass zeal arch ht+robo tech vs mass hyd / muta (mutas can even suicide, they just need to get 3/4 of your temp quantity) or the other bad situation: with mass ground + even goon support but no early robo because you're anticipating mutas... You _HAVE_ to scout 24/7 with a corsair nowadays and believe me for a non-korean this is quite apm-eating. Also you shouldn't lose that one sair because that already can end up being a crucial factor. Of course a better protoss will still eat up a worse zerg & vice versa, however, two players of the same level get to feel this BADLY. I play both match ups, means PvZ and ZvP - and really, as for the Zerg side its really only "macro/micro" that matters atm - the build is kind of set into stones, ye you need to scout his initial bo, but come on, suiciding one ovi to the sairs which would probably die anyway is not really a big deal. If I lose ZvP's then because I either got overmacroed or did a stupid micro mistake. However, in PvZ's I often run in the situation where I had _perfect_ macro (and I'm FAR away from getting that done as Zerg) and still no fucking chance just because I predicted the wrong thing and 2-3 sair + 10 goon were STILL not enough to save my 5 templars except one of them -> instant lose vs 6 group of 1-0 hydra. Sure it's also really really depending on the map, it might be because I play mostly Destination and it's quite favorable for hyd lurk contain AND hydra muta but hey... It just doesn't seem fair as Protoss, you basically do everything right and even if you scout a while, your sair isn't immortal and at some point Z will get rid of it. And THAT is his time to make the mutas, if he makes any.
IMO the most important recent change about ZvP is that Zerg actually HAS his mapcontrol and ez scouting back due to the nature of the 3 hatch scourge -> 5 hatch hydra ovi speed build.
Means the factor which was hailed as the Protoss biggest advantage through the sair buildorder is gone - the mapcontrol. It's fully back into the Zerg's hands nowadays - still many users don't seem to realise it. Tell me, is it a big problem to run into P main with a single speed ovi and see if he gets an early robo or not? It isn't. And this is the point where you can make your decision whether you go hyd/mut or hyd/lurk. Guess why EVERY Protoss besides Bisu is doing abysmally bad recently? Bisu is just a sicko who's one notch above EVERYONE else in PvZ, he has the sickest macro and micro, don't even talk about his multitasking - which is why he wins games. However, against a Jaedong even Bisu is the clear underdog right now, because Jaedong basically is un-harass-able which - and harass is the reason why Bisu is so good in PvZ. And his timing of course, but JD isn't any less impressive timingwise.
Also, please someone come to me and point out how Toss can just go 5-6 sairs w/o even anticipating mutas just to be save against 'em and still win if he's not miles better than the Zerg anyway...
Making 6 sairs randomly = gg no re vs lurk hyd if you don't get like 10 or more ovis (doesn't happen to a good Zerg) since your robo will be hilariously late even IF you anticipate lurk.
---> Protoss always has to sacrifice something (army size, anti air, robo timing, etc), while Zerg can just adapt once again.
And to be honest I don't expect it to change any soon. PvZ is by far the hardest matchup when it comes down to decision making as Toss - and yea well, as you can see you need Bisu mechanics as well to be really great at it even if you have good decision making. 1a2a3a, eh newbs?
I agree. Look at this : http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/detailed-elo#tblt-359-1-6-DESC . The second best PvZ'er at the moment is Much, by elo. (I would actually say it's violet, who is only 9 points away from it). There are almost 100 points difference between Bisu and everyone else's PvZ. No one besides Bisu or Violet seem capable recently of taking an equally skilled zerg opponent.
On June 23 2009 21:28 SuperArc wrote: Yeah, I can only agree Savior's zerglings are very strong. He usually wins all battles with zerglings in ZvZ even if the opponent has a superior number.
Nice, i see there are media players outside the usa.
Are you retarded or stupid? Check TLPD and see how far away EVERY Protoss is from his OWN elo peak in PvZ, look how many games Protoss are loosing vs Zerg atm, even the dragons loosing to worse gamers. As a poster over me pointed out _MUCH_ is the 2nd best PvZ'er right now... nuff said. You are infact the one using media "arguments", cause you just straight up ignored something that was said about your race, obviously being fucking biased and still you had NO chance to even fight my arguments with anything viable. Go troll somebody else without even having a clue about the match up from Protoss' point of view.
I also never said its "Z>>>>>>>>>>>>P" I said "it slightly favors Zerg atm" - SLIGHTY, ATM - do you know what that means? PvZ is even my favorite match up because its so dynamic and requires a lot of micro, but I play ZvP too so I understand both sides, and its not easy for either side. Go still believe about the fact that Protoss is just 1a2a3a naive Zerg. You wouldn't believe how badly you would get raped by any decent Zerg if you'd try to use Protoss. End of argument with you cause you ain't got what it takes to argue after all as it seems. Have a nice day.
Edit: And I didn't even offend stryker, his job was great - he translated nicely, maybe I should have pointed that out more clearly in my first reply, I do in fact disagree with the AUTHORS statement that P=Z atm, not with Strykers.
Obviously Z>P if Protoss have won more than half the games (albeit by a small margin) ever since Bisu beat Savior. The dearth of protoss players right now is more than accounted for a season ago with protoss kicking butt everywhere. It all balances out, such nitpicking.
I said atm, again, atm means AT THE MOMENT, yes, after the Bisu>Savior phase everyone been screaming uh uh Protoss is imba. But except you Zerg only users some others did NOT forget how it looked BEFORE Bisu > Savior. It was years and years and years again of Z >>>>>>>> P So please, don't take the history in, because if you do so ZvP is probably still the most imbalanced matchup. However, I think its better to talk about the situation we got right now, because nobody who actually is more a player than a fanboy should care too much about the past. Also the OP even says _TODAYS_ ZvP trend and not yesterdays.
OP says today's ZvP trend is balanced and you say it isn't? It's actually because Protoss has been sucking last season overall but this season there are many new promising protoss players.
Anybody who believes protoss is 1a2a3a4a pvz is really fucking stupid. Now PvT there are alot of situations just like ZvP where protoss is simply streaming super-powered units but overall the matchup for protoss is fucking hard. Protoss falls for so many tech/low eco timings from FE that you have to have excellent probe scouting mechanics to even have a chance of living threw 1 of the 3 main ones (2 hat hydra-2hat muta 3 hat ling).
Not to mention storm fucking sucks every pvz has a moment where protoss is alive because of a few templars and if those templars get sniped or are used incorrectly you can automatically lose.
I think the only think that someone can say about protoss that is condecending is that making large protoss armies and having alot of probes is pretty easy, protoss 'macro' is very simple compared to zerg and terran BUT having the correct timing with those attacks .... lol.
TBH when I watch bisu fpvod I can't help but always think "If zerg powered X really hard during Y time-frame this push would be demolished easily" but somehow he understands enough about X and Y to know that his actions are correct.
Protoss enjoyed a little over a year of p>z after years of the best protosses getting raped and you kids who haven't been here for years don't even get it.
In the old days 2002-2003 I beat 2 protoss pro gamers and 1 strong korean with 2 hat lurker/ling drops against 2 gate into fe/templar play. I have played nearly 80 pro gamer terran games ( amoungst 3 gamers, iloveoov,sea[shield],red[nada] and only ever once had a chance at winning and the pro zergs I played decimated me in that same timeframe. ZvP Used to be terribly unfair and now that it can go either way everygame you guys talk about imbalance?..... losers.
P.S Awesome read thank you! I read it yesterday and forgot to drop a thank you!!
Nice, i see there are media players outside the usa.
Are you retarded or stupid? Check TLPD and see how far away EVERY Protoss is from his OWN elo peak in PvZ, look how many games Protoss are loosing vs Zerg atm, even the dragons loosing to worse gamers. As a poster over me pointed out _MUCH_ is the 2nd best PvZ'er right now... nuff said. You are infact the one using media "arguments", cause you just straight up ignored something that was said about your race, obviously being fucking biased and still you had NO chance to even fight my arguments with anything viable. Go troll somebody else without even having a clue about the match up from Protoss' point of view.
I also never said its "Z>>>>>>>>>>>>P" I said "it slightly favors Zerg atm" - SLIGHTY, ATM - do you know what that means? PvZ is even my favorite match up because its so dynamic and requires a lot of micro, but I play ZvP too so I understand both sides, and its not easy for either side. Go still believe about the fact that Protoss is just 1a2a3a naive Zerg. You wouldn't believe how badly you would get raped by any decent Zerg if you'd try to use Protoss. End of argument with you cause you ain't got what it takes to argue after all as it seems. Have a nice day.
Edit: And I didn't even offend stryker, his job was great - he translated nicely, maybe I should have pointed that out more clearly in my first reply, I do in fact disagree with the AUTHORS statement that P=Z atm, not with Strykers.
You scream at protoss not being able to win, then you say its just 'slightly in the favor of zerg'?
And most of your arguments not counting your progaming stats, are just bitching that its too hard to keep up with 'zergs that got a clue', i mean whatever, its not like you are ever going to concede with such devastating logic, so im not gonna bother talking about how hard zvp is from the zergs side.
P.S Awesome read thank you! I read it yesterday and forgot to drop a thank you!!
Thanks! I read it and I knew I had to share it. In terms of stats, ZvP is very close to balanced now, with maps playing a much bigger role than the old days of ZvP imbalance. I looked through the Hot Maps list on TLPD and the stats are just about even, though I didn't see how many wins were due to Bisu.
Kim Yeon Woo has a bunch of other articles that are worth reading, and I might get to translating them too. He has this particular one on determining racial superiority via statistics, looking at the performance of top 1-8 players in each race vs. the top 9-16, and so on. Pretty damn long article though.
P.S Awesome read thank you! I read it yesterday and forgot to drop a thank you!!
Thanks! I read it and I knew I had to share it. In terms of stats, ZvP is very close to balanced now, with maps playing a much bigger role than the old days of ZvP imbalance. I looked through the Hot Maps list on TLPD and the stats are just about even, though I didn't see how many wins were due to Bisu.
Kim Yeon Woo has a bunch of other articles that are worth reading, and I might get to translating them too. He has this particular one on determining racial superiority via statistics, looking at the performance of top 1-8 players in each race vs. the top 9-16, and so on. Pretty damn long article though.
Thank you for translating this, very interesting thread. It would be awesome if you could do more.
Also when people make 1a2a3a jokes, they are referring to low level (D and C ranks) players rather than the pro level.
But yes, currently it seems Zerg has a good advantage over Protoss from watching the recent games. (I personally think the T>>Z balance is currently worse though).
Nice, i see there are media players outside the usa.
Are you retarded or stupid? Check TLPD and see how far away EVERY Protoss is from his OWN elo peak in PvZ, look how many games Protoss are loosing vs Zerg atm, even the dragons loosing to worse gamers. As a poster over me pointed out _MUCH_ is the 2nd best PvZ'er right now... nuff said. You are infact the one using media "arguments", cause you just straight up ignored something that was said about your race, obviously being fucking biased and still you had NO chance to even fight my arguments with anything viable. Go troll somebody else without even having a clue about the match up from Protoss' point of view.
I also never said its "Z>>>>>>>>>>>>P" I said "it slightly favors Zerg atm" - SLIGHTY, ATM - do you know what that means? PvZ is even my favorite match up because its so dynamic and requires a lot of micro, but I play ZvP too so I understand both sides, and its not easy for either side. Go still believe about the fact that Protoss is just 1a2a3a naive Zerg. You wouldn't believe how badly you would get raped by any decent Zerg if you'd try to use Protoss. End of argument with you cause you ain't got what it takes to argue after all as it seems. Have a nice day.
Edit: And I didn't even offend stryker, his job was great - he translated nicely, maybe I should have pointed that out more clearly in my first reply, I do in fact disagree with the AUTHORS statement that P=Z atm, not with Strykers.
You scream at protoss not being able to win, then you say its just 'slightly in the favor of zerg'?
And most of your arguments not counting your progaming stats, are just bitching that its too hard to keep up with 'zergs that got a clue', i mean whatever, its not like you are ever going to concede with such devastating logic, so im not gonna bother talking about how hard zvp is from the zergs side.
Oh, you can actually even post something more than one stupid sentence. I don't know how hard ZvP is for Z? Did you read what I fucking wrote? I'm Protoss but ZvP only. Also I never said winning Zerg is impossible, go try to read what I wrote again. I wrote if Protoss gets into situation a) he can easily lose to situation b) of Zerg. What I did not elaborate too much (because I assumed people would take it for granted) is that of course, if Protoss assumes or even scouts lurker/hyd its his own fucking fault if he loses to it. Then he was obviously just outplayed. However, if you guess the right tech its quite balanced given then fact that both players are equal skill range (ALSO mentioned the skill range thing above) - if you don't guess the right thing it might just be a matter of 10-15 seconds for you to adapt - enough for the Zerg to either pick all your templars or set up a contain. Sure, you can still win after you lost temps or got contained - but not vs an equally skilled Zerg if he doesn't screw something up big time.
I agree with you that the pace of ZvP is insanely fast nowadays, thus its very hard to play ZvP vs a really good P, I don't care if its "harder" or not to play a really good Z, its just much much more about the decisions you make whether you can win a game or not than about macro and micro for P. Personally I'm a macro player thus macro / micro is probably the part I'm best at which means ZvP naturally comes easier to me being the Zerg part. I never whined that PvZ is ez win for Z did I? The Zergs I play with are mostly in ToT, ESC, or equally skilled, so yea, I guess I can bitch about "Zerg's who got a clue" - or would you say the opposite about Ret, Mondragon, Naugrim & co? Don't go like "ohh but they rape you with ease anyway" because that would be YOU bitching, right?
I know what I'm doing in PvZ and I rape most Zergs as if they're nothing after all. Doesn't mean I'm perfect or special or anything, I just played waaaay more PvZ on high level than most other persons and to be honest I'm quite bad for how much I have played in my life. And with my limited talent that I have (not the race Protoss in general), it seems like I cannot seem to deal with these kind of strategies - and oh surprise - look at the trend in Proleague etc - I am not the only one, yes, Movie and Violet are promising but come on. That's 2 exceptions out of like 25 - okay, add Bisu to that and we have 3. I'm sorry.
My logic isn't devastating but rather rationally based on what I experience while gaming myself and what I see going on in the pro scene. Its just a state of BW right now, and I never said it won't change pretty soon. Personally I have faith in Bisu showing us some way to deal with both OR how to really recognize which of both is coming - however it seems Bisu got his answer - have 400 apm and use the sair to go all around the map while never loosing it. Did you ever try to fly through a Zerg / Protoss base with overlords or any other air units 10x without loosing it and still keep up with macro, timing, eco? That would be a good comparison for you. I know Zerg is hard as well, you have to dodge storms non stop if you play hydra-intense, you need to have nice macro as well meanwhile and yea, even sniping the sair is fucking hard as Zerg - even with scourges - if the P knows what he's doing. I also know that you can lose a whole game because of 5 drones you lost and P just kept on pressuring you with better eco. I know what happens if I do ~10 drones too much and miss my timing window against +1 zealot rush. I know what happens if I don't fucking see a DT sneaking by. I know what happens if I do mutas and didn't realize that the Toss has been pumping sairs meanwhile. BUT I also know what was wrong, it was just me not being concentrated enough, doing a sloppy mechanic wise mistake here and there. The problem I run into as Protoss is that often I seemed to have done everything right, and still lose all my temps to 11 mutas because my 3 sairs get sniped while the attack (not that hard to do as Zerg, is it?) and my 12 goons are unable to protect my temps. Means pretty much you're doing what you were supposed to do and still get raped. Now if that isn't frustrating, then I don't know? Again, situation above requires the Zerg to have really good muta micro - else he shouldn't ever be doing mutas. I know that being a really good Zerg also requires atleast 200-250 apm, again, I never said Zerg was fucking easy. I know there is similar situations as Zerg. I know that I simply need to improve even more in order to storm that little notch better, make an archon faster out of 2 temps getting attacked by mutas or whatever. The most frustrating factor about P is that you can lose 2 units and the whole 10 minutes before didn't matter shit. Tell me, do you care if you lose 2 lurkers as Zerg? PvZ simply forgives less "small" control mistakes than ZvP on high level, believe it or not. Yes, macro is easier as Protoss thus control should be easier for us as well cause we got more time for it. But it isn't, and a good Zerg is able to (imagine that!) even macro proper meanwhile he's attacking. Means the uh so natural advantage of Protoss - being the macro, becomes meaningless at one point since everyone has got it.
Btw to me it seems you got a little butt-raped by Protoss too often, because even though you don't really wrote much its more than obviously sticking out between your lines that you're like "oh protoss can't be in a disadvantage, I'd suck so badly if so..." Seriously, go practice some more ZvP maybe soon you won't find ZvP that hard anymore?
Wow what a wall of condescending text. Screw you dick, I dont give a crap if youre the next big protoss foreigner. You dont come here and whine about imbalance and then act as an overreacting douche just because you think your skill justifies it.
On June 24 2009 12:53 Cloud wrote: Wow what a wall of condescending text. Screw you dick, I dont give a crap if youre the next big protoss foreigner. You dont come here and whine about imbalance and then act as an overreacting douche just because you think your skill justifies it.
dude seriously get real you insulted him and then he responded.
Maybe don't insult people first and they won't treat you like you are retarded.
This thread makes me wonder if zvz has ever evolved. I remember that even before bw it was already exactly like today. So was it during early bw. I hear tasteless saying some people used hydras not so long ago, but I wasn't following pro scene during that time.
On June 24 2009 20:21 VIB wrote: This thread makes me wonder if zvz has ever evolved. I remember that even before bw it was already exactly like today. So was it during early bw. I hear tasteless saying some people used hydras not so long ago, but I wasn't following pro scene during that time.
Has zvz ever evolved?
Ever since JD has came on the scene, zvz has evolved a lot.
Cloud please change your name to Clown, fits you more. YOU were the one who tried to troll me and yea as I assumed my arguments are just way too much for you. You got NOTHING to answer except some other "oh I need to get out of this shit without using any argument" troll stuff. Personally I won't talk to you any more, because you have no fucking clue what I talk about anyway. Next big foreigner? Learn to fucking read PLEASE.
Doesn't mean I'm perfect or special or anything, I just played waaaay more PvZ on high level than most other persons and to be honest I'm quite bad for how much I have played in my life.
What does this tell you? Done with you moron. Is there an ignore list somewhere?
On June 24 2009 20:21 VIB wrote: This thread makes me wonder if zvz has ever evolved. I remember that even before bw it was already exactly like today. So was it during early bw. I hear tasteless saying some people used hydras not so long ago, but I wasn't following pro scene during that time.
Has zvz ever evolved?
ZvZ has changed TONS in the past year. Old ZvZ builds were revived and a lot of opening variations in opening builds have come out, and nowadays the whole 9pool < 12pool < 12hatch thing isn't as applicable. In example, 12pool is often accepted as perhaps the worst build to use on Medusa, as even 9pool and overpool builds can take advantage of the faster lingspeed and just outright kill the 12pool player, particularly if the 12pool player went 12pool expand. Even though the old traditional theory says 12pool > 9pool, 9pool and overpool often dominate 12pool, and one of the casters, I think nal_ra(?), once said that 12pool is just a bad build in ZvZ today.
This must've taken at least a few minutes to translate^^ Great job on the translation. Very informative. Its good to hear talks about SC from the Koreans' point of view.
Reading everything I think I have to agree a bit more with Infernal though. "Mistakes" as a protoss in pvz aren't always obvious especially since zerg can tech switch so fast and have map control.
But what do I know.
Also, Bisu currently has the highest ELO in all matchups compared to other toss players. 50 pts above second place vT (JangBi), 89 pts above second place vZ (Much), 102 pts above second place vP (Kal). Pretty sick.
EPT![[image loading]](http://files.getdropbox.com/u/4422/TL/translations.PNG)
