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On June 24 2009 07:54 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2009 06:58 Cloud wrote:On June 23 2009 23:47 iNfeRnaL wrote:
... Nice, i see there are media players outside the usa. Are you retarded or stupid? Check TLPD and see how far away EVERY Protoss is from his OWN elo peak in PvZ, look how many games Protoss are loosing vs Zerg atm, even the dragons loosing to worse gamers. As a poster over me pointed out _MUCH_ is the 2nd best PvZ'er right now... nuff said. You are infact the one using media "arguments", cause you just straight up ignored something that was said about your race, obviously being fucking biased and still you had NO chance to even fight my arguments with anything viable. Go troll somebody else without even having a clue about the match up from Protoss' point of view. I also never said its "Z>>>>>>>>>>>>P" I said "it slightly favors Zerg atm" - SLIGHTY, ATM - do you know what that means? PvZ is even my favorite match up because its so dynamic and requires a lot of micro, but I play ZvP too so I understand both sides, and its not easy for either side. Go still believe about the fact that Protoss is just 1a2a3a naive Zerg. You wouldn't believe how badly you would get raped by any decent Zerg if you'd try to use Protoss. End of argument with you cause you ain't got what it takes to argue after all as it seems. Have a nice day. Edit: And I didn't even offend stryker, his job was great - he translated nicely, maybe I should have pointed that out more clearly in my first reply, I do in fact disagree with the AUTHORS statement that P=Z atm, not with Strykers.
You scream at protoss not being able to win, then you say its just 'slightly in the favor of zerg'?
And most of your arguments not counting your progaming stats, are just bitching that its too hard to keep up with 'zergs that got a clue', i mean whatever, its not like you are ever going to concede with such devastating logic, so im not gonna bother talking about how hard zvp is from the zergs side.
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P.S Awesome read thank you! I read it yesterday and forgot to drop a thank you!!
Thanks! I read it and I knew I had to share it. In terms of stats, ZvP is very close to balanced now, with maps playing a much bigger role than the old days of ZvP imbalance. I looked through the Hot Maps list on TLPD and the stats are just about even, though I didn't see how many wins were due to Bisu.
Kim Yeon Woo has a bunch of other articles that are worth reading, and I might get to translating them too. He has this particular one on determining racial superiority via statistics, looking at the performance of top 1-8 players in each race vs. the top 9-16, and so on. Pretty damn long article though.
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On June 24 2009 09:52 StRyKeR wrote:Show nested quote +P.S Awesome read thank you! I read it yesterday and forgot to drop a thank you!! Thanks! I read it and I knew I had to share it. In terms of stats, ZvP is very close to balanced now, with maps playing a much bigger role than the old days of ZvP imbalance. I looked through the Hot Maps list on TLPD and the stats are just about even, though I didn't see how many wins were due to Bisu. Kim Yeon Woo has a bunch of other articles that are worth reading, and I might get to translating them too. He has this particular one on determining racial superiority via statistics, looking at the performance of top 1-8 players in each race vs. the top 9-16, and so on. Pretty damn long article though.
Thank you for translating this, very interesting thread. It would be awesome if you could do more.
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Fascinating stuff, read it twice.
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Nice Read.
Also when people make 1a2a3a jokes, they are referring to low level (D and C ranks) players rather than the pro level.
But yes, currently it seems Zerg has a good advantage over Protoss from watching the recent games. (I personally think the T>>Z balance is currently worse though).
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On June 24 2009 09:39 Cloud wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2009 07:54 iNfeRnaL wrote:On June 24 2009 06:58 Cloud wrote:On June 23 2009 23:47 iNfeRnaL wrote:
... Nice, i see there are media players outside the usa. Are you retarded or stupid? Check TLPD and see how far away EVERY Protoss is from his OWN elo peak in PvZ, look how many games Protoss are loosing vs Zerg atm, even the dragons loosing to worse gamers. As a poster over me pointed out _MUCH_ is the 2nd best PvZ'er right now... nuff said. You are infact the one using media "arguments", cause you just straight up ignored something that was said about your race, obviously being fucking biased and still you had NO chance to even fight my arguments with anything viable. Go troll somebody else without even having a clue about the match up from Protoss' point of view. I also never said its "Z>>>>>>>>>>>>P" I said "it slightly favors Zerg atm" - SLIGHTY, ATM - do you know what that means? PvZ is even my favorite match up because its so dynamic and requires a lot of micro, but I play ZvP too so I understand both sides, and its not easy for either side. Go still believe about the fact that Protoss is just 1a2a3a naive Zerg. You wouldn't believe how badly you would get raped by any decent Zerg if you'd try to use Protoss. End of argument with you cause you ain't got what it takes to argue after all as it seems. Have a nice day. Edit: And I didn't even offend stryker, his job was great - he translated nicely, maybe I should have pointed that out more clearly in my first reply, I do in fact disagree with the AUTHORS statement that P=Z atm, not with Strykers. You scream at protoss not being able to win, then you say its just ' slightly in the favor of zerg'? And most of your arguments not counting your progaming stats, are just bitching that its too hard to keep up with 'zergs that got a clue', i mean whatever, its not like you are ever going to concede with such devastating logic, so im not gonna bother talking about how hard zvp is from the zergs side.
Oh, you can actually even post something more than one stupid sentence.
I don't know how hard ZvP is for Z?
Did you read what I fucking wrote? I'm Protoss but ZvP only.
Also I never said winning Zerg is impossible, go try to read what I wrote again.
I wrote if Protoss gets into situation a) he can easily lose to situation b) of Zerg.
What I did not elaborate too much (because I assumed people would take it for granted) is that of course, if Protoss assumes or even scouts lurker/hyd its his own fucking fault if he loses to it. Then he was obviously just outplayed. However, if you guess the right tech its quite balanced given then fact that both players are equal skill range (ALSO mentioned the skill range thing above) - if you don't guess the right thing it might just be a matter of 10-15 seconds for you to adapt - enough for the Zerg to either pick all your templars or set up a contain.
Sure, you can still win after you lost temps or got contained - but not vs an equally skilled Zerg if he doesn't screw something up big time.
I agree with you that the pace of ZvP is insanely fast nowadays, thus its very hard to play ZvP vs a really good P, I don't care if its "harder" or not to play a really good Z, its just much much more about the decisions you make whether you can win a game or not than about macro and micro for P.
Personally I'm a macro player thus macro / micro is probably the part I'm best at which means ZvP naturally comes easier to me being the Zerg part.
I never whined that PvZ is ez win for Z did I?
The Zergs I play with are mostly in ToT, ESC, or equally skilled, so yea, I guess I can bitch about "Zerg's who got a clue" - or would you say the opposite about Ret, Mondragon, Naugrim & co?
Don't go like "ohh but they rape you with ease anyway" because that would be YOU bitching, right?
I know what I'm doing in PvZ and I rape most Zergs as if they're nothing after all.
Doesn't mean I'm perfect or special or anything, I just played waaaay more PvZ on high level than most other persons and to be honest I'm quite bad for how much I have played in my life.
And with my limited talent that I have (not the race Protoss in general), it seems like I cannot seem to deal with these kind of strategies - and oh surprise - look at the trend in Proleague etc - I am not the only one, yes, Movie and Violet are promising but come on. That's 2 exceptions out of like 25 - okay, add Bisu to that and we have 3. I'm sorry.
My logic isn't devastating but rather rationally based on what I experience while gaming myself and what I see going on in the pro scene.
Its just a state of BW right now, and I never said it won't change pretty soon. Personally I have faith in Bisu showing us some way to deal with both OR how to really recognize which of both is coming - however it seems Bisu got his answer - have 400 apm and use the sair to go all around the map while never loosing it.
Did you ever try to fly through a Zerg / Protoss base with overlords or any other air units 10x without loosing it and still keep up with macro, timing, eco?
That would be a good comparison for you.
I know Zerg is hard as well, you have to dodge storms non stop if you play hydra-intense, you need to have nice macro as well meanwhile and yea, even sniping the sair is fucking hard as Zerg - even with scourges - if the P knows what he's doing.
I also know that you can lose a whole game because of 5 drones you lost and P just kept on pressuring you with better eco.
I know what happens if I do ~10 drones too much and miss my timing window against +1 zealot rush.
I know what happens if I don't fucking see a DT sneaking by.
I know what happens if I do mutas and didn't realize that the Toss has been pumping sairs meanwhile.
BUT I also know what was wrong, it was just me not being concentrated enough, doing a sloppy mechanic wise mistake here and there.
The problem I run into as Protoss is that often I seemed to have done everything right, and still lose all my temps to 11 mutas because my 3 sairs get sniped while the attack (not that hard to do as Zerg, is it?) and my 12 goons are unable to protect my temps.
Means pretty much you're doing what you were supposed to do and still get raped.
Now if that isn't frustrating, then I don't know?
Again, situation above requires the Zerg to have really good muta micro - else he shouldn't ever be doing mutas.
I know that being a really good Zerg also requires atleast 200-250 apm, again, I never said Zerg was fucking easy.
I know there is similar situations as Zerg.
I know that I simply need to improve even more in order to storm that little notch better, make an archon faster out of 2 temps getting attacked by mutas or whatever.
The most frustrating factor about P is that you can lose 2 units and the whole 10 minutes before didn't matter shit.
Tell me, do you care if you lose 2 lurkers as Zerg?
PvZ simply forgives less "small" control mistakes than ZvP on high level, believe it or not.
Yes, macro is easier as Protoss thus control should be easier for us as well cause we got more time for it.
But it isn't, and a good Zerg is able to (imagine that!) even macro proper meanwhile he's attacking.
Means the uh so natural advantage of Protoss - being the macro, becomes meaningless at one point since everyone has got it.
Btw to me it seems you got a little butt-raped by Protoss too often, because even though you don't really wrote much its more than obviously sticking out between your lines that you're like "oh protoss can't be in a disadvantage, I'd suck so badly if so..."
Seriously, go practice some more ZvP maybe soon you won't find ZvP that hard anymore?
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Thanks for the translation! Nice read. 
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Wow what a wall of condescending text. Screw you dick, I dont give a crap if youre the next big protoss foreigner. You dont come here and whine about imbalance and then act as an overreacting douche just because you think your skill justifies it.
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neo savior will start a new revolution!
savior i believe!
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I think the next part of the evolution is slow ovie drops into P base jsut as corsair comes out :X
Gosh i hate that
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protosses stop bitching. kthxbai
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Holy shit captivating insight ... Thanks so much!
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On June 24 2009 12:53 Cloud wrote:
Wow what a wall of condescending text. Screw you dick, I dont give a crap if youre the next big protoss foreigner. You dont come here and whine about imbalance and then act as an overreacting douche just because you think your skill justifies it.
dude seriously get real you insulted him and then he responded.
Maybe don't insult people first and they won't treat you like you are retarded.
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This thread makes me wonder if zvz has ever evolved. I remember that even before bw it was already exactly like today. So was it during early bw. I hear tasteless saying some people used hydras not so long ago, but I wasn't following pro scene during that time.
Has zvz ever evolved?
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United States11393 Posts
On June 24 2009 20:21 VIB wrote:
This thread makes me wonder if zvz has ever evolved. I remember that even before bw it was already exactly like today. So was it during early bw. I hear tasteless saying some people used hydras not so long ago, but I wasn't following pro scene during that time.
Has zvz ever evolved?
Ever since JD has came on the scene, zvz has evolved a lot.
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17054 Posts
Tsunami and redcloak tried to advocate hydra/queen as an alternative back in 1.09.
:O
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Cloud please change your name to Clown, fits you more.
YOU were the one who tried to troll me and yea as I assumed my arguments are just way too much for you.
You got NOTHING to answer except some other "oh I need to get out of this shit without using any argument" troll stuff.
Personally I won't talk to you any more, because you have no fucking clue what I talk about anyway.
Next big foreigner? Learn to fucking read PLEASE.
Doesn't mean I'm perfect or special or anything, I just played waaaay more PvZ on high level than most other persons and to be honest I'm quite bad for how much I have played in my life.
What does this tell you?
Done with you moron.
Is there an ignore list somewhere? 
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nicee thread
put to favorites
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EPT
