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United States17042 Posts
On December 05 2008 07:56 Ideas wrote:
As a Z player, it seems archons are better than templars in aspects:
vs ultras or lings storms are a lot riskier than archons (can be dodged, hurt your own units)
templars can be sniped somewhat easily
t button is very far away on the keyboard!
the last point isn't quite valid, but what helps it is that you need to micro ht by actually psistorming to make them effective- archons you can move around in a control group with zeals to keep them effective, and you arn't forced to have as much multitask.
+ Show Spoiler +
you can 1a2a3a4a with archons/zeal, you cannot with ht, especially when you need the apm/multitask elsewhere.
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the psi storm upgrade is 200 minerals AND gas, and takes a while to upgrade. morphing your 1st few templars is meant to do a zealot/archon timing attack without waiting for both energy for temps and the storm upgrade.
you can almost get another archon and another zealot for the price of psi storm.
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On December 05 2008 07:56 Ideas wrote:
t button is very far away on the keyboard!
build pylon must be hell for you
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lol at xiaofan  ))))
build probe and spaming it at the beginning is even harder
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Tasteless has been pointing out early archons as well in Gom Classic.
I guess that makes sense, though. Until you get energy upgrade, you need to wait for templar to gain enough energy to storm, and in earlier low-econ situations, the zerg will be more mindful of spreading his fewer units if a templar is present; not to mention sniping that templar would become a priority. And then there's also the speed factor that people have mentioned. I think it's easier to be aggressive earlier on, to really make that +1 speedlot timing attack effective...at least that's how it's been used at the top levels.
As for defending against mutas, an archon alone won't do it...you'd still need to get a couple cannons in the mineral lines. I think it's definitely advisable to get archons if your build either skips stargate or you don't intend on getting more than one or two, though.
I dunno. As a zerg, no matter what tech I have, seeing an archon mixed into an army is scary. T_T
On December 05 2008 08:45 xiaofan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 07:56 Ideas wrote:
t button is very far away on the keyboard!
build pylon must be hell for you
HAHAHAHA win.
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On December 05 2008 09:05 andrey3332 wrote:lol at xiaofan )))) build probe and spaming it at the beginning is even harder
I dont really think you got it  the build is meant as the hotkey to build
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as a zerg player I can tell you that the early army with an archon or two is much more threatening than one with a 2-4 templar.
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Ya, If you have enough judgement and game sense, you can usually overpower lower zerg players with 1-2 archons+5-8 zealots. They soak up alot of inital fire....There almost like a free shield that does a shitload of damage
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I'm just going to reiterate a few of the points that were correctly made in this thread.
1. archons deal impressive damage AND are meat shields.
2. Vs 5 hat scourge -> hydra/lurker 2 archons + zealots can mow down a huge base with 2-3 lurkers + 1 sunken very easily, this preasure causes alot of zergs to overproduce hydras which makes for slow lair/grades/4th base.
(Edit; this is my theoretical opinion of superior strategy against 5 hat scourge first play, number 2 isn't definative and is based on my study/understanding of ZvP at the b- level and the pro gaming, PvZ trends of recent times.)
3. a Timming archon/zealot moveout is a counter to macro zerg.
4. Archons protect templar and zealots while templar can only do so much.
I think early-midgame archons are very very strong instead of early temps.
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On December 05 2008 11:01 Racenilatr wrote:They soak up alot of inital fire....There almost like a free shield that does a shitload of damage
Yeah, I guess 100 minerals and 300 gas is almost like free. -.-a
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Well, archons are meat shields more often in PvT when you merge them after storming. Archons in PvT aren't nearly as useful as in PvZ...Vultures do full damage to the shields, tanks eat them up...so basically they don't do much as far as attack in PvT. Unless of course for harassment, they're ok. I prefer temp though.
Bonus about archons in PvT: you can float over mines.
Early archons make the zerg spend money on hydras or sunkens, since lings will hardly be a defense. Beware of running into a sunken line, especially if they target your archon, since sunkens deal explosive damage...40 damage to shields is not something you want happening.
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United States44352 Posts
On December 05 2008 11:19 AttackZerg wrote:
I'm just going to reiterate a few of the points that were correctly made in this thread.
1. archons deal impressive damage AND are meat shields.
2. Vs 5 hat scourge -> hydra/lurker 2 archons + zealots can mow down a huge base with 2-3 lurkers + 1 sunken very easily, this preasure causes alot of zergs to overproduce hydras which makes for slow lair/grades/4th base.
3. a Timming archon/zealot moveout is a counter to macro zerg.
4. Archons protect templar and zealots while templar can only do so much.
I think early-midgame archons are very very strong instead of early temps.
What kind of sair play are we looking at? Because if we're skipping sair or only making 1 to scout then can't the Z just play havoc on your min line with 8 or so muta? Sair into darksair into zeestorm is a far more natural transition than sair into zeechon imo. Chons do not counter muta harass, at least not above C or so. And providing he doesn't actually engage your zeechon army with his muta (why would he? he's not making more than the 8 to harass and they're on your min line) there's not so much you can do.
I don't know, I'm just having trouble seeing the game flow where zeechon overpowers hydra in a situation where zeestorm wouldn't. That said, I certainly don't doubt your experience so if you have reps I'd certainly like to see them. Early-midgame chons aren't really my style.
Your other points are correct.
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On December 05 2008 07:23 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 07:22 Dromar wrote:On December 05 2008 06:05 lololol wrote:
1 archon = 360 hp + shields
8 probes = 320
4 zealots = 640
This doesn't even account for armor and that gas is more valuable than minerals, so no, archons aren't meat shields at all. So this comparison is based on cost rather than supply? I don't play protoss, but I'm pretty sure an archon is 4 supply, so it would look like 1 archon = 360+shield regen 4 probes = 160+shield regen 2 zeals = 320+shield regen I'd say that, using this comparison (supply rather than cost) zeals are still better imo because they'll have armor to give them more bonus hits. IMO, vs anything but ultra/ling with many ultras and few lings, storms would be better. Of course you'll want both by that time anyway, but mostly you need archons to deal with ultras, although mass goon works okay too. Mutas are a special case. They can get owned by storm, but they're also awesome templar snipers. They can get owned by archon hits, but they also can outmaneuver them. Comparing it by supply is absurd. Cost is the way to compare.
This also ignores how archons do *30* damage, and 39 with upgrades! Then they have splash, move fairly quickly, are almost completely *un*affected by plague, and can attack both air and ground. They rape lings better than anything, and ultras get eaten by them with the massive damage and fast attack rate. Bottom line, archons own, and are often worth it.
With the templar, you can't always get 20 storms off. Normally, you'll get around 5-6. Thus, 3-4 templar is fine, while the rest go to archons. Remember, a huge army of archons is almost unstoppable.
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On December 05 2008 13:06 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 11:19 AttackZerg wrote:
I'm just going to reiterate a few of the points that were correctly made in this thread.
1. archons deal impressive damage AND are meat shields.
2. Vs 5 hat scourge -> hydra/lurker 2 archons + zealots can mow down a huge base with 2-3 lurkers + 1 sunken very easily, this preasure causes alot of zergs to overproduce hydras which makes for slow lair/grades/4th base.
3. a Timming archon/zealot moveout is a counter to macro zerg.
4. Archons protect templar and zealots while templar can only do so much.
I think early-midgame archons are very very strong instead of early temps. What kind of sair play are we looking at? Because if we're skipping sair or only making 1 to scout then can't the Z just play havoc on your min line with 8 or so muta? Sair into darksair into zeestorm is a far more natural transition than sair into zeechon imo. Chons do not counter muta harass, at least not above C or so. And providing he doesn't actually engage your zeechon army with his muta (why would he? he's not making more than the 8 to harass and they're on your min line) there's not so much you can do. I don't know, I'm just having trouble seeing the game flow where zeechon overpowers hydra in a situation where zeestorm wouldn't. That said, I certainly don't doubt your experience so if you have reps I'd certainly like to see them. Early-midgame chons aren't really my style. Your other points are correct.
The power of a chon/zealot rush is best demonstrated by bisu in recents games vs Devil on gomtv.net.
Also vs Calm (same tournament) and recently vs yellow. They are moving out with the chons after basic muta harrass has ended, about the same time zerg will get lurkers in a standard 5 hat/3base game.
Also Jaedong vs Sango, although the DTs in his main are what screwed him, his army was completely out of position because of a highly aggressive zealot-chon army. Which is why I think its stronger then protoss 'tech' play, one wrong move and zerg is looking at 2base vs 2 base zvp. I should have added in my orginal statement that is was my theoretical opinion, which I will go back and edit in.
By reps, I'm assuming you mean reps of chon/lot raping my 8-10 muta- 5 hat play , or similar variations, then I can gladly ablige, oystein rapes me with it plenty  . I rather you watch the pro vods of better zergs dying to it thou =).
New trends of PvZ seem to say, fuck your muta harrass because my huge ground army is going to move out again and again and again and you won't even get to do much. Personally, I've stopped going muta before lurker against 5 gate play, the rapes are to painfull.
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(edit, I was trying to edit and hit quote .. woops)
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Braavos36402 Posts
On December 05 2008 08:12 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:
the psi storm upgrade is 200 minerals AND gas, and takes a while to upgrade. morphing your 1st few templars is meant to do a zealot/archon timing attack without waiting for both energy for temps and the storm upgrade.
you can almost get another archon and another zealot for the price of psi storm.
the cost of psi storm is not considered here at all, it's basically always upgraded if you get an archives. delaying psi storm for a 200m/200g midgame boost in units is just not worth it.
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In small numbers archon superior
In large numbers templar superior.
Try some micro map, see for yourself. Especially you have early +1 which makes archon deadly.
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On December 05 2008 15:48 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2008 08:12 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:
the psi storm upgrade is 200 minerals AND gas, and takes a while to upgrade. morphing your 1st few templars is meant to do a zealot/archon timing attack without waiting for both energy for temps and the storm upgrade.
you can almost get another archon and another zealot for the price of psi storm. the cost of psi storm is not considered here at all, it's basically always upgraded if you get an archives. delaying psi storm for a 200m/200g midgame boost in units is just not worth it.
For the archon/zealot timming attack that is popular right now, they aren't waiting for storm, or even bringing templars until there second or even third waveof units. If you don't plan on using storm right away there is no need to auto upgrade if first and delay your attack ... right?
Its like adding a machine shop to both factorys in a TvP 2 fact tank/vulture push just because you know you'll need to produce tanks from 2 facts at some point ..... Is it worth losing your timming push?
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Ah, so it's a timing attack I have been watching lately. I see now. thanks
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On December 05 2008 17:29 Aurious wrote:
Ah, so it's a timing attack I have been watching lately. I see now. thanks
The timming various from game to game, its adaptive, but the basic idea is 2-3 archons + speedlots vs zerg natural /third base while you take a third with cannons. I have yet to see anybody execute is like bisu thou. The man is a pvz god.
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EPT
