EPT[Q] Pros and Cons of 3 hatch lurker ZvT - Page 2
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
| ||
|
tehAscender
94 Posts
No I still maintain you don't get mutalisk after opening up lurkers. Honestly, have you considered the gas implications for making mutalisk? How many do you make? Players keep their mutalisks alive during the intial harass (we're talking about 3 hatch muta opening), since the mutalisk are effectively your loose contain. Losing your initial muta force allows the terran force to move out and pressure you. Mutalisk for killing drops. Well, I will admit that after I finish muta harassing, I do send my mutalisk to sit around potential drop areas, depending on the number of mutalisk and the drop pathing of the Terran this is not very effective. Maximum effectiveness is obviously intercepting the dropship in the air, and you will not be very effective once the m&m force actually hits the ground. At this point in the game with good ground upgrades. You say the mutalisk should pick off undefended tanks... that sounds like idealist wishing to me... and also you say don't stack them (which does make sense)... but which makes microing them even harder... "only do it if you think the vessels aren't near your mutas." ESP? Vessels are more or less everywhere in the mid-late game, either with the main army, or fresh ones at the main base from the starport. You fucking mention overlord with speed. You just threw all your creditability out the fucking window. Overlords without speed, positioned can see the dropships, what the fuck do you need to waste 150 gas for on speed? All good players kill dropships with scourge (as you mentioned), why do we need mutalisk? I do admit there is some benefit, but not enough benefit to warrant creating an entire new batch of mutalisk (this is a reference to 3 hatch open mutalisk versus 3 hatch open lurker). Regarding the +1 missle attack. I have thought about this too, but most progamers do not get missle. The rationale I have developed to support what progamers do in practice is that, past the mid-game you should have a critical amount of lurkers that 2 hits versus 3 hits is almost irrelevant. In addition, a +1 melee attack to your ground force is just that much more valuable in the end game. | ||
|
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On May 21 2008 13:53 stk01001 wrote: Yea, you should NEVER go muta AFTER lurkers... especially since the Terran is obviously going to get Vessels to deal with lurks and once terran has irradiate mutes are useless. Unless your going for guards or something it makes no sense at all. Go watch this replay then report back: http://teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=758 The rep is old, so you may need a patch changer of some sort, I dunno. However, even so, this strategy still works today. Muta after lurker is fine if you know what you're doing. If you open 3 hatch muta you might do it when he's getting annoying with drops during the mid/late game, especially on a map with lots of island expos. You might say scourge are enough, but if he manages to sneak a dropship past, having some mutas around is better than a scourge only solution. You can always morph to guard later. If you open 3 hatch lurker, another option that opens up is that he might go straight 2 fact tank and go for a push, so doing a tech change to muta can slow him down (as Savior did in the replay I linked IIRC). | ||
|
Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
On May 21 2008 13:53 stk01001 wrote: Yea, you should NEVER go muta AFTER lurkers... especially since the Terran is obviously going to get Vessels to deal with lurks and once terran has irradiate mutes are useless. Unless your going for guards or something it makes no sense at all. you both suck. i've win plenty of games going muta after lurker simply because terran makes no defense against mutalisk, mostly becasue most people think the same as you. plus making mutas after lurks makes you invincible against dropships | ||
|
RaiZ
2813 Posts
On May 22 2008 04:59 tehAscender wrote: Well i could say the same about opening mutalisk and the gas implication for lurks... Don't tell me that 3 lurks is enough to contain him or surviving untill you have defilers... RaiZ: No I still maintain you don't get mutalisk after opening up lurkers. Honestly, have you considered the gas implications for making mutalisk? How many do you make?  Players keep their mutalisks alive during the intial harass (we're talking about 3 hatch muta opening), since the mutalisk are effectively your loose contain. Losing your initial muta force allows the terran force to move out and pressure you. Mutalisk for killing drops. Well, I will admit that after I finish muta harassing, I do send my mutalisk to sit around potential drop areas, depending on the number of mutalisk and the drop pathing of the Terran this is not very effective. Maximum effectiveness is obviously intercepting the dropship in the air, and you will not be very effective once the m&m force actually hits the ground. At this point in the game with good ground upgrades. You say the mutalisk should pick off undefended tanks... that sounds like idealist wishing to me... and also you say don't stack them (which does make sense)... but which makes microing them even harder... "only do it if you think the vessels aren't near your mutas." ESP? Vessels are more or less everywhere in the mid-late game, either with the main army, or fresh ones at the main base from the starport. You fucking mention overlord with speed. You just threw all your creditability out the fucking window. Overlords without speed, positioned can see the dropships, what the fuck do you need to waste 150 gas for on speed? All good players kill dropships with scourge (as you mentioned), why do we need mutalisk? I do admit there is some benefit, but not enough benefit to warrant creating an entire new batch of mutalisk (this is a reference to 3 hatch open mutalisk versus 3 hatch open lurker). Regarding the +1 missle attack. I have thought about this too, but most progamers do not get missle. The rationale I have developed to support what progamers do in practice is that, past the mid-game you should have a critical amount of lurkers that 2 hits versus 3 hits is almost irrelevant. In addition, a +1 melee attack to your ground force is just that much more valuable in the end game. So you think that koreans are gods and that everything they do are exactly what we should do ? Sorry but i won't agree with you. Hell i could redirect you to Pillars' post in order to get some koreans insight back there or even boonbag's blogs since they all said that koreans were mostly about mechanics rather than new strategics things (with a few exception obviously which goes to nal_ra, boxer, bisu, julyzerg, etc etc...). If we follow your mind about not having mutalisk after a lurks opening then i don't see why it'd not be good to have +1 missile in each base in order to prevent more effectively the drops in case you didn't intercept them (lurks in the expands). Believe me, I already did crazy things way before the koreans were able to pull them publicy. And guess what ? They finally did it. It's just that they weren't ready to do some unorthodox things in live, and think that our theories were absolutely wrong (all mechanics remember? Or maybe cauz they don't want to change a few their strat since they're good enough to make them win). | ||
|
RaiZ
2813 Posts
-If they go wraiths they're fucked because of splash damage / ovi speed (like i said personal preference) but that only works against noobs. -If they go vessels then it's always good to waste their irradiates in devourers than lurks right ? Not to mention that they have a lot of armor which make them hard to die against marines when you're chasing vessels. -It cost only 600 gas. The minerals we have already plenty of them if you're using savior mass drone's style. Note that the devourer thing is only theory. Guardians are already a pain if you don't play maps like LT and didn't waste their irradiate to lurks (it's already hard even when they spend irradiate on lurks anyway). | ||
|
tehAscender
94 Posts
Please try again to support your original claim for overlord speed. It's impossible. I want you to admit you're wrong at least about this point. You cannot use the word 'preference' to justify an action, there is always optimal and non-optimal. What you're referring to on Lost Temple with Boxer picking off the overlords... those were the first two overlords... nothing to do with overlord speed... just Boxer's excellent understanding of overlord pathing to the cliffs. Also I've already mentioned this in my prior posts, but you seem to be forgetting that by making more mutalisk, you reduce the number of lurkers you will have. And I'm telling you, you'll need all your lurkers and to fight him at your front door to kill the terran ball, and 6 fucking mutalisk instead of 5~ lurkers aren't going to put you ahead. I did mention there was a sliver of benefit if they did not turret up AT ALL. But a good terran would maybe build a few turrets mid-game, and respond to your muta harass with keeping an M&M group at home. Of course, if you want to assume your opponent is terribad why not just 4 pool? Assuming a terran won't adapt to 7 new mutalisk in the midgame when he has superior m&m upgrades is a critical misunderstanding. Also, don't mock the korean play. They play starcraft for a living, would you doubt their methods? Everything they do is designed for top tier competition, if you want to assume your opponent is less then the best, that's your mistake, and it will hamper your own development as a player. Lurker --> Mutalisk can definitely win you the game. Should it win you the game? No. | ||
|
YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
| ||
|
t_co
United States702 Posts
| ||
|
bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
Question. Is it smart to get a fake spire and go 3hatch lurkers, hiding the den? And I always thought about missile up to going lurkers. I'll take ascenders and years of progaming as an ok. | ||
|
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Go watch this replay then report back: http://teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=758 Are you saying Savior should not have won this game? You are a retard. Mutas after lurker aren't a good option every game, but depending on circumstances, they can be very effective. For instance: Terran goes FE and then sees you go lurkers and throws down 2 factories while on only 2 rax, or even while on 3 rax. In this circumstance, the Terran will more easily be able to push sooner against the lurkers, but if you follow up with muta, you can kill his reinforcements. If he tries to force it, you can stall until you're ready to crush his army, putting him right away in a bad position. His only option is to wait until he has switched over to vessels, has more rax, and has marine upgrades going. But he's already invested so heavily in the tanks, meaning it will take TIME for him to get that tech ready. I think most people are coming into this thread thinking about the Terran's build as if it were designed in order to counter mutas, not a build designed to face off against lurks. BTW, I'm not sure anyone said this, but if you go 3 hatch lurkers, it's imperative to start upgrades very early. If the Terran gets ahead of you in upgrades, you're hosed. | ||
|
kakisama
Canada82 Posts
Regarding the upgrades, even if you have a critical mass of lurkers, the 2 shot marines is VERY important if you do lurker traps or just the fact that you can make more flanks with less amounts of lurkers. On lower level play (still somewhat competitive) I ALWAYS make a lot of lurker traps, or even just spreading lurkers out since people generally do not spread vessels and bunch them up either behind or in the center of their army, fearing scourges. And yes you can make mutalisks after lurks but only after you have a steady econ going. What use is mixing mutas with lruks? 3 mutas and 2 lurks after initial pop? That is Totally useless. Even still I believe they are only usefull as guardians. many people fail to use guardians because they like to hide them behind the ridges or just in bulks by themselves. What I found really useful is setting them right ontop of my lurks and set lurks out of tank range, then go for a slow push or flank. About overlords, I can only think of getting speed when you break a LARGE terran ball or front entrance of a turtling terran. It doesnt always work(3/10 of the time? although it might be because of my low apm ... ='[ ) but it gives you a few moments to cast your plague/ swarm and rush in. First thing you do is to position your guardians and lrukers(unburrow) along with some scourges and overlords outside of the terrans range. The first thing a terran does 9/10 times is either scan or send vessels to take out something( be it a defier, lurker or guardian). Once you see a glimpse of his vessel bulk( as I said earlier, people do not have enough apm to seperate everything and vessels are usually bunched together), you rush in with all your units and cast some swarms( doesnt have to be perfect, but must atleast cover some units) the marines will hit the ovies first and ignore your scourges. While you can scourge the vessels that are trying to irradicate your units. That huge block of words is actually not as apm intensive as you think. ie. 1-3 unit group , 5 defier, scourges , 6 overlord step one : send everything in ( not apm intensive ) 1 -> right click, 2 -> right click, etc. step two: cast swarms ( a bit harder and this is usually where it fails ='[ ) step three:clone scourges ( VERY easy with a bit of practice ) step four : burrow lurks If terran unseiges, its gg him since guardians will be picking off units as the leave and if terran decides to fight you have AMPLE time to burrow lurks. Marines shouldnt target your units because of ovies. To pull this off you really need decent apm because ovies dies VERY VERY FAST. I know this is a 3-hatch lurk thread, but I forgot when I was typing @_@ sorry =[ | ||
|
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Hiding Zerg tech is NOT about winning the game, but about getting a slight advantage to help push you over the top. | ||
|
5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
1) The most crucial part of this build is scourging the T's first science vessel. The longer he has to go with scan only, the more effective this build is. 2) Mutalisk after lurker is extremely powerful, because it FORCES THE T BACK TO HIS BASE like it does when you open muta. If they spent money on turrets already, you don't need to necessarily harass and engage them like you would have to with a 3 hatch muta build because you already have an economic advantage from them spending, but if they don't have them, the threat alone of 12 mutas flying in and wreaking havoc on their base is sufficient to force them to give you map control while they get turrets up. Take a fourth gas while teching hive. Also, mutalisk switch allows you to effectively deal with a 2 factory tank pump, which is a strong counter to this build. | ||
|
5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On May 22 2008 04:59 tehAscender wrote: You fucking mention overlord with speed. You just threw all your creditability out the fucking window. Overlords without speed, positioned can see the dropships, what the fuck do you need to waste 150 gas for on speed? All good players kill dropships with scourge (as you mentioned), why do we need mutalisk? I do admit there is some benefit, but not enough benefit to warrant creating an entire new batch of mutalisk (this is a reference to 3 hatch open mutalisk versus 3 hatch open lurker). Are you really trying to say that you're better off not having speed vs terran? How are you supposed to position lords around the map? Regarding the +1 missle attack. I have thought about this too, but most progamers do not get missle. The rationale I have developed to support what progamers do in practice is that, past the mid-game you should have a critical amount of lurkers that 2 hits versus 3 hits is almost irrelevant. In addition, a +1 melee attack to your ground force is just that much more valuable in the end game. That's like saying +1 attack is useless in pvz because you should have a critical amount of zealots. K I'm done. | ||
|
Tynuji
127 Posts
| ||
|
YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
On May 23 2008 05:57 5HITCOMBO wrote: 2) Mutalisk after lurker is extremely powerful, because it FORCES THE T BACK TO HIS BASE like it does when you open muta. If they spent money on turrets already, you don't need to necessarily harass and engage them like you would have to with a 3 hatch muta build because you already have an economic advantage from them spending, but if they don't have them, the threat alone of 12 mutas flying in and wreaking havoc on their base is sufficient to force them to give you map control while they get turrets up. Take a fourth gas while teching hive. Also, mutalisk switch allows you to effectively deal with a 2 factory tank pump, which is a strong counter to this build. this is not true. a muta opening forces the terran back to his base because at that point in the game, he doesnt have enough marines to both deal with the threat of your mutas and move out to pressure you. 2 or 3 minutes after that timing and he definitely will have enough marines to render your mutas useless and move out to pressure your 3rd expo. this is why timing your lurkers correctly is so important when you open with mutas. so now you say to make mutas after a lurker opening to bring a terran back to their base, but the problem with this is your muta timing now comes at the time when terran has enough marines to deal with your harass AND move out. sure, the surprise of the mutas might make the terran bring back some of his army to defend, but its going to bother him for like 10 seconds while he does that. he can still go on the offensive because by this time hes going to have 5-6 rax. when you open 3 hatch muta, theres a 2-3 minute window where your mutas pose a threat to the terran and keeps him in his base. after a while hes able to move out (why?? cuz hes built up a sizeable marine force). so if youre opening lurker, you pass up that timing where your mutas would've been effective. why the hell would you build mutas after that? muta after lurker is not anywhere near 'extremely powerful' and i have no idea how you can say it forces the terran back to his base the same way it does when you open muta. mutas at 7 minutes are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from mutas at 10 minutes. | ||
|
YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
On May 23 2008 06:01 5HITCOMBO wrote: BUT WAIT Are you really trying to say that you're better off not having speed vs terran? How are you supposed to position lords around the map? That's like saying +1 attack is useless in pvz because you should have a critical amount of zealots. K I'm done. no its not like saying a +1 attack is useless in pvz. lurkers can attack many units at once, so when you burrow a group of 12 lurkers, chances are that more than 2 lurkers are going to end up attacking a single marine, so itll die whether or not you have the +1 missile upgrade. a single lurker also is going to hit many marines at once, so pretty much every marine is going to end up getting hit by more than 2 lurkers at once. zealots attack one zergling at a time, its completely different. | ||
|
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
1.) In large army confrontations, you have many lurkers ripping through marines simultaneously. More than 2 lurkers will hit, so your lurker attack upgrade won't make much difference. 2.) He will likely engage you using stim (duh). This takes care of the small army confrontations case since after using stim, it's going to be only 2 shots to kill a marine until a medic can full heal it up. Basically, who wins will be determined much more by his marine control than by your upgrade, since if he spreads well or if he spine dodges, then even with upgrades you won't do much damage, but if he doesn't spread well, he'll be streaming in just stimmed marines (which the medics won't have had time to fully heal) into your lurkers for that 2 shot kill. I think that lurker spines are not a waste to upgrade, but aren't necessary either. I don't usually bother upgrading Zerg ground range attacks unless I plan on using hydras. That is true both for ZvT and ZvP. | ||
|
tehAscender
94 Posts
On May 22 2008 08:38 Mortality wrote: Go watch this replay then report back: http://teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=758 The rep is old, so you may need a patch changer of some sort, I dunno. However, even so, this strategy still works today. Muta after lurker is fine if you know what you're doing. If you open 3 hatch muta you might do it when he's getting annoying with drops during the mid/late game, especially on a map with lots of island expos. You might say scourge are enough, but if he manages to sneak a dropship past, having some mutas around is better than a scourge only solution. You can always morph to guard later. If you open 3 hatch lurker, another option that opens up is that he might go straight 2 fact tank and go for a push, so doing a tech change to muta can slow him down (as Savior did in the replay I linked IIRC). I watched the replay. Was entertaining don't regret it a bit. EDIT: By the way, the version is 1.14. However regarding your point... 00:07:34 metrosexual Hatch Mutalisk Never makes a mutalisk after that point. To make matters worse... this replays showcases a game where the player opens up mutalisk first, when what we are clearly discussing here is lurkers first. This replay however, did pertain to the question of +1 ranged attack. Obviously, the combo here that the zerg was trying to attain was plague + hydralisk, to ownage m&m. Some hydra sniping of science vessel was also nice, however, in the grand scheme of things I don't believe missile upgrades are justified by this replay. By the end, the zerg ('sAviOr') just had an insane amount of gas, and he could have been doing whatever the hell he wanted and still probably win. EDIT: Obviously when you mention the 2 factory tank push build, there is some validity to your point. Perhaps making mutalisk could be beneficial? However, you have to take things people say with a grain of salt. Obviously, when I say, "never" that isn't quite accurate, as starcraft has an almost infinite number of potential reactions and build orders a terran can do. For example, if you open up lurkers, and the terran goes dual port wraith, this is a clear example of where a muta transition could be warranted. However, I am still right, since the pre-face to any argument over build orders in starcraft is based on fair assumptions, modern play, and current maps. Personally, I don't remember the last time I saw double factory siege tanks. The current environment just promotes how strong science vessels are. And thanks to your_killer for helping cover the fight against lurker --> mutalisk transitions. All of your posts I relate to and agree to with fully. <3. | ||
| ||
