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On December 07 2008 00:48 MiniRoman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 11:19 AttackZerg wrote:
I'm just going to reiterate a few of the points that were correctly made in this thread.
1. archons deal impressive damage AND are meat shields.
2. Vs 5 hat scourge -> hydra/lurker 2 archons + zealots can mow down a huge base with 2-3 lurkers + 1 sunken very easily, this preasure causes alot of zergs to overproduce hydras which makes for slow lair/grades/4th base.
(Edit; this is my theoretical opinion of superior strategy against 5 hat scourge first play, number 2 isn't definative and is based on my study/understanding of ZvP at the b- level and the pro gaming, PvZ trends of recent times.)
3. a Timming archon/zealot moveout is a counter to macro zerg.
4. Archons protect templar and zealots while templar can only do so much.
I think early-midgame archons are very very strong instead of early temps. Just have to say that if Z is fighting an army heavy protoss and their idea of safety is 2-3 lurks and one sunken then obviously they gonna get smacked. Make 3+ sunks and turtle your lurks and toss wont be able to hit you with shit until they've invested in a good goon count.
Just have to say that if Z is fighting an army heavy protoss and their idea of safety is 2-3 lurks and one sunken then obviously they gonna get smacked. Make 3+ sunks and turtle your lurks and toss wont be able to hit you with shit until they've invested in a good goon count.[/QUOTE]
The problem is getting a real amount of static defence on alot of modern maps just isn't that feasable for zerg. They end up with there natural and third and 4th (alot of times) fighting as seperate static fronts, zerg Cannot cost effectively build lurker/sunken/spore at more then 1 base without being dramatically ahead when doing so.
You are right those small numbers of defending units will get smashed, and quickly.
This modern toss style trys to preasure the zerg hard enough for them to crack OR make them overdefend while they take a third base. If zerg doesn't cost effectively defelect protoss zealot/archon they will be pretty far behind. Also spending that money agrees in completely relinquishing map control to protoss. Most professional zergs are using hydra heavy early-midgame and even lategame to avoid losing complete map control early on.
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Norway28558 Posts
its much easier to face a group of zealots+2 templars than zealots + 1 archon
zealots + 2 templars = use 12 speedlings to kill templars then attack with the rest of your force
vs zealots+archon you actually need to have a superior force. pressuring early with +1 speedzealot and 1 archon forces zerg to sacrifice economy more than he would have to if you pressure with 1+ speedzealots and 2 templars, and the goal with this initial outbreak is not to kill the zerg, but to get slight economic advantage which transforms into a bigger advantage later on.
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eri....
You should post more 
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On December 05 2008 16:09 evanthebouncy! wrote:
In small numbers archon superior
In large numbers templar superior.
Try some micro map, see for yourself. Especially you have early +1 which makes archon deadly.
1 and 2: True
3: What about the +1 makes archons more deadly? 30 --> 33 dmg?
Zergling HP 35, Hydra HP 80, Drone HP 40. Are you refering to the splash effect crossing over some golden line or..? Don't really get how the +1 is all too important for the archon as a timing thing.
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On December 05 2008 16:09 evanthebouncy! wrote:
In small numbers archon superior
In large numbers templar superior.
Try some micro map, see for yourself. Especially you have early +1 which makes archon deadly.
I may be wrong, but I'd go the otherway and say archons are better in both situations. Their high damage, splash and ability to absorb far more damage than a dt makes them superior overall.
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Norway28558 Posts
its not archon vs dt its archon vs templar
storm is obviously better the larger a battle is
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On December 09 2008 12:42 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2008 06:09 FabledIntegral wrote:
All you said was you notice that archons are made before templar throw out a storm. I wasn't aware that meant only early-mid game. That can be in any situation, and you even used "archons" as plural, and generally only 1 is made, possibly two, but you just used the plural form. What was I supposed to assume...
I say give me a break^ I just started posting on TL. For someone with 6 posts, you are doing a great job. Trying to help people is awesome. I think he took it as an insult that you explained the lategame pvz,which is the 1a2a3a4a mode. Which is stupid..... If someone doesn't understand PvZ strategy and unit choices on a primative early-midgame level I should think they would be more gracious for any advice that is given to them. Welcome to tl.net where even the noobies who don't know shit act like assholes .
I'm actually around a C to C+ toss. I just couldn't figure out this concept because it's a different style than what I usually play. to vouche on that ask jonoman92  He's one of my managers.
But anyways didn't know my initial post was so misguided to late game considering most referred to it as the mid game sorry bout the confusion.
Bisu's style is something I would like to intergrate into my own. Seeing the recent influx of archons being used vs a hydra build is something new to me.
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On December 10 2008 20:19 Aurious wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2008 12:42 AttackZerg wrote:On December 09 2008 06:09 FabledIntegral wrote:
All you said was you notice that archons are made before templar throw out a storm. I wasn't aware that meant only early-mid game. That can be in any situation, and you even used "archons" as plural, and generally only 1 is made, possibly two, but you just used the plural form. What was I supposed to assume...
I say give me a break^ I just started posting on TL. For someone with 6 posts, you are doing a great job. Trying to help people is awesome. I think he took it as an insult that you explained the lategame pvz,which is the 1a2a3a4a mode. Which is stupid..... If someone doesn't understand PvZ strategy and unit choices on a primative early-midgame level I should think they would be more gracious for any advice that is given to them. Welcome to tl.net where even the noobies who don't know shit act like assholes . I'm actually around a C to C+ toss. I just couldn't figure out this concept because it's a different style than what I usually play. to vouche on that ask jonoman92 He's one of my managers. But anyways didn't know my initial post was so misguided to late game considering most referred to it as the mid game sorry bout the confusion. Bisu's style is something I would like to intergrate into my own. Seeing the recent influx of archons being used vs a hydra build is something new to me.
I'm sorry but I haven't met any C+ protoss who couldn't grasp the power of archons.... and couldn't watch 1 vod or replay and understand the dynamics of why and why not....
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Sometimes a person just can't grasp it with a tad bit of help. Mostly I personally haven't seen this build and was wanting more information to it.
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On December 11 2008 09:42 Aurious wrote:
Sometimes a person just can't grasp it with a tad bit of help. Mostly I personally haven't seen this build and was wanting more information to it.
I was referring to the fact that a player of C+ caliber would be able to grasp it easily.
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On December 05 2008 05:38 VorcePA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 04:55 Final_Judicator wrote:
To point a few things out:
1. Archons are NOT meatshields by any means, they are damage dealers. Yes, they have 350 shield points, but still, the plasma shield does not have any basic armor and takes 100% damage of everything. The amazing thing about archons is their damage output. A full-upgraded 39 damage, combined with an extremly high attack speed, is no joke. Zealots are the actual meatshields, please remember this. It's kind of a yes and no. 350 shields, despite taking full damage from everything under the sun, is still 350 hitpoints. If you were to take the damage reduction + armor upgrade from a zealot, how much hit points would they have compared to an archon? The downside where you don't really want to use archons as meatshields is, obviously, the fact that they cost 300 gas each. That's almost an arbiter right there.
yes because you would much rather have an arbiter in pvz
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On December 05 2008 04:43 LastWish wrote:
It's pretty simple.
Basic Logic :
1 zealot vs 2 hydras = zealot most probably wins
10 zealots vs 20 hydras = hydras most probably win
One group of hydras - can dodge storms pretty easily and snipe templars
One archon backed by zealots can increase potential dramatically because A-move hydras attack zealots and archon range allows attack from behind.
Concusion is small battles -> archons
Large battles -> templars + storm
zealot does not beat beat hydra in a 1v2 situation.
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After testing the build a little I'm a little confused on the gas timings. The first one is normal but around what time do I make the second?
I'm thinking around the time of the citadel being made because getting gas at core seems to be too much gas and will slow the build down a substantually timing wise.
It seems quite difficult to stop for a zerg because either way it puts LOTS of pressure wasting drones/timing windows.
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On December 13 2008 12:48 Aurious wrote:
After testing the build a little I'm a little confused on the gas timings. The first one is normal but around what time do I make the second?
I'm thinking around the time of the citadel being made because getting gas at core seems to be too much gas and will slow the build down a substantually timing wise.
It seems quite difficult to stop for a zerg because either way it puts LOTS of pressure wasting drones/timing windows.
If your going straight for archon/zealot opening rather then a +1 zealotspeed -> archon Gas after you start citedal is fine but I think if you open +1 -speed first its after adding 4 gates. My knowledge of that part is based off of what I see with my overlords so I could be off.
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That sounds about right which do you think is the stronger build overall. I find adding the +1 after the citadel doesn't go for the "perfect" gas timing on the archon I seemed to be ~100 gas short. Obviously I am doing something wrong would the first gas have to come before the gateway to afford Stargate, Citadel, Sair, +1wep, zeal speed, Archives, 2 templar.
The gas before the gateway would provide ample gas but what would the timing on the first zealot be like?
Can be kinda hard to judge overall.
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On December 10 2008 20:19 Aurious wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2008 12:42 AttackZerg wrote:On December 09 2008 06:09 FabledIntegral wrote:
All you said was you notice that archons are made before templar throw out a storm. I wasn't aware that meant only early-mid game. That can be in any situation, and you even used "archons" as plural, and generally only 1 is made, possibly two, but you just used the plural form. What was I supposed to assume...
I say give me a break^ I just started posting on TL. For someone with 6 posts, you are doing a great job. Trying to help people is awesome. I think he took it as an insult that you explained the lategame pvz,which is the 1a2a3a4a mode. Which is stupid..... If someone doesn't understand PvZ strategy and unit choices on a primative early-midgame level I should think they would be more gracious for any advice that is given to them. Welcome to tl.net where even the noobies who don't know shit act like assholes . I'm actually around a C to C+ toss. I just couldn't figure out this concept because it's a different style than what I usually play. to vouche on that ask jonoman92 He's one of my managers. But anyways didn't know my initial post was so misguided to late game considering most referred to it as the mid game sorry bout the confusion. Bisu's style is something I would like to intergrate into my own. Seeing the recent influx of archons being used vs a hydra build is something new to me.
Aurious speaks the truth, and he is certainly no nub! He beats me in PvP sometimes... although that really isn't so hard to do.
IF I know the Z isn't going mutas I prefer leaving my first 2 ht unmorphed and making an archon with the 2nd two. That was I can move out with 2 hts with plenty of energy, possibly even enough for 2 storms each, a large groups of zeal, and the archon to pressure the Z and to secure a 2nd expo.
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EPT
