EPT! [G] ZvP - Adaptation Tactics - Page 5
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
12 hatch version: JD vs bisu on blue storm, in this version if you make den right after 5th hatch, den and spire will finish about the same time, it doesn't slow the double tech at all. 9 pool version: JD vs stork on Fantasy II. This is my favorite zvp game, when I first watched it I could not understand how JD came back so strong after his 9 pool doing zero damage to a nexus first FE build, but after watching it god knows how many times, the secret lies all in the build itself.  PS. In your guide 3 hatch muta really doesn't deserve its own section if you are covering 3 hatch lair, 3 hatch muta is simply a variation. Current zvp thought is to use mutas to counter +1 speedlot, and use only scourge if the opponent makes a stargate. A second fine point of 12 gas is so that you get enough mutas before +1 finishes, another timing issue. | ||
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dogen
Belgium108 Posts
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
In oversky game, white-ra went for the +1 speedzeal attack and oversky had the den up in time to counter it with his own 4 hat hydra, if he had made it after 5 hat he would have had to rely upon the mondragon-esque zergling style, or the mutas, which I don't find particularly effective against a +1 speedzeal rush because yes, you'll be able to clean it up, but it's going to be doing tons of damage regardless because it takes so long to kill the zealots. And even if you don't take too much damage, it will be very easy for him to get his advantage anyways with having his 3rd going up. I feel that when you get both up at the same time and a later gas, you match the economy of your 12 gas build in return for more options upon deciding how you want to counter. With yours, yes you get faster mutas but you delay the hydra den so you can have good macro, whereas the one I talked about is getting them both at the same time just a bit later because of later gas. Your build forces you to play very defensively, as you said, but in the one I saw oversky and other reps (see dragoon vs anytime) it allows you to play either offensively or defensively, depending on how you want to play. Yes, oversky obviously isn't the one designing the builds or w/e but if you look at JAedong vs bisu he does seem to do the thing I'm talking about - also just like oversky he gets the ovie speed upgrade quickly as well as the ovie drop upgrade quickly, for a dual mounted attack. I don't remember the game too much but he does get hydra den first, but spire soon after iirc. I'll have to watch it when I'm back. Coming back to your build with the 12 gas, I notice that in your game your second gas was severely later than an 18 gas's second gas. iirc you got your second gas when spire was about 75%, and oversky / JD / soo got them at Lair 50% (I will upload soo rep when I get back so you can see that). Overall I'm not too familiar with the build so I'll have to do more research, I think yours is just a variation and there are multiple kinds that people do, such as the JD ones you listed or the oversky / JD / soo ones. JD seems to do them depending on situations and others copy him. edit: Thank you for the criticism though, because it will make the final section there much clearer and more in-depth and as well, it's teaching me because I only just saw the build a week or two ago. Others, please add input too so I can understand more (I've downloaded lots of reps to study it, however). | ||
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akio123
United States46 Posts
thanks wolf | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
It's 4 hatch lair, going speed hydra --> muta --> lurker hydra drop and/or frontal attack. This is a very aggressive build designed to work on new maps where the third base has gas and is easily acquirable, because all the tech switches requires heavy gas income. I don't think you covered this build in your guide, but if you want to add it in, check out these games as well. Same build, same person, different maps.JD vs. Best on Katrina JD vs. Bisu on Colosseum That aside, I disagree with your analysis on gas timing and mutas' effectiveness. The first gas timing determines tech timing, while the second gas timing determines the amount of gas units you can make. Taking second gas early will compensate taking first gas late in terms of how many gas units you can produce, but it doesn't do anything to help your tech timing. The point of fast lair is to counter protoss' tech timing, its not like we want to mass produce scourge or anything, we just need enough gas to get the upgrades. On muta vs. speedlot, I wasn't being specific. If you scout your opponent not making a stargate, you take your second gas right away, skip 5th hachery and you should have 9-11 mutas ready when the zealots arrive, that many mutas + 12 speedlings + 1 or 2 sunken can mop up 1 group of zealots easily. I've never had to make more than 2 sukens to absorb the zealot attack. And while he is attacking, I take my 4th, make pure drones and get lurker upgrade, after the battle I have 4 bases and close to 50 drones, while protoss just finished cannoning up his main and natural. Usually if you take damage from zealots your mutas weren't fast enough, possibly due to the late gas. Most Koreans never do hardcore speedlots anymore precisely for this reason. If they go without a stargate they usually tech very fast to templars with less zealots, which means he won't attack at all if you have mutas flying around. Then its up to the zerg to get his hydra timing correctly to survive the archon/zeal push. Everything is timing. As regard to oversky, he has failed to impressed me with any results for a long time now. Low econ drop play is like the only thing he is capable of doing at the moment, and his macro can't seem to keep up anymore. I do not advise learning his variation on JD's build. | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
To deal with zealots your speedlings should be more than enough, just keep to the 3:1 ratio. Its not that big of a deal to make a few more lings, as long as you are not forced to make sunken or hydras early. Time your lings to match his zealot number, usually 12 is plenty to deal with any small force, if he sends like 5 slow zealots, pop a few more lings to make him regret wasting units. As long as you pump pure drones until after the corsair threat is over, your economy should be fine. As to toss' tech split, you only need to know whether he has a stargate or not. It's obvious because the number of gateways he has will give it away even if he hides the stargate itself. If he has a stargate, mutas are not good, all he has to do is to keep pumping sairs until he can beat you in air, while making dts to exploit your slow ovie, and mass speedlots to exploit your lack of ground units, once your mutas are no longer a threat he'll do damage to you. Down side to a stargate and corsair is that he will have less zealots, even though +1 and speed still finish at the same time, the less zealots he has the less hydras you need to defend, you really don't need to make any hydras until after the corsair threat is over. Add 1 sunken at natural and 1 at third, plus your early speedlings should be plenty to help the speed hydras. Now, if he makes only one corsair for scouting, get lurker up after speed, you'll need lurkers to defend storm/zealot combo. If he makes a lot of corsairs, you can get range after speed, lurker after range, because the more corsairs he makes the less zealots on the ground. On the other hand, if your opponent doesn't have a stargate, going muta will be a good choice, I would just delay 5th hatch, den and ovie speed to get 11 mutas to fend off the zealots, while catch up my eco and upgrades after mutas pop. We are not "feigning" mutas, it really is an option for us, we just choose not to go mutas if there is a stargate or two to counter us. What I'm trying to say is that the den timing is designed to counter toss' attack timing, we do have the double tech choice, we just don't need the den any earlier. If you did a 9 pool speed build, your opponent's eco should be slowed down too, so his attack timing is delayed as well as your own defense timing, you really don't need earlier hydras unless you plan to attack him, but such early hydra attacks are usually all in. | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
We are not doing hydra for that long though. Both VODs I linked featured protoss opening sair/reaver, in that case we get speed and range before lurker tech, and mass hydra. But if toss only got 1 corsair for scouting, we get lurker before range, and transition quickly into lurker/hydra/ling. About the chambers, I think JD got carapace and range attack, because that makes the most sense vs. sair/reaver, and he might have done that because he opened 9 pool and didn't have the resource for a third chamber early. But in the 12 hatch version vs Bisu he did have 3 chambers going. The Korean Z style doesn't rely on upgrades that much, it relies on econ and mass. The idea is that a large army down 1 upgrade is stronger than a small army up 1 upgrade. Zerg units are designed to be weak but numerous so it makes a lot of sense to me. Also, that puts a lot of pressure on the protoss, because his lead on upgrades is temporary, it's up to his skills to damage zerg while he has that upgrade advantage. Here is a 12 hatch one I played. You'll see the toss is clearly better than me but he made a few mistakes and I got lucky. My BO is not very good in this game, I messed up my scourge and lurker timing and suffered disasters, but even so, the econ and production speed from this build were the only things that kept me alive. This is what a protoss with really good timing looks like, and how defiler saves the day despite many ppl argue they are useless in zvp. http://rapidshare.com/files/123869086/0613_sMilolsZ_50CaLSungMinP.rep.html We can exchange reps to help each other, post yours. | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
 http://fighterreplays.com/starcraft/replays/024954 OR http://www.savefile.com/files/1621286 We both made some mistakes and saw them after analyzing the replay together: 1. My mutas didn't do much damage because I was trying to macro 2. My mutas came very late because I didn't know spire was done 3. I didn't take out his min only 4. I didn't take out his 5 o clock because I didn't know it was so low on health 5. I did not have good flanks, storms ripped me apart 6. Stasis ripped me apart, I had bad flanks 7. The lurker thing 8. If only I knew he was finally out of minerals... -_- 1. He didn't upgrade leg speed 2. He almost was gonna say gg when he saw mutas, but I did so little damage because they were late and I was trying to macro at home 3. He is Zerg but plays PvZ, which is his worst matchup I had some good plagues and stuff and the overlord / arbiter micro was cute so I still enjoyed the game | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
What I'm saying is, someone write a Protoss guide, because I have no fucking clue. | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
My thoughts: 1. 4th hatch too early, get spire first, and don't stop drones, get 4th when you have the minerals, that delayed your mutas. 2. Second gas too late. I know I got it late vs. a stargate build, but when the opponent has no stargate, I get second gas immediately to pump out more mutas right away. If you sent 8-9 mutas without all the delay, you could've won the game because his cannons were late, and so was his archive. 3. Main problem, low econ. After you had enough mutas you should have pumped pure drones from 5 hatcheries while upgrading lurker, carapace, and ovie speed. You should have been able to saturate 11 (around 45 drones in total, that's about all you need to finish the game) before having to commit to combat units again. In this particular game he actually threw away his entire zealot army for no reason, that was a suicide move from him, I would have taken advantage of that and expoed to both 12 and 6 and sealed the win. Did you notice that you were always low on money while he had something like 10000 in the bank? 4. Second main problem, you kept throwing your units away...Every good toss player who helped me told me the same thing: it's toss' job to kill zerg, just grow and grow and run over him when you are big enough. To my understanding "big enough" means enough econ to support a production speed that is faster than your opponent's, at that point just keep trading units and he won't be able to keep up the reinforcement. In this game you threw away I can't even count how many lurkers and zerglings, when all you had to do to win was to form a lurker line on your big ramp and macro up, it's his job to kill you before you get too big. And if he fails any attack, you can immediately run over him with units left over and faster production speed. 5. Defiler was too late. Don't use ultras without defilers, you wasted a lot of ultra/ling to archons because you didn't have swarm for support. I would have made both at the same time if not defiler first. You might be too used to play mondi's aggressive style, but keep in mind your zerglings do not have equal upgrades in this build. Our aggression is based on mass, don't attack with small groups of units just to waste them. Your muta use was fine IMO. | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
I am really loving this new build! It's a much stronger ZvP build imo against the opponents I play. Here's a replay of me losing to a B+ toss, but I held out quite long and held an advantage early game, although his late game was far superior to mine so he came ahead. I can list a few things I may have done wrong. 1. I probably should have expanded more after dealing so much damage with the mutalisk harrass 2. Took too much damage from the DTs 3. When I engaged his army, they were at bad times when he had way more superior army and my defilers were always too late. 4. Throwing units away again (I do this in 2v2 too :\) 5. I think I got a better timing gas, a little bit less low economy so overall I think it's improving nicely. 6. Transition to lurkers was too late 7. Let him break out of contain too easily 8. Did not make drones at 12 for very long time, so couldn't maintain a good ultraling count (and less expoes too as stated earlier) I think I'm going to have to change the guide a bit to include this build more It's become my favorite build! The guide has been updated, also, for everyone else! | ||
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EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
2. While muta harassing, double expo + chambers + drones + ovie/hydra speed, better multitasking, too many zerglings that should have been drones. 3. Not enough drones through out the game. Even playing aggressively you need at least 40 drones, I play more defensively and I go for like 50-60 drones. You had like less than 35 drones the entire game, while your opponent had something around 60 probes, you lost on econ. Good job with early timing. | ||
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Bifur
Russian Federation1208 Posts
7 Pool 6 Drone 7 Overlord 7 Drone 8 (3 pairs of lings) This gives you an economic advantage and Drone+Overlord+drone after 7 pool gives enough time for 3 larva to pump out exactly when pool is finished | ||
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gondolin
France332 Posts
12 hatch 11 pool 13 hatch 12 gas or 9 overpool 11 hatch 6 lings 13 hatch 12 gas ... whore drone, lair then speedling spire when lair finishes 4th hatch (4 hatch, 3 bases) vs stargate: 5hatch, den after den and spire finishes at the same time -> 2 scourge to counter the sair + a few hydras vs mass sairs: upgrade ov speed, speed then range then lurker 6th hatch at expand vs sairs + ground ov speed, hydra speed then lurkers vs zealot push 9-11 mutas 5th hatch ov speed+ hydra speed then lurkers When do you take the 2nd gas? You said you have to take it earlier versus ground, but when is it? Thanks for this build, it looks great! | ||
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