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Croatia9489 Posts
On February 05 2010 07:12 citi.zen wrote:
What are decent builds as a P in a 3v3 vs. a ZZT team, where zergs go 9 pool into 3 hatch speedlings of some sort, while T goes straight vultures? You need zealots and probably +1vs. zergs, but also ranged dragoons/obo vs the T. You don't really have time for both before the vultures show up.
Assuming that you wont play a 1v3, I'm gonna go ahead and write strategy for the PPP v ZZT (in short of course):
PPP v ZZT:
It's no secret that a PPP is the best team on the BGH and there are few other teams that comes close to it. Unfortunately, ZZT is not one of them. If we take formula from easternPROTOSS' teamplay guide about initiative where Z is worth 3pts, P 2pts and T 1pt, we'd get a final tally of ZZT with 7pts and PPP team with 6pts. So you see, none of the teams actually have big advantage of early map control. With both Z 9pooling they'll have a slight advantage (that 1pt), but P's from opposite team shouldn't play defensive just cause of that. Instead, P's should all go 3 Gateway Zealot/Dragoon build to fend off the initial double rush by Z's. Of course, Z's will both attack the same player as that is their only chance to make this an early 3v2 game, and obviously that P should be on the defensive. The closer ally of P should go help him as soon as they saw who the Z's will rush (scouting with probe in beginning helps while keeping it alive as long as possible). Third P should just keep moving his units around the map, picking off the reinforcements of Z's and, if possible, close the T with a pylon wall (depends on position of T). 3 Gateway Dragoon build is the best in this match-up for P's, while that doesn't necessarily means that all P's actually make Dragoons. One P makes Dragoons, other mixed Zeals/Dragoons and other pure Zeals with Archons (of course with upgraded speed for Zeals). Once you successfully defended from double 9pool rush and actually closed T long enough for Dragoons to arrive, there's actually no way that a 3P team can lose this game at this point.
Disclaimer: Of course there are various ways to play this match-up, and the game could go any way depending on all kinds of variables (positions, skill level, teamplay etc...), but I just gave my honest opinion giving all things are equal.
If anyone of you have any other questions about BGH strategy, go ahead and ask, I'll give my best to answer them.
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The 3 gate dragoon build gets the core at 38 supply, correct? Vultures and mines come a lot earlier than dragoons in this scenario. Zergs can keep you pretty busy with speedlings up to that point.
PS: PPP vs ZZT is exactly what I was wondering about, good pick!
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Croatia9489 Posts
Yes, you're right. I didn't actually think through my last post, but PPP is so much superior than a ZZT team that there are a lot of things you could do and still win.
For example, one P can go 2 Gateway Dragoon build (even 1 Gateway Dragoon build if he has good position) or 2 Gateway Forge and canon in T until goons arrive etc.
Zergs can keep busy 1 P or at most 2 Ps while 3rd will be able to do whatever he want. Also, it's really easy to close in a Zerg on a map like BGH. Depending on the positions, but most of the positions don't require more than 7 zealots to make a zeal wall, thus rendering lings almost useless.
If you want, I can provide you a few PPP v ZZT replays on BGH and you'll see various ways in which they were played and it will definitely give you a better idea why a PPP team almost always wins.
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If you have PPP V ZZT reps with ling/ling/vultures, I would love to see them, thanks!
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Croatia9489 Posts
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I recently started up SC with some buddies again. I tend to play protoss or zerg and my other friend tends to play terran. My third friend plays whatever.
We've been having alot of difficulty in early or mid game. We either have one of us get rushed and killed or we get mutalisk rushed or we just get mid game rushed. Are the builds above still useful for the way BGH is played now?
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BGH is a great place to practice macro and teamwork. without those things, you team is totally screwed. nice thread very informative. didn't realize there was so much more to BGH
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Yeah. It seems like there'd be alot more talk about this map since it seems as if it's the only map East plays.
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This is great because i usually play iccup since BGH fills US west
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Me and some buds are having major issues with BGH. We played PTT vs PPT. Any help on this replay for UNFAZD, Riffraff and TheChiang. Replay is only 9 minutes (we didn't last long).
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=34888
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Ahhh was exspecting a massive thread but its only 7 pages :/
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Croatia9489 Posts
On April 29 2010 14:43 UNFAZD wrote:Me and some buds are having major issues with BGH. We played PTT vs PPT. Any help on this replay for UNFAZD, Riffraff and TheChiang. Replay is only 9 minutes (we didn't last long). http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=34888
Well, the first problem with your game in that replay is not even BGH related. Your both macro and micro are sub par, which is perfectly understandable considering you only started to play the game again. These things only come with practice, so that's the first step you need to take in order to get better. Even though it's not a perfect measurement criteria, your APM should indicate you on how much you're improving. Now you don't need to aim for 200+ APM, but a nice round 100 APM will mean your micro and macro improved, thus leaving you time to focus on other things, BGH related, like build orders and strategy.
That's another thing, build orders. You should read Build Orders guide here and then memorize (or write on a piece of paper) some of the build orders and practice them constantly, until you can do them without even thinking about it. To be good at BGH, build orders are the most important thing for beginners and executing them properly every time is not easy even for some good players, because unlike what most people think, BGH is completely micro oriented map and most of time you need to be focused on your units. That's where hotkeys help and you should start using them for making units while microing your units on the other side of the map.
But this is all general knowledge about SC, which will help you improve on any map, not just BGH. Things that separate BGH from the rest of the maps comes in later stages, and that's the Team Play. easternPROTOSS wrote an excellent guide about Team Play on BGH which is posted here on main page, but I don't think you should focus on it too much now, since those are the things that are meant for players who mastered the mechanics of the game. Maybe you could read it to give you a general idea on how the high level BGH game looks like.
Ok, I don't know what else to say other than keep practicing, BGH is getting more and more enjoyable as you get better and better, trust me.
Also, watching BGH replays will help you no doubt and here you can find a lot of them:
http://www.thebgh.com/component/replays?view=search
If you have any other questions, I'll be glad to help.
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That was quite helpful. I'll get back to you when I come up with more questions. Cheers!
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This is beautiful. We need more posts like this. =D
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 07 2010 23:49 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2010 07:12 citi.zen wrote:
What are decent builds as a P in a 3v3 vs. a ZZT team, where zergs go 9 pool into 3 hatch speedlings of some sort, while T goes straight vultures? You need zealots and probably +1vs. zergs, but also ranged dragoons/obo vs the T. You don't really have time for both before the vultures show up. Assuming that you wont play a 1v3, I'm gonna go ahead and write strategy for the PPP v ZZT (in short of course): PPP v ZZT:It's no secret that a PPP is the best team on the BGH and there are few other teams that comes close to it. Unfortunately, ZZT is not one of them. If we take formula from easternPROTOSS' teamplay guide about initiative where Z is worth 3pts, P 2pts and T 1pt, we'd get a final tally of ZZT with 7pts and PPP team with 6pts. So you see, none of the teams actually have big advantage of early map control. With both Z 9pooling they'll have a slight advantage (that 1pt), but P's from opposite team shouldn't play defensive just cause of that. Instead, P's should all go 3 Gateway Zealot/Dragoon build to fend off the initial double rush by Z's. Of course, Z's will both attack the same player as that is their only chance to make this an early 3v2 game, and obviously that P should be on the defensive. The closer ally of P should go help him as soon as they saw who the Z's will rush (scouting with probe in beginning helps while keeping it alive as long as possible). Third P should just keep moving his units around the map, picking off the reinforcements of Z's and, if possible, close the T with a pylon wall (depends on position of T). 3 Gateway Dragoon build is the best in this match-up for P's, while that doesn't necessarily means that all P's actually make Dragoons. One P makes Dragoons, other mixed Zeals/Dragoons and other pure Zeals with Archons (of course with upgraded speed for Zeals). Once you successfully defended from double 9pool rush and actually closed T long enough for Dragoons to arrive, there's actually no way that a 3P team can lose this game at this point. Disclaimer: Of course there are various ways to play this match-up, and the game could go any way depending on all kinds of variables (positions, skill level, teamplay etc...), but I just gave my honest opinion giving all things are equal. If anyone of you have any other questions about BGH strategy, go ahead and ask, I'll give my best to answer them.
A more general question about this. It seems this assumes that Terran goes factory units. Are MNM when using TZZ team bad? In 2:2, TZvsPP usually uses mechanic, but anyone who plays TZvsPZ knows that MNM is typically more effective. Now, there are no zergs for the Terran to fight, which may lead some to think that MNM are bad vs PPP, but what are the spcific reasons? (I'm assuming most high level BGHers don't use it, or you would've mentioned it) but if TZZ already has the initiative just from dual9p, couldn't that initiative, and thus, map control be further extended by employing MNM?
Sure, some damage will have to be done (but since you have initiative with dual 9p anyway, a dual 9p + 2rax should only be more effective for taking the initiative) if TZZ hopes to make it to mid or even late game, but TZZ's mnm+ling should tear through zealot+goon in the earlier phases of the game (unless the map really favors protoss that much, I haven't gotten a chance to play specific matchups on BGH, so I really don't know).
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The reason you don't use m/m against PPP on BGH is because although firebats and medics are really strong against zealots, you need to reach a critical mass of infantry for it to work, and that's right around the time where the player on the PPP team that teched is getting templars or reavers, which m/m have a really hard time dealing with. At that point you need to transition to mech, and the 3-8 barracks you have rapidly become useless except as fluff mass in flanks.
OR you could open mech and have the initiative with mines and vulture harass then just continue pumping off of the factories you have.
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Is it not possible for the zerg to tech as well? I don't know if getting decent muta counts are impossible, but aren't muta>>reavers and muta>templar. Also, mnm terran can use vessels to emp ht, but I imagine this is harder vs PPP than vs PZ.
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The higher level games are so focused that mass zergling is pretty much your only option. Tech is cute but you usually won't be able to against a good team if you want to keep up with their mass. Eventually you have to transition to something, but because z's tech comes into play so much later than P's it's hard to make the switch. Considering that they can always 3-man zealot rush your team if they don't maintain superior mass and map control, it's pretty dangerous for a zerg to tech. On top of that, mutas in groups of less than 24 won't even phase most toss armies, and to get to the point where you can have that much gas and that much production on BGH means that you mass ling for a long time and suddenly burst into muta production. 2 gas isn't enough to run a muta army that can handle a toss army in a straight fight, and it's so easy to cannon your minerals in BGH that harassment is usually not cost-effective. Really zerg has no big weapons on BGH and that's why they're considered the weakest of the 3 races.
And you're kidding yourself if you think you can get to EMP on BGH against 3 toss as a bio terran.
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EPT
