|
Now I am by no means a bad Protoss nor am I a great Protoss. But lately I find myself watching a lot of PvZ and notice Archons more frequently before the Templar throw out a storm. Bisu does this quite frequently, but why?
Now I realize that in the game vs yarnc recently that he uses a goon/templar/archon build closer to the end and it worked quite well. Many call this the NonY build but meh. Goons>Hydras(with support) Archons>lings Goons>Lurks. Okay so we got that down.
What i'm trying to figure out is WHY he made the archons instead of adding a few zeals throw the storms and make the Archons than.
Possible Reason #1. So far ahead doesn't matter
Possible Reason #2. He knew zerglings were on the way but storm eats them like cake anyways. Instead of Zeals he wanted a bigger meatshield?
This just baffles my mind. I can think of quite a few reasons why just not one that I think is the most logical because of their cost. Any thoughts?
|
Calgary25980 Posts
Please name your thread properly.
|
It was more on Archons I'm still thinking of more to add and wanted a discussion on Archons in general... wait I didn't clarify that did i sorry >_<
|
maybe he was he expecting ultras?
against ultras, i find archons to be more effective than storm
|
You are definitely right about Bisu turning his first temps into archons, usually before even storming. IMO it could be that he wants to pressure the zerg but temps are slow as fuck and take forever to get anywhere AND that archons are very good in the low economy of the beginning-midgame.
|
I use archons against melee units, and storms against ranged units, especially when I have zealots.
If you use storms against melee units, you're likely to storm your own units, while archon splash damage doesn't hurt friendly units. Also, using archons means less hassle than storming, and they're more difficult to dodge than storms (think archons vs mutalisks).
On the other hand, archons suck against ranged units, like hydralisks or lurkers. In those cases, storms fare obviously better.
|
sometimes you just dont have the time and micro to use up all your storm and then you might storm your own units. in those cases you can make archons and still be cost effective. leave say 1 or 2 templars for storm would be a good idea. anyway thats how i see it cuz a lot of games i cant use up my storms properly and then when i morph archons they get sniped while morphing.
|
It's pretty simple.
Basic Logic :
1 zealot vs 2 hydras = zealot most probably wins
10 zealots vs 20 hydras = hydras most probably win
One group of hydras - can dodge storms pretty easily and snipe templars
One archon backed by zealots can increase potential dramatically because A-move hydras attack zealots and archon range allows attack from behind.
Concusion is small battles -> archons
Large battles -> templars + storm
|
On December 05 2008 03:49 Fontong wrote:
You are definitely right about Bisu turning his first temps into archons, usually before even storming. IMO it could be that he wants to pressure the zerg but temps are slow as fuck and take forever to get anywhere AND that archons are very good in the low economy of the beginning-midgame.
This sounds plausible, archons are quick and give a much better mobility to your early-mid game army.
|
This thread confuses me... But I'll try to be helpful anyway.
There are several reasons to why you'd make archons from your first templars instead of saving the energy.
1. To help protect against muta harass. This has been less common after sair was more popular as opening and because muta micro got better, but archons with first 2 or 4 is a 'safe' way of opening if you don't have scouted his build with sairs.
2. To be aggressive early on. As Fontong mentioned templars are vulnerable in small scale armies without goons for support (because of their slow speed, they are easily sniped by hydras and mutas), archons are actually more helpful in some situations, even against hydras. Archon works as a good support unit to zealots early on. If you start out with templars, you'll usually have to wait a while in your base to grow your energy + goon number + range.
3. In the heat of a battle, you can't always expect to get an archon out just because the templars have already casted their storms. If zerg wins the battle and you're retreating, merging templars will stay behind and die. In smaller scale battles, merging templars are also often focused upon. Even if you are winning and hunting his army the merging archon will be left behind...
4. Sometimes, you don't want to have more than a couple of templars in your army. I often even merge templars with full energy toward lategame because having an army that consist of too many templars will only backfire. Better bring more archons against hive tech.
|
To point a few things out:
1. Archons are NOT meatshields by any means, they are damage dealers. Yes, they have 350 shield points, but still, the plasma shield does not have any basic armor and takes 100% damage of everything. The amazing thing about archons is their damage output. A full-upgraded 39 damage, combined with an extremly high attack speed, is no joke. Zealots are the actual meatshields, please remember this.
2. Taking the high damage output into account, archons are one of the few units that can acutally damage ultralisks. Assuming full upgrades on both sides, a zealot will do a pitiful 10 points of damage against an ultraliks, while an archon will do 33 damage with higher attack speed.
3. A standard goon/zealot army, supported by templars, will be completely obliterated by ultra/ling (or even just masslings if flanked), because neither zealots nor dragoons are really effective against ultralisks and cracklings and storms do not really bother ultralisks. But a combination of zealots (as meatshields) and archons with their high splash damage will easily take care of cracklings and will be able to stand up toe-to-toe with the dreaded ultra/ling army...
4. In small-scale armies, archons tend to be more effective as storms can be dodged and Templars are vulnerable. Archons, however, can be used aggressivle in an early zealot attack.
5. Of course, you would prefer to use the energy for psi storms before merging the archon... but especially if you encounter massive amounts of lings and/or ultralisks, the battle will be over before the archon is even finished... and remember, the archon is meant to deal the damage.
|
On December 05 2008 04:55 Final_Judicator wrote:
To point a few things out:
1. Archons are NOT meatshields by any means, they are damage dealers. Yes, they have 350 shield points, but still, the plasma shield does not have any basic armor and takes 100% damage of everything. The amazing thing about archons is their damage output. A full-upgraded 39 damage, combined with an extremly high attack speed, is no joke. Zealots are the actual meatshields, please remember this.
It's kind of a yes and no. 350 shields, despite taking full damage from everything under the sun, is still 350 hitpoints. If you were to take the damage reduction + armor upgrade from a zealot, how much hit points would they have compared to an archon?
The downside where you don't really want to use archons as meatshields is, obviously, the fact that they cost 300 gas each. That's almost an arbiter right there.
|
On December 05 2008 04:43 LastWish wrote:
It's pretty simple.
Basic Logic :
1 zealot vs 2 hydras = zealot most probably wins
10 zealots vs 20 hydras = hydras most probably win
One group of hydras - can dodge storms pretty easily and snipe templars
One archon backed by zealots can increase potential dramatically because A-move hydras attack zealots and archon range allows attack from behind.
Concusion is small battles -> archons
Large battles -> templars + storm
Hydras are the best archon-counter Zerg has, so they're not the best example.
|
1 archon = 360 hp + shields
8 probes = 320
4 zealots = 640
This doesn't even account for armor and that gas is more valuable than minerals, so no, archons aren't meat shields at all.
|
On December 05 2008 06:05 lololol wrote:
1 archon = 360 hp + shields
8 probes = 320
4 zealots = 640
This doesn't even account for armor and that gas is more valuable than minerals, so no, archons aren't meat shields at all.
I didn't say they were cost effective. But once they're on the battlefield, they can absorb quite a bit of damage (whilst outputting a lot, too). Good zerg players will focus fire an archon, which means that's shots not being taken on your zealots, which are doing the real damage to hydras as they can more effectively get in range of them than archons can.
|
On December 05 2008 06:05 lololol wrote:
1 archon = 360 hp + shields
8 probes = 320
4 zealots = 640
This doesn't even account for armor and that gas is more valuable than minerals, so no, archons aren't meat shields at all.
So this comparison is based on cost rather than supply? I don't play protoss, but I'm pretty sure an archon is 4 supply, so it would look like
1 archon = 360+shield regen
4 probes = 160+shield regen
2 zeals = 320+shield regen
I'd say that, using this comparison (supply rather than cost) zeals are still better imo because they'll have armor to give them more bonus hits.
IMO, vs anything but ultra/ling with many ultras and few lings, storms would be better. Of course you'll want both by that time anyway, but mostly you need archons to deal with ultras, although mass goon works okay too.
Mutas are a special case. They can get owned by storm, but they're also awesome templar snipers. They can get owned by archon hits, but they also can outmaneuver them.
edit: to be clear, the comparison is just an hp/supply comparison. I'm not saying 2 zeals are better than an archon.
|
United States42694 Posts
On December 05 2008 07:22 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 06:05 lololol wrote:
1 archon = 360 hp + shields
8 probes = 320
4 zealots = 640
This doesn't even account for armor and that gas is more valuable than minerals, so no, archons aren't meat shields at all. So this comparison is based on cost rather than supply? I don't play protoss, but I'm pretty sure an archon is 4 supply, so it would look like 1 archon = 360+shield regen 4 probes = 160+shield regen 2 zeals = 320+shield regen I'd say that, using this comparison (supply rather than cost) zeals are still better imo because they'll have armor to give them more bonus hits. IMO, vs anything but ultra/ling with many ultras and few lings, storms would be better. Of course you'll want both by that time anyway, but mostly you need archons to deal with ultras, although mass goon works okay too. Mutas are a special case. They can get owned by storm, but they're also awesome templar snipers. They can get owned by archon hits, but they also can outmaneuver them.
Comparing it by supply is absurd. Cost is the way to compare.
|
Well is early/mid-game cost is usually the limiting factor but once it gets to late game often times P can get in trouble in PvZ (and all match-ups) when they are maxed with too many zealots. Zealots take up a lot of supply and when compared to other, more gas heavy units they are not worth having too many of. I think any protoss player would of course agree that when supply is getting near to being capped you want to limit your zeal production and fill up your supply with reaver/archon/sair/arb type units
|
If you get an early archon it can effectively make you invulnerable to mutalisks, that way you don't have to waste a ton of minerals getting 3/4 cannons at your main and nat's mineral line. Maybe that's not the reason he's doing it, but I like doing that personally since usually the zerg gets the spire for scourge anyways, so they can switch tech and get a couple mutalisks at any point, and it helps to have a unit you can defend with rather than being fucked when your minerals have 1/no cannons and you end up not mining for a while until you get an archon.
|
As a Z player, it seems archons are better than templars in aspects:
vs ultras or lings storms are a lot riskier than archons (can be dodged, hurt your own units)
templars can be sniped somewhat easily
t button is very far away on the keyboard!
|
United States17042 Posts
On December 05 2008 07:56 Ideas wrote:
As a Z player, it seems archons are better than templars in aspects:
vs ultras or lings storms are a lot riskier than archons (can be dodged, hurt your own units)
templars can be sniped somewhat easily
t button is very far away on the keyboard!
the last point isn't quite valid, but what helps it is that you need to micro ht by actually psistorming to make them effective- archons you can move around in a control group with zeals to keep them effective, and you arn't forced to have as much multitask.
+ Show Spoiler +
you can 1a2a3a4a with archons/zeal, you cannot with ht, especially when you need the apm/multitask elsewhere.
|
the psi storm upgrade is 200 minerals AND gas, and takes a while to upgrade. morphing your 1st few templars is meant to do a zealot/archon timing attack without waiting for both energy for temps and the storm upgrade.
you can almost get another archon and another zealot for the price of psi storm.
|
On December 05 2008 07:56 Ideas wrote:
t button is very far away on the keyboard!
build pylon must be hell for you
|
lol at xiaofan  ))))
build probe and spaming it at the beginning is even harder
|
Tasteless has been pointing out early archons as well in Gom Classic.
I guess that makes sense, though. Until you get energy upgrade, you need to wait for templar to gain enough energy to storm, and in earlier low-econ situations, the zerg will be more mindful of spreading his fewer units if a templar is present; not to mention sniping that templar would become a priority. And then there's also the speed factor that people have mentioned. I think it's easier to be aggressive earlier on, to really make that +1 speedlot timing attack effective...at least that's how it's been used at the top levels.
As for defending against mutas, an archon alone won't do it...you'd still need to get a couple cannons in the mineral lines. I think it's definitely advisable to get archons if your build either skips stargate or you don't intend on getting more than one or two, though.
I dunno. As a zerg, no matter what tech I have, seeing an archon mixed into an army is scary. T_T
On December 05 2008 08:45 xiaofan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 07:56 Ideas wrote:
t button is very far away on the keyboard!
build pylon must be hell for you
HAHAHAHA win.
|
On December 05 2008 09:05 andrey3332 wrote:lol at xiaofan )))) build probe and spaming it at the beginning is even harder
I dont really think you got it  the build is meant as the hotkey to build
|
as a zerg player I can tell you that the early army with an archon or two is much more threatening than one with a 2-4 templar.
|
Ya, If you have enough judgement and game sense, you can usually overpower lower zerg players with 1-2 archons+5-8 zealots. They soak up alot of inital fire....There almost like a free shield that does a shitload of damage
|
I'm just going to reiterate a few of the points that were correctly made in this thread.
1. archons deal impressive damage AND are meat shields.
2. Vs 5 hat scourge -> hydra/lurker 2 archons + zealots can mow down a huge base with 2-3 lurkers + 1 sunken very easily, this preasure causes alot of zergs to overproduce hydras which makes for slow lair/grades/4th base.
(Edit; this is my theoretical opinion of superior strategy against 5 hat scourge first play, number 2 isn't definative and is based on my study/understanding of ZvP at the b- level and the pro gaming, PvZ trends of recent times.)
3. a Timming archon/zealot moveout is a counter to macro zerg.
4. Archons protect templar and zealots while templar can only do so much.
I think early-midgame archons are very very strong instead of early temps.
|
On December 05 2008 11:01 Racenilatr wrote:They soak up alot of inital fire....There almost like a free shield that does a shitload of damage
Yeah, I guess 100 minerals and 300 gas is almost like free. -.-a
|
Well, archons are meat shields more often in PvT when you merge them after storming. Archons in PvT aren't nearly as useful as in PvZ...Vultures do full damage to the shields, tanks eat them up...so basically they don't do much as far as attack in PvT. Unless of course for harassment, they're ok. I prefer temp though.
Bonus about archons in PvT: you can float over mines.
Early archons make the zerg spend money on hydras or sunkens, since lings will hardly be a defense. Beware of running into a sunken line, especially if they target your archon, since sunkens deal explosive damage...40 damage to shields is not something you want happening.
|
United States42694 Posts
On December 05 2008 11:19 AttackZerg wrote:
I'm just going to reiterate a few of the points that were correctly made in this thread.
1. archons deal impressive damage AND are meat shields.
2. Vs 5 hat scourge -> hydra/lurker 2 archons + zealots can mow down a huge base with 2-3 lurkers + 1 sunken very easily, this preasure causes alot of zergs to overproduce hydras which makes for slow lair/grades/4th base.
3. a Timming archon/zealot moveout is a counter to macro zerg.
4. Archons protect templar and zealots while templar can only do so much.
I think early-midgame archons are very very strong instead of early temps.
What kind of sair play are we looking at? Because if we're skipping sair or only making 1 to scout then can't the Z just play havoc on your min line with 8 or so muta? Sair into darksair into zeestorm is a far more natural transition than sair into zeechon imo. Chons do not counter muta harass, at least not above C or so. And providing he doesn't actually engage your zeechon army with his muta (why would he? he's not making more than the 8 to harass and they're on your min line) there's not so much you can do.
I don't know, I'm just having trouble seeing the game flow where zeechon overpowers hydra in a situation where zeestorm wouldn't. That said, I certainly don't doubt your experience so if you have reps I'd certainly like to see them. Early-midgame chons aren't really my style.
Your other points are correct.
|
On December 05 2008 07:23 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 07:22 Dromar wrote:On December 05 2008 06:05 lololol wrote:
1 archon = 360 hp + shields
8 probes = 320
4 zealots = 640
This doesn't even account for armor and that gas is more valuable than minerals, so no, archons aren't meat shields at all. So this comparison is based on cost rather than supply? I don't play protoss, but I'm pretty sure an archon is 4 supply, so it would look like 1 archon = 360+shield regen 4 probes = 160+shield regen 2 zeals = 320+shield regen I'd say that, using this comparison (supply rather than cost) zeals are still better imo because they'll have armor to give them more bonus hits. IMO, vs anything but ultra/ling with many ultras and few lings, storms would be better. Of course you'll want both by that time anyway, but mostly you need archons to deal with ultras, although mass goon works okay too. Mutas are a special case. They can get owned by storm, but they're also awesome templar snipers. They can get owned by archon hits, but they also can outmaneuver them. Comparing it by supply is absurd. Cost is the way to compare.
This also ignores how archons do *30* damage, and 39 with upgrades! Then they have splash, move fairly quickly, are almost completely *un*affected by plague, and can attack both air and ground. They rape lings better than anything, and ultras get eaten by them with the massive damage and fast attack rate. Bottom line, archons own, and are often worth it.
With the templar, you can't always get 20 storms off. Normally, you'll get around 5-6. Thus, 3-4 templar is fine, while the rest go to archons. Remember, a huge army of archons is almost unstoppable.
|
On December 05 2008 13:06 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 11:19 AttackZerg wrote:
I'm just going to reiterate a few of the points that were correctly made in this thread.
1. archons deal impressive damage AND are meat shields.
2. Vs 5 hat scourge -> hydra/lurker 2 archons + zealots can mow down a huge base with 2-3 lurkers + 1 sunken very easily, this preasure causes alot of zergs to overproduce hydras which makes for slow lair/grades/4th base.
3. a Timming archon/zealot moveout is a counter to macro zerg.
4. Archons protect templar and zealots while templar can only do so much.
I think early-midgame archons are very very strong instead of early temps. What kind of sair play are we looking at? Because if we're skipping sair or only making 1 to scout then can't the Z just play havoc on your min line with 8 or so muta? Sair into darksair into zeestorm is a far more natural transition than sair into zeechon imo. Chons do not counter muta harass, at least not above C or so. And providing he doesn't actually engage your zeechon army with his muta (why would he? he's not making more than the 8 to harass and they're on your min line) there's not so much you can do. I don't know, I'm just having trouble seeing the game flow where zeechon overpowers hydra in a situation where zeestorm wouldn't. That said, I certainly don't doubt your experience so if you have reps I'd certainly like to see them. Early-midgame chons aren't really my style. Your other points are correct.
The power of a chon/zealot rush is best demonstrated by bisu in recents games vs Devil on gomtv.net.
Also vs Calm (same tournament) and recently vs yellow. They are moving out with the chons after basic muta harrass has ended, about the same time zerg will get lurkers in a standard 5 hat/3base game.
Also Jaedong vs Sango, although the DTs in his main are what screwed him, his army was completely out of position because of a highly aggressive zealot-chon army. Which is why I think its stronger then protoss 'tech' play, one wrong move and zerg is looking at 2base vs 2 base zvp. I should have added in my orginal statement that is was my theoretical opinion, which I will go back and edit in.
By reps, I'm assuming you mean reps of chon/lot raping my 8-10 muta- 5 hat play , or similar variations, then I can gladly ablige, oystein rapes me with it plenty  . I rather you watch the pro vods of better zergs dying to it thou =).
New trends of PvZ seem to say, fuck your muta harrass because my huge ground army is going to move out again and again and again and you won't even get to do much. Personally, I've stopped going muta before lurker against 5 gate play, the rapes are to painfull.
|
(edit, I was trying to edit and hit quote .. woops)
|
Braavos36375 Posts
On December 05 2008 08:12 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:
the psi storm upgrade is 200 minerals AND gas, and takes a while to upgrade. morphing your 1st few templars is meant to do a zealot/archon timing attack without waiting for both energy for temps and the storm upgrade.
you can almost get another archon and another zealot for the price of psi storm.
the cost of psi storm is not considered here at all, it's basically always upgraded if you get an archives. delaying psi storm for a 200m/200g midgame boost in units is just not worth it.
|
In small numbers archon superior
In large numbers templar superior.
Try some micro map, see for yourself. Especially you have early +1 which makes archon deadly.
|
On December 05 2008 15:48 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 08:12 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:
the psi storm upgrade is 200 minerals AND gas, and takes a while to upgrade. morphing your 1st few templars is meant to do a zealot/archon timing attack without waiting for both energy for temps and the storm upgrade.
you can almost get another archon and another zealot for the price of psi storm. the cost of psi storm is not considered here at all, it's basically always upgraded if you get an archives. delaying psi storm for a 200m/200g midgame boost in units is just not worth it.
For the archon/zealot timming attack that is popular right now, they aren't waiting for storm, or even bringing templars until there second or even third waveof units. If you don't plan on using storm right away there is no need to auto upgrade if first and delay your attack ... right?
Its like adding a machine shop to both factorys in a TvP 2 fact tank/vulture push just because you know you'll need to produce tanks from 2 facts at some point ..... Is it worth losing your timming push?
|
Ah, so it's a timing attack I have been watching lately. I see now. thanks
|
On December 05 2008 17:29 Aurious wrote:
Ah, so it's a timing attack I have been watching lately. I see now. thanks
The timming various from game to game, its adaptive, but the basic idea is 2-3 archons + speedlots vs zerg natural /third base while you take a third with cannons. I have yet to see anybody execute is like bisu thou. The man is a pvz god.
|
Well, the number of zeals will vary.
But things will be like xZeals, 2-3Archons, +1weapon, Zeal speed correct?
Also if you can't do damage used to pressure the zerg into wasting larvae. Am I correct in this analyse?
|
United States47024 Posts
On December 05 2008 13:06 Archaic wrote:
This also ignores how archons do *30* damage, and 39 with upgrades! Then they have splash, move fairly quickly, are almost completely *un*affected by plague, and can attack both air and ground. They rape lings better than anything, and ultras get eaten by them with the massive damage and fast attack rate. Bottom line, archons own, and are often worth it.
With the templar, you can't always get 20 storms off. Normally, you'll get around 5-6. Thus, 3-4 templar is fine, while the rest go to archons. Remember, a huge army of archons is almost unstoppable.
Did you read what the comparison was about? It was about the fact that zealots are more cost-effective as meat shields. In terms of damage output, Archons are obviously superior.
|
Yeah Attackzerg has it, archons are just needed for the mid-game push every protoss is doing. Protect zealots from possible mutas, more mobile than templars, high health, high damage, less fragile than templars, storm is tougher to hit retreating units, archons can actually damage buildings...
First time I saw it was after the Bisu/July game, where July went mutas into a hydra break. After that most zergs went for the quick mutas first, which forced protoss to make 2+ archons for defense. I guess someone figured out that they could use the archons for a really powerful push against any typical zerg build.
|
i think this new archon trend started because tosses are afraid of the late-mutas. (8-10 mutas come out and snipe all your templars in 10 sec)
Archons are very vulnerable to hydras, dragoons don't own hydras, but dragoon+ anythinbutarchons are very good
|
On December 05 2008 11:19 AttackZerg wrote:
I'm just going to reiterate a few of the points that were correctly made in this thread.
1. archons deal impressive damage AND are meat shields.
2. Vs 5 hat scourge -> hydra/lurker 2 archons + zealots can mow down a huge base with 2-3 lurkers + 1 sunken very easily, this preasure causes alot of zergs to overproduce hydras which makes for slow lair/grades/4th base.
(Edit; this is my theoretical opinion of superior strategy against 5 hat scourge first play, number 2 isn't definative and is based on my study/understanding of ZvP at the b- level and the pro gaming, PvZ trends of recent times.)
3. a Timming archon/zealot moveout is a counter to macro zerg.
4. Archons protect templar and zealots while templar can only do so much.
I think early-midgame archons are very very strong instead of early temps.
Just have to say that if Z is fighting an army heavy protoss and their idea of safety is 2-3 lurks and one sunken then obviously they gonna get smacked. Make 3+ sunks and turtle your lurks and toss wont be able to hit you with shit until they've invested in a good goon count.
|
On December 05 2008 16:09 evanthebouncy! wrote:
In small numbers archon superior
In large numbers templar superior.
Try some micro map, see for yourself. Especially you have early +1 which makes archon deadly.
No.
|
It's ALL about timing. A group of speedzeals and an archon are much more mobile than 2 templars and a group of speedzeals, and the first archon morphs just in time to hit one of the zerg's bases really hard.
One archon and 12 speedzeals absolutely rape sunkens, lings, and equal numbers of hydras.
|
Its really simple if you plan to be defensive you leave them as ht with storm if you plan to be offensive you make 1-2 archons with 10-12 zeals and attack.
You cant attack with 12 zeals and 2 hts because if the zerg goes hidra or muta he can snipe your hts while your storms do little dmg or no dmg at all and therefore losing the game .
|
Ok guys, if you have nothing new to add please quit posting the exact same things as other people already have. There is no reason to bump a topic repeatedly with no good input.
|
One thing that has not been mentioned yet is just how good zerg's have gotten at dodging storms.
Especially in Bisu's typical build nowadays - when the Z has only 12-24 hydras it's very unlikely that his storms will do very much damage.
This, in addition to the other things posted, explains the quick archon rather than storm.
|
On December 05 2008 02:58 Aurious wrote:
Now I am by no means a bad Protoss nor am I a great Protoss. But lately I find myself watching a lot of PvZ and notice Archons more frequently before the Templar throw out a storm. Bisu does this quite frequently, but why?
Now I realize that in the game vs yarnc recently that he uses a goon/templar/archon build closer to the end and it worked quite well. Many call this the NonY build but meh. Goons>Hydras(with support) Archons>lings Goons>Lurks. Okay so we got that down.
What i'm trying to figure out is WHY he made the archons instead of adding a few zeals throw the storms and make the Archons than.
Possible Reason #1. So far ahead doesn't matter
Possible Reason #2. He knew zerglings were on the way but storm eats them like cake anyways. Instead of Zeals he wanted a bigger meatshield?
This just baffles my mind. I can think of quite a few reasons why just not one that I think is the most logical because of their cost. Any thoughts?
I don't know about you, but I usually get archons because I'm afraid of muta. 2 archons basically deter all muta
|
It's not just vs mutas as everyone keeps saying. You can't just throw down storms then combine them simply because your zealots are then fighting alone in terms of melee whilst the archons are morphing. Once the archons are done morphing, then they are by themselves, and will get torn apart. You need the archons already morphed when going into battle, I recommend unless they go mass hydra, only keeping 2-3 templar not combined and immediately combining every other high templar you produce into an archon. If the opponent does go mass hydra, then it varies, and archons aren't so great anymore and you'd want to keep the high temp you produce obviously.
Especially vs ultras when it comes to the later games, 3/3 crackings tear apart zeals, but an archon with +3 attack upgrade *one-hits* a 3/3 crackling. That's HUGE. The cracklings start dying before they even can get to your archon/zeal combo, and it nearly forces zerg to get defilers if you can manage to get a decent amount of archons. One game I played on Andro, I was able to cut off all my enemy's gas and he was going mainly ultraling. He could only afford lings at the end of the game, he had already lost but didn't gg and kept playing for a little bit longer. Went into his base with like 5 archons + 6 zealots, and he had 5 hatch pumping out 3/3 cracklings. I looked at my archons and they had 15-20 kills a piece and still had around 100 shields when the archons killed the hatches.
|
On December 08 2008 10:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
It's not just vs mutas as everyone keeps saying. You can't just throw down storms then combine them simply because your zealots are then fighting alone in terms of melee whilst the archons are morphing. Once the archons are done morphing, then they are by themselves, and will get torn apart. You need the archons already morphed when going into battle, I recommend unless they go mass hydra, only keeping 2-3 templar not combined and immediately combining every other high templar you produce into an archon. If the opponent does go mass hydra, then it varies, and archons aren't so great anymore and you'd want to keep the high temp you produce obviously.
Especially vs ultras when it comes to the later games, 3/3 crackings tear apart zeals, but an archon with +3 attack upgrade *one-hits* a 3/3 crackling. That's HUGE. The cracklings start dying before they even can get to your archon/zeal combo, and it nearly forces zerg to get defilers if you can manage to get a decent amount of archons. One game I played on Andro, I was able to cut off all my enemy's gas and he was going mainly ultraling. He could only afford lings at the end of the game, he had already lost but didn't gg and kept playing for a little bit longer. Went into his base with like 5 archons + 6 zealots, and he had 5 hatch pumping out 3/3 cracklings. I looked at my archons and they had 15-20 kills a piece and still had around 100 shields when the archons killed the hatches.
Where did I ask about late game? lol
|
All you said was you notice that archons are made before templar throw out a storm. I wasn't aware that meant only early-mid game. That can be in any situation, and you even used "archons" as plural, and generally only 1 is made, possibly two, but you just used the plural form. What was I supposed to assume...
I say give me a break^ I just started posting on TL.
|
Bisu probably morphs his first few templars into Archons because of two main reasons... Against muta harass archons totally rape mutas esp cuz stacking is popular, and when mutas run into archons they have to re micro and split their mutas apart so the splash doesnt totally pwn. Also you would have to build archons 150 gas, and RESEARCH 200 gas and then wait for mana to storm. it is alot safer to get one or two archons (big dmg) earlier then waiting for research to have a templar or two with mana to storm. Also storm doesnt quite work well against mutas if they are good at positioning their flying units over your workers.
So basically mutalisks can only be countered by cannons and sair's midgame, and sairs have been proving less effective with the pros using scourge so well
|
fabledintegral, you play at conquer club?
|
for the first few archons: it's because at that time, archons do multiple duties (defend muta, attack with speed zeals), and hts only can do 1 (defend against an attack). hts also get sniped by mutas. most people are willing to take some cannon shots to kill a templar.
|
On December 09 2008 06:09 FabledIntegral wrote:
All you said was you notice that archons are made before templar throw out a storm. I wasn't aware that meant only early-mid game. That can be in any situation, and you even used "archons" as plural, and generally only 1 is made, possibly two, but you just used the plural form. What was I supposed to assume...
I say give me a break^ I just started posting on TL.
For someone with 6 posts, you are doing a great job.
Trying to help people is awesome.
I think he took it as an insult that you explained the lategame pvz,which is the 1a2a3a4a mode. Which is stupid..... If someone doesn't understand PvZ strategy and unit choices on a primative early-midgame level I should think they would be more gracious for any advice that is given to them.
Welcome to tl.net where even the noobies who don't know shit act like assholes .
|
On December 06 2008 13:06 Aurious wrote:
Well, the number of zeals will vary.
But things will be like xZeals, 2-3Archons, +1weapon, Zeal speed correct?
Also if you can't do damage used to pressure the zerg into wasting larvae. Am I correct in this analyse?
There are a few different variations that lead to similar early midgame PvZ.
1) You go +1/speed with 4 gates, he goes muta (3hat-4hat or 5 hat)0, you attack/cannon/morph archons while he defends.
2) straight sair/archives 2 gate into dt/sair (2-3 sairs) into 5gate zealot/archon with a few sair around(2-3 unless they died) and a few(1-2) dts denying expos, while taking a third (This only is against 3 hat lair play.
3) you go +1 and see a possible muta/ling 2 hat or 3 hat game (early +1 will be done 2-3 archons/zealots/cannon into defence once you are secured then third expo/push (Trying to beat lurker timming an searching storm while you move out , unless you see earlier hydras)
4)5 hat hydra vs 5 gate +1 zealots +2 - 4 templar, this is a timming attack on a late lair, drone heavy zerg who is on 3 base(before lurkers) after storms are cast and zealots are flooding, morph archons, this is a similar attack as the normal but you are counting on having enough zealots + good enough storms to be able to get them fully morph, in low numbers hydra/ling vs zealot/archon with +1 is hard for zerg and can take long enough for toss to fully secure there third while wrecking havok.
My son is waking up there might be a few situations that zealot to large zealot/archon armies early-midgame but I'm having troubling thinking about them.
By the way my defination of early-midgame to midgame is from like 5:45 to about 9 minutes. These are the times that the fruition of most builds or P and Z is actualized. mutas are normally from 6:50 onward(assuming 3 hat or more play and +1 zealot attacks at the earliest are right around 7 minutes (assuming Fe , I believe this is correct although kwark,oystein,shauni can probably explain the timmings more accuratly that I can.
|
im pretty sure about this but wasn't there a thread that asked a similar question just a couple of month b4? hmm...don't see it anymore....
either way turning ur first ht's into archon is wat pros usually do to avoid muta sniping and/or hydra sniping... in pvp i believe they keep high temps
also for those ppl saying zealots r good as meat shields... it's only vs lings and ultras.. other than that hydras own and lurkers literally melt zealots
|
On December 07 2008 00:48 MiniRoman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 11:19 AttackZerg wrote:
I'm just going to reiterate a few of the points that were correctly made in this thread.
1. archons deal impressive damage AND are meat shields.
2. Vs 5 hat scourge -> hydra/lurker 2 archons + zealots can mow down a huge base with 2-3 lurkers + 1 sunken very easily, this preasure causes alot of zergs to overproduce hydras which makes for slow lair/grades/4th base.
(Edit; this is my theoretical opinion of superior strategy against 5 hat scourge first play, number 2 isn't definative and is based on my study/understanding of ZvP at the b- level and the pro gaming, PvZ trends of recent times.)
3. a Timming archon/zealot moveout is a counter to macro zerg.
4. Archons protect templar and zealots while templar can only do so much.
I think early-midgame archons are very very strong instead of early temps. Just have to say that if Z is fighting an army heavy protoss and their idea of safety is 2-3 lurks and one sunken then obviously they gonna get smacked. Make 3+ sunks and turtle your lurks and toss wont be able to hit you with shit until they've invested in a good goon count.
Just have to say that if Z is fighting an army heavy protoss and their idea of safety is 2-3 lurks and one sunken then obviously they gonna get smacked. Make 3+ sunks and turtle your lurks and toss wont be able to hit you with shit until they've invested in a good goon count.[/QUOTE]
The problem is getting a real amount of static defence on alot of modern maps just isn't that feasable for zerg. They end up with there natural and third and 4th (alot of times) fighting as seperate static fronts, zerg Cannot cost effectively build lurker/sunken/spore at more then 1 base without being dramatically ahead when doing so.
You are right those small numbers of defending units will get smashed, and quickly.
This modern toss style trys to preasure the zerg hard enough for them to crack OR make them overdefend while they take a third base. If zerg doesn't cost effectively defelect protoss zealot/archon they will be pretty far behind. Also spending that money agrees in completely relinquishing map control to protoss. Most professional zergs are using hydra heavy early-midgame and even lategame to avoid losing complete map control early on.
|
Norway28669 Posts
its much easier to face a group of zealots+2 templars than zealots + 1 archon
zealots + 2 templars = use 12 speedlings to kill templars then attack with the rest of your force
vs zealots+archon you actually need to have a superior force. pressuring early with +1 speedzealot and 1 archon forces zerg to sacrifice economy more than he would have to if you pressure with 1+ speedzealots and 2 templars, and the goal with this initial outbreak is not to kill the zerg, but to get slight economic advantage which transforms into a bigger advantage later on.
|
eri....
You should post more
|
On December 05 2008 16:09 evanthebouncy! wrote:
In small numbers archon superior
In large numbers templar superior.
Try some micro map, see for yourself. Especially you have early +1 which makes archon deadly.
1 and 2: True
3: What about the +1 makes archons more deadly? 30 --> 33 dmg?
Zergling HP 35, Hydra HP 80, Drone HP 40. Are you refering to the splash effect crossing over some golden line or..? Don't really get how the +1 is all too important for the archon as a timing thing.
|
On December 05 2008 16:09 evanthebouncy! wrote:
In small numbers archon superior
In large numbers templar superior.
Try some micro map, see for yourself. Especially you have early +1 which makes archon deadly.
I may be wrong, but I'd go the otherway and say archons are better in both situations. Their high damage, splash and ability to absorb far more damage than a dt makes them superior overall.
|
Norway28669 Posts
its not archon vs dt its archon vs templar
storm is obviously better the larger a battle is
|
On December 09 2008 12:42 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2008 06:09 FabledIntegral wrote:
All you said was you notice that archons are made before templar throw out a storm. I wasn't aware that meant only early-mid game. That can be in any situation, and you even used "archons" as plural, and generally only 1 is made, possibly two, but you just used the plural form. What was I supposed to assume...
I say give me a break^ I just started posting on TL. For someone with 6 posts, you are doing a great job. Trying to help people is awesome. I think he took it as an insult that you explained the lategame pvz,which is the 1a2a3a4a mode. Which is stupid..... If someone doesn't understand PvZ strategy and unit choices on a primative early-midgame level I should think they would be more gracious for any advice that is given to them. Welcome to tl.net where even the noobies who don't know shit act like assholes .
I'm actually around a C to C+ toss. I just couldn't figure out this concept because it's a different style than what I usually play. to vouche on that ask jonoman92 He's one of my managers.
But anyways didn't know my initial post was so misguided to late game considering most referred to it as the mid game sorry bout the confusion.
Bisu's style is something I would like to intergrate into my own. Seeing the recent influx of archons being used vs a hydra build is something new to me.
|
On December 10 2008 20:19 Aurious wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2008 12:42 AttackZerg wrote:On December 09 2008 06:09 FabledIntegral wrote:
All you said was you notice that archons are made before templar throw out a storm. I wasn't aware that meant only early-mid game. That can be in any situation, and you even used "archons" as plural, and generally only 1 is made, possibly two, but you just used the plural form. What was I supposed to assume...
I say give me a break^ I just started posting on TL. For someone with 6 posts, you are doing a great job. Trying to help people is awesome. I think he took it as an insult that you explained the lategame pvz,which is the 1a2a3a4a mode. Which is stupid..... If someone doesn't understand PvZ strategy and unit choices on a primative early-midgame level I should think they would be more gracious for any advice that is given to them. Welcome to tl.net where even the noobies who don't know shit act like assholes . I'm actually around a C to C+ toss. I just couldn't figure out this concept because it's a different style than what I usually play. to vouche on that ask jonoman92 He's one of my managers. But anyways didn't know my initial post was so misguided to late game considering most referred to it as the mid game sorry bout the confusion. Bisu's style is something I would like to intergrate into my own. Seeing the recent influx of archons being used vs a hydra build is something new to me.
I'm sorry but I haven't met any C+ protoss who couldn't grasp the power of archons.... and couldn't watch 1 vod or replay and understand the dynamics of why and why not....
|
Sometimes a person just can't grasp it with a tad bit of help. Mostly I personally haven't seen this build and was wanting more information to it.
|
On December 11 2008 09:42 Aurious wrote:
Sometimes a person just can't grasp it with a tad bit of help. Mostly I personally haven't seen this build and was wanting more information to it.
I was referring to the fact that a player of C+ caliber would be able to grasp it easily.
|
On December 05 2008 05:38 VorcePA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 04:55 Final_Judicator wrote:
To point a few things out:
1. Archons are NOT meatshields by any means, they are damage dealers. Yes, they have 350 shield points, but still, the plasma shield does not have any basic armor and takes 100% damage of everything. The amazing thing about archons is their damage output. A full-upgraded 39 damage, combined with an extremly high attack speed, is no joke. Zealots are the actual meatshields, please remember this. It's kind of a yes and no. 350 shields, despite taking full damage from everything under the sun, is still 350 hitpoints. If you were to take the damage reduction + armor upgrade from a zealot, how much hit points would they have compared to an archon? The downside where you don't really want to use archons as meatshields is, obviously, the fact that they cost 300 gas each. That's almost an arbiter right there.
yes because you would much rather have an arbiter in pvz
|
On December 05 2008 04:43 LastWish wrote:
It's pretty simple.
Basic Logic :
1 zealot vs 2 hydras = zealot most probably wins
10 zealots vs 20 hydras = hydras most probably win
One group of hydras - can dodge storms pretty easily and snipe templars
One archon backed by zealots can increase potential dramatically because A-move hydras attack zealots and archon range allows attack from behind.
Concusion is small battles -> archons
Large battles -> templars + storm
zealot does not beat beat hydra in a 1v2 situation.
|
After testing the build a little I'm a little confused on the gas timings. The first one is normal but around what time do I make the second?
I'm thinking around the time of the citadel being made because getting gas at core seems to be too much gas and will slow the build down a substantually timing wise.
It seems quite difficult to stop for a zerg because either way it puts LOTS of pressure wasting drones/timing windows.
|
On December 13 2008 12:48 Aurious wrote:
After testing the build a little I'm a little confused on the gas timings. The first one is normal but around what time do I make the second?
I'm thinking around the time of the citadel being made because getting gas at core seems to be too much gas and will slow the build down a substantually timing wise.
It seems quite difficult to stop for a zerg because either way it puts LOTS of pressure wasting drones/timing windows.
If your going straight for archon/zealot opening rather then a +1 zealotspeed -> archon Gas after you start citedal is fine but I think if you open +1 -speed first its after adding 4 gates. My knowledge of that part is based off of what I see with my overlords so I could be off.
|
That sounds about right which do you think is the stronger build overall. I find adding the +1 after the citadel doesn't go for the "perfect" gas timing on the archon I seemed to be ~100 gas short. Obviously I am doing something wrong would the first gas have to come before the gateway to afford Stargate, Citadel, Sair, +1wep, zeal speed, Archives, 2 templar.
The gas before the gateway would provide ample gas but what would the timing on the first zealot be like?
Can be kinda hard to judge overall.
|
On December 10 2008 20:19 Aurious wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2008 12:42 AttackZerg wrote:On December 09 2008 06:09 FabledIntegral wrote:
All you said was you notice that archons are made before templar throw out a storm. I wasn't aware that meant only early-mid game. That can be in any situation, and you even used "archons" as plural, and generally only 1 is made, possibly two, but you just used the plural form. What was I supposed to assume...
I say give me a break^ I just started posting on TL. For someone with 6 posts, you are doing a great job. Trying to help people is awesome. I think he took it as an insult that you explained the lategame pvz,which is the 1a2a3a4a mode. Which is stupid..... If someone doesn't understand PvZ strategy and unit choices on a primative early-midgame level I should think they would be more gracious for any advice that is given to them. Welcome to tl.net where even the noobies who don't know shit act like assholes . I'm actually around a C to C+ toss. I just couldn't figure out this concept because it's a different style than what I usually play. to vouche on that ask jonoman92 He's one of my managers. But anyways didn't know my initial post was so misguided to late game considering most referred to it as the mid game sorry bout the confusion. Bisu's style is something I would like to intergrate into my own. Seeing the recent influx of archons being used vs a hydra build is something new to me.
Aurious speaks the truth, and he is certainly no nub! He beats me in PvP sometimes... although that really isn't so hard to do.
IF I know the Z isn't going mutas I prefer leaving my first 2 ht unmorphed and making an archon with the 2nd two. That was I can move out with 2 hts with plenty of energy, possibly even enough for 2 storms each, a large groups of zeal, and the archon to pressure the Z and to secure a 2nd expo.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
