EPTStill a very well-written guide nevertheless. Now if only a toss can write a guide like this.
! [G] ZvP - Adaptation Tactics - Page 7
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
Wala.Revolution
7584 Posts
Still a very well-written guide nevertheless. Now if only a toss can write a guide like this. | ||
|
Impervious
Canada4216 Posts
I played against a player recently, and instead of going for sairs, he went for scouts. I opened 9-or-10-pool (can't remember which one right now) into lair first, then speed (2-hatch). When I saw the scouts I immediately put down a den, evo chamber and creep colonies, turning them into spore colonies when the evo chamber finished. I was able to defend the initial few scouts easily. The problem is this - the scouts just wouldn't die. They are a lot harder to kill than sairs, and can be used to kill drones, as well as overlords, quickly. I treated it exactly how I would react to Corsairs. I went for a Hydra break (since Scouts are resource intensive, I figured I would have a good chance at winning right there and then). That failed, but I ended up containing him well, stopping him from even taking his natural until about 15 minutes into the game (he was able to secure an island expansion, it was on Python). His suicide scouts, however, were killing drones, expansions, and overlords like there was no tomorrow. Air units were not going to be effective, and ground units were not mobile enough to handle them. I ended up losing after about 35 minutes, simply because his ball of stacked scouts was just too much to handle (3-3-3 ups, plus speed and sight), plus a formidable zealot army (also 3-3-3 ups plus speed). I was thinking about getting a defiler and plaguing the ball of scouts, but I was never able to spare the resources (constantly having to rebuild). I feel like I should have won that game, but I'm not sure if I adapted right. Since this guide is about ZvP, I figured you would have a better idea of how to adapt to it. How do you adapt to Scouts? | ||
|
LuDwig-
Italy1143 Posts
| ||
|
ghermination
United States2851 Posts
| ||
|
Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
 For scouts, you can't afford to overreact and put an evo + 2 creep + 2 spore = 325 + 100 drones + mining time (I think if I counted right). Try to just defend with hydralisks because it will be possible, you should be able to have them too because scouts take twice as long as corsairs to build. They are viable yes, and kill overlords much faster, but the time to build + increased costs delay the Protoss a lot as well. Just don't overreact and you should be able to play standard from there. From what I understand it seems like your opponent was going constant scouts though. I guess really it would be strong to do such a thing because even devourers are blown to pieces by the strong Anti-air capacity of scouts. Still, not only does the expense of a scout take away from his ground army size (giving you lots of options to move around the map and have ground map control, many units would work), as long as you don't stay on the defensive and don't let him expand you should win just by the game playing itself out. Eventually you'll have more spores than his poor air-to-ground can handle and also have swarm+plague which'll definitely disable his scouts. Put pressure on him and defend as little as you can. If you pressure him enough he will have no choice but to defend with scouts and/or switch to other units. If you went for a hydra break after overreacting with making too many early spores and it failed, you would be behind no matter what happened, so it would explain why he would overrun you with many scouts later and you could only barely defend as he expanded everywhere. For overpool, it is actually a quite economically strong build. I don't know if I put in my guide that it was bad for economy, but I'd have to change that if I did. Overpool speed is the build you'll want to do damage with, but if it fails you can still salvage the game (plus usually you'll at least be able to get a few lings in or prevent scouting if he walls off with probes well). A regular overpool is meant to make a Protoss have to start cannons earlier than if you went a 12 hatch, but if you can runby that's an extra bonus. I'll update this guide later and maybe make a ZvZ... | ||
Empyrean
17050 Posts
On June 16 2009 05:59 Superiorwolf wrote: I think I'll re-update this guide once summer is almost over and I'm back from vacation, otherwise consider this guide not obsolete but quite out of date For scouts, you can't afford to overreact and put an evo + 2 creep + 2 spore = 325 + 100 drones + mining time (I think if I counted right). Try to just defend with hydralisks because it will be possible, you should be able to have them too because scouts take twice as long as corsairs to build. They are viable yes, and kill overlords much faster, but the time to build + increased costs delay the Protoss a lot as well. Just don't overreact and you should be able to play standard from there. From what I understand it seems like your opponent was going constant scouts though. I guess really it would be strong to do such a thing because even devourers are blown to pieces by the strong Anti-air capacity of scouts. Still, not only does the expense of a scout take away from his ground army size (giving you lots of options to move around the map and have ground map control, many units would work), as long as you don't stay on the defensive and don't let him expand you should win just by the game playing itself out. Eventually you'll have more spores than his poor air-to-ground can handle and also have swarm+plague which'll definitely disable his scouts. Put pressure on him and defend as little as you can. If you pressure him enough he will have no choice but to defend with scouts and/or switch to other units. If you went for a hydra break after overreacting with making too many early spores and it failed, you would be behind no matter what happened, so it would explain why he would overrun you with many scouts later and you could only barely defend as he expanded everywhere. For overpool, it is actually a quite economically strong build. I don't know if I put in my guide that it was bad for economy, but I'd have to change that if I did. Overpool speed is the build you'll want to do damage with, but if it fails you can still salvage the game (plus usually you'll at least be able to get a few lings in or prevent scouting if he walls off with probes well). A regular overpool is meant to make a Protoss have to start cannons earlier than if you went a 12 hatch, but if you can runby that's an extra bonus. I'll update this guide later and maybe make a ZvZ... Why wouldn't you just Scourge the Scouts? | ||
|
Husky
United States3362 Posts
| ||
|
Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
From a 2 hatch lurker build I think your lurker aspect will be done by the time his scout comes although I'm not quite sure since I rarely use that build. Thus this is where you can't overreact and just try to defend with hydras while either continuing with the lurker drop plan or just using lurkers to prevent the Protoss from expanding and giving yourself full map control as you get your economy up to counter. Getting a spire just for scourge when you've already gone 2 hat lurker and are low economy is not a great idea imo. If you did the nowadays standard 3 hatch gas into lair+spire scourge to hydramuta build, then of course you could just use scourge. I'll have to update that in this guide though since it's really changed and all. Also I am kind of regretting writing that you should pool first when you do a 2 hat build. Although the reasoning about preventing scouting is valid, it really makes your economy a lot worse. I'll probably have to edit that. I'm not sure exactly how I said it but off of memory I think I wrote like "pool first is best for 2 hatch builds" but now I don't think it really is. Hopefully I will be able to update soon in the future!  | ||
|
Piste
6183 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1484/zvpintrodr3.png ) | ||
|
Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
| ||
|
w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
| ||
|
Wala.Revolution
7584 Posts
On June 16 2009 11:56 Piste wrote: i stoppped reading after I saw the immature banner. Funny, I thought that it was always "Zerg scum" and protoss had other derogatory nicknames(?). No offense to zerg players if my post any sense. And yes, scouts are a piece of crap vs zergs who has spire, and doesn't fare well vs hydras... but then even 3 hydras (one at each base) can just negate a scout. However with speed and in numbers they are quite fun to use =D | ||
|
LeperKahn
Romania1847 Posts
I'm very disappointed. | ||
| ||
