! [G] ZvP - Adaptation Tactics

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 11 2008 00:56 GMT

[G] ZvP – Adaptation Tactics

By Superiorwolf

Preface

NOTICE: Any text that is ~~slashed~~ denotes possibly outdated or questionable information.
Last update: June 21, 2009

Welcome! This will be a fully comprehensive overview of the ZvP matchup. First off, congratulations on playing Zerg! Zerg is an excellent race that has an awesome balance between aggression and defense, and you can make a style that can cater to your personality. Zerg is powerful, Zerg is dominant and Zerg is magnificent. A good Zerg player needs both great decision making, game knowledge and the ability to execute tactics immaculately and perfectly. These things are what make Zerg the great race it is. I hope you have fun playing the beautiful race of Zerg!

Next, by no means am I saying I am a gosu expert – this guide is meant to kick start and help gamers at about the iCCup D-, D, D+ and C- level. Currently my rank is C+, and I have always felt a need for some more updated or recent guides on Teamliquid, a part of the strategy forum which is severely lacking.

iCCup Rank as of 7/21: B

When I was starting, no guides save the ZvP luna basics: how to abuse the crackling by zulu_nation8 existed. A fairly old guide, it is not always completely applicable to modern play and not too helpful for beginners. A recent guide has emerged however, The Art of ZvP by ZerG~LegenD. A nice guide that details several build orders.

However, it still stands that ZvP guides on TL.net are few, as only two exist currently. This is the reason I feel it is necessary to share some knowledge because I know that when I was starting out, not having a guide severely impaired my learning curve. Maybe a top foreigner will realize they desperately need to create a complete guide here. Not only will this be a learning experience for lesser players, but for me as well. Along the way I will ask questions and such, and your questions and answers shall be added into the op for others to learn from. Hopefully I will be able to dig up a sufficient number of FPVods, Vods and replays of each strategy and continually update it (this is where you guys can submit reps and such). The key theme for this ZvP guide will be adaptation, and I hope you will enjoy this guide and appreciate the work I put into this. Sadly I was unable to reach OVER NINE THOUSAND words, but close enough. I showed this to my friends before this submission and they felt it was very funny in many ways, and at least if you think the guide sucks it will give you some entertainment

Still, remember that training and playing games is the BEST way to improve, and you can use the helpful new Teamliquid wikipedia to help you out. Although this guide can be used to learn about the general flow of the ZvP matchup, it is not meant at all to be used as a substitute for real practice. Having a teacher or someone review your replays will probably lead to the most substantial improvement in the shortest time possible, as everyone's problems are different.

In all honesty, I made this guide just because I was bored but really, who makes an 8700+ word guide because they are bored? Well, I guess that’s Superiorwolf for you. Special thanks to Ahzz, Salv and the rest of SWBK and TL.net of course! As of October 23, 2008, I must implore everyone to take these comments with a pinch of salt; the guide is going to be outdated in several areas. Although I try my best to update it as much as possible, remember that Starcraft is constantly evolving and my skill and preferences also change with the times as well. Sometimes I may completely renovate the guide in some areas. If you have any questions, comments or suggestions, please tell me! Thanks

Edit: We are now over 9,000 words!
Edit: Success! This guide enticed the high level Finnish Zerg player and my friend, Ahzz, to finish the guide he had been working on for a year in less than two days! Read it here!
Edit: 11,000 words!
Edit: 12,000 words!
Edit: 13,000 words!
Edit: 15,000 words!

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Introduction

With the emergence of new Protoss tactics, ZvP, more than ever, has become a tactical matchup where the master strategist will succeed and be victorious. Bisu[Shield] and sAviOr[gm] have totally revolutionized this matchup, and more than ever strong wits and macro skills are required, as well as on-the-spot decision making. Zerg macro in this matchup will be a definite roadblock for beginners, but thankfully Zerg has a variety of builds to choose from and low-level Protoss users will make plenty of errors that can be capitalized on. Every build has its weaknesses, so adaptation and scouting is key.
With this, one must go into the game with a mindset of determination, and keep their goals focused. Cheesing because you are not solid in the matchup will not make you better. This matchup requires time and practice, but in the end it totally pays off. Now, we’ll begin our training.

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Key Timings

These are key timings that will allow you to maximize your efficiency in this matchup.

~~1. As soon as extractor finishes, creating an Evolution Chamber immediately will allow you to have 150 gas for +1 carapace as soon as Evolution Chamber finishes.~~
2. Making a Hydralisk Den when the Lair is 50% complete will make them both finish simultaneously, allowing for immediate researching of Lurker Aspect.
3. Spire should ideally be made upon completion of Lurker Aspect in terms of a lurker build.
4. Overlord speed is generally researched upon completion of the Spire.
5. When adrenal gland finishes, researching drop is extremely useful. After adrenal gland is finished, this is also a nice time to start an Ultralisk Cavern if you have not already.
6. Defilers should begin morphing when consume is 50% researched. When defilers arrive, consume will finish researching simultaneously.
7. When making mutalisks, save larva starting at 1 when the Spire reaches 300/600 (350/600 is acceptable as well) HP. This allows you to have exactly 3 larva waiting at each hatchery upon completion of the Spire.
8. When making zerglings, save larva starting at 1 when the Spawning Pool reachings 350/750 HP. This allows you to have exactly 3 larva waiting at each hatchery upon completion of the Spawning Pool.
9. When doing 3 Hatch muta, add 2nd gas around 50% completion of Lair.
10. When doing 2 Hatch muta, add 2nd gas when Spire is 50% complete.

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ZvP Openers

This section will show the openers available before you scout the enemy.

ZvP Foundational Build – 12 Hatch

Long has the 12 Hatch been a trademark of the Zerg. It has been established as an efficient build time and time over again – by likes of the Zerg gods such as sAviOr. But, how often should this build be utilized? This build should merely act as a macro/strategical foundation on which to base your ZvP on. It’s a great build, however, overusing it will lead to predictability. As well, Protoss encounters this build often, and thus is much more used to dealing with it than other builds you may use.

Proxy 2 gates, 2 gate rushes, and cannon rushes can also take advantage. Who wants to lose merely to a build-order counter? If you think about it, cannon rushing blocked behind minerals pays huge dividends for the Protoss. For merely a pylon and one or two cannons, they force you to draw drones, possibly lose hatchery and make a sunken. 250 minerals to force a sunken (50 + 75 + 50 = 175 minerals not including mining time) as well as making zerglings to deal with the threat. A small price to completely nullify the 12 Hatch’s advantages of being able to start a strong economy. So, you must always be aware of what is going on – if the scouting probe disappears, search for it. Rather pull a drone than take heavy economical damage. If Protoss scouts you and sees 12 hatch and makes a forge anyways, check for cannons. If their buildings are significantly delayed, check for general cheese. Be aware and cautious at all times!

Not to say this build is bad though, for 12 Hatching has several advantages. For one, 12 Hatch gives you a huge economic boost early game. It can be used on maps which don’t favor other builds (which will be discussed) and also on maps that favor macro and have long rush distances. 12 Hatch is also extremely versatile. Depending on what you scout, you can choose pretty much any route you want, be it macro, tech, aggression, etc. 12 Hatch is the foundation of ZvP.

3 Hatch Expand

12 Hatch (to natural)
11 Pool
13/14 Hatch (to closest 3rd generally, or gas)
Whore drones unless zerglings are needed, or you can make 2-8 lings to kill scout
~~17-22 Hatch (This is situational. Depends on when you have 300 minerals with constant production)~~
~~Add Extractor soon after 4th Hatch, Evolution Chamber goes immediately as Extractor finishes.~~
~~+1 Carapace~~
~~Zergling Speed~~
~~Lair~~

This is the standard Mondragon-esque variation of the 3 Hatch expand. This build gives you a superior macro and sets you up for a midgame play. Also counters a +1 speedzeal rush very effectively by making lings + matching a +1 carapace against a +1 attack. Quick Evolution Chamber allows protecting overlords against corsairs with spore colonies. Overall, a very strong, solid build which can be followed up in many ways.

When the opponent does a fast expand, you're gonna want to be whoring drones after making maybe a few lings to fend off scout and some harassing zealots. You try to saturate all three of your bases in preparation for what the enemy is going to do. Of course, the situation is always different, but you will generally want to have 2-3 control groups of lings out and 2-4 sunkens at each exposed base by the time his +1 speedzeal rush arrives (if he's going that route).

Although the Mondragon build is still viable, it is rarely used nowadays.

If you're going for a more tech oriented route you might want to place the third hatchery inside your own natural or main instead of another base. As well, some maps such as Python sometimes warrant this as the 3rd base is quite far away and a bit more difficult to defend. Always make a well-considered decision when placing hatcheries!

3 Hatch Before Pool

Essentially the same build above, but getting 3 Hatches before laying down a pool.

12 Hatch (to natural)
14 Hatch (send out at 12 or 13 depending on map)
13 Pool

An extremely risky build that can pay off if you survive, as you will have extra drones. Generally the risk outweighs the benefits, however, as this build can be an auto-loss. Personally I never do this build anymore, as 2 gate pressure from a Protoss who was originally fast expanding is a good counter.

9 Overpool Speed

9 Overlord
9 Pool
8 Drone
9 Drone
10 Extractor
9 Drone
Lings (make 6-12), Zergling speed simultaneously and pull drones off gas.
16/17 Hatchery (to natural)

This is one of the builds I have learned from watching Mondragon replays. This build is one of my favorites! There are so many things that this build is useful for. When making 10 lings, running past a fast expansion is an extremely effective way to get inside their main with 4-6 lings and picking off tons of probes with good micro. However, it is only applicable on certain maps (BLUE STORM), other maps are possible but ramped maps can be blocked with 2-3 probes to prevent runby.

Another use of the build is just making 6 lings to kill scouting probe, forcing them to pull probes in case you do the 10 ling run-by and in the meantime, you just stay outside their base, prevent future scouts and do any tech route you want. This build is extremely well-rounded with aggression and macro, and its ability to prevent scouting makes it a very formidable build indeed.

The best thing about this build is it will force you opponent to make cannons earlier than normal, however, you're just going to run past and pick off as many probes as you can. If he pulled probes to try to defend, all the better really, it's still not too hard to get past anyways. If you pick off just a few probes, you're going to have a nice advantage because the entire time you're picking off probes, you're forcing him to micro against your lings with probes, reducing mining time and he's also losing probes. You, in the meantime, will just be mass mass mass whoring drones if you're going to do the macro route, giving you a nice solid lead.

*The other variation of the overpool is where you don't get speed. It is economically better. You will get 6-8 zerglings and attempt a runby before both cannons warp in on a short map, or just attempt to stop scouting. Both Protoss and Zerg will be able to be economically good if you do this build, but overpool will help you deal with some sorts of cheese. I personally do overpool without speed more, because overpool with speed can set you back if your zerglings do little damage and die off.

9 Overpool FPVoD
Mondragon Replays
Alternative Mondragon Replay download
For the Mondragon replays, he does the 9 overpool speedling on Blue Storm almost all the time, so check those out!

12 Pool

Chill says this is a useless build, but when you’ve got that pesky probe there denying you from putting down a hatchery and you either:
a) don’t want to send another drone and micro it out OR
b) don’t want to misplace hatch OR
c) don’t want to place hatch at other expansion
then going 12 Pool is a possible alternative.

12 Pool
11 Gas
Drones until 350 HP of spawning pool
6 lings to deny scouting, Zergling Speed

Several nice follow-ups are available with a 12 Pool, such as 2 hatch build or double den hydra break build (or single den) which are not entirely applicable to a 12 Hatch build because you cannot deny scouting. This makes 12 Pool a viable choice in terms of when you want to switch it up. Do not use it as a standard build however, as it is a poor choice.

6 Pool / 7 Pool

6 Pool
5 Drone
6 Overlord
6 (3 pairs of lings)
Drones
7 Pool
6 Drone
7 Overlord
7 Drone
8 (3 pairs of lings)

These two builds are made to counter the FE by coming before cannons arrive. Hopefully they will not see you doing this, as probe blocking is an efficient way to block this. These builds are slightly better than 4 or 5 pool because 4 or 5 pool puts you much more behind economically.

Rarely are these builds used, so putting these into your bag of tricks can catch a Protoss very off guard, especially if they only make 1 cannon or Nexus first. The key thing is to dodge imba probes and pick them off 1 by 1, or target cannon + pylon if he has not scouted you and pulled probes.

6 Pool is a bit more useful as you'll have perfect ling timing as cannons finish, with 7 pool it depends on the map. After you attack, make sure that you begin massing drones to try and recover your economy after making him spend a lot on defense and lose a lot on economy as well.

When attempting a 6 pool, you only want to make 6 zerglings and then immediately resume drone production. 6 pool is not the same as a 4 or 5 pool where you must continue ling production and aim for heavy damage. With a 6 pool you aim to just get a few probes and screw up the enemy's timing. If you can kill more than 4 probes then you have solidified an early lead because as you are continually pumping drones your economy will be very sound; it is easily followed up with 3 hatch builds, and it's almost surprising how fast you can get three hatches up after a 6 pool. In some instances you can kill the enemy, but aim to pick off as many as probes as you can and you'll get a solid lead early in the game.

9 Pool Speed

9 Pool
8 Drone
9 Extractor
8 Overlord
8 Drone
6 Lings (make 6-12), Zergling speed and pull drones off gas.

A close relative of the 9 overpool speed, the 9 pool speed cuts lots of economy in order to get lings out faster. This build is more commonly used by Koreans, where they favor the extreme ends of the build order selection because of the advantages their mechanics will give them in terms of pulling the build off. All in all, an excellent build. My personal opinion on this build is that it is not as effective as a 9 overpool speed because it is a significant hit to your economy.

However, this build will make the Protoss play much more cautiously, and that's a big plus! Another plus is that if you only make 6 lings, this is the only build where Protoss, when doing an FE, is forced to go cannons first. In 9 overpool, it is possible to cut a few probes to get a nexus first (obviously doing that isn't too good either since your whole goal is to run past and kill probes when you're doing a 9 overpool) and 12 pool they can Nexus before cannons. 9 Pool will force Protoss to play much more defensively than normal.

9 Pool / 9 Overpool without speed

9 Pool
8 Drone
9 Overlord
Extractor trick for a tenth drone - not used if you want a hatchery immediately after zerglings
6 Lings
Drones
9 Overlord
9 Pool
8 Drone
9 Drone
10 Drone
6 Lings (make 6-12)
Hatchery when you have money

ALTERNATIVELY (slower lings, faster hatchery)

9 Overlord
9 Pool
8 Drone
9 Drone
10 Drone
10 Hatchery
6 Lings (make 6-12)

These two builds also have good uses - the purpose of the variations without speed is mainly to force Protoss to make 2 cannons before Nexus, while not really delaying yourself too much. Without speed, you force the cannons but don't put yourself economically behind if you don't do damage (you are not aiming to deal any damage with the zerglings). After the lings are made, you will keep them out of his choke and snipe any scouts, and later you can use them to fend off zealots. Against 9 overpool though, Protoss can Nexus before cannons if they cut probes. Both good builds.

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Follow-ups

This section will show the follow-ups to the various openers listed above. Details on why these builds are effective in which scenarios will be detailed in the adaptations section.

3 Hatch Speedling

Get gas earlier than normal, begin pulling drones off gas at 88 gas, get zergling speed. From there, mass pure lings.

This build is designed to take advantage of Protoss cannon placement in an FE or lack of defense (3 Hatch Speedling counters many builds if executed correctly). When utilizing this build, key things must be achieved:
1. Usually, since you’re not pumping drones, make 3rd hatch in main, not outside to expansion.
2. It is key to deny scouting. If the Protoss sees 18 speedlings, all he has to do is add some cannons + pull some probes and you’re screwed economically since you won’t be able to do any damage. To hide your build, place a majority of lings in a secluded spot (or inside main if you make a sunken in natural). If needed, make a sunken in natural to kill a probe if they come to scout.
3. Don’t let probes see you stop mining gas! If a smart Protoss sees this, he will immediately realize your plan. You must put drones on gas if he enters your base until you kill the probe, to mask that you are doing a different build.

3/4/5 Hatch Hydra

Another cannon break technique, generally much stronger but you must have the same principles as the 3 Hatch Speedling, it must be hidden! If cannons are added, you will not be able to do any damage. There is a limited window of opportunity to make this work before too many speed zealots appear, or dark templars, or high templars, all which can force your cannon break to do no damage.

Just like the 3 Hatch Speedling, if this build doesn’t work you are extremely behind, having to play very defensively. You have a lack of tech, economy and upgrades, making it extremely hard to come back in the game after a failed hydra attack.
Key things to note are to get speed first, then range. Some people like range first – which is viable, because you can snipe some buildings (gateway + forge being used to wall), but can’t micro very efficiently vs. zealots. Some people also attack with ling/hydra force as soon as range finishes, so they attack with speedlings and range only hydras, which is also a good idea but all of these attacks require game decision making and deciding whether you should attack or not.

3 Hatch Muta

This is a great build that can get you early map control. However, it is easily scouted and you'll have to play well to do significant damage. Cannons have low hp and sairs will be pwnt if you have good scourge micro.
Most Protoss will be able to scout it and react by adding cannons and more scourge, sometimes even 2 stargates or +1 or both. This makes it much harder, but you can still have good success. If their mineral lines are well defended, don't waste mutalisks' health on harrassing probes. Picking off pylons, stray units and useful, and you'll particularly want to focus on the gateway area so you can snipe the first templar that come out.

With the 3 Hatch Muta, you should generally have 3 hatches contained in 2 bases, so you can saturate your minerals, also you need two gases for this to be effective! Get a 4th hatchery after your spire plops down (place it at your third) and then mutas when the spire is ready. Gas should be added around the time your lair begins. The build will often cause Protoss to react with 2 stargates and +1 air weapons or cannons and more sairs off 1 stargate. See the below 3 Hatch Lair Den/Spire Follow-up for another variation.

Macro BEAST

With this, you’re going to be whoring drones like a maniac to get your macro beast style on. The build was outlined in the 3 hatch expand. This is great when you think you’re more solid mechanically and strategically than your opponent and have better chance at winning late game than risking early game. You get matching upgrades, superior tech and can later transfer into lurkers, as well as having up to 5 hatcheries extremely quickly for just AWESOME production and macro. Can transfer easily into Lurker/ling or hydras or Sauron.

You'll want to be a macro beast whenever you play. There is not a specific build for macroing except for builds that have been discarded like 7 hatch hydra/muta.

SquaLL Drop Style

A very risky type of style, in which low tech units (zerglings, hydras and lurkers) are continuously dropped in opponent’s mineral lines or bases, containing them and granting you map control. Must be careful to have excellent macro because drops are not too effective at reducing enemy army size, therefore after they fend off a drop it is highly likely they will go for a counter.

A cool thing to do here is fight fire with fire. Remember how Bisu uses dark templars to kill drones in the midst of a battle? You can do the same with lurkers – drop some lurkers behind mineral lines during a battle to score many probe kills. Watch some SquaLL replays to find out more!
SquaLL TSL Replays

3 Hatch Lair Den/Spire

Probably the best description of how to do this by my friend and teammate, sMi.lols, in his 5 hatch hydra/muta guide.

This is a build that Koreans love doing, it is extremely common in Korea in ZvP. This build involves doing 3 hatch expand (or 3rd hatch at nat, then 4th at expo) and starting to mine gas at about 17 supply. If you 12 hat, you will do 12 hatchery 11 pool 13 hatchery 12 gas and the gas will finish ~17 supply. This build is a very defensive macro build, so you're going to be whoring drones for a while. You make a few lings (about 6) to fend off probe scouts and zealot harrass, then mass drone. With first 100 gas, Lair is made. After Lair is made, a Hydralisk Den and Spire are made simultaneously (if you started with a pool first build, get den at about 50% - 75% lair completion, then spire after lair completes). You continue pumping drones and should have your second gas by the time Lair is started, and a few hydras to fend off corsairs.

Next, with your Spire complete, you make 4 scourge to kill the corsair and other possible ones that could come out. From there you have several options - 3/4/5 hatch hydra, mutalisks or lurker contain. As well, you begin researching overlord speed shortly after laying down the spire and den.

What will the Protoss do when he sees this? This will force him to play extremely defensively because he will not know which tech route you are going, making this build an extremely powerful one. The build also involves getting a nice economy - the only downfall is upgrades, but that's not too big a problem since you aren't getting many zerglings early on. Therefore since you've opened up all the tech routes, you can successfully (and easily) adapt to all Protoss builds. You should have about 5 hatches by the time your overlord speed completes (3 base) and as soon as overlord speed completes, consider getting drops. Many Protosses don't have sufficient defense at their base so you can do some real damage at their base. This build is one of my newest favorites, and can be transitioned into from any build and then transition to late / mid game very easily. It's great because you can force Protoss to play defensively, then deny them from expanding while doing major damage to their economy and taking advantage of an incorrect unit combination by adapting to that with your multiple tech tree. Basically most Korean ZvP replays / games you'll be seeing this build, so you can download any and find out how it works.

A different variation of this, that Jaedong and some other notable Zergs use is get a spire, make 2 pairs of scourge to
1. Kill the corsair
2. Scout inside the base, then use those to stop future drops / corsairs
If Jaedong sees reaver/sair or 2 stargates, he will get his hydra den and mass hydra with both upgrades, after range and speed are complete he gets his lurkers. He expands as his hydras are pumping, as well. If he doesn't see continued sair production, or no stargate, he will go mutas. Very effective build. In general, make hydra den accompanied with 1-3 evo chambers depending on economy as you slap down your 5th hatch.

This second variation is more used - as you will be able to macro much more than the second one and eventually have an army advantage over your opponent - if they scout your spire with their corsair, they will most likely continue sairs and make cannons - which you can counter by making just a few scourge and getting a hydra den later after lots of drones are made. This allows you to put yourself in the lead early on because they waste money of defense. If they don't have a Stargate (or opt not to make more corsairs) then you'll be able to go mutalisks and damage his economy (and be safe from +1 speedzeal as well).

Okay, as of October 23, 2008, ZvP has been changing rapidly in this direction! Protosses have been learning how to counter it much better with anti-Neo-Sauron builds like 4 gate 2 archon. [sTherefore the Den/Spire is a stronger build as of current; get both at the same time and transition into lurkers with speed overlords and scourge support to take map control. [/s]See the scouting section to see new ways to determine Protoss builds. I will try my best to update to fit the most recent trends as possible!

White-Ra vs Oversky - Korean Airforce ACE Progamer Oversky utilizes this build well to counter White-Ra's +1 speedzeal rush.
DrAgOoN vs AnyTime - Dragoon uses this build well after a transition from a 9 pool, pulling off a nice lurker contain and getting huge map control.
Jaedong vs StOrk OSL Finals
Bisu vs Jaedong
Bisu vs Jaedong(2)
sMi.lols ZvP
sMi.lols 9 pool transition into Korean ZvP style
Soo vs Spear
Superiorwolf vs B+ Toss (loss, but the build gave huge advantage early on. His late game was just too good compared to mine)
suPeriOrwOlf vs Louder[Light]

3 Hatch Lurker

This really isn’t a specific build, it’s more of a build where you just get lurkers a bit earlier than normal. It’s great to use on maps like Gaia or Rush Hour 3, since they need so many cannons to defend all their fronts, you can just put some lurkers behind their minerals and prevent any mining operations at that expansion. Lurkers also take advantage of certain Protoss builds.

Sauron

Rarely seen nowadays, this is a build where you mass tons of expansions on the theory that it will take too long for a Protoss to kill them all and by the time they can they will already have kicked in and you’ll be able to mass billions of low tier units and throw them continuously at them while slowly teching to Hive and expanding more with your map control. Take note to get all 3 upgrades, upgrades are crucial on masses of low tiered units!

Double Den Cannon Break

A great build when you use a generally weak build like a 12 pool. Other good builds for 12 pool are 2 hatch mutas and drop lurkers.

Another build I learned from watching Mondragon replays. He 12 pooled, 11 extractored and made 6 lings to kill scout and got speed. Pull three drones off gas after speed for a while and macro up while getting a 2nd hatchery. After a little saturation, return drones to gas and create 1 hydra den, with the second den added the next 50 gas (you are still making drones at this point, maybe add a sunken just in case to prevent scouting).

After the first den finishes, research speed and rally your 2 hatcheries to inside your main so the enemy doesn’t see you are massing hydras. Immediately begin hydra production after you begin research on range on your second den. You ideally should be pushing and cannon breaking with ~12 hydras and your original 6 lings, while pumping more hydras to reinforce. Very strong as it hits the opponent at a critical time in their FE. A variation of this is to only make 1 den, research range, then attack (you will have a few more hydras this way when you attack)

2 Hatchery builds – The 2 Hatch Mutalisks

Self explanatory. This comes before the corsair comes, allowing you to have a nice window to deal nice damage to the opponent. If you delayed them successfully with lings by killing many probes, pylons, buildings, etc., in a pool first, you will make this even more effective. The drawback is only having 6 mutas, but since you can kill probes easily anyways and continuously pump mutas, you should not have a problem. In this 2 hatch build, an extractor being added when spire is 50% done (and a 3rd hatch somewhere after the spire is startedl) will allow you to pump mutas / scourge continuously, and drones/lings when the 3rd hatch completes.

2 Hatchery builds – The 2 Hatch Lurker Drop

This is one of the most annoying things you can do to a Protoss. Getting a Lair and lurkers, getting drop research and slow dropping into their main can, effectively, destroy their main if they are unprepared. You, at the very least, should be able to net some probe kills or at least stop them from mining at one base for an extended period of time, and by ferrying more units up, hopefully you can take out some key tech buildings (templar archives, pylons powering gates) or the nexus itself. This will grant you nice map control because the Protoss needs to deal with your lurkers (unless they planned some all-in attack). Takes advantage of Protoss builds which get late observers.

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Scouting!

Scouting is ESSENTIAL in this matchup… if this matchup is all about adaptations, how can you adapt without seeing what to adapt to? Scouting is a huge foundation.
I like to send a drone to scoute at 12 if I have not spotted him yet with an overlord. Remember some scouting tips here, too!
1. On Python – if you are 12 o’ clock, you can spot a nexus without it seeing you, by placing your overlord here:

Place your overlord here

2. From 3 o’ clock to 12 o’ clock and from 9 o’ clock to 6 o’ clock you can check mineral counts to determine if the enemy is there (if the minerals are below 1500, then the enemy is mining there, thus you can assume he is there).
3. Also, checking scouting routes of probes also helps. As many Protoss send scouts at 8 supply, if the probe arrives early and your overlord didn’t see it (and you were traveling along a probe scout route) you can assume it’s from the opposite base.

Midgame becomes a little bit harder to scout because of the presence of the annoying dark templars patrolling expansions everywhere. They key is placing zerglings or overlords at or patrolling every base. You DO NOT, absolutely DO NOT want to the Protoss to expand. Too many times the Protoss expands up a ramp and cannons the ramp, and if you don’t scout it you can’t break it until mid/late game… giving the Protoss a huge advantage. SCOUT! Send out your first few lings to patrol expansions if you forget often, it’s absolutely crucial.
Having speedy overlords and scourge around shuttle paths is needed as well, you do not want storm / dark templar drops ruining your economy or raping your base.

My favorite thing to do is once I get the overlord speed upgrade and the threat of annoying, pesky corsairs is pretty much over, I'll take all the overlords I've grouped over my spores and send them to every expansion on the map, and then key chokepoints and such. This will give you excellent reconnaissance and deny the Protoss from trying to do anything secretive. It is very important to scout, so make sure you do it!

Some things you probably will want to know. Some people debate about whether or not to sacrifice an overlord or not to scout. My opinion on this is that it is situational, but many times if you haven't seen what they are doing yet you should sacrifice (and this applies for all matchups). Especially in ZvP, overlords are much more expendable and easily replaced than in other matchups. However, if you've already seen the following things, you can get your overlord out of their base before a corsair or dragoon comes:

3 Gateways and a Citadel (Stargate optional ; no second gas) - signifies a fast +1 speedzeal push. Delays tech slightly and is a strong attack. If you have the option, going mutalisks in this situation is nice as you can fend off the attack with lings and mutas and deal economic damage while taking map control.
1 Gateway and a Stargate (second gas if you can see it) - signifies a fast tech into reaver/sair or reaver/dt or maybe just fast storm (into a slightly delayed, but massive, archon/temp/zeal push). Regardless, going mutalisks is a very bad choice here. Go hydralisks or lurkers.
1 Gateway after Stargate, 2 Gateways after Archives begins - signifies a fairly balanced build and is highly popular. This is strong versus mutalisks because mutalisks will not keep map control for very long. All tech routes for you are viable; generally the Protoss will only make one corsair for scouting purposes. All have advantages and disadvantages. Mutalisks will have to pull back after dealing some damage, as the Protoss will counterattack. Hydralisks will have to face storms by the Protoss. Lurkers will force defensive play from you and give the Protoss map control for a period of time. It's your choice what to do here!
2nd Gas when Cybernetics Core begins, or any relatively fast 2nd gas - Although Protoss builds and timings for the 2nd gas are more abstract and depend on the player and their style, a fast 2nd gas will usually signify some kind of fast tech. Hydras is generally accepted to be the most safe build, you will want to consider getting a spore up and later in the game, a spore+sunk at every expansion (including main)

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This concludes the scouting section. Now, the part you have all been waiting for! The Protoss builds that you will encounter and how you need to adapt to them and react to what you see. Of course, many of the follow-ups listed above also force the Protoss to react to you, so as you should be learning… ZvP is a very back and forth matchup where whoever adapts to the situation better will be the victor. The matchup is extremely tactical and includes having superior scouting, army positioning, game decision making, as well as solid mechanics.

Adaptations Section – What You’ll See the Protoss Doing and How You Should React

Here are some common Protoss strategies that you will encounter during your lifetime as a Zerg Cerebrate and how you will defeat them.

Fast Expand into +1 Speedzeal Rush

Build Description:
This is probably the most common build you will see from a Protoss. The build allows them to transfer into any route they want, be aggressive early game and pressure/punish Zergs who macro too much and take an expansion while doing so.

Recognizing the Build:
How will you recognize this build? The basics of the build are this – The protoss fast expands, has a forge and gateway in front and the standard 2 cannons you’ll probably always see. The next thing is a gas and cybernetics core. The only real way to know when they are doing it for sure is when they are doing the build and you see it, which is when he adds 3-4 gateways and a citadel and begins researching +1. If you did not already catch that he was doing that build earlier, then you must immediately know now. That is the only concrete way you'll recognize the build, but you can also grasp some early signs. A hardcore +1 speedzeal push will be 3 Gateways and a Citadel (Stargate optional ; no second gas)

Countering the Build:
What are the counters to this powerful build? Even if you successfully defend against this and fend off the attack, he will have a 3rd expansion up in running. Well, let’s see… The first tip I have to give you is put one zergling at the expansion he will most likely expand to after moving out with zealots. This makes it so when he moves to expand with a probe, your zergling will prevent him from expanding and he will need to bring over a zealot in order to expand, severely delaying the expansion and also making it so that his cannons defending that expansion will be made later than normal, giving you the chance to attack it and prevent it after fending off the zealot rush. Now here’s the types of builds that counter a +1 Speedzeal rush!

3/4/5 Hatch Hydra
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What?! This build counters the +1 Speedzeal build? Of course. There is an opportunity where you have about 2 control groups of hydras and some lings with all your upgrades and you can wreak havoc before his +1 attack and speed finishes, possibly totally nullifying his chances at commencing a +1 Speedzeal attack (if you kill enough cannons / zealots / probes and possibly other buildings). If you find his defense to be good enough, try to target anything you can, like the forge, to prevent his +1 attack from finishing.

This is crucial to prevent his +1 because if you can’t deal enough damage, he will be ahead in upgrades and tech and economy, so try anything you can to even up the field. Once a large amount of zealots appear though, it will be harder for you to kill, and he will be sure to add Dark templars and/or high templars soon after, so there is a limited window of opportunity to pull this off!

3 Hatch Speedling / Double Den Cannon Break
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These are basically a counter to any Protoss who has insufficient scouting and bad cannon placement. Cannon Breaks in general counter all those types of Protosses – therefore these probably are not the best choice if you want to counter +1 Speedzeal specifically.

3 Hatch Muta
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This is not a very good counter imo… the mutas come just about when his zealots reach your base. The big problem with mutas is that they deal so little damage to zealots he can deal massive damage regardless – and by the time you clean up the attack he will have cannons everywhere and his third base up and running with defense.

3 Hatch Macro
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This is one of the nicest counters. It is the Mondragon-esque counter where you get 2-3 sunkens at each base that is out in the open as well as matching their +1 attack with +1 carapace and 2.5 control groups of zerglings. This is a very nice build because it will put you ahead if you can prevent him from getting an expansion and grant you map control as you can follow-up with a lurker contain or any other tech you want (or mass expanding and macroing like crazy).

3 Hatch Lair
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A very good counter as you'll be able to be offensive or defensive depending on the situation - if he has corsairs you'll be able to outmacro him with hydras later, putting him behind - if he doesn't have corsairs you're still safe since your mutas will be out way before he arrives and you'll have lings to block their path and after that you'll be able to damage his economy (your mutas can even attack him and then pull back to defend, that's how early mutas come out in this build). One of the nicer counters to +1, as you'll be able to gauge what you want to do based on the situation and in many cases force the Protoss to adapt to you in order to counter your tech.

2 Hatch builds
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These builds are very risky altogether, but they will be able to deal damage regardless of whether or not the Protoss chose +1 speedzeal or not.

Fast Expand into Sair/DT (Bisu Build)

Build Description:
A very hard strategy for the average Protoss player to pull off, the Bisu build (popularized, of course, by Bisu) requires the user to be very adept in macro / micro and extremely good at multitasking. This build punishes Zergs who overextend themselves and brings down even the most cautious of Zergs. This build is less commonly seen than the +1 speedzeal rush. The Bisu build utilizes getting a faster gas and less economy in return for faster tech and DTs – and after gaining map control they take an expansion.

Recognizing the Build:
This build generally does not get +1 as quickly as a +1 speedzeal rush, instead, you’ll see maybe 1-2 gates added and a fast citadel + templar archives. Check for 1 Gateway and a Stargate and a relatively early second gas. The easiest way to recognize the build is the corsair count. If the first corsair produced is immediately followed by a 2nd corsair, be prepared. Once the sair count continues increasing to about 3+ then you can assume a Bisu build (unless you see a robotics). Sair count should one of the biggest determinants here.

Countering the Build:
The most overall tip in this build is not to overextend yourself. Don’t make expansions all over the place, because they’ll just get destroyed by DT very quickly. 3 Hatch Muta isn’t the greatest choice as they’ll be able to scout it and also have many corsairs able to be coming. 3 Hatch macro isn’t too favored either because you won’t need the upgrades desperately, but the main thing is they’ll be able to have their 3rd up and you’ll be matching in bases (since you can’t expand with presence of dark templar for a while). You'll want to play it safe; have a spore at least at your natural and consider one spore and sunken at each base, including your main. Do not lose to a DT drop! Here are the builds that counter the Sair/DT build nicely:

3/4/5 Hatch Hydra (and variation)
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Why is this build effective? Several reasons. First of all, it will give you something to shoot the corsairs and allow you retake map dominance lost to Dark templars with speed overlords and hydras. The mobility is a huge plus. Also, consider how much gas the Protoss is using. DTs require lots of gas and so do corsairs, so will he have much gas left over for high templars to counter hydras?

This counter allows you to prevent him from expanding with the map control he planned to get from the DTs, as well as giving you several options (cannon break is fairly easy when not against HT, just don’t blindly charge in, check cannon count first! If he has an abundance of cannons, best not attack). The regular 3/4/5 Hatch Hydra build detailed in the Follow-ups section is ideal to cannon break, but you’ve only got about a 20 second window to attack before the first dark templar arrives.

That is why a macro variation is a bit more favored in this situation. Get more drones first, spore colony and sunken colony at every base (natural and 3rd) and play a bit defensively for a while. Also get a spore + sunk in your main during midgame in case of a DT Drop or sneak-in, much rather lose 2 drones – it will save you so much later. The macro also allows you to get upgrades and a Lair for speed overlords. Hydras are a great counter to the Bisu build.

2 Hatch builds
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These builds are very risky altogether, but they will be able to deal damage regardless of whether or not the Protoss chose sair/dt or not.

3 Hatch Speedling / Double Den Cannon Break
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3 Hatch Lurker
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Another great counter to the Bisu build. Wait, what? How do lurkers counter DTs? Well, look at it this way. First of all, as mentioned earlier, gas will be short for the Protoss. Second of all, since they chose to go fast templar archives with the stargate, will there be a fast robotics as well? Generally not, and even if there was, observers are quite gas heavy as well – therefore you can reestablish map control with your lurkers.

Lurkers are nice because you’ll be able to do some damage to their FE buildings and prevent them from expanding. It is crucial to not let them expand to somewhere else though, the main point of going Lurkers is to contain the Protoss in their base for a bit and if they can still get another expo, it’s pointless. Once you set up a contain, you’ll be able to nicely get some more expansions and macro up – but you’ve got to be careful when he finally pushes out that you have enough units to defend yourself.

Fast Expand into Sair / Reaver

Build Description:
The Fast Expand into Sair / Reaver has been proven a strong build by progamers like IntotheRainbow and Nal_rA. The build is seldom encountered nowadays, it requires very strong micro because losing reavers is devastating to a Protoss.

Recognizing the Build:
This build is almost just like the Sair / DT build, however you’ll see a robotics first and then of course, the Robotics Support (why does everyone add ‘bay’ to the end of that building name? I do it too, it seems natural, but it’s just Robotics Support afaik

) Check for 1 Gateway and a Stargate and a relatively early second gas. Sometimes they might even omit the added gateway! You’ll probably see a lot of sairs and that’s what makes this build so hard to deal with, the air dominance that Protoss establishes with his sairs. Sair count should one of the biggest determinants here.

Countering the Build:
I must admit, because this build is so rarely encountered nowadays, I’m not going to be entirely accurate in what I say – as I don’t face this build as often as other builds. The one theory, if I think I’m right at least, is that you expand enough based on the theory that
1) Reavers can’t kill Hatcheries extremely quickly, giving you time to bring your army to fend it off
2) By the time he assaults one base, you’ll have established macro and defense at another base
3) He’ll not be able to attack everywhere at once

So expanding a lot, in fact may seem extremely risky, but I would say it’s a nice thing to do because Protoss reavers are mobile, but are not extremely heavy damage dealers to take out expansions alone. In general, always be prepared to have drones to escape – also placing lings around the map on common shuttle paths is very useful – some people like to research burrow and that works too.
Put a spore at every expansion and maybe a sunk, just to slow down his reavers slightly for your hydras to get in position and stuff like that. Don’t let the Protoss expand either, remember zerglings patrolling expansions~!

In late game, your army should generally consist of devourers and scourge and hydras, devourers will pwn corsairs (get +1 armor on devourers!) and hydras will clean them up and kill reavers. Ultraling isn’t too great against a reaver army with some other Protoss ground support.

3/4/5 Hatch Hydra (and variation)
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Typically when doing this, you wanna macro up before massing hydras (as well as doing the expansion thing I mentioned earlier. Btw, if that is completely wrong, please tell me!) Hydras are great counters to reavers, because, although they die in huge clumps to reaver shots, you’ll have so many hydras it won’t matter, as well as being extremely mobile and able to shoot corsairs, these are a nice counter. You want to upgrade ranged attack of course, to increase the damage output.

Something people like to do is burrow hydras in clumps at shuttle paths, and when they see the corsairs (shuttle usually travels behind the corsairs), they unburrow the hydras and shoot down the shuttle. A pimp move, indeed, but it takes careful planning and detracts your main army size. Burrowing lings at key expansions and key shuttle paths is more than enough, if you need burrow at all.

Making a few scourge is nice because if they leave their shuttle undefended for just a second, you can snipe it down.

The major mistake that I, personally, made at the D+ level was engaging Protoss defense. Protoss with cannons and reavers is unbreakable with hydras – do not engage because you’ll waste your entire army 99% of the time. You just want to macro up and keep them contained and prevent them from doing damage to you.

2 Hatch builds
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These builds are very risky altogether, but they will be able to deal damage regardless of whether or not the Protoss chose sair/reaver or not.

3 Hatch Speedling / Double Den Cannon Break
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Lurkers
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I don’t really know if this is a good choice – you can’t do any damage other than killing a few FE buildings, and won’t be able to get the map control you would get had you gone hydras.

Double Gate Rush

Build Description:
Ah, the two gate rush. A very particularly annoying rush, in my eyes. It’s a very strong build, ESPECIALLY on ladder and ESPECIALLY vs. lower level players. The first probe and zealot will come before your 12 hatch finishes if you 12 hatched, and will really screw you up economically (force you to make 1-3 sunkens and instead of massing drones, making zerglings) while the Protoss economy isn’t touched significantly. With good micro, it can be extremely troublesome to hold off this Protoss attack. As long as they deal some damage by forcing sunkens and lings, they can come out a bit ahead. You must react perfectly to not get behind. The Protoss then often makes an expansion after 2 gating if sufficient map control is established (many zealots outside of your choke, anyone?)

The biggest thing is when you try to place your sunkens, they will block with probe and zealots, and continually pump zealots and rally them to you.

Recognizing the Build:
You generally won’t scout this build before they start attacking unless you 9 drone scout or they are next to you and you see them with an overlord.

Countering the Build:
This is all situational and depends on your opener.

9 Overpool / 9 Pool
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You really shouldn’t have a problem dealing with this, in fact, you should actually be able to pressure them and possibly kill them (assuming 9 pool, 9 overpool will just be pressure) If you want to just begin macroing, make about 10-12 lings with overpool and being macroing, you don’t need an over excessive amount of lings, just check his zeal count. When he sees your 9 pool or 9 overpool, generally he won’t pump over 4 zealots because he’s going to try desperately to get his economy back

12 Pool
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This is a 50/50 against the build. For one, you’ll have lings faster, but you’ll have sunkens later, so you’ll probably have to mass lings for a while until he stops zeal production. One tip is to not engage his zealots when you don’t have enough lings, you want a 1:4 zealot:ling ratio in small numbers like this, at least! Just allow your natural hatch to take some hits and don’t worry, it’s got a lot of health and later in the game you can morph it into a Lair to increase its HP. Instead of engaging the zealots at your natural head on, try to pick off reinforcements that try to arrive, so you’ll be able to slowly build up your ling numbers.

Make sure he doesn’t block your ramp with 2 zeals and probe though, that is annoying.

12 Hatch
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As soon as you spot the zealots coming your way, immediately send 2-3 drones and try to lay 2 sunkens even though he’ll be trying to prevent you. Make sure you can get those lings out, and just like the 12 pool, you don’t really want to engage the enemy units straight on unless a zealot or two strays out of the main group. You’ll have sunkens up, so try to defend them, but you can also just go for the reinforcements as well.

1 Gate Tech

Build Description:
This build is an old school build, but is still DEFINITELY applicable nowadays in modern ZvP, especially because newer players will not know how to react to this and also some people will blindly expand without scouting. The 1 Gate Tech almost always gets 2-4 zealots for defense and possibly a dragoon (to kill overlords near the base and for more defense). This is followed up by dark templar tech and a sair, in which the Protoss moves out and creates cannons and expands. A nice build, unfortunately it has major weaknesses.

Recognizing the Build:
Easy enough to recognize, you’ll see 1 gate and a fast gas

Countering the Build:
This build has several nice counters to it, and they will be detailed here. Of course if you did a 9 pool or something, it’s almost an auto-win.

3 Hatch Speedling
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This build definitely works! Especially when you don’t realize their going for tech and in return you’re not ready to deal with it, just mass 2.5 control groups of speedling and you’ll be able to break up a ramp with 3-4 zealots. From there, keep making lings and just destroy the rest of his base, I’ve found that even when they get a DT out, you can still do so much damage, running around, splitting up lings to kill probes, nexus, templar archives and pylons powering gateways, this is one of the easiest ways to kill a Protoss doing 1 gate tech.

In preparation for the first corsair, if you have extra money make a spore, and if you don’t, just hide the overlords you have and make more because you know you’ll lose some. Corsairs kill overlords horrendously slowly so you should be fine, of course if you don’t break up the ramp you are SCREWED.

2 Hatch builds
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This is in particular quite strong against 1 gate tech. Lurkers will come out, preventing them from expanding and you can break their ramp, and it will take them quite a while to get the robotics facility in order to see your lurkers. Of course, they can add a cannon at their ramp, but being able to delay their expansion is enough. If they push out earlier than you expected, try to delay cannons with lings and then go in with the lurkers to make him cancel. Mutas are also very nice because he will be forced to delay his expo by making cannons and more sairs, as well, and you can do tons of damage.

Macro and hydras
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Basically you get a few hydras and macro up and you can have a third base (you should have an overlord there and some defenses, or a spore and sunken) Later you will be able to do anything and still be ahead because unless he did damage, he’s behind economically for getting the later expansion.

A nice transition to this is Sauron, because he will have a very very low amount of units for a period of time, where you can just make units nonstop and slowly eat away at his defenses. Of course, all the other transitions are awesome too, and you’ll be able to play standard ZvP from there just with you a bit ahead.

Protoss Cheese! Cannon Rush and Proxy 2 Gate!

In general, these are most hurtful when doing a 12 hatch, so I will only explain how to defend with a 12 hatch.

Proxy 2 gate you’ll be able to defend by making a sunk at home and using stacked drones to defend and using some lings to defend. Also, sending 2-3 lings to enemy to own their main since they won’t have any defense will insure you win if you can defend enough. If you’re ballsy enough, try what Jaedong did: Jaedong Proxy Gate Defense

Against a Cannon rush, get a sunken up and that’s pretty much it, maybe 2 lings. Lings can’t really do much other than get killed or prevent more cannons, the sunken will outrange the cannons and kills cannons very quickly (40 damage to 20 damage) and has more HP. If not, you can be safe and make the sunken in range of powering pylon to kill the cannon (but make sure Protoss can’t make another pylon uncontested, because then you might lose your hatchery).

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Midgame Tactics – Engaging the Protoss Army

In ZvP, generally Protoss Ground > Zerg Ground in midgame, and Zerg Ground > Protoss Ground in late game. Therefore, midgame must be a time where you focus on getting to late game with the things you need – generally you want to deny them expansions as I’ve said throughout the guide and the biggest thing is hold and secure 4 gasses (3 gasses works, but will not be able to pump as many ultraling and you’ll have to rely on more defiler play to gain map control). Midgame is probably where Zerg is the most vulnerable in ZvP, so there’s got to be a section on this. To read more about defensive and offensive maneuvers, check at The Art of ZvP by ZerG~LegenD.

However, do not be scared of engaging the Protoss army - there are times when it is necessary to trade off armies - and also certain Zerg playstyles also have a strong midgame (3 Hatch Lair) although generally you're going to want to keep engagements at a minimum unless you are favored in the battle (tactical positioning, army numbers, upgrades). Your main goal is to secure expansions and play defensively, but at the same time keep an eye out for Protoss expansions and keep lings at all expansions - therefore it is crucial to not engage the Protoss army when not required because you'll lose defense for your morphing expansions and also lose offense for attacking the Protoss expansions (and we know how troublesome it is once a thousand cannons get up everywhere, it would take too many casualties midgame to take that out).

Defensive Maneuvers

First of all, the most important goal is to set yourself up for late game – therefore you need the expansions and make sure you can keep them. An almost invincible way to defend bases is Sunk / Lurk / Spore or Sunk / Lurk / Scourge – at least until your main army can get there and clean up the mess. Why is sunk/lurk/spore or sunk/lurk/scourge so effective? Lurkers will destroy zealots, while spore/scourge will kill observers granting lurkers invisibility and sunkens will deal nice damage to dragoons. In the picture above, the Protoss started with 2 high templars (storm), 7 dragoons (range) and 10 zealots (speed, +1) as well as 2 observers. The Zerg had 4 sunkens, 2 spores and 4 lurkers. In the end, the Protoss lost all but 2 dragoons and the zerg lost 2 sunkens and 1 lurker - which just shows why engaging a defense like that is futile. Many lower level players will do this as a huge mistake and lose their entire army to a small (but powerful) defense. Another way to defend bases is just have 4-5 sunkens, delaying the enemy until your units can get there (usually that’s when you’ve got huge surplus).

Next, you have to be extremely wary of templar storm drops or DT sneak drops. Place 2-4 scourge patrolling likely shuttle paths and you’ll be able to protect yourself much easier. Also, I already stated this but as a reminder – put at all your expansion mineral lines at least 1 sunken and 1 spore – this way drops will take casualties and, as Chill would refer to it, dark templars will not be able to “go to town” in your base, rape all your stuff and display a “clinic” of how to destroy Zerg bases.

Expanding. How will you expand? A cool way to expand is to take a natural of a base – and once you’ve done that and gotten defenses at the natural, you’re free to take the main base of that natural without adding as much defense.

Then you've got the macro. Some people say, Zerg has got the easiest macro, because they can build up 3 larvae and have less production facilities. Other say Zerg has the hardest macro, because you have to decide between building drones or building an army, a hard game decision that is different in all situations. However, it stands to fact that even though you can let yourself have 3 larvae built up, you need to macro at all times! Don't let a single larva go wasted, always be making units. This applies to late game as well of course!

Offensive Maneuvers

Engaging the Protoss army straight on is typically not a good idea unless you have a better army than his – however several things can make your less advantageous army deal much more damage. To engage the Protoss army, army positioning is needed. You absolutely must flank, or else storms will rip apart your army, like this:

Ouch…

As crescendo wrote in his PvT guide on how to flank –

BluzMan sort of summarizes this very quick means of getting your units spread out:

"A2.......
........B
A1.......

Now, you don't just A-move your army to B, but first order in to move to A2. While moving, your army formation changes from a blob to something more resembling a line. Then, before your troops reach the destination, A-move dragoons to B. The difference is tremendous."

Another way is just to have all your units in position in anticipation for enemy movement, in which you can 1a2a3a into them.

Also, a key thing to also do is bring scourges and overlords with your troops. Most protosses only have 1-3 observers accompanying their army, so picking them off will delay him so much more and allow you more time to get to late game.

A few key things here are if you have mutas, fly above the opposing army and pick of high templars. Templar sniping is key because it will weaken the Protoss offensive so much. Zerglings and hydras are also useful to pick off high templar, by sneaking around from the back or something like that to get the vulnerable templar because they are slower than the rest of the army.

A cool thing to do is also mid-tech transitioning. What I mean by this is in the middle of one follow-up, you switch to another, forcing the Protoss to need to play defensively as he'll have the wrong unit combinations. For example, a good thing to do is start off with 3/4/5 hatchery hydralisks and, in response, Protosses will generally be making many zealots and high templars. Then you'll fly in with 11 mutas and snipe high templars, make him run back to his base, and if he doesn't have cannons, you can end the game right there. If not, you'll be granted a huge advantage by delaying his army and granting yourself full map control. Hydras -> lurkers works well too, and you can use leftover hydras to pick off observers! There are other combinations as well, just use your imagination and put yourself in the Protoss' shoes.

In conclusion, offense isn’t too easy in midgame because you can lose more than you win quite easily and your army can be decimated. It’s hard to destroy cannoned bases without the help of same late game units, which will be explained next!

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Lategame Tactics – Crippling the Opponent… for the win

This is the moment where you’ll break out of your shell and begin playing offensively usually. Hopefully you have at least 4 gasses and you’ve been keeping up with your opponent the entire game and matched upgrades. You’ll have those amazing 5/3 ultras and 3/3 lings, and those awesome defilers with plague and swarm. With 3 armor, lings no longer take only two shots from photon cannons, but a WHOPPING 3 shots! Amazing. This will increase there ability to act as ninjas to destroy bases much more. 2-3 ultras and 12 lings can destroy a base, and add a defiler onto that army and you’ve got an almost unstoppable base killing machine, even if they have defenses of HT and DT.

So here’s where you come in, you want to slowly weaken the Protoss. Protoss decreases in their strength compared to you in late game quite a bit, unless they are adept at using spellcasters like dark archons. My favorite trick to do, is that when you’re taking out a base and their army is coming to save it, quickly focus fire on the nexus and take it out. Taking out the Nexus is more crucial than killing a few cannons, because it will destroy his income and devastate his economy.

At this point, drops become amazing. You will drop in their base, take out a bunch of their production facilities, and with your amazing macro and regenerative abilities, you’ll quickly be able to win the game if you’ve played well just by getting 200/200 over and over again and continuously ripping apart the Protoss piece by piece, like this:

For the swarm!!! (I know you guys know where this from but I like watching it :D)

If you didn't know, the above .gif was from Julyzerg vs TheRock on Ride of the Valkyries where July went for a Sauron build. But generally that's what it'll look like late game no matter what if you've done well :D

Spellcasters

On Defilers!!! Ahhh... defilers, I just love them! They are useful in every single aspect. Because of consume, they are probably one of the if not the most powerful spellcaster in the game (but everything is balanced, stupid high templar and science vessel). Plague is just SOOOOO useful I can't even tell you, it will weaken the Protoss army so much they'll melt like butter in your attack. I like to just send a ling to scout where they are, send a defiler and plague them then run away. Dark swarm is also just so useful. Not only because it nullifies ranged attacks (dragoons) but because it reduces the archon damage to only splash, so a 30+9 damage archon would only do about 5 damage!

The other alternative is queens. They are severely underused and can be used midgame or late game. Some people like to just get a queen's nest to get one queen and constantly parasite the enemy army. It's quite cheap for a permanent scout

Remember, when you parasite, parasite really expensive units, like high templar or archons. If you really want to, ensnare is extremely useful, but because of Queens having to regenerate mana unlike Defiler's being able to consume, you need quite a few queens and have to check on them to see when energy is ready. Broodling is a bit too expensive in terms of upgrading and energy cost to take out one unit (ht of course... what else would you take out). Overall the queen is a unit that has its uses, but is not as useful as the defiler.

As such, I'd like to elaborate more on the queen. The queen has several inherent advantages over the defiler, and yet many disadvantages. The queen's useful spells, parasite and ensnare, are both extremely cheap (and the queen itself is cheaper than a defiler in terms of gas). Defiler, however, has the best spells which are plague and dark swarm. Let's analyze the differences between these two spellcasters. We can liken parasite to plague and ensnare to dark swarm. Parasite permanently damages their army because you will know their positions at all times and be able to prepare based off of that, with good flanks, counterattacks and just general knowledge of army movements. Plague also keeps their army damaged over the time the Protoss live. Dark swarm and ensnare are both great temporary spells that can vastly change the outcome of a battle. Ensnare greatly reduces DPS and dark swarm totally nullifies powerful archons and the many dragoons a Protoss player must have. We can see that defiler obviously has more useful spells, as ensnare might not be as useful as dark swarm when you have a heavy gas late game Protoss army. But what are some advantages to a Queen?

Queen's are more mobile, they won't limit your army movements and can get to a battle faster. You get a permanent scout and casting spells with them is very easy. Defilers, on the other hand, are slow, fragile (not flying) and have harder to cast spells (less range, dark swarm harder to cast, etc.) However, defilers have consume, while queens will have to wait for mana meaning you'll have to constantly keep tabs on them to see when they're ready (although with 2 queens you should be able to pull of constant ensnares when you need them, as ensnare is a cheap 75 mana). Make your own choice on which is better. Defiler is more often used, but I really want to test the viability of queens. If you want to discuss more about queens, direct them to Empyrean's thread about queens, Queens in the mid-late game ZvX.

Protoss Late-Game Unit Combinations

Sometimes Protoss like to get annoying and make 10,000 corsairs and try to kill all your ovies, just get some spores and protect them – you may need some hydras to supplement your army at this point because if they go DTs and mass mass mass sair then you’re going to have some trouble engaging the army with no detection. Also when you see that starting to begin, it’s also a good idea to begin morphing your greater spire to get +1 armor devourers to take care of those pesky corsairs.

The second thing that Protoss love to do is switch around their unit combinations, especially ones that are powerful versus ultralisks. You'll see a lot of Protoss look for some alternatives. Some Protoss like going mass Archons - an extremely powerful unit that deals massive damage, can easily take out undefended expansions quickly and matches the ultralisk (archon beats ultralisk one on one with full ups on both, as well as having splash damage) and zerglings that will accompany the ultralisks. The weakness of archons is their ranged attack - they don't do damage except for splash under dark swarm. You will have to learn to be proficient in dark swarm to effectively deal with archons, once you can pop some dark swarms wherever he goes, you nullify his archon strength's and render his army quite useless.

Another unit combination that Protoss like to go is reavers. Reavers, again, are extremely powerful units, and as well as being powerful they are extremely mobile in shuttles as well as having tons of damage and defensive capabilities. Many times you will see a Protoss cannoning up a crucial expansion, putting gateways in front of the cannons and reavers behind. In these cases, breaking that expansion with ultraling is almost impossible.

Reavers kill your zerglings quickly and heavily damage your ultralisks, you absolutely cannot allow reavers to build up because they do damage under swarm and such, so you have to minimize their numbers. First things first, you want some scourge. Sometimes you can catch the shuttles off guard and net some free kills, but it's unlikely as you get in higher ranks. However, in the midst of a battle, sending in the scourge to take out the shuttles is extremely beneficial. If you win the fight, the reavers can't get away, this is why it forces the Protoss to run or try to fight it out, either way he's going to lose a crucial part of his army. Even if you can't win the fight, it will delay him for an extremely long period of time because he'll need to wait for shuttles so he can actually move faster than a snail's pace.

The second thing is hydras with upgrades. In my opinion a few of these mixed in an ultraling army will be extremely helpful as you can take out shuttles and corsairs and also target reavers when your melee (ultralisks and zerglings) units cannot.

The last way is to determine whether their unit combination is effective against air. If you see a lot of high templar, zealots and reavers, it could be a good time to go for mutas, because you can easily take out high templar and reavers as long as you dodge storms. In this stage of the game, you'll probably see more dragoons however, but mutalisks, of course, being small units, take only half damage. Therefore as the dragoons engage the rest of your army (it is more cost effective for him to target you ultralisks and lings, as well as AI default selecting to attack strongest unit) you can go in and snipe reavers and other crucial units.

An oldschool build involves using reaver/goon, it is a very powerful build that you may not recognize, but it is all in all a very effective build, however it is easily countered with just masses upon masses of units (low tier units, mutaling or mutahydra) mutalisks will be able to take out reavers and soak up damage while your upgraded zerglings or hydralisks deal the damage. Remember, it's all about looking at unit combination, because if he has lots of corsairs or too many archons, you obviously can't go mutalisks very easily.

Next, we've got the famous arbiter. An annoying unit, it is sometimes accompanied by mass corsairs so you can't get any overlords there to see the invisible units. Remember the arbiter takes FOREVER to build, so picking off these units are good and fairly easy with scourge if it is along, otherwise hydras and sometimes needed. If it gets to the point where the arbiters are almost untouchable, it is very hard to deal with but is possible with plague. Arbiters are pretty much just an addition to the midgame army, but of course with the cloaking and stasis / recall abilities, arbiters are extremely useful in increasing the effectiveness of the Protoss army. Therefore it is hard to deal with and requires you to not let him build up too many arbiters for it is like ZvT with science vessels, only he doesn't have as many but they are harder to kill. Against arbiter you generally keep the same unit combination but try to flank more so the arbiter can't get away, and use plague to reveal units and severely damage them.

Now we come onto the carriers. Lots of Protoss may switch to carriers, however I find if they switch to carriers late game, it's not useful at all because you'll have so much stuff to deal with it that it's not even funny. Because he's going carriers, he's sacrificing his ground army strength, therefore you can actually do a timing attack as well and try to take out his expansions, reducing his economy to tatters. From there, you should already have defiler tech, in which you can do a combination of hydra with dark swarm and plague on the carriers while you tech to devourers to supplement that army. The devourers can attack the interceptors or the carriers, it really doesn't matter because you'll have other units coming in to kill them shortly thereafter anyways (scourge, hydra). Hopefully your plagues allow you to pick them off easily until the Protoss is dead.

Last of all we've got the rarely used dark archon. If Protoss were only adept enough to use spellcasters like these more, they could have a bit more success late game. Dark archons are extremely effective, their feedback able to kill defilers easily before spells are casted, and the maelstrom that can easily catch up 6 ultras and many lings and force them to be vulnerable for several seconds. Therefore the dark archon is a very useful unit to the Protoss, but it takes them a lot of skill to use it and its very rare to see them use dark archons, especially with the less microintensive alternatives. You're still going to be going ultraling for the most part, just flank better to reduce the chance of getting your whole army maelstromed + stormed + owned. Also not engaging the enemy but playing a war of attrition by picking off expansions through drops or sneaks is a nice way to win as well, as later you'll just be able to win with mass forces. Lots of protosses will go Dark Archon in response to mass air from Zerg though, as maelstrom can catch a whole stack of air and then a few storms and all your units will pop.

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Questions!

These are real questions asked by people and I tried to answer them the best that I could.

Q. When I play 3 Hatch speedling like you said in your guide, I think that actually going third hatchery before gas is way better than getting gas before a third hatch. Why? When I go that fast gas he becomes suspicious why I am getting gas so quickly, and he expects 2 hatchery lair and speedling as well so he usually add cannons at his choke even if he is not sure about speedlings. Going third hatch first makes him think that I am going standard 3 Hatch gas build, then I kill his probe and pull off those drones from gas. I generally do something like 2.5 control groups of ling before I attack and generally in this time speed completes with my build; with your build this speed completes way earlier and I cannot macro so many lings like in my build. Maybe my approach is bad; maybe I get your point but I am just asking. What do you think about that?

A. [i]3 Hatch speedling is a build centered upon timing - you've got a limited window of opportunity to get those lings out and attack him when he's unprepared. By getting the gas later, the Protoss is more likely to have his entire choke walled off with the +3-4 zealots he will have from the slower gas and speed, which is why the gas is crucial to get early so you can attack as soon as you have about 2.5 control groups when speed finishes (and when he only has 1-2 zealots).

Q. What about going 2 Hatch Tech even when I open with a 12 hatch? I know that this is difficult to hide that your doing something suspicious. But, I think that he still will not know what I am up to... you know, he might think "OMG he is going to do superfast muta!" when I am going lurker or even hydra break.

A. To answer your question on the 2 Hatch build with hatchery first opener (12 Hatch), it really depends on the skill level of the opponent. First of all, a high ranked player won't even lose his probe until you reveal the tech route you're going (unless you feint, which would be nice) - but even a lower skilled player, if he knows Starcraft well he will see the 2 hatcheries and immediately know fast tech - which the real counter he has to do is that even if he can't keep his scout alive - cannon up everywhere. Because with a 2 hatch build you will not be focusing on economy - his economy will be far superior to yours if you do not deal sufficient damage (which is the goal of a 2 hatch build) which is why for Protoss, turtling is the counter. Even then, some players can judge just based on gas count what you are doing (no second gas is most likely very fast hydras). Therefore that is why I believe opening pool first will help you deny the scout from the beginning so they don't even realize you're doing the 2 hatch build.

Q. I'm confused about 3 Hatch Lair follow-up...?

A. Check my discussion with w3jjj (smi.lols) on page 4, 5, and 6

Q. About how many lurkers would be "critical mass" vs zeals?

A. Hmm... well there is not really a critical mass of lurkers against zealots because no Protoss will go pure zealots of course, there will be dragoons and templars, archons, etc. But otherwise, zealots really take huge damage once you get about 4-6 lurkers (and thus die very quickly), however a competent Protoss will run past your lurkers and then attack with zealots, minimizing
splash damage.

Q. What are your hotkeys? What is suggested?

A. I don't remember where I got these hotkeys, but you're going to definitely need to use hotkeys so make sure you get them down! Focus purely on using hotkeys in your games to get the hang of them, they will help immensely! I think my hotkeys are the same as sAviOr's or some other famous Zerg, but I'm not sure at all. And remember, you don't have to copy off anyone! Do what's comfortable for you and what you like best! The units assigned to the hotkeys are assigned in what order they would be during a standard game for me.
1) Scouting drone, army
2) First overlord, mutalisks, overlord
3) Second overlord, scourge+overlord, army
4) Spawning Pool, Spire / Hydralisk Den, army
5) First hatchery, army
6) Second hatchery, army
7) Third hatchery, army
8) Fourth hatchery
9) Fifth hatchery
0) Units I need to keep track of (spellcaster, scourge, drops, etc.)

Q. One question, will this help me destroy target USA WCG champs?

A. No... but hopefully it will help you get set on the path to A+ Zerg!!!

Q. Who is Superiorwolf?

A. I'm a Zerg who frequents TL.net forums - first making my way into the Starcraft scene after being inspired by Tasteless to make commentaries. As of now, I am a C+ Zerg (possibly higher, I have not yet been able to play much iCCup recently) and with a higher ZvP rank than my other two matchups, ZvZ and ZvT.

Q. Why did Superiorwolf make this guide?

A. There are several reasons that I made this guide. For one, the community at teamliquid.net is just awesome! I have to thank them so much for their leniency during my bad times, their kindness and willingness to help, as well as the community contributions that have been so nice and good for following the progaming scene. This guide is to give a little back to the community, but it is still little for what teamliquid.net has given me. Secondly, there was just a day that I was extremely bored and wanted to do something to do, and this is what happened.

Q. Why a ZvP guide?

A. To me, ZvP must be the important matchup to the amateur player or foreigner. The huge amounts of Protoss on ladders like iCCup really makes ZvP one of the first matchups you'll learn and one of the most important. For me, this is why my ZvP is much more competent than my other two matchups. I also feel that beginners should learn this first to kick start their way into the habits of laddering (although it is important to learn them all, of course). My ZvP is way above my other matchups due to the huge amounts of Protoss, so much that I consider it possibly B-/B level as I, during my 2008 WCG USA Regional Qualifiers run, played B level Protosses and won. I don't mean to brag though, and I'll have to play more to see what the actual rank is.

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In Conclusion…

Hopefully this guide has given you a better understanding of the ZvP matchup and will kick start your beginning to becoming a powerful Zerg Cerebrate. A few replays and other misc. things you can check out will help you as well.

I really hope you liked this guide, it is 20 pages on Microsoft Word with standard margins and 12 font Times New Roman, and hopefully you found it helpful! It was not all I expected it to be, I was hoping to have more replays and VODs for you guys to watch but I’m very bad at digging those up (and lazy) and I didn’t really ask questions (but hopefully people can correct me where I’m wrong). But overall I had fun making this and hope you had fun reading it!

Update Log

Version

1.0
-Guide posted on June 10, 2008

1.1
-9 Pool speedling opener added
-More midgame / lategame tactics added
-Additional scouting tips added
-OVER NINE THOUSAND (words)

1.2
-Late game adapting to Protoss unit combination added in lategame tactics
-Successful guide, edit in intro
-Some edits and corrections made

1.3
-3 Hatch Lair Spire/Den Follow-up added, with replays and VODs
-12,000+ words

1.4 (August 7th, 2008)
-Fixed incorrect passages
-More information on the 3 Hatch Lair build
-Added advice on the Midgame section
-Added 9 pool / 9 overpool without speed builds
-Added Questions section
-13,000+ words

1.5 (October 23, 2008)
-Updated many sections (fixed grammar, errors, etc.)
-Added a new part of the scouting section (how to identify Protoss strategies)
-Fixed incorrect builds, added more information (6 pool, 9 overpool w/o speed, 3 hatch den/lair)
-Tried to cater guide to more recent trends in modern ZvP (3 hatch den/lair, ways to identify Protoss strategies)
-Hotkeys in FAQ (my personal hotkeys)
-Elaboration on Queens (queens or not?)
-14,500+ words

1.6 (June 21, 2009)
-Updating out of date information

1.7
-Under construction (need to fix incorrect passages and go more in-depth in some subjects, also need to add VODs, replays, etc. Give suggestions please

)

9500+ TSL Ladder Replays
9 Overpool FPVoD

Replay pack to be released soon (not now because it’s all D+ level games)

Other Must Reads:

Ultimate Zerg Strategy Guide by Ahzz
The Art of ZvP by ZerG~LegenD
ZvP luna basics: how to abuse the crackling by zulu_nation8
Queens in the mid-late game ZvX by Empyrean

Having trouble understanding the guide, references or words? Check out Chill's Definitions Guide

Want to learn more about other matchups? Sift through the Recommended Threads and you can see more recommended guides organized by Chill for other matchups, races as well as other general guides and some 2v2 tips.

Salvatore321

Canada12 Posts

June 11 2008 00:59 GMT

This is an awesome guide. Really long and in depth and for Zerg's starting out or trying to get to C+ or so, this is a good addition.

One question, will this help me destroy target USA WCG champs?

useLess

United States4781 Posts

June 11 2008 01:19 GMT

Im Protoss and I find this thread HIGHLY offensive

edit: also, are you sure its 50% lair? i usually do 75% lair and my den finishes at the same time.

EvoChamber

France2505 Posts

June 11 2008 01:21 GMT

Just when the strat forum was getting stagnant, this comes along.

Infundibulum

United States2552 Posts

June 11 2008 01:36 GMT

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

June 11 2008 01:56 GMT

good job!

One thing to note is that in 3 hatch lair with 13 hatch 12 gas, your mutas will come out before the +1 speedlot push comes. In fact if you keep up with the Korean scene 3 hatch lair is like the most popular build right now. Mutas are optional, since most toss pros make a stargate before citadel, usually its just mass drones + scourge into hydras. But pure +1 lots die horribly to mutas in this build.

oneCrash

United States8 Posts

June 11 2008 02:08 GMT

I feel like you discounted one of the most successful ZvP builds in 9pool speedling into regular 3 hatch expand kinda thing. I think Overpool is interesting but Savior and all the other korean Zergs rely on 9 pool speedling consistently as a brilliant counter to the Bisu build or any FE really. It typically goes:

9 Pool, Drone
9/9 Extract
8/9 Olord, drone
9/17 3 glings, Speed ASAP, 10-12 glings trying to hurt the Toss's econ

Either continue glings if they FE'd and have weak defense or follow as such:

3 drones, Hatch @ nat
2 drones, Hatch @ choke or expand
Lair
@ 50-75% Extract
Spire
Immediate Den
Evo Chamber #1
Lurker Aspect/ 7-10 Mutas concurrently based on timing
Muta harrass and then switch to Lurkerling with +1 carapace
-Continue with a normal plan of Hive into Defilers with cracklings, then ultras

I have never seen a korean pro use an Overpool build and I think that may be because it is an easier version of this, pulling a similar trick but slower than speedpooling, and speedpooling requires a better mixture of micro, macro, and overall efficiency than most players can do. I certainly struggle with trying to do this but I think that imitation of the greats is the best way to improve.

Equinox_kr

United States7395 Posts

June 11 2008 02:51 GMT

Interesting guide, I find it's always helpful to read guides for the opposite race matchup so I know what to do next time

JIJI

Canada291 Posts

June 11 2008 03:01 GMT

Superiorwolf > (P)

Wolf ?

I think so. Awesome guide, hope I can have time to read it sooner or later XD

inlagdsil

Canada957 Posts

June 11 2008 08:32 GMT

#10

Great! I haven't gotten through all of it yet, but the timings will be very useful!

Raithed

China7078 Posts

June 11 2008 08:40 GMT

#11

nice read.

flag

United States228 Posts

June 11 2008 13:23 GMT

#12

Didn't read the whole thing because I'm not a zerg player, but question about the overpool build. Why do you make 2 drones after pool and before extractor? You can make extractor right after pool and not waste any larva allowing for faster zergling speed.

memmypoker

119 Posts

June 11 2008 15:20 GMT

#13

thank you madam, this guide is good

Chill

Calgary25979 Posts

June 11 2008 15:32 GMT

#14

Holy fuck. I'll read this later.

Naib

Hungary4843 Posts

June 11 2008 15:46 GMT

#15

You know, the title fills me with happiness. For years we struggled to adapt to our zerg foes, now you are on the RUN. Fear the wrath of Aiur b**ch

samachking

Bahrain4949 Posts

June 11 2008 16:12 GMT

#16

Good Job, nice read and great guide. Although I would add 2 builds, 9 pool speed and the mighty 4/5pool.

Metaspace

Austria670 Posts

June 11 2008 16:40 GMT

#17

Thank you for this great guide! At last an up-to-date BO/BO counter list.

Thanks!

grobo

Japan6199 Posts

June 11 2008 16:47 GMT

#18

Awesome, skimmed through most of it just now and i REALLY like the key timings section, really helpful.

Will read through the entire thing later.

samachking

Bahrain4949 Posts

June 11 2008 17:24 GMT

#19

Btw If I were you I would add the 4 expo mass Muta build that Savior used vs Free on Zodiac, and Gosia used vs Nony in the TSL Ro8. It is a great build, however it only works in LT-esque maps with a connected main and nat and sunkenable choke that can defend both properly. It is a great and wonderful build.

Salvatore321

Canada12 Posts

June 11 2008 18:00 GMT

#20

I just realised that this is just shy of nine thousand words, yet mentions none of the other matchups. Considering most tri-mu guides are about half this length, it makes me curious whether all this is neccessary. Regardless, now you must work on a ZvT guide. Good luck ^^

p.s.

Most gosu scout drone ever!

conCentrate9

United States438 Posts

June 11 2008 18:21 GMT

#21

People call it Robotics Support Bay because if you drag the mouse over the building icon in the UI it shows that that is its full name. The 'Bay' is left off once the building is build for whatever reason.

BlasiuS

United States2405 Posts

June 11 2008 18:50 GMT

#22

On June 12 2008 03:00 Salvatore321 wrote:
I just realised that this is just shy of nine thousand words, yet mentions none of the other matchups. Considering most tri-mu guides are about half this length, it makes me curious whether all this is neccessary

Perhaps you would like to point out which parts are unnecessary.

Salvatore321

Canada12 Posts

June 11 2008 21:59 GMT

#23

I am not saying any of it is unneccessary, I am just saying either Suppy goes into great detail, or not all of it's is necessary.

Archaic

United States4024 Posts

June 11 2008 23:19 GMT

#24

I love this guide. I haven't read it yet, but I will... Some day.
When I get my glasses, I'll get back to this.

EDIT: Read it, and it is exactly as I said. I love it

ShaLLoW[baY]

Canada12499 Posts

June 11 2008 23:33 GMT

#25

I hope your ZvZ knowledge isn't as great or I'm fucking dead in the Clan Art tournament :p
Nice guide, it'll probably help to rekindle my dying ZvP fire

mikeymoo

Canada7170 Posts

June 11 2008 23:48 GMT

#26

Nicely done. This is huuuuuge props.

GeneralStan

United States4789 Posts

June 12 2008 00:00 GMT

#27

Very useful from a P v Z perspective as well. It gives some insight into how a Zerg player will be looking to counter whichever build you're aiming for.

5/5, will read again

ulszz

Jamaica1787 Posts

June 12 2008 00:38 GMT

#28

holy shit this is long, i'll read it though! thanks~

riptide

5673 Posts

June 12 2008 01:41 GMT

#29

Amazing guide. Wow, a much needed thread in the strat forum. I love how you have covered all the major builds and counters, it makes this thread a great reference point to jump back to, and check. I'll definitely be using this in the immediate future.

Now, how about a ZvT and ZvZ? :D

Niji-z

United States208 Posts

June 12 2008 01:44 GMT

#30

Wow. I think I've fallen in love with you. I haven't read the whole thing yet but I read the openers and skimmed the subheadings of the rest of it.. This is exactly what I need! You've just rekindled my urge to mass train. I think I can finally understand zvp now. THANK YOU THANK YOU!

OneOther

United States10774 Posts

June 12 2008 07:13 GMT

#31

superiorwolf are you sure you don't mean F+ ranking? C+?!
haha just messing. nice hard work.

goldenkrnboi

United States3104 Posts

June 12 2008 07:51 GMT

#32

very very nice. :D

i personally love doing mass hydra/ling instead of ultraling mid/late game, but i'll see if i can control ultraling better in order to make it another regular unit combo for me.

when would it be an okay idea to rush to ultra tech? i tried it once, but epicly failed it.

Ozarugold

2716 Posts

June 12 2008 08:02 GMT

#33

So...nothing with queens then?

Anyways, I like reading articles like these. Clear, concise, simple, and tells you how to act step by step...

Good read good read

blagoonga123

United States2068 Posts

June 12 2008 09:11 GMT

#34

Thanks man :D

Equinox_kr

United States7395 Posts

June 12 2008 13:55 GMT

#35

I took your key timing advice and it helped a lot, thanks. :D

Mhugues

France112 Posts

June 12 2008 19:07 GMT

#36

Great guide, learned a lot from this. Always had a hard time versus Protoss, maybe i will be able to win a few games with this :p

Pangolin

United States1035 Posts

June 12 2008 23:49 GMT

#37

Sort of a stupid question but in this picture:

do you mean you should place your overlord in the same place as the overlord in the picture, or do you place it where the mouse pointer is clicking?

BTW this is a great guide.

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 13 2008 01:07 GMT

#38

Thanks for all the nice comments guys, glad you appreciate the work - Hopefully some things were useful and also thanks for the constructive criticism and advice - I'll be sure to fix that over the weekend.

To Pagolin - You place the overlord where the pointer is clicking, I remember it because there's a small little niche in that area.

Naib

Hungary4843 Posts

June 13 2008 11:53 GMT

#39

On June 12 2008 03:21 conCentrate9 wrote:
People call it Robotics Support Bay because if you drag the mouse over the building icon in the UI it shows that that is its full name. The 'Bay' is left off once the building is build for whatever reason.

It's often overlooked, but I'm positive it wasn't always that way. I distinctly remember playing somewhere just before BW came out, in school and it showed Robotics Support Bay fully even on the playfield.

raga4ka

Bulgaria5679 Posts

June 13 2008 12:58 GMT

#40

Overpool speed seems the safest and will always force the protoss to make cannons at natural before nexus on most maps , your economy won't be hurt either if you followed it up with hat at natural .

ForAdun

Germany986 Posts

June 13 2008 13:18 GMT

#41

On June 13 2008 21:58 raga4ka wrote:
Overpool speed seems the safest and will always force the protoss to make cannons at natural before nexus on most maps

Well that's only partially true. When the rushing distance is normal canons can be built at the same moment when zerglings pop out to finish in time. If the rushing distance is too short - like 12/3 on LT - protoss will simply cut economy once to build the canons a little bit quicker after the nexus. It won't hurt him so much but it will hurt you a lot because you'll have a lot less larvaes in the early game. Especially when the rushing distance is short zerg is in big danger against all kinds of pushes so it often backfires to sacrifice larvaes in the early game.
If you want to force canons before nexus you must play 9 pool instead. This is the main reason why many zerg users still prefer the 12 hatch build.

fighter2g

China11 Posts

June 13 2008 17:04 GMT

#42

This is absolutely awesome. I'm a D player and will be bookmarking this, so hopefully now I can make it to D+ or even C- ^_^ Thanks a lot!

CharlieMurphy

United States22895 Posts

June 13 2008 23:02 GMT

#43

On June 11 2008 10:19 useLess wrote:
Im Protoss and I find this thread HIGHLY offensive

edit: also, are you sure its 50% lair? i usually do 75% lair and my den finishes at the same time.

its like 50-60% lair and itll pop around the same time, 75 is too late.

United States2898 Posts

June 13 2008 23:06 GMT

#44

Well SuperiorWolf, your not that good of a player, so obviously I didn't read this. I think it would make me dumber about PvZ, but nice work. I'm sure a lot of D players will like this.

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 13 2008 23:14 GMT

#45

Well, no matter what I'd have to say this guide was a success because it enticed Ahzz to finish his guide in a record 2 days (he'd been working on it for a year). Cheers!

I'm still going to update it just so people have a variety of guides to read from though

Thanks everyone, we are now in version 1.1 and OVER NINE THOUSAND WORRRRRRRRRRRDS!!!

RaiZ

2813 Posts

June 14 2008 01:23 GMT

#46

On June 13 2008 08:49 Pangolin wrote:
Sort of a stupid question but in this picture:

do you mean you should place your overlord in the same place as the overlord in the picture, or do you place it where the mouse pointer is clicking?

BTW this is a great guide.

Where the mouse pointer is clicking obviously. Assuming it's python.
Overall very well written guide which pretty much sum up all you need to know about how to play zvp nowadays. At least on most macro maps.
Good job.

evanthebouncy!

United States12796 Posts

June 14 2008 02:05 GMT

#47

Bwahahaha! There's more to the mystic protoss openings than you know! Time to get tricky...

P.S. huge props

I fucking hate hydra breaks really. I'm horrible at timing xD gotta keep scouter probe alive more i guess ><

evanthebouncy!

United States12796 Posts

June 14 2008 02:12 GMT

#48

On June 13 2008 21:58 raga4ka wrote:
Overpool speed seems the safest and will always force the protoss to make cannons at natural before nexus on most maps , your economy won't be hurt either if you followed it up with hat at natural .

It seems 1 base 2 gate counters 9 pool really well now. Good timing push with zealots will hit before sunkens are up and zerg will sac so much econ just to put up with it. 9 pool is weak in that regard, it needs some big window of no-pressure to recover from the economy loss, and anytime in that big window protoss can hit you and fuck you up.

Salv

Canada3083 Posts

June 14 2008 05:43 GMT

#49

On June 14 2008 08:06 G5 wrote:
Well SuperiorWolf, your not that good of a player, so obviously I didn't read this. I think it would make me dumber about PvZ, but nice work. I'm sure a lot of D players will like this.

You don't have to be a dick about it. The guide will help plenty of players. If you don't have any constructive criticism, you shouldn't post at all.

United States2898 Posts

June 15 2008 02:17 GMT

#50

On June 14 2008 14:43 Salv wrote:

Show nested quote +

You don't have to be a dick about it. The guide will help plenty of players. If you don't have any constructive criticism, you shouldn't post at all.

thanks for adding great informative input to the thread. i will take after your example from now on.

lejason

57 Posts

June 15 2008 03:56 GMT

#51

On June 15 2008 11:17 G5 wrote:

Show nested quote +

thanks for adding great informative input to the thread. i will take after your example from now on.

your a moron

Akar

United States6 Posts

June 15 2008 04:23 GMT

#52

On June 15 2008 12:56 lejason wrote:

Show nested quote +

your a moron

I agree, G5 you're fucking retarded.

I'm D+ and not D now thanks to this guide, and I'm sure to escalate further the more I practice what it says. The guide was very informative and helpful.

sdG)donkey

United States10 Posts

June 15 2008 14:56 GMT

#53

Best ZvP guide so far. Bookmarked. Anticipating a ZvZ and a ZvT one from you.

United States2898 Posts

June 15 2008 15:39 GMT

#54

On June 15 2008 13:23 Akar wrote:

Show nested quote +

I agree, G5 you're fucking retarded.

I'm D+ and not D now thanks to this guide, and I'm sure to escalate further the more I practice what it says. The guide was very informative and helpful.

sofa king wee todd did?

Thank you kind sir, you sure helped me realize I was out of line. I appreciate your kind words and I will try to make myself a better person by your example and guidance.

RaiZ

2813 Posts

June 16 2008 01:51 GMT

#55

Sacarsm by its excellence. And young childs falling to the trap. How futile

coltrane

Chile988 Posts

June 16 2008 05:37 GMT

#56

really nice guide

it helped me a lot to get more clarity on my very intuitive builds. And timings, there were a few that i didnt knew, lets see how this would affect my game.

i am a huge fan of nine pool against fast expa, just 6 to 8 speed lings, denny scout, go for any 3 hatch build that you want, 2 hatch muta after that is grat too, cause you realy denny scouting scourgin the first sair.

Ahzz

Finland780 Posts

June 16 2008 09:07 GMT

#57

Well, I finally read this guide. You don't go to the specifics on when to make drones which is perhaps the most important thing in zvp (actually, you have this problem too in 1v1's). One thing that determines if a player is good is if they can perfectly balance their drones and army. You didn't cover any of this.

You also kept kind of like talking and talking as if chit chatting instead of actually providing information on several builds, and for example the way you said you use hydras to counter archon/reaver is simply wrong. Especially because archon reaver never actually happens.
They always have some zealots, (dragoons,) high templars mixed to the crew and your hydras get creamed.

It's well written and it does provide good information on some of the openings, but you don't cover several important things that should be mentioned and a few things are wrong

Navane

Netherlands2747 Posts

June 16 2008 11:32 GMT

#58

Nice, thanks! But dont emphasise on the size so much; it makes it look like you're adding words for lenght instead of information. So; the size is good to me, but don't yell NINE THOUSAND WORDS!

Aight

Tacticas

Israel74 Posts

June 16 2008 12:27 GMT

#59

AH! sorry for late reply, anyway this is fantastic! helped me improve on my ZvP's !
ZvZ would be thx =]

anyway, thanks alot for this awesome guide !

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 16 2008 15:15 GMT

#60

Thanks for all the nice comments and Ahzz for the corrections, I will be sure to fix them (but you're completely right about the drone thing, I still have to improve that quite vastly myself).

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

June 16 2008 17:09 GMT

#61

wolf bro u still doing commentating or what? i love how you scream like the koreans, makes the game more interesting to watch. haven't seen any of your new works though.

MiniRoman

Canada3953 Posts

June 16 2008 17:27 GMT

#62

It seems like your not very good vs non FE protoss.

Kingsp4de20

United States716 Posts

June 16 2008 18:35 GMT

#63

Awsome Guide

and Its only robotics support?
they must of patched it because i sware to go it used to be robots support bay

thunk

United States6233 Posts

June 16 2008 18:57 GMT

#64

Nice guide.

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 16 2008 19:49 GMT

#65

On June 17 2008 02:09 w3jjjj wrote:
wolf bro u still doing commentating or what? i love how you scream like the koreans, makes the game more interesting to watch. haven't seen any of your new works though.

With most of the fanbase going to Diggity / moletrap / Klazart, I've found not a really big need to commentate on Korean games - they cover almost every single one, and also there's more commentators on SC2GG and stuff... Plus I've been trying to further my SC knowledge before doing more, so I go on streaks like every couple weeks I do like one a day then stop for like a month or so... I feel like doing more already now, but not the same games that Diggity does because he and the others attract the main fanbase and if I did any of the same games I'd just have a fraction of the fanbase watching them, basically pointless even though I'll be improving the commentary. So maybe I'll just do foreigner rep commentaries

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

June 16 2008 20:10 GMT

#66

On June 17 2008 04:49 Superiorwolf wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yea that's a good idea. I mean with 3 ppl who knows what they're talking about doing games together, u'll get more strategy. But your videos have more emotions and are more fun to watch, especially for games I haven't seen before, it's like watching a game with another friend who screams a lot, if I want more in-depth analysis I can always go watch Diggity/moletrap/klazart if they did the same game. I don't think overlaps are too much of a problem, but yea doing foreigner games sounds like an interesting idea.

By the way, we should play more zvz, I'm currently 1-0 in the lead

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 16 2008 20:13 GMT

#67

I've played you before? Btw, iirc you said you were B level or something. That's extremely strange because I'm only C+ and I find Diggity/moletrap/Klazart videos terribly hard to watch because of all the huge incorrect things they say. Don't you? When I was D+ I found Klazart's videos amazing, but now they are so bad imo - they are all great commentators and all but the strategical analysis they have is disgustingly off

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

June 16 2008 20:42 GMT

#68

I'm only B- due to my ridiculous 33% zvz, C+/B- aren't that different anyway. I sometimes watch their stuff not so much to learn but to get more ideas. Disregarding the mistakes, they do make interesting comments that point in different directions. But now that you mentioned it, its been a while since I last watched one of their videos, I don't really know their level of analysis now. I mean I watch korean VODs and I speak no korean........I just enjoy the atmosphere, they are loud and they never stop talking, and every time something interesting happens they are like "OOOHHHHHHHHHH, WWAAAAAAAAAAA", as I said, makes the game more interesting to watch.

Yea, I was the one that asked you "Are you for real? THE superiorwolf?" when you joined my game. I guess I was just surprised to run into a commentator. My ID is sMi.lols, we should train zvz sometimes, I like seriously need to improve that MU, been losing my cws for that.

Tasteless with his GOMTV Classic is the new shit anyways, some of his jokes are so bad you can't possibly not laugh...

Chill

Calgary25979 Posts

June 16 2008 21:25 GMT

#69

On June 17 2008 05:42 w3jjjj wrote:
I'm only B- due to my ridiculous 33% zvz, C+/B- aren't that different anyway. I sometimes watch their stuff not so much to learn but to get more ideas. Disregarding the mistakes, they do make interesting comments that point in different directions. But now that you mentioned it, its been a while since I last watched one of their videos, I don't really know their level of analysis now. I mean I watch korean VODs and I speak no korean........I just enjoy the atmosphere, they are loud and they never stop talking, and every time something interesting happens they are like "OOOHHHHHHHHHH, WWAAAAAAAAAAA", as I said, makes the game more interesting to watch.

Yea, I was the one that asked you "Are you for real? THE superiorwolf?" when you joined my game. I guess I was just surprised to run into a commentator. My ID is sMi.lols, we should train zvz sometimes, I like seriously need to improve that MU, been losing my cws for that.

Tasteless with his GOMTV Classic is the new shit anyways, some of his jokes are so bad you can't possibly not laugh...

sMi.lols is B-?

kirtar111

United States72 Posts

June 16 2008 22:00 GMT

#70

tl;dr

actually, i did. And it was amazing

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 16 2008 22:24 GMT

#71

Lmao I remember you asking me that, and now I remember that you're sMi.lols (you said so in Ahzz's thread). Ya, how are Arcology and Faust doing? Both old clanmates of mine ^^. Yeah Tasteless is just really good at commentating especially after getting off his rust. He's got the analysis, he's got the jokes and he's got the excitement. He's what got me interested in commentating and he's also what helped me decide to play Starcraft seriously (after my brother showed me some of his stuff).

Ya, I think I still have the replay of you vs. me. What really sucks for me is that my ZvT lategame is horrendous, therefore I always 2 hatch muta in order to get my wins, and ofc that's not really going to help my lategame in the future

Sometimes I do get to lategame and win though :D

My ZvZ is luck-based, sometimes I beat people wayyyyy better than me and sometimes I lose to D's with bad records. I'm going to check the replay and see what happened - just like today where I had a huge lead the whole game, I blew it and lost

Btw you should 2v2, if you haven't seen the "2v2 Group?" thread that I made, unless of course you are one of those people who absolutely hates 2v2.

My ZvP is basically the only matchup that I'm more consistent in, but I'm not too good against 2 gate for sure, 1 gate tech builds and Fast expand builds are my favorite builds to go against. I'd say it's the abundancy of Protosses which makes the matchup better lol. So ya let's train ZvZ together sometime, I spent a mass period watching thousands of XiaOzI ZvZ replays (he has the weirdest style ever, jesus christ. It's some 9 pool into expand, turtle and get another secret expo and use lings to delay enemy expansions, get a huge economy and go devourers and ling/defiler, it's crazy) and I tried that and obviously failed, also some Mondragon / Incontrol and other people replays so I sorta know how it works, I just need to control units better and how to react in difficult situations. So yeah I'll be on iCCup.

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

June 16 2008 22:53 GMT

#72

Chill..........I've been on the team for a while now! lol yea I was B- last season, I thought wbc told yall when he introduced me. Anyway you are like one of the very few active members who haven't f a me yet.

Wolf, my zvt is 50%, zvp 57 %, and zvz 33%. I remember when I started iccup I was C- and I simply avoided zvz by playing tvz or pvz instead, always thinking "i'll work on zvz later...". And three ranks later I still haven't worked on my zvz yet...haha, I might still be at C- level, with occasional lucky wins. I usually play on Sunday afternoons. PM me if you are on. I don't have our rep anymore, my bw auto-save folder can only keep 500 games, so I periodically erase the old ones.

Arco is doing good. I lost a game to him like a few days ago, posted the game here titled "[H] how to do an effective lurker contain?", but few people gave a shit, rofl. I'm not familiar with Faust, never played him, but he's pretty active in cws.

Luddite

United States2315 Posts

June 17 2008 06:32 GMT

#73

Thank you, the timings section is extremely helpful for me.

Yaqoob

Canada3321 Posts

June 17 2008 06:37 GMT

#74

On June 17 2008 05:13 Superiorwolf wrote:
I've played you before? Btw, iirc you said you were B level or something. That's extremely strange because I'm only C+ and I find Diggity/moletrap/Klazart videos terribly hard to watch because of all the huge incorrect things they say. Don't you? When I was D+ I found Klazart's videos amazing, but now they are so bad imo - they are all great commentators and all but the strategical analysis they have is disgustingly off

Did you ever reach C+ on ICCup? I remember that last season you came within 300 points of C+ after gaming for a while on C level. Also do not forget that before your commentaries were the same as Klazart/Diggity/Moletrap with wrong strategical analysis amongst other stuff.

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 17 2008 16:13 GMT

#75

I already told you -_- Anyways, yes, they were, and worse even, but I haven't made any commentaries seriously for a very long time now and just playing SC.

Also people I'm trying to write one of the Korean style 3 hatch lair den/spire build.

Oh ya and happy birthday buddy, come on vent!

Tk0

Sweden2 Posts

June 17 2008 18:35 GMT

#76

I have to say i didn't understand much as i've only played Starcraft on Battle.net for about 3-4 weeks, im still learning much each day and something i really hate r fucked up corsairs slaughtering my overlords before i even get up my third hatchery! well if someone would i would be happy if someone send me a message telling what all Macro and APM means as i only understand what 9 pool etc means so far ^^ (check out my Youtube-account Tk0ftw for noobish ownage :D)

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 17 2008 18:36 GMT

#77

This should help! Has a list of definitions and meanings and you can thank Chill for that!

APM = Actions Per Minute = How many clicks / movements you make in a minute. The average bnet player is probably like 50 APM, while the best of the best (the koreans) generally have 300 - 350+ and some like Nada had consistently 400+ APM.

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 17 2008 21:29 GMT

#78

Added the Korean Style ZvP thing... it's a very interesting strategical / tactical move and I think it's going to my build of choice from now on

SCC-Faust

United States3736 Posts

June 17 2008 22:28 GMT

#79

Very nice on the eyes, and extremely organized so it is fun to actually read for a change.

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

June 18 2008 20:53 GMT

#80

The 3 hatch lair section has a better bo that is 12 hatch 11 pool 13 hatch 12 gas, lair, spire, 4th and 5th hatch, den after 5th hatch, chamber after hydra and ovie speed up started, then 6 hatch followed by 7th. The earlier spire gets scourge on time so that you don't need to make hydras to defend corsairs, its basically just pure drones, which makes it very good economically.

In your game you did a 9 pool transition to it, in that case no need for hydra den until after you chase the corsair away, all early resources go into drones and hatcheries, use speedlings for defense is plenty. This game I just finished like a few minutes ago, should show almost the exact BO.

http://rapidshare.com/files/123417753/0622_sMilolsZ_420SaTurNP.rep.html

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 19 2008 05:08 GMT

#81

12 gas? I looked at your replay and saw your 9 pool speed transition, but as I saw in the Oversky vs White-ra game he didn't make extractor until about 15 - 16. Your replay was much much better economically but I feel it's not as flexible as a double tech tree route, since you get your den later and just mainly use spire to kill corsair. I think they're both slight variants and are both effective and serve different purposes for different styles, in your style you rely on lings for quite a while but in return get more drones and upgrades faster, the other style you've got a tech choice that will really stump the Protoss. The reason your build was so effective is that you made a spire (no den) but no mutas, and the guy went 2 stargate sair to counter mutas but there were no mutas, so really delayed him a lot.

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

June 19 2008 21:06 GMT

#82

3 hatch lair is primarily a defensive econ build, the only reason you get lair so fast is to counter corsairs with scourge, and not having to waste resources on hydras. This way all your resources can be used on drones, hatcheries, and upgrades, which leads to a very comfortable macro mid game. In the 12 hatch version, gas on 12 is to counter the corsair timing because most Koreans tech very fast, they get core after the first cannon, so any later gas your scourge will not come out in time. I'm not dissing oversky but at the moment he is not the zerg who designs BOs. Check out these two JD VODs, the man who designed the new 3 hatch lair.

12 hatch version: JD vs bisu on blue storm, in this version if you make den right after 5th hatch, den and spire will finish about the same time, it doesn't slow the double tech at all.

9 pool version: JD vs stork on Fantasy II. This is my favorite zvp game, when I first watched it I could not understand how JD came back so strong after his 9 pool doing zero damage to a nexus first FE build, but after watching it god knows how many times, the secret lies all in the build itself.

PS. In your guide 3 hatch muta really doesn't deserve its own section if you are covering 3 hatch lair, 3 hatch muta is simply a variation. Current zvp thought is to use mutas to counter +1 speedlot, and use only scourge if the opponent makes a stargate. A second fine point of 12 gas is so that you get enough mutas before +1 finishes, another timing issue.

dogen

Belgium108 Posts

June 19 2008 21:14 GMT

#83

wow most epic intro ever on that second movie

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 19 2008 21:24 GMT

#84

Ok now that you've provided some videos I've got a better understanding of where you're coming from, but personally I feel like if you watched the Oversky vs White-ra game you could see the differences. Also in the Jaedong vs someone on Othello, I think it was the same build as oversky's, with the simultaneous spire/den, 1-2 hydra 4 scourge and then proceed from there.

In oversky game, white-ra went for the +1 speedzeal attack and oversky had the den up in time to counter it with his own 4 hat hydra, if he had made it after 5 hat he would have had to rely upon the mondragon-esque zergling style, or the mutas, which I don't find particularly effective against a +1 speedzeal rush because yes, you'll be able to clean it up, but it's going to be doing tons of damage regardless because it takes so long to kill the zealots. And even if you don't take too much damage, it will be very easy for him to get his advantage anyways with having his 3rd going up.

I feel that when you get both up at the same time and a later gas, you match the economy of your 12 gas build in return for more options upon deciding how you want to counter. With yours, yes you get faster mutas but you delay the hydra den so you can have good macro, whereas the one I talked about is getting them both at the same time just a bit later because of later gas. Your build forces you to play very defensively, as you said, but in the one I saw oversky and other reps (see dragoon vs anytime) it allows you to play either offensively or defensively, depending on how you want to play.

Yes, oversky obviously isn't the one designing the builds or w/e but if you look at JAedong vs bisu

he does seem to do the thing I'm talking about - also just like oversky he gets the ovie speed upgrade quickly as well as the ovie drop upgrade quickly, for a dual mounted attack. I don't remember the game too much but he does get hydra den first, but spire soon after iirc. I'll have to watch it when I'm back.

Coming back to your build with the 12 gas, I notice that in your game your second gas was severely later than an 18 gas's second gas. iirc you got your second gas when spire was about 75%, and oversky / JD / soo got them at Lair 50% (I will upload soo rep when I get back so you can see that).

Overall I'm not too familiar with the build so I'll have to do more research, I think yours is just a variation and there are multiple kinds that people do, such as the JD ones you listed or the oversky / JD / soo ones. JD seems to do them depending on situations and others copy him.

edit: Thank you for the criticism though, because it will make the final section there much clearer and more in-depth and as well, it's teaching me because I only just saw the build a week or two ago. Others, please add input too so I can understand more (I've downloaded lots of reps to study it, however).

akio123

United States46 Posts

June 19 2008 22:28 GMT

#85

awesome guide!
thanks wolf

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

June 20 2008 00:38 GMT

#86

The game JD vs. Bisu on Othello that you linked features a different build lol.

It's 4 hatch lair, going speed hydra --> muta --> lurker hydra drop and/or frontal attack. This is a very aggressive build designed to work on new maps where the third base has gas and is easily acquirable, because all the tech switches requires heavy gas income. I don't think you covered this build in your guide, but if you want to add it in, check out these games as well. Same build, same person, different maps.

JD vs. Best on Katrina

JD vs. Bisu on Colosseum

That aside, I disagree with your analysis on gas timing and mutas' effectiveness. The first gas timing determines tech timing, while the second gas timing determines the amount of gas units you can make. Taking second gas early will compensate taking first gas late in terms of how many gas units you can produce, but it doesn't do anything to help your tech timing. The point of fast lair is to counter protoss' tech timing, its not like we want to mass produce scourge or anything, we just need enough gas to get the upgrades.

On muta vs. speedlot, I wasn't being specific. If you scout your opponent not making a stargate, you take your second gas right away, skip 5th hachery and you should have 9-11 mutas ready when the zealots arrive, that many mutas + 12 speedlings + 1 or 2 sunken can mop up 1 group of zealots easily. I've never had to make more than 2 sukens to absorb the zealot attack. And while he is attacking, I take my 4th, make pure drones and get lurker upgrade, after the battle I have 4 bases and close to 50 drones, while protoss just finished cannoning up his main and natural. Usually if you take damage from zealots your mutas weren't fast enough, possibly due to the late gas. Most Koreans never do hardcore speedlots anymore precisely for this reason. If they go without a stargate they usually tech very fast to templars with less zealots, which means he won't attack at all if you have mutas flying around. Then its up to the zerg to get his hydra timing correctly to survive the archon/zeal push. Everything is timing.

As regard to oversky, he has failed to impressed me with any results for a long time now. Low econ drop play is like the only thing he is capable of doing at the moment, and his macro can't seem to keep up anymore. I do not advise learning his variation on JD's build.

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 20 2008 01:11 GMT

#87

Thanks, it's starting to make more sense now, although still many other Koreans do the simultaneous spire/den. Anyways, if you could provide more reps of yourself / Koreans / others it would be greatly appreciated so I can learn your variation as well. I've watched the youtube vids a few times now too, but I find reps better because I can watch the exact bo.

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

June 20 2008 04:30 GMT

#88

Yea, VODs are hard, but sometimes they are the only source available. I watched the above games over and over again to try to get every detail out of them, and even so it can only be an estimate, like make den after fifth hatch, not den at xx supply. I'll post reps if I play a good one. But there is always a trade off between good quality and good execution of the BO. Because if I play people who are really good they'll pressure me right from the beginning and my BO won't be very exact, and if I face lower skilled players and execute my BO without any harassment, chances are the games are very one-sided and not very high quality, like the one I posted earlier. I usually don't keep the games I win anyway, but I'll save any good ones for this thread.

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 20 2008 04:33 GMT

#89

Hey do you have msn or something? I tried the build you told me and I kinda wasted the first 6 lings so I had terrible eco throughout because I needed to make lings to fend off zealots, and even then I think the build is still pretty good because I was able to stay alive for a while. I definitely still like the simultaneous den/spire build though - because you can choose any tech route you want, with spire first then den I feel it's kind of like feigning mutas to make protoss go 1 gate many sair or 2 gate sair and then counter with hydras, which forces your opponent to do something but if they don't you might be screwed? Or is there anotherwise? My MSN is cslhome@yahoo.com btw. AIM conaanaa

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

June 20 2008 05:04 GMT

#90

I haven't touched MSN or AIM for a long time now. But if you are talking about the 9 pool version, zerg is already slower in macro due to early speedlings, adding a den earlier will delay your hatcheries and you'll have less drones, and on top of that if you were forced to make hydras early, it really messes up your economy, your mid-game will be very hard to play.

To deal with zealots your speedlings should be more than enough, just keep to the 3:1 ratio. Its not that big of a deal to make a few more lings, as long as you are not forced to make sunken or hydras early. Time your lings to match his zealot number, usually 12 is plenty to deal with any small force, if he sends like 5 slow zealots, pop a few more lings to make him regret wasting units. As long as you pump pure drones until after the corsair threat is over, your economy should be fine.

As to toss' tech split, you only need to know whether he has a stargate or not. It's obvious because the number of gateways he has will give it away even if he hides the stargate itself. If he has a stargate, mutas are not good, all he has to do is to keep pumping sairs until he can beat you in air, while making dts to exploit your slow ovie, and mass speedlots to exploit your lack of ground units, once your mutas are no longer a threat he'll do damage to you. Down side to a stargate and corsair is that he will have less zealots, even though +1 and speed still finish at the same time, the less zealots he has the less hydras you need to defend, you really don't need to make any hydras until after the corsair threat is over. Add 1 sunken at natural and 1 at third, plus your early speedlings should be plenty to help the speed hydras. Now, if he makes only one corsair for scouting, get lurker up after speed, you'll need lurkers to defend storm/zealot combo. If he makes a lot of corsairs, you can get range after speed, lurker after range, because the more corsairs he makes the less zealots on the ground.

On the other hand, if your opponent doesn't have a stargate, going muta will be a good choice, I would just delay 5th hatch, den and ovie speed to get 11 mutas to fend off the zealots, while catch up my eco and upgrades after mutas pop. We are not "feigning" mutas, it really is an option for us, we just choose not to go mutas if there is a stargate or two to counter us. What I'm trying to say is that the den timing is designed to counter toss' attack timing, we do have the double tech choice, we just don't need the den any earlier.

If you did a 9 pool speed build, your opponent's eco should be slowed down too, so his attack timing is delayed as well as your own defense timing, you really don't need earlier hydras unless you plan to attack him, but such early hydra attacks are usually all in.

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 20 2008 18:21 GMT

#91

Well in my game I didn't try to go early speedlings, just early 6 lings like JD did vs Stork on Fantasy 2 (he got extractor after 3rd hatch, at 12 supply). Also what is your opinion on getting all 3 upgrades (melee, range, carapace). Is it situational or preference? I feel like with this build it's more needed because you're going to be doing hydra for a very long time but then again, JD only went for carapace + armor. So what would you say about a regular 9 pool no speed 6 lings, vs a 9 pool speed vs a 9 overpool speed or 9 overpool no speed?

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

June 20 2008 19:03 GMT

#92

To be honest I'm not familiar with all the 9 pool builds except 9 pool speed, so I really don't know. I'll have to try them myself to get a feel on it.

We are not doing hydra for that long though. Both VODs I linked featured protoss opening sair/reaver, in that case we get speed and range before lurker tech, and mass hydra. But if toss only got 1 corsair for scouting, we get lurker before range, and transition quickly into lurker/hydra/ling.

About the chambers, I think JD got carapace and range attack, because that makes the most sense vs. sair/reaver, and he might have done that because he opened 9 pool and didn't have the resource for a third chamber early. But in the 12 hatch version vs Bisu he did have 3 chambers going. The Korean Z style doesn't rely on upgrades that much, it relies on econ and mass. The idea is that a large army down 1 upgrade is stronger than a small army up 1 upgrade. Zerg units are designed to be weak but numerous so it makes a lot of sense to me. Also, that puts a lot of pressure on the protoss, because his lead on upgrades is temporary, it's up to his skills to damage zerg while he has that upgrade advantage.

Here is a 12 hatch one I played. You'll see the toss is clearly better than me but he made a few mistakes and I got lucky. My BO is not very good in this game, I messed up my scourge and lurker timing and suffered disasters, but even so, the econ and production speed from this build were the only things that kept me alive. This is what a protoss with really good timing looks like, and how defiler saves the day despite many ppl argue they are useless in zvp.

http://rapidshare.com/files/123869086/0613_sMilolsZ_50CaLSungMinP.rep.html

We can exchange reps to help each other, post yours.

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 20 2008 22:08 GMT

#93

I can't believe I lost this.... but the guy was pretty cool, we were chatting a lot in the end while he slowly killed me. Man, I loaded an overlord with 2 lurks that were full hp before he killed 12 o clock, but then the ovie had 5 hp and he stormed it, so both lurks died. If not, I may have won because before he was using arbiters to take out sunks, he told me if I unburrowed lurks he would leave. Oh well, crackling was cool

http://fighterreplays.com/starcraft/replays/024954
OR
http://www.savefile.com/files/1621286

We both made some mistakes and saw them after analyzing the replay together:

1. My mutas didn't do much damage because I was trying to macro
2. My mutas came very late because I didn't know spire was done
3. I didn't take out his min only
4. I didn't take out his 5 o clock because I didn't know it was so low on health
5. I did not have good flanks, storms ripped me apart
6. Stasis ripped me apart, I had bad flanks
7. The lurker thing
8. If only I knew he was finally out of minerals... -_-

1. He didn't upgrade leg speed
2. He almost was gonna say gg when he saw mutas, but I did so little damage because they were late and I was trying to macro at home
3. He is Zerg but plays PvZ, which is his worst matchup

I had some good plagues and stuff and the overlord / arbiter micro was cute so I still enjoyed the game

Louder

United States2276 Posts

June 20 2008 22:59 GMT

#94

This thread is awesome. We need more contributions like this =O

What I'm saying is, someone write a Protoss guide, because I have no fucking clue.

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

June 21 2008 04:01 GMT

#95

Now that is an interesting game lol. Now you believe me that mutas rape zealots

My thoughts:

1. 4th hatch too early, get spire first, and don't stop drones, get 4th when you have the minerals, that delayed your mutas.

2. Second gas too late. I know I got it late vs. a stargate build, but when the opponent has no stargate, I get second gas immediately to pump out more mutas right away. If you sent 8-9 mutas without all the delay, you could've won the game because his cannons were late, and so was his archive.

3. Main problem, low econ. After you had enough mutas you should have pumped pure drones from 5 hatcheries while upgrading lurker, carapace, and ovie speed. You should have been able to saturate 11 (around 45 drones in total, that's about all you need to finish the game) before having to commit to combat units again. In this particular game he actually threw away his entire zealot army for no reason, that was a suicide move from him, I would have taken advantage of that and expoed to both 12 and 6 and sealed the win. Did you notice that you were always low on money while he had something like 10000 in the bank?

4. Second main problem, you kept throwing your units away...Every good toss player who helped me told me the same thing: it's toss' job to kill zerg, just grow and grow and run over him when you are big enough. To my understanding "big enough" means enough econ to support a production speed that is faster than your opponent's, at that point just keep trading units and he won't be able to keep up the reinforcement. In this game you threw away I can't even count how many lurkers and zerglings, when all you had to do to win was to form a lurker line on your big ramp and macro up, it's his job to kill you before you get too big. And if he fails any attack, you can immediately run over him with units left over and faster production speed.

5. Defiler was too late. Don't use ultras without defilers, you wasted a lot of ultra/ling to archons because you didn't have swarm for support. I would have made both at the same time if not defiler first.

You might be too used to play mondi's aggressive style, but keep in mind your zerglings do not have equal upgrades in this build. Our aggression is based on mass, don't attack with small groups of units just to waste them. Your muta use was fine IMO.

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

July 02 2008 18:05 GMT

#96

http://fighterreplays.com/starcraft/replays/7850eb

I am really loving this new build! It's a much stronger ZvP build imo against the opponents I play. Here's a replay of me losing to a B+ toss, but I held out quite long and held an advantage early game, although his late game was far superior to mine so he came ahead. I can list a few things I may have done wrong.

1. I probably should have expanded more after dealing so much damage with the mutalisk harrass
2. Took too much damage from the DTs
3. When I engaged his army, they were at bad times when he had way more superior army and my defilers were always too late.
4. Throwing units away again (I do this in 2v2 too :\)
5. I think I got a better timing gas, a little bit less low economy so overall I think it's improving nicely.
6. Transition to lurkers was too late
7. Let him break out of contain too easily
8. Did not make drones at 12 for very long time, so couldn't maintain a good ultraling count (and less expoes too as stated earlier)

I think I'm going to have to change the guide a bit to include this build more

It's become my favorite build! The guide has been updated, also, for everyone else!

EvoChamber

France2505 Posts

July 02 2008 20:17 GMT

#97

Please keep chatting, this is extremely helpful!

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

July 03 2008 06:23 GMT

#98

1. U could have killed him with your mutas if you went to his main.
2. While muta harassing, double expo + chambers + drones + ovie/hydra speed, better multitasking, too many zerglings that should have been drones.
3. Not enough drones through out the game. Even playing aggressively you need at least 40 drones, I play more defensively and I go for like 50-60 drones. You had like less than 35 drones the entire game, while your opponent had something around 60 probes, you lost on econ.

Good job with early timing.

Bifur

Russian Federation1208 Posts

July 03 2008 09:02 GMT

#99

7 pool can be upgraded this way:
7 Pool
6 Drone
7 Overlord
7 Drone
8 (3 pairs of lings)
This gives you an economic advantage and Drone+Overlord+drone after 7 pool gives enough time for 3 larva to pump out exactly when pool is finished

gondolin

France332 Posts

July 03 2008 10:41 GMT

#100

w3jjj are jaedong build the following? I am not at home so i did not watch the replays yet:

12 hatch 11 pool 13 hatch 12 gas or
9 overpool 11 hatch 6 lings 13 hatch 12 gas
...
whore drone, lair then speedling
spire when lair finishes
4th hatch (4 hatch, 3 bases)

vs stargate:
5hatch, den after
den and spire finishes at the same time -> 2 scourge to counter the sair + a few hydras

vs mass sairs:
upgrade ov speed, speed then range then lurker
6th hatch at expand

vs sairs + ground
ov speed, hydra speed then lurkers

vs zealot push
9-11 mutas
5th hatch
ov speed+ hydra speed then lurkers

When do you take the 2nd gas? You said you have to take it earlier versus ground, but when is it?

Thanks for this build, it looks great!

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

July 03 2008 16:47 GMT

#101

That's a pretty good summary of the 3 hatch lair build Gondolin, a few details:

1. The first corsair should be in your base when your spire finishes, so you don't actually know how many corsairs he is making until he sends them to you. Make like 6 scourge when spire completes just in case. That should be able to drive back the first 3 corsairs he makes if he does, and contain him in terms of air control. Plus you should use extra scourge to scout anyway, so they are worth the cost.

2. Make hydras as the situation calls for it, I wouldn't make too many right when den finishes, that's counter-productive. For example, if I can defend ground with speedlings and a couple of sunkens, air with a few scourge, then I wouldn't make any hydras at all in early game. It's not like you can attack him with slow hydras anyway, why not make more drones if you are safe?

3. Against mass sairs don't forget to get borrow. Toss will have to rely on drops to harass your drones directly. A cheap borrow upgrade is critical.

4. Second gas timing depends on how much gas you need. If I scout no stargate, I'll take my second gas right away to get gas for mutas. In terms of timing, your opponent's core should complete right before your lair finishes, so look for that stargate. If there is a stargate, mutas are no good because the possibility of sair/dt is very effective, in that case since I'm not going mutas, I don't need so much gas and the second gas can be taken after spire completes.

eborp

United States266 Posts

July 04 2008 00:15 GMT

#102

I have a quick question.

About how many lurkers would be "critical mass" vs zeals?

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

July 04 2008 01:51 GMT

#103

On July 03 2008 18:02 Bifur wrote:
7 pool can be upgraded this way:
7 Pool
6 Drone
7 Overlord
7 Drone
8 (3 pairs of lings)
This gives you an economic advantage and Drone+Overlord+drone after 7 pool gives enough time for 3 larva to pump out exactly when pool is finished

Thank you for this, updated!

On July 04 2008 09:15 Fangster wrote:
I have a quick question.

About how many lurkers would be "critical mass" vs zeals?

Hmm... well there is not really a critical mass of lurkers against zealots because no Protoss will go pure zealots of course, there will be dragoons and templars, archons, etc. But otherwise, zealots really take huge damage once you get about 4-6 lurkers (and thus die very quickly), however a competent Protoss will run past your lurkers and then attack with zealots, minimizing
splash damage.

======================
Thanks sMi.lols for the tips! I have just one more question - in that if you see +1 attack coming from the Protoss you can generally assume that even if he has the Stargate up, it'll be safe to go mutas? When I'm doing the build whenever I see +1 I just go mutalisks, and it seems it's been working nicely though... but I'm not too familiar with Protoss options... obviously I don't want to lose the timing window of attack with mutalisks. Of course the tech route must be chosen even before that though to determine the timing of your second gas... so if you see 1 stargate (generally for them scouting I guess) and +1, how would you react? I think mutalisks are still definitely viable, just like in the game I played against ToSs[pOt] because I still did some nice damage, but are there better alternatives?

eborp

United States266 Posts

July 04 2008 02:56 GMT

#104

Okay thanks =)

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

July 04 2008 04:01 GMT

#105

Well, the whole point of the stargate build is so that toss can scout in time to cannon up properly, and not take damage from mutas. Your opponent scouted you on time, but he failed to defend properly. Your mutas wouldn't have done much damage if he had defended better. What happens afterwards is that toss starts to mass corsairs in his base, use dts to harass while building speedlots and a robotics for drop play. A serious issue with the muta build is that we have slow ovie and hydra speed up, which makes it very difficult to defend drops and dts. And an even bigger problem is that there is a timing attack window for the protoss as soon as he gets enough corsairs to regain air control, at which point your mutas become useless and you might not have enough hydras to defend his push.

This game Savior vs Bisu on reverse temple is a perfect example of why NOT to make mutas when there is a stargate. Now of course we are not playing bisu level protoss, but we are not savior level zergs either, so...yea I think mutas are viable but I think it is a more difficult continuation choice.

Just go with our hydra scourge continuation and you should be fine. A stargate and a corsair reduces the amount of zealots he can make, so we should have enough hydras to deflect anything.

Anyway, here is a game I played that shows how to continue macro after gaining advantages with mutas. I got a few lings in his base...that delayed his core and costed him the game as his timing was thrown off.

http://rapidshare.com/files/126958508/0686_smilolsZ_RvanderVaartP.rep.html

ShaLLoW[baY]

Canada12499 Posts

July 04 2008 22:08 GMT

#106

My favorite part of that last replay was the Bengalaas that delayed a Hatchery at your expansion three times :p

kei-clone

United States31 Posts

July 06 2008 19:37 GMT

#107

thank you for this, this will be very helpful

anderoo

Canada1876 Posts

July 07 2008 15:49 GMT

#108

That 9 overpool build is teh secks

Rapes hard in 2v2 a well

Blu-Ray

Poland93 Posts

July 18 2008 17:07 GMT

#109

What do u think about adding 9 Pool and Overpool strategies into ur guide (i mean of course version without taking gas and getting speed)? Overpool is great build in ZvP because it is so safe and gives chance to kill his probe quickly. What about 9 Pool? This forces cannon first and is used many times by progamers. What do u think about that?

LemOn

United Kingdom8629 Posts

August 08 2008 23:11 GMT

#110

THANK YOU!

Oh mighty Superior Wolf, you have helped me so much. Up until now Zerg's play was just a mystery for me, and I never knew what is in the zerg player's mind. Now I know it all, and will adapt my Protoss skills to demolish the swarm!

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

August 09 2008 02:35 GMT

#111

lololol screw protoss

...

guide updated and I'll update more with reps and fpvods when I get back to the states

N037

Australia9 Posts

September 13 2008 02:22 GMT

#112

Awesome Z v P field guide. I would love to see you make one for Z v T or Z v Z!!

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

October 24 2008 03:02 GMT

#113

@Blu-Ray - Done and done! Both of those builds were added into the guide.
@N037 - I don't have plans to make any extensive ZvT or ZvZ guides, although I wish I could make a 2v2 guide, it seems like it would be impossible because 2v2 has so much more strategy and situational... uhh situations -_-;; that are involved than that involved in 1v1.
Fairly large update today, I'm trying to keep up with the rate of modern ZvP but it's evolving quite quickly! Regardless, I added a lot of information and specifics, although I still need to touch a bit more on drone production. The guide has come from a small 8,000 word guide and is now over 14,750 words. I'm especially still interested in the 3 Hatch Lair style, btw. w3jjj / sMi.lols, we're in the same clan now but I haven't had the chance to talk to you more on modern ZvP (and I see how active you are in iCCup :p). I'd like to know your opinion on the Den/Spire lurker variation as opposed to Spire, then 5 hatch hydra or lurker, it would be nice to discuss

Changelog:
Version 1.5 (October 23, 2008)
-Updated many sections (fixed grammar, errors, etc.)
-Added a new part of the scouting section (how to identify Protoss strategies)
-Fixed incorrect builds, added more information (6 pool, 9 overpool w/o speed, 3 hatch den/lair)
-Tried to cater guide to more recent trends in modern ZvP (3 hatch den/lair, ways to identify Protoss strategies)
-Hotkeys in FAQ (my personal hotkeys)
-Elaboration on Queens (queens or not?)
-14,500+ words

Empyrean

16976 Posts

October 24 2008 03:11 GMT

#114

I love this guide, by the way.

And of course, while I love that you address Queens, expanding a little bit more on the uses of Ensnare, particularly addressing inability of Protoss to flee, an advantage in maneuverability for you, and decrease of Protoss DPS could be useful. Feel free to lift sections from my thread haha :D

(I love Queens. They should be used more....come back chojja...and eri too!

)

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

October 24 2008 03:15 GMT

#115

Yes, I should elaborate more on queens! They are such an interesting unit, and it would be really cool to see them used at least sometimes. I'll get to that right away. Of course there's a lot of disadvantages to queens in many circumstances, but can be very very useful and in certain situations more useful than defilers imo. Some people just really hate queens however and are totally opposed to the idea of using them, so we'll have to see if they ever get used :p For me, I'm thinking of making a smurf account on iCCup and solely testing queens as a valid unit for standard play. I'd love to see how they work! Thanks for the input

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

October 24 2008 03:23 GMT

#116

Okay, I added some more on queens and put some links to your thread for further theorycrafting and discussion on queens :D

Empyrean

16976 Posts

October 24 2008 05:00 GMT

#117

On October 24 2008 12:23 Superiorwolf wrote:
Okay, I added some more on queens and put some links to your thread for further theorycrafting and discussion on queens :D

Haha, I fucking love them. Such an underused unit.

They're a very good unit to use against Sair/DT or Reaver/Sair builds with Ensnare and Parasite, for obvious reasons. I'm looking forward to those replays, by the way ;D

(I think I'm going to start ZvPing instead of PvP even though my PvP is a better mu for me...I just want to develop that one mu and try and incorporate queens into my gameplay hahaha)

Ilikestarcraft

Korea (South)17726 Posts

October 24 2008 07:44 GMT

#118

your keys arent savior's

Ronald_McD

Canada807 Posts

November 21 2008 03:58 GMT

#119

This guide really helped me a lot
I've just started trying to get good lately
And this has definitely improved my ZvP

Thanks a bunch.

SilentNoodle

Australia290 Posts

June 15 2009 09:36 GMT

#120

since everyone needs extra ZvP help, i thought i'd bump this... it helpped me alot in ZvP o:
and i always come back to read over it again haha

+ Show Spoiler +

this is probably in the recommended threads aswell, but some people don't look there i'm guessing O_o for some strange reason!

it's an awesome guide~

Wala.Revolution

7582 Posts

June 15 2009 12:28 GMT

#121

I was going to write "Not another zerg guide!" because tosses are having enough trouble vs neo-sauron as it is...

Still a very well-written guide nevertheless. Now if only a toss can write a guide like this.

Impervious

Canada4198 Posts

June 15 2009 18:23 GMT

#122

So, I have a question about the most under-used unit in the history of Starcraft - the Scout.

I played against a player recently, and instead of going for sairs, he went for scouts. I opened 9-or-10-pool (can't remember which one right now) into lair first, then speed (2-hatch).

When I saw the scouts I immediately put down a den, evo chamber and creep colonies, turning them into spore colonies when the evo chamber finished. I was able to defend the initial few scouts easily. The problem is this - the scouts just wouldn't die. They are a lot harder to kill than sairs, and can be used to kill drones, as well as overlords, quickly.

I treated it exactly how I would react to Corsairs. I went for a Hydra break (since Scouts are resource intensive, I figured I would have a good chance at winning right there and then). That failed, but I ended up containing him well, stopping him from even taking his natural until about 15 minutes into the game (he was able to secure an island expansion, it was on Python). His suicide scouts, however, were killing drones, expansions, and overlords like there was no tomorrow. Air units were not going to be effective, and ground units were not mobile enough to handle them.

I ended up losing after about 35 minutes, simply because his ball of stacked scouts was just too much to handle (3-3-3 ups, plus speed and sight), plus a formidable zealot army (also 3-3-3 ups plus speed).

I was thinking about getting a defiler and plaguing the ball of scouts, but I was never able to spare the resources (constantly having to rebuild).

I feel like I should have won that game, but I'm not sure if I adapted right. Since this guide is about ZvP, I figured you would have a better idea of how to adapt to it.

How do you adapt to Scouts?

LuDwig-

Italy1143 Posts

June 15 2009 18:28 GMT

#123

overpool.. if protoss does not take any damage what i have to expect? i has low eco...so what is the p best counter to overpool?

ghermination

United States2851 Posts

June 15 2009 18:31 GMT

#124

Really good guide. I wish i had the skill to write something so comprehensive. ><

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 15 2009 20:59 GMT

#125

I think I'll re-update this guide once summer is almost over and I'm back from vacation, otherwise consider this guide not obsolete but quite out of date

For scouts, you can't afford to overreact and put an evo + 2 creep + 2 spore = 325 + 100 drones + mining time (I think if I counted right). Try to just defend with hydralisks because it will be possible, you should be able to have them too because scouts take twice as long as corsairs to build. They are viable yes, and kill overlords much faster, but the time to build + increased costs delay the Protoss a lot as well. Just don't overreact and you should be able to play standard from there.

From what I understand it seems like your opponent was going constant scouts though. I guess really it would be strong to do such a thing because even devourers are blown to pieces by the strong Anti-air capacity of scouts. Still, not only does the expense of a scout take away from his ground army size (giving you lots of options to move around the map and have ground map control, many units would work), as long as you don't stay on the defensive and don't let him expand you should win just by the game playing itself out. Eventually you'll have more spores than his poor air-to-ground can handle and also have swarm+plague which'll definitely disable his scouts. Put pressure on him and defend as little as you can. If you pressure him enough he will have no choice but to defend with scouts and/or switch to other units.

If you went for a hydra break after overreacting with making too many early spores and it failed, you would be behind no matter what happened, so it would explain why he would overrun you with many scouts later and you could only barely defend as he expanded everywhere.

For overpool, it is actually a quite economically strong build. I don't know if I put in my guide that it was bad for economy, but I'd have to change that if I did. Overpool speed is the build you'll want to do damage with, but if it fails you can still salvage the game (plus usually you'll at least be able to get a few lings in or prevent scouting if he walls off with probes well). A regular overpool is meant to make a Protoss have to start cannons earlier than if you went a 12 hatch, but if you can runby that's an extra bonus.

I'll update this guide later and maybe make a ZvZ...

Empyrean

16976 Posts

June 15 2009 21:04 GMT

#126

On June 16 2009 05:59 Superiorwolf wrote:
I think I'll re-update this guide once summer is almost over and I'm back from vacation, otherwise consider this guide not obsolete but quite out of date

Why wouldn't you just Scourge the Scouts?

Husky

United States3362 Posts

June 15 2009 21:38 GMT

#127

Yeah.. scouts are super easy to scourge to death. Unless he was massing them in his base they should mostly die.

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 16 2009 02:07 GMT

#128

Right, from a 2 hatch build you are either going den (lurkers, which I'm not fond of) or spire for mutalisks. You wouldn't be going 2 hatch lair and hydras only, it would waste the reasoning for a lair. Supposing that you did go for the spire build you would have 6 mutalisks before the scout because it takes so long for a scout to build. Even when his scout is out you won't need scourge because 6 mutas + reinforcements is easily enough to take down one scout with no cannons. You'll probably have a pair of scourge anyways because you are assuming he'll make sairs. The only way there would be cannons would be if the Protoss was really cautious or if they scouted well. If they scouted well they would have cannons up and 2 stargates or +1 sair so you wouldn't be able to do damage anyways.

From a 2 hatch lurker build I think your lurker aspect will be done by the time his scout comes although I'm not quite sure since I rarely use that build. Thus this is where you can't overreact and just try to defend with hydras while either continuing with the lurker drop plan or just using lurkers to prevent the Protoss from expanding and giving yourself full map control as you get your economy up to counter. Getting a spire just for scourge when you've already gone 2 hat lurker and are low economy is not a great idea imo.

If you did the nowadays standard 3 hatch gas into lair+spire scourge to hydramuta build, then of course you could just use scourge. I'll have to update that in this guide though since it's really changed and all. Also I am kind of regretting writing that you should pool first when you do a 2 hat build. Although the reasoning about preventing scouting is valid, it really makes your economy a lot worse. I'll probably have to edit that. I'm not sure exactly how I said it but off of memory I think I wrote like "pool first is best for 2 hatch builds" but now I don't think it really is.

Hopefully I will be able to update soon in the future!

Piste

6174 Posts

June 16 2009 02:56 GMT

#129

i stoppped reading after I saw the immature banner.

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

June 16 2009 03:05 GMT

#130

I'm sorry!!! The Overmind made me do it!!!

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

June 16 2009 03:39 GMT

#131

What's wrong with the banner?

Wala.Revolution

7582 Posts

June 16 2009 13:56 GMT

#132

On June 16 2009 11:56 Piste wrote:
i stoppped reading after I saw the immature banner.

Funny, I thought that it was always "Zerg scum" and protoss had other derogatory nicknames(?).

No offense to zerg players if my post any sense.

And yes, scouts are a piece of crap vs zergs who has spire, and doesn't fare well vs hydras... but then even 3 hydras (one at each base) can just negate a scout.

However with speed and in numbers they are quite fun to use =D

LeperKahn

Romania1838 Posts

June 16 2009 14:35 GMT

#133

This guide does not provide a clear counter to the "stove versus zerg" build so recently popularized by said guide.

I'm very disappointed.

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