[G] BGH Megathread! - Page 8

doktorLucifer

United States855 Posts

May 15 2010 11:24 GMT

#141

Yea, well I do not really know, which is why I am asking. Thanks, though.

BGH is interesting to know about, even though the likelihood of me even getting any number of serious or interesting games dwindles with the coming of SC2. `_`

dybydx

Canada1764 Posts

May 15 2010 11:37 GMT

#142

holy gawd never knew there can be so much research into BGH... wonder why isnt the same thing done for LT. imo LT would make an interesting 1v1 money map

rich-

United States144 Posts

May 16 2010 05:09 GMT

#143

ZZT can go mm and play early game rush out. ive seen this happen even high level gaming, but its very delicate it works best if the terran is very close to at least 1 toss to just rally with 99 pools. if only 1 toss goes down its still an even game. PP vs ZZT (bioT) is quite easy to beat. cannon zealot on the choke to buy time then storm is the counter of choice vs mm @ high lvl. reavers usually arent used pvt on bgh in teamgame (mm/tank > reaver harass or zealot/goon/ reaver. reavers are so micro intensive and require so much time to babysit that its typically more apm efficient to opt for storm which is just instantaneous death to blobs of marines.). zerg masses lings because protoss's will just mass zealot and you have to have something to match with. zerg tech is has to be transitioned to but its very position / match up/ game dependent. vs dual/triple toss hydras is ALWAYS the better option, mutas can be effective but they can get blocked out so easily that it makes them more of a coin flip than actually useful units. if mutas gets blocked/ countered its likely gg at the top level. hydras on the other hand are great tank support and are the safest option since toss has to get observer anyway lurker is redundant and already countered since z wont have enough gas to really mass up a nice formation of lurkers that would be useful even vs obs toss.
you have to transition but you follow gameflow timings. when mines are out is the proper tech transition timing unless the other team just really fucks something up and u have no worrys of being attacked. in zzp you would drone when goons take control of the map with a nice mass or you end up just killing the first attack. ZZZ is really pretty imbalanced vs PPP its actually quite easy (3 9 pools is impossible to stop, even bisu would get run over vs some decent team microers), and especially effective if you only picked 1 zerg. then likely the tosses wouldnt cannon as they would if they saw the other team pick triple z.

rich-

United States144 Posts

May 16 2010 05:13 GMT

#144

TTZ and TTT are the worst racial combinations to have. those depend fully on positions whether or not its doable. if a TZ or TT get 11/12 and to a lesser extent 6/7 it can be fair. typically if a TTZ team makes 1 mistake in high lvl bghing its totally over. but a PPZ team vs a TTZ team can make many mistakes and still win easily.

ZERG_RUSSIAN

10417 Posts

May 16 2010 06:35 GMT

#145

I dunno, 11/12 means that they're well defended but can't take any expos, 6/7 means that they have expo spots but honestly 6/7 is about as split as 5/3.

rich-

United States144 Posts

May 16 2010 15:48 GMT

#146

it means they can preform an early game attack without worrying about being separated. 6/7 can be separated much easier than 11/12. 1 rack at the choke and the other person doesnt have to worry about def. a ppz team wouldnt utilize this because they already sit on map control but a dual terran team would certainly take advantage of that.
taking expos is arbitrary to early game. thats not something you would even consider because the gameflow is so up in the air at that point. and if TZ got 11/12 then zerg can go 12 hp 3 hat mutas off of 3 gas which is a fucking REALLY strong build if u have no need to support allies 11/12 opens SO many doors for build order decision because pretty much anything can work. it just depends on the match up and the situation. if you can make an early game attack or gain control of the middle then certainly you can take expos. a top bgh team would be more focused on making a successful attack. and if dual terran doesnt get separated in the start then they have a damn good chance at setting up the middle with tanks, which means they can expo.

ZERG_RUSSIAN

10417 Posts

May 16 2010 22:39 GMT

#147

But obviously 11/12 rax block leaves one person undefended on the map? Toss cannons the 12 choke out of range with backup before moving out to kill the other person. Suddenly it's 3v2 and no matter what your tech is you're fighting a losing battle with no good spots to expo and on top of that you're contained in a tiny choke.

rich-

United States144 Posts

May 16 2010 23:15 GMT

#148

dude you dont have to go marines @ 11/12. cannons would probably be the dumbest thing vs a TZ cause Z would go either mutas or a shit ton of hydras either way cannons would be pretty stupid. TT would go mm/tank or mm/tech, double tech or tech/cliff, again cannons uselss. the best response would just have alot of goons and faster dts with storm maybe a dt drop or something tricky, zerg on ppz team would want faster mutas with matchin econ. the preson outside 11/12 would do a safe build.
trust me man i play koolam / merf / pac and all the other top bghers everyday man. i know the situations and im well versed in bgh game theory. pac and i and 3 others are also admins @ http://www.thebgh.com if you are interested in our replay section.
or if you wanna inny sometime im on east/europe alot@ fexofinadine.

TriniMasta

United States1323 Posts

May 17 2010 02:05 GMT

#149

tank cliffing is a bit unfair due to the positional imbalances.

ZERG_RUSSIAN

10417 Posts

May 17 2010 09:35 GMT

#150

I'm just saying that if you spawn 11/12/x when you're TTZ you'll still have a hard game against any competent PPP team.

On May 17 2010 00:48 rich- wrote:
it means they can preform an early game attack without worrying about being separated. 6/7 can be separated much easier than 11/12. 1 rack at the choke and the other person doesnt have to worry about def.

Oh okay, an early game attack, I see--

and if TZ got 11/12 then zerg can go 12 hp 3 hat mutas off of 3 gas

Wut?

You say something about TZ going 3 hatch muta off of 3 gas but really how is that an early attack? You're sacrificing a teammate for tech that's pretty much hard-countered by anything a protoss does. I understand the timing window but honestly no matter how you look at it 11/12 with a rax block is just asking for your teammate to get killed, especially if they're Z or T. What safe builds are there against 3 man zealot storm? You can counter or save him and if you're 11/12 you can't exactly save him, especially if the zerg is doing something that takes as long as hydras or mutas and the T's not going rines. The cannons aren't stupid if you do it for the timing, rines and lings that try to get out will have a hard time if the cannons get up, and the best case scenario is that you kill them and are left with a small army incapable of saving your third man because it's still at least 2v1.

All I'm saying is that PPP vs TTZ is a really hard matchup, regardless of position.

rich-

United States144 Posts

May 17 2010 23:21 GMT

#151

first of all stop being a nit picker you are obviously taking statements completely out of context. i made 1 example of a build order that you COULD do, then you made it look like i was defining this single build order to "an early game attack." furthermore that build was for just 1 player out of 3.

All I'm saying is that PPP vs TTZ is a really hard matchup, regardless of position.

well im saying that you are completely wrong, because 11/12 makes TTX vs XXX match ups immensely easier, not balanced still but surely massively easier than if you are spread.

ttz requires a slower strategy than PPZ teams. you have to build up to a critical mass before you can move effectively with terran. what i mean by an "early attack," clearly depends on your racial combination. a ZZZ team early game attack would be 3 9 pools @ the 2-3 minute mark. a TTZ team early game attack would obviously not be at the 2-3 minute mark.
furthermore if 11/12 gets cannoned (worst case scenario for the 3rd terran, or zerg [even worse]) you would just focus on staying alive by going mm with range first with wall and probably at least 2 bunkers and scvs ready to repair, this situation is VERY livable; ive seen it done so many times on the top level. if you were zerg you would opt for a 12 pool hatch no gas directly into sunkens, even then you may still die. 3v1 is very difficult but if you work as a team and know when youre about to get 3v1'd you can plan your build accordingly, and if you do live to kill their attack then your team sits on a very nice lead. which means when 11/12 breaks out its likely gg.
now i expect to see your next post grabbing more random sentences from this post then re-arrange them as to distort their meaning then ask "what? youre not making sense."
id also be willing to play your team ttz vs your ppp and see what happens.

ZERG_RUSSIAN

10417 Posts

May 18 2010 08:19 GMT

#152

On May 18 2010 08:21 rich- wrote:

Show nested quote +

well im saying that you are completely wrong

Okay, you win.

rich-

United States144 Posts

May 19 2010 22:37 GMT

#153

again your quote cuts my sentence short, thus changing its meaning. [again] nicely done.

rich-

United States144 Posts

May 20 2010 04:12 GMT

#154

god you are such an idiot. anyway that aside id still like to play your team TTZ (me) Vs PPP (you). ill bet money you would still get smashed, because not only do you have no idea what youre talking about, but likely you suck at executing any type of game theory into actual play.

Pholon

Netherlands6142 Posts

May 20 2010 06:48 GMT

#155

Hey everyone,

Good to see so much action in this topic, BGH being still very much alive. I'd like to take a moment to announce (and you're gonna be the first to hear this

) that we're soon launching a BGH portal on Liquipedia.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Portal:BGH

It's been worked on by one man only and I'm sure he could use some help. There's a lot of stuff already but it's far from done. So, if you'd like to contribute, please feel free to do so! If you need any help come to #liquipedia on Quakenet and ask me or any other mod for help.
Cheers!

iMarshall

Norway190 Posts

May 20 2010 10:57 GMT

#156

I can't believe I haven't seen this thread before, because it's amazing! I'll have to start playing some BGH again now that I've read this.

2Pacalypse-

Croatia9538 Posts

May 20 2010 10:57 GMT

#157

On May 20 2010 15:48 Pholon wrote:
Hey everyone,

Good to see so much action in this topic, BGH being still very much alive. I'd like to take a moment to announce (and you're gonna be the first to hear this

Sorry I haven't replied to your PM yet, but I've been super busy lately.

I'll stop by in IRC soon to have more talk about this ^^
(btw, it looks amazing -.-)