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Ok i've been working on my ZvT lately and it brought up alot of questions in my head. When I first started working on my ZvT, I did the usual 3hatch muta build as that was what alot of people told me to do. The build is extremely solid as you get ur 3rd gas kind of easy as you're harassing the Terran and you are pretty much set up for midgame as your macro would be pretty good. Plus if they try to do sunken break you can just add more sunkens/lings(uhmm people correct me on this if i'm wrong).
But lately i've been opening up with lurkers, and I have to say it has worked pretty well so far for me so I usually open up with it (omfg i finally reached D+ in ICCup cuz of my ZvT. I never thought i'd see the day T_T). But lately I found out that sometimes i can't keep the Terran in his base with this build and sometimes the T even contains me with turrets/bunks outside my base. So I have 3 questions:
1.) What is the proper build order for 3 hatch lurker? for example one question I have with this is what are the timings to get ur 3rd gas and what is the hive timing for this build?
2.) What do you need to do for 3 hatch lurker to work? for example do you need to get overlord drop researched to drop lurkers outside your base if T decides to try to contain you (if that's even possible)
3.) Like in the title, what are the pros and cons of 3 hatch lurker in ZvT. Like, what build is this opening/s is this good/bad against, and in what situations is this build better than opening 3 hatch muta.
Sorry if there was a thread already about 3 hatch lurkers, but I couldn't find any. The closest was a thread about 2 hatch lurks. So if there is/was a thread about 3 hatch lurker then post link. thx guys ^^
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Russian Federation386 Posts
Pros of 3 h Lurk is that if terr fucks up his micro vs lurks he's behind. Sometimes you can catch them off guard if they think u go Spire first. Also you minimize the threat of sunken break.
Cons are obviously that its harder to get 3rd gas and generally map control.
Going drops is also a good idea. I am personally fuckup up if zerg manages to drop 4+ lurkers in my base. They do so much damage I wanna cry T_T
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Pro: you're gonna have sick econ if you make it to midgame
Con: you've gotta make it to midgame. (like said above, hard to get third gas/map control from intial lake of units, esp if you aren;t good with micro)
Someone smart can go more indepth, but that's the basics really.
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you just do the same build as you'd do for 3 hatch muta except you get a hydra den when your lair is halfway done instead of getting spire when youre lair is done. you probably want to add more speedlings too. maybe have about 2 groups of speedlings by the time your lurks pop.
yes, you will be contained. when a T sees that you're opening lurker he'll set up his initial mnm outside of your choke. this is one of the downsides of opening lurker. just use your first lurkers and your 2 groups of speedlings and break out of it. its a lot more difficult than having him run back to his main when you open muta, but its doable. he shouldnt be able to set up an entire siege though...he shouldnt be able to get enough bunkers/turrets to truely keep you contained. something else is probably going wrong in that case, post a rep or something.
a pro of opening lurker is that once you break out of that initial contain and take your 3rd, you pretty much have your 3rd secured because youll have a bunch of lurkers to defend with. muta opening gets you a faster 3rd (you dont have to spend time breaking out of your nat, so you get to take your 3rd earlier), but you have to time your lurks right so that theyre ready by the time he has enough marines to defend his base from muta AND move out to pressure your 3rd. thats the tradeoff.
opening lurker has probably worked well for you at the D/D+ level bcuz the terrans cant micro, so lurkers are really strong. lurkers punish terran for having bad micro much more so than muta, which instead requires you to have really good muta micro to be effective. overall i feel that muta openings are better. theyre more versatile, they get you a faster 3rd, and you dont have to deal with breaking out of that initial containment that youre talking about (and if you are being contained, its much easier to break out of), so i would say keep opening muta right now even though you might lose more with it, itll help you develop the proper micro needed to make it work, and eventually you want muta to be your standard opening anyway.
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United States42978 Posts
A lot of terrans have been opening FE 5 rax mnm on maps like Katrina (the firebathero build) because it can kill the zergs 3rd base with ease. Tossgirl used it effectively on the intel classic. So standard ZvT gets raped hard by it but the 3 hatch lurk variant, which they used to counter the firebathero build, combined with constant hold lurk lamery owns it. So if you're playing tossgirl then go 3 hatch lurk. Or if you suspect the fbh build.
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I also like opening Lurkers ^^. I'm around the D+ level also and find that most terrans make lots of turrets as if I was going mutas anyways which gives you a bit of an edge. Also I can't multitask while muta harassing to save my life.
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Build is simple as YoUr_KiLLeR said. I want to mention few very important things about playing Lurkers. First of all - do not play it like all-in: many people play 3 hatch Lurker as All-in, without perspective to the future. If you get contained, break this contain with your fast Lurkers. I want to mention that when you start morphing your first Lurkers, place Spire instantly. Also - when attacking I really advice you to get another main (or other ramped/easily defendable gas expansion) with 2 Lurkers up the ramp (almost impossible to attack expo without drops/moving Terran Ball). After you act with your Lurkers I reccomend you to at least add some scourges (better option is to add some Mutas too) when Spire is done and start Evolution Chamber (Carapace upgrade all the time; melee next of course  ). Now you have to decide: are you going to play Lair tech for more time (for rookies) or fast Hive (more advanced; add Queen Nest when you start Carapace). From this time this is just normal ZvT with defilers and so on.
P.S. First post! :D
P.P.S. I of course examine how to do standard 3 Hatch Lurker (I mean not-allin).
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the thing is, a 2rax fast tank build will rip this apart if he arrives at your nat right before your lurks morph.
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I do not think so. You just get more sunkens in backward position to keep him pushing with tanks without breaking inside. In the mean time - you get Lurkers.
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Russian Federation386 Posts
A build I've seen recently in Luxury vs Ruby game on Andromeda is rather interesting.
Lux opened 3 hatch lurkers, but he started hive around the same time he started his first lurks. He just used mass lings to keep Ruby's first mnm at bay. This way he managed to brake T's nat and force a lift with very fast swarm push.
Although Lux lost, I think its a very hard build to counter on lower levels O_O
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On May 20 2008 13:36 Blu-Ray wrote:
I do not think so. You just get more sunkens in backward position to keep him pushing with tanks without breaking inside. In the mean time - you get Lurkers.
I just played a guy who faked a 3 hatch muta then went into lurker--I went 2 rax into tank and delayed ebay after seeing that he wasn't saving larva. The result was that I got 2 tanks and 1.5 groups of mnm onto his front door about 20 seconds before his lurks popped. i didn't crack his nat but i did force him to make about 5 new sunks and killed 2 that were already standing, plus three that were morphing, before his first lurks came. Properly microed, 1.5 groups of mnm can kill about 2 lurks, tanks kill another 2 with scan, and with only 2 bases, zerg can't afford that many lurks in his first batch. kept him from getting his third for a good minute, and his decreased mobility and late hive then meant that I could get my third at the same time that he did.
Against 1 rax FE, if the T knows you're going lurks you're pretty much screwed because the T will simply go take all those ~500 mins he would have spent on turrets and go 2fac with an earlier 3rd, which means your macro adv is nullified, and he has more tanks to deal with your greater lurk count. (Since your third and therefore your hive tech is delayed, T can afford to delay vessels a bit unless you feel comfortable going 2 base hive with a late third which means about 5-6 less lurks and insta gg to a good 2fac push.)
Without muta harass, Z simply put, has only a few options for map control if the T has good micro and multitask and both players go standard BOs. One option is drops, which is a huge sacrifice of gas if you research it before T has enough rine numbers to defend against it (meaning that a good T can sniff it out and roll over you); plus most T's will probably leave a group of rines near their base to guard against backstabs anyhow.
I guess one of the best ways to do this, if you were going to do this, would be to fake muta, save larva, and act like you're going muta until the very last minute. But of course, if he's like Nada in the replay vs Stryker and he knows the timings so well he scans your main at the exact moment your mutas should pop... but if he's not, the foolery could work.
Just my 2 cents.
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Yeah exactly but I want to mention that when u go Lurkers u can still get Spire and Mutas (many people seem to be too dumb to know this )!!!!!11111oneoneone Doing some extra aggresive moves with lurkers (not marked like t_co said) will force him to, u know, get some tanks or so... Just to be prepared for fightning Lurkers (maybe he will contain u so u have to do contain break). In the meantime u can prepare next expo (guarded by the 2 Lurkers on the ramp) and get those damn Mutas and harras him. As many Zerg players think that getting Spire after Lurker is forbidden, that many Terrans think that they do not have to fear harras from Mutas when enemy is going Lurker. Of course he might be good player and know ur meanings but I think that if u are pretty good at controling ur Lurkers (ahhh those hold Lurkers ) u will be able to - with the help of harras - make game into standard ZvT. Remember - this is basically getting same stuff in different order; Lurker and Muta build are not so different, just swapping Spire/Hydra Den place in the build order.
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Ahh nice advice about getting mutas after lurks are done. btw when do you get ur second evo? after 1-1 or while upping armor?
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Hmmm... It depends of ur game style. Most players add second evo when 1+ carapace is near to be done.
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Gotta need a good build order, that gives you as many lings as possible, like 24 lings and 3 lurkers, they matter more than lurkers early game.
An early +1 carapace is probably a must too.
The muta switch is also possible and really good vs stuff like 2 rax -> fact timing attacks. Although i wouldnt recommend it at all vs all of these terrans that go 4 barracks +1 weapons really early as of late.
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On May 19 2008 21:59 ChkChk.Boom wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
1.) What is the proper build order for 3 hatch lurker? for example one question I have with this is what are the timings to get ur 3rd gas and what is the hive timing for this build?
2.) What do you need to do for 3 hatch lurker to work? for example do you need to get overlord drop researched to drop lurkers outside your base if T decides to try to contain you (if that's even possible)
3.) Like in the title, what are the pros and cons of 3 hatch lurker in ZvT. Like, what build is this opening/s is this good/bad against, and in what situations is this build better than opening 3 hatch muta.
Sorry if there was a thread already about 3 hatch lurkers, but I couldn't find any. The closest was a thread about 2 hatch lurks. So if there is/was a thread about 3 hatch lurker then post link. thx guys ^^
I primarily agree with your_killer and t_co, I will summarize the points they make and try to develop them further.
1. What is the proper build order.
As already mentioned, same as 3 hatch mutalisk but drop den 50% lair completion. To develop this further I would recommend to place the den in a more hidden spot and the spire in an obvious spot. Obvious there are mind games here, but I usually take my chances assuming the terran will scan the main and sunken line. (Therefore place the den with the third hatchery; hidden).
In addition, after lair tech begins, research ling speed ASAP, and when lair completes research lurker (obviously) and drop a spire when gas permits (muta fake; causes terran to waste money on turrets, entire point of build to catch terran off guard). You should generally make 1 sunken early game to prevent marine only push, saturate your patches with drones, then make 1-2 groups of zerglings.
I believe another variation of this, would be to drop an evo chamber after lair begins, and research carapace. This build should probably forfeit the fake mutalisk spire, but will benefit from early +1.
Naturally, securing your third base will be later, but there is a potential to expand twice (especially to bases with ramps), instead of just once. I believe this is a primary hidden gem of this build. When you break the terran contain you can potentially secure your 3rd and 4th gas very quickly. The natural terran counter is dropship play, and of course scourge and sunken (along with normal lurker and zergling micro) are the counter to this.
And of course, transition into hive. You ask about the 2nd evo chamber timing. I personally usually get it after I have my third base fully operational (minerals and gas); around the time I drop my queen's nest.
2. What do you need to do for 3 hatch lurker to work?
Well, you mention drop. In my personal experience, if you're teching drop you're going for a very aggressive build, that I would describe as 'all in'. If the map doesn't permit some sneaky lurker drops on the mineral fields I don't believe in this. Think about it, committing to overlord drop and speed is very gas intensive.
You need good game sense, and understand position of your army. It's important your lurkers be burrowed before the marines get there. For example, you notice the terran army move toward your third expansion, therefore you should transfer some of your lurkers to help defend there. Lurkers unburrowed moving in to engage a marine medic army is just not as effective.
Furthermore, developing this concept of army positioning, I believe nydus canal is perhaps more important to help you cut down on sunkens and focus more on drones (mid-late game). Hard to describe what I mean here, but basically you can make less lurkers/zerglings and more drones if your army can instantly transports between bases. Creating a stronger timing attack later.
Also, I believe someone (blu-ray) mentioned a transition into mutalisk after having first gone lurker. This is absolute garbage. He's a poor player with 8 posts that probably doesn't even play zerg. You absolutely don't have the gas for this.
Furthermore, it doesn't make sense logically, since the whole point of mutalisk are to take advantage of a timing where the terran does not have enough marines to fend this attack off after fast expanding, thus forcing the turrets. The only sliver of benefit this has, is assuming the terran does not turret up, and you have good muta micro. Note that, this reverse-transition could still potentially lose you the game, as the terran pressures your bases, and your mutalisk transition crumbles to a critical amount of m&m pounding your front door.
If your mutamicro was good enough to make this work in the first place. You probably should have just opened with mutalisk.
In addition, you mention Terran containment. This strategy is best countered by speedlings to harass the terran mainbase, and make reinforcing more difficult. Then when you have a sizable amount of lurkers, take out the intial m and m group.
3. Closing Notes: Pros & Cons
I believe this build is more ideal for lower tier players (you mention you are D+). You probably get the sense of feeling more powerful, because you can definitely take the game with that first lurker group assuming your opponent is not prepared. With muta, it's a longer battle, where you shouldn't be attempting to win with your muta group... just delay and harass.
Judging on what you say about your skill, I would recommend a 4th hatchery in base for additional lings, and be more 'all-in' with a potential transition into a 5th hatchery for a 3rd base. In addition, tailored specifically for you, I would consider reasonable early hive tech, for a defiler finisher.
See Jaedong : Memory. Briefly, Jaedong is really trying to open mutalisk, but Memory very nicely picks off a couple overlords screwing up the timing... this is where Jaedong decides to go lurker instead. Note this will probably differ slightly for you since the map is Andromeda with an additional safe mineral only.
+ Show Spoiler +
Generally as someone already said, I would recommend the 3 hatch muta opening as it is more flexible and develops key zerg player skills (multitask etc.).
I personally experimented with the 3 base lurker fake because I got tired of being too predictable. Generally when I did this build, I felt that I could beat poor players easily, but against a good opponent, I felt I was playing more of an uphill battle, in comparison to if I had opened mutalisk.
Hope this helped.
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Also, I believe someone (blu-ray) mentioned a transition into mutalisk after having first gone lurker. This is absolute garbage. He's a poor player with 8 posts that probably doesn't even play zerg. You absolutely don't have the gas for this.
Furthermore, it doesn't make sense logically, since the whole point of mutalisk are to take advantage of a timing where the terran does not have enough marines to fend this attack off after fast expanding, thus forcing the turrets. The only sliver of benefit this has, is assuming the terran does not turret up, and you have good muta micro. Note that, this reverse-transition could still potentially lose you the game, as the terran pressures your bases, and your mutalisk transition crumbles to a critical amount of m&m pounding your front door.
If your mutamicro was good enough to make this work in the first place. You probably should have just opened with mutalisk.
Yea, you should NEVER go muta AFTER lurkers... especially since the Terran is obviously going to get Vessels to deal with lurks and once terran has irradiate mutes are useless. Unless your going for guards or something it makes no sense at all.
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i prefer starting with mutas-lings... harrassing as much as possible, probably killing refineryes too. as soon as i have 1 control muta i go to harass, while that i tech to lurker, and try to get into his base with a few speedlings. than with lurkers + mutas/lings - depending on his build, i try to kill his nat at least, or contain, and exp.
If he tries some timing attack u can get into trouble, since at the beggining u need to build a strong macro, but a ling at his gate, and a few sunkz immadietly can solve ur problem.
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Ekhem... This is 3 HATCH LURKER thread not 3 Hatch Muta. 3 Hatch Muta is supposed to be most classic build for ZvT. I dont see any reason to just say classic strat on thread that was did for other reason...
But really - 3 Hatch Muta is better if u have decent micromanagement and you do not play total noobs.
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Wtf ? No mutas after lurks ? Why do you keep your mutas alive then ?...
The real purpose of it is more for back reinforcement in order to kill drops for instance.
They also can be good to kills somes undefended tanks that could stay on their base or were about to move in the really point which you can easily take it off. Obviously you have to NOT stack them. Only do it if you think the vessels aren't near your mutas.
I'd say that it's definitely not garbage. It helps for those who aren't 100% aware of the minimap and they didn't see the drops. Otherwise maybe overlord (possibly speed) with scourges are enough.
Edit : Oh yeah also : if you have 2 evolves, get missile first (after carapace) in order to nullify +1 AND +2 marine's armor.
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3 hatch lurker seems to be something you would do only as a fake after you make it appear you are going muta. I don't see it working too well on a similarly skilled terran otherwise :-/
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RaiZ:
No I still maintain you don't get mutalisk after opening up lurkers.
Honestly, have you considered the gas implications for making mutalisk? How many do you make?
Players keep their mutalisks alive during the intial harass (we're talking about 3 hatch muta opening), since the mutalisk are effectively your loose contain. Losing your initial muta force allows the terran force to move out and pressure you.
Mutalisk for killing drops. Well, I will admit that after I finish muta harassing, I do send my mutalisk to sit around potential drop areas, depending on the number of mutalisk and the drop pathing of the Terran this is not very effective. Maximum effectiveness is obviously intercepting the dropship in the air, and you will not be very effective once the m&m force actually hits the ground. At this point in the game with good ground upgrades.
You say the mutalisk should pick off undefended tanks... that sounds like idealist wishing to me... and also you say don't stack them (which does make sense)... but which makes microing them even harder... "only do it if you think the vessels aren't near your mutas." ESP? Vessels are more or less everywhere in the mid-late game, either with the main army, or fresh ones at the main base from the starport.
You fucking mention overlord with speed. You just threw all your creditability out the fucking window. Overlords without speed, positioned can see the dropships, what the fuck do you need to waste 150 gas for on speed? All good players kill dropships with scourge (as you mentioned), why do we need mutalisk? I do admit there is some benefit, but not enough benefit to warrant creating an entire new batch of mutalisk (this is a reference to 3 hatch open mutalisk versus 3 hatch open lurker).
Regarding the +1 missle attack. I have thought about this too, but most progamers do not get missle. The rationale I have developed to support what progamers do in practice is that, past the mid-game you should have a critical amount of lurkers that 2 hits versus 3 hits is almost irrelevant. In addition, a +1 melee attack to your ground force is just that much more valuable in the end game.
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On May 21 2008 13:53 stk01001 wrote:Show nested quote + Also, I believe someone (blu-ray) mentioned a transition into mutalisk after having first gone lurker. This is absolute garbage. He's a poor player with 8 posts that probably doesn't even play zerg. You absolutely don't have the gas for this.
Furthermore, it doesn't make sense logically, since the whole point of mutalisk are to take advantage of a timing where the terran does not have enough marines to fend this attack off after fast expanding, thus forcing the turrets. The only sliver of benefit this has, is assuming the terran does not turret up, and you have good muta micro. Note that, this reverse-transition could still potentially lose you the game, as the terran pressures your bases, and your mutalisk transition crumbles to a critical amount of m&m pounding your front door.
If your mutamicro was good enough to make this work in the first place. You probably should have just opened with mutalisk. Yea, you should NEVER go muta AFTER lurkers... especially since the Terran is obviously going to get Vessels to deal with lurks and once terran has irradiate mutes are useless. Unless your going for guards or something it makes no sense at all.
Go watch this replay then report back:
http://teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=758
The rep is old, so you may need a patch changer of some sort, I dunno. However, even so, this strategy still works today.
Muta after lurker is fine if you know what you're doing. If you open 3 hatch muta you might do it when he's getting annoying with drops during the mid/late game, especially on a map with lots of island expos. You might say scourge are enough, but if he manages to sneak a dropship past, having some mutas around is better than a scourge only solution. You can always morph to guard later.
If you open 3 hatch lurker, another option that opens up is that he might go straight 2 fact tank and go for a push, so doing a tech change to muta can slow him down (as Savior did in the replay I linked IIRC).
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On May 21 2008 13:53 stk01001 wrote:Show nested quote + Also, I believe someone (blu-ray) mentioned a transition into mutalisk after having first gone lurker. This is absolute garbage. He's a poor player with 8 posts that probably doesn't even play zerg. You absolutely don't have the gas for this.
Furthermore, it doesn't make sense logically, since the whole point of mutalisk are to take advantage of a timing where the terran does not have enough marines to fend this attack off after fast expanding, thus forcing the turrets. The only sliver of benefit this has, is assuming the terran does not turret up, and you have good muta micro. Note that, this reverse-transition could still potentially lose you the game, as the terran pressures your bases, and your mutalisk transition crumbles to a critical amount of m&m pounding your front door.
If your mutamicro was good enough to make this work in the first place. You probably should have just opened with mutalisk. Yea, you should NEVER go muta AFTER lurkers... especially since the Terran is obviously going to get Vessels to deal with lurks and once terran has irradiate mutes are useless. Unless your going for guards or something it makes no sense at all.
you both suck.
i've win plenty of games going muta after lurker simply because terran makes no defense against mutalisk, mostly becasue most people think the same as you. plus making mutas after lurks makes you invincible against dropships
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On May 22 2008 04:59 tehAscender wrote:
RaiZ:
No I still maintain you don't get mutalisk after opening up lurkers.
Honestly, have you considered the gas implications for making mutalisk? How many do you make?
Well i could say the same about opening mutalisk and the gas implication for lurks... Don't tell me that 3 lurks is enough to contain him or surviving untill you have defilers... 
Players keep their mutalisks alive during the intial harass (we're talking about 3 hatch muta opening), since the mutalisk are effectively your loose contain. Losing your initial muta force allows the terran force to move out and pressure you.
Mutalisk for killing drops. Well, I will admit that after I finish muta harassing, I do send my mutalisk to sit around potential drop areas, depending on the number of mutalisk and the drop pathing of the Terran this is not very effective. Maximum effectiveness is obviously intercepting the dropship in the air, and you will not be very effective once the m&m force actually hits the ground. At this point in the game with good ground upgrades.
What ? You mean that you don't make more mutas if they die in the harass thus make it useless against singles drops since they aren't enough to deal with them ? Even 3/3 7 marines will have a hard time against 12 fuking mutalisk man it's no contest :p
You say the mutalisk should pick off undefended tanks... that sounds like idealist wishing to me... and also you say don't stack them (which does make sense)... but which makes microing them even harder... "only do it if you think the vessels aren't near your mutas." ESP? Vessels are more or less everywhere in the mid-late game, either with the main army, or fresh ones at the main base from the starport.
Mostly terrans when they see lurks opening will mostly go straight 2 facts instead of vessels since they already have 2 scans that's more than enough to deal with lurks. If the Terran is doing vessels thought then it's always good to get spire as soon as your lurker upgrade is finished right ? I mean it's not harder than getting lurks after mutas harass and getting some scourges in the battle. I think you're way too paranoid though about the mass vessels thing (it isn't worse than mutas opening anyway, just watch every ZvT and tell me if you see more than 3 vessels within the 7~10 min mark ?
You fucking mention overlord with speed. You just threw all your creditability out the fucking window. Overlords without speed, positioned can see the dropships, what the fuck do you need to waste 150 gas for on speed? All good players kill dropships with scourge (as you mentioned), why do we need mutalisk? I do admit there is some benefit, but not enough benefit to warrant creating an entire new batch of mutalisk (this is a reference to 3 hatch open mutalisk versus 3 hatch open lurker).
Like i said it's more of personal preference. It could happen that some silly terrans know where all your overlord are and then will kill them... The very good example was boxer killing every overs here and there on LT by moving early marines.
Regarding the +1 missle attack. I have thought about this too, but most progamers do not get missle. The rationale I have developed to support what progamers do in practice is that, past the mid-game you should have a critical amount of lurkers that 2 hits versus 3 hits is almost irrelevant. In addition, a +1 melee attack to your ground force is just that much more valuable in the end game.
So you think that koreans are gods and that everything they do are exactly what we should do ? Sorry but i won't agree with you. Hell i could redirect you to Pillars' post in order to get some koreans insight back there or even boonbag's blogs since they all said that koreans were mostly about mechanics rather than new strategics things (with a few exception obviously which goes to nal_ra, boxer, bisu, julyzerg, etc etc...). If we follow your mind about not having mutalisk after a lurks opening then i don't see why it'd not be good to have +1 missile in each base in order to prevent more effectively the drops in case you didn't intercept them (lurks in the expands).
Believe me, I already did crazy things way before the koreans were able to pull them publicy. And guess what ? They finally did it. It's just that they weren't ready to do some unorthodox things in live, and think that our theories were absolutely wrong (all mechanics remember? Or maybe cauz they don't want to change a few their strat since they're good enough to make them win).
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Oh yeah about guardians issue : Well i've played enough games to think that they aren't really worth it since when terrans see greater spire (which they mostly do) they will go 2 ports wraiths / vessels which is a pain. Surprisingly i think making 12 devourers are good because of 3 reasons :
-If they go wraiths they're fucked because of splash damage / ovi speed (like i said personal preference) but that only works against noobs.
-If they go vessels then it's always good to waste their irradiates in devourers than lurks right ? Not to mention that they have a lot of armor which make them hard to die against marines when you're chasing vessels.
-It cost only 600 gas. The minerals we have already plenty of them if you're using savior mass drone's style.
Note that the devourer thing is only theory. Guardians are already a pain if you don't play maps like LT and didn't waste their irradiate to lurks (it's already hard even when they spend irradiate on lurks anyway).
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Raiz:
Please try again to support your original claim for overlord speed. It's impossible. I want you to admit you're wrong at least about this point. You cannot use the word 'preference' to justify an action, there is always optimal and non-optimal.
What you're referring to on Lost Temple with Boxer picking off the overlords... those were the first two overlords... nothing to do with overlord speed... just Boxer's excellent understanding of overlord pathing to the cliffs.
Also I've already mentioned this in my prior posts, but you seem to be forgetting that by making more mutalisk, you reduce the number of lurkers you will have. And I'm telling you, you'll need all your lurkers and to fight him at your front door to kill the terran ball, and 6 fucking mutalisk instead of 5~ lurkers aren't going to put you ahead.
I did mention there was a sliver of benefit if they did not turret up AT ALL. But a good terran would maybe build a few turrets mid-game, and respond to your muta harass with keeping an M&M group at home. Of course, if you want to assume your opponent is terribad why not just 4 pool? Assuming a terran won't adapt to 7 new mutalisk in the midgame when he has superior m&m upgrades is a critical misunderstanding.
Also, don't mock the korean play. They play starcraft for a living, would you doubt their methods? Everything they do is designed for top tier competition, if you want to assume your opponent is less then the best, that's your mistake, and it will hamper your own development as a player.
Lurker --> Mutalisk can definitely win you the game. Should it win you the game? No.
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going mutas after lurker only works as a surprise. its not something standard and you shouldnt do it every game. investing 900+ gas into mutas in the midgame will stall your lurker production/tech way too much, and the mutas are past their point of effectiveness at that point anyway. you want them to stop drops?? you dont need to spend 1000 gas to stop drops. use scourge/sunks/lings.
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yeah, think about it--288 gas per min per geyser, 3 geysers means that 1k gas is about 80 seconds worth of gas production. in 80 seconds, with your standard 4 raxes, 1 fac, 1 port, the t will have 12 more rines, 1 more tank, and 1/2 of a vessel done...
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Man, mutalisk looks alot like multitask
Question. Is it smart to get a fake spire and go 3hatch lurkers, hiding the den?
And I always thought about missile up to going lurkers. I'll take ascenders and years of progaming as an ok.
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I repeat:
Go watch this replay then report back:
http://teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=758
Are you saying Savior should not have won this game? You are a retard.
Mutas after lurker aren't a good option every game, but depending on circumstances, they can be very effective.
For instance: Terran goes FE and then sees you go lurkers and throws down 2 factories while on only 2 rax, or even while on 3 rax. In this circumstance, the Terran will more easily be able to push sooner against the lurkers, but if you follow up with muta, you can kill his reinforcements. If he tries to force it, you can stall until you're ready to crush his army, putting him right away in a bad position. His only option is to wait until he has switched over to vessels, has more rax, and has marine upgrades going. But he's already invested so heavily in the tanks, meaning it will take TIME for him to get that tech ready.
I think most people are coming into this thread thinking about the Terran's build as if it were designed in order to counter mutas, not a build designed to face off against lurks.
BTW, I'm not sure anyone said this, but if you go 3 hatch lurkers, it's imperative to start upgrades very early. If the Terran gets ahead of you in upgrades, you're hosed.
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Regarding the fake spire, I always found it not efficient to hide zerg buildings since ... you can't "hide" it and it is very easy to scout. What happens if they get lucky and scan / scouted den instead of spire.. that makes it totally useless.
Regarding the upgrades, even if you have a critical mass of lurkers, the 2 shot marines is VERY important if you do lurker traps or just the fact that you can make more flanks with less amounts of lurkers. On lower level play (still somewhat competitive) I ALWAYS make a lot of lurker traps, or even just spreading lurkers out since people generally do not spread vessels and bunch them up either behind or in the center of their army, fearing scourges.
And yes you can make mutalisks after lurks but only after you have a steady econ going. What use is mixing mutas with lruks? 3 mutas and 2 lurks after initial pop? That is Totally useless. Even still I believe they are only usefull as guardians. many people fail to use guardians because they like to hide them behind the ridges or just in bulks by themselves. What I found really useful is setting them right ontop of my lurks and set lurks out of tank range, then go for a slow push or flank.
About overlords, I can only think of getting speed when you break a LARGE terran ball or front entrance of a turtling terran. It doesnt always work(3/10 of the time? although it might be because of my low apm ... ='[ ) but it gives you a few moments to cast your plague/ swarm and rush in. First thing you do is to position your guardians and lrukers(unburrow) along with some scourges and overlords outside of the terrans range. The first thing a terran does 9/10 times is either scan or send vessels to take out something( be it a defier, lurker or guardian). Once you see a glimpse of his vessel bulk( as I said earlier, people do not have enough apm to seperate everything and vessels are usually bunched together), you rush in with all your units and cast some swarms( doesnt have to be perfect, but must atleast cover some units) the marines will hit the ovies first and ignore your scourges. While you can scourge the vessels that are trying to irradicate your units.
That huge block of words is actually not as apm intensive as you think. ie.
1-3 unit group , 5 defier, scourges , 6 overlord
step one : send everything in ( not apm intensive ) 1 -> right click, 2 -> right click, etc.
step two: cast swarms ( a bit harder and this is usually where it fails ='[ )
step three:clone scourges ( VERY easy with a bit of practice )
step four : burrow lurks
If terran unseiges, its gg him since guardians will be picking off units as the leave and if terran decides to fight you have AMPLE time to burrow lurks. Marines shouldnt target your units because of ovies. To pull this off you really need decent apm because ovies dies VERY VERY FAST.
I know this is a 3-hatch lurk thread, but I forgot when I was typing @_@ sorry =[
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Hiding Zerg buildings is okay if you 3 hatch and is actually good if you manage to clear his initial scouting SCV early enough. You can force him to waste scans trying to find the tech and every scan he wastes makes it harder for him to deal with early game lurkers.
Hiding Zerg tech is NOT about winning the game, but about getting a slight advantage to help push you over the top.
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Two points that I will hit and never respond to this thread again about:
1) The most crucial part of this build is scourging the T's first science vessel. The longer he has to go with scan only, the more effective this build is.
2) Mutalisk after lurker is extremely powerful, because it FORCES THE T BACK TO HIS BASE like it does when you open muta. If they spent money on turrets already, you don't need to necessarily harass and engage them like you would have to with a 3 hatch muta build because you already have an economic advantage from them spending, but if they don't have them, the threat alone of 12 mutas flying in and wreaking havoc on their base is sufficient to force them to give you map control while they get turrets up. Take a fourth gas while teching hive. Also, mutalisk switch allows you to effectively deal with a 2 factory tank pump, which is a strong counter to this build.
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BUT WAIT
On May 22 2008 04:59 tehAscender wrote:
You fucking mention overlord with speed. You just threw all your creditability out the fucking window. Overlords without speed, positioned can see the dropships, what the fuck do you need to waste 150 gas for on speed? All good players kill dropships with scourge (as you mentioned), why do we need mutalisk? I do admit there is some benefit, but not enough benefit to warrant creating an entire new batch of mutalisk (this is a reference to 3 hatch open mutalisk versus 3 hatch open lurker).
Are you really trying to say that you're better off not having speed vs terran? How are you supposed to position lords around the map?
Regarding the +1 missle attack. I have thought about this too, but most progamers do not get missle. The rationale I have developed to support what progamers do in practice is that, past the mid-game you should have a critical amount of lurkers that 2 hits versus 3 hits is almost irrelevant. In addition, a +1 melee attack to your ground force is just that much more valuable in the end game.
That's like saying +1 attack is useless in pvz because you should have a critical amount of zealots.
K I'm done.
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IIRC, people don't get +1 missle attacks because stim allows lurkers to still kill them in two shots.
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On May 23 2008 05:57 5HITCOMBO wrote:
2) Mutalisk after lurker is extremely powerful, because it FORCES THE T BACK TO HIS BASE like it does when you open muta. If they spent money on turrets already, you don't need to necessarily harass and engage them like you would have to with a 3 hatch muta build because you already have an economic advantage from them spending, but if they don't have them, the threat alone of 12 mutas flying in and wreaking havoc on their base is sufficient to force them to give you map control while they get turrets up. Take a fourth gas while teching hive. Also, mutalisk switch allows you to effectively deal with a 2 factory tank pump, which is a strong counter to this build.
this is not true. a muta opening forces the terran back to his base because at that point in the game, he doesnt have enough marines to both deal with the threat of your mutas and move out to pressure you. 2 or 3 minutes after that timing and he definitely will have enough marines to render your mutas useless and move out to pressure your 3rd expo. this is why timing your lurkers correctly is so important when you open with mutas.
so now you say to make mutas after a lurker opening to bring a terran back to their base, but the problem with this is your muta timing now comes at the time when terran has enough marines to deal with your harass AND move out. sure, the surprise of the mutas might make the terran bring back some of his army to defend, but its going to bother him for like 10 seconds while he does that. he can still go on the offensive because by this time hes going to have 5-6 rax.
when you open 3 hatch muta, theres a 2-3 minute window where your mutas pose a threat to the terran and keeps him in his base. after a while hes able to move out (why?? cuz hes built up a sizeable marine force). so if youre opening lurker, you pass up that timing where your mutas would've been effective. why the hell would you build mutas after that?
muta after lurker is not anywhere near 'extremely powerful' and i have no idea how you can say it forces the terran back to his base the same way it does when you open muta. mutas at 7 minutes are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from mutas at 10 minutes.
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On May 23 2008 06:01 5HITCOMBO wrote:BUT WAIT Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 04:59 tehAscender wrote:
You fucking mention overlord with speed. You just threw all your creditability out the fucking window. Overlords without speed, positioned can see the dropships, what the fuck do you need to waste 150 gas for on speed? All good players kill dropships with scourge (as you mentioned), why do we need mutalisk? I do admit there is some benefit, but not enough benefit to warrant creating an entire new batch of mutalisk (this is a reference to 3 hatch open mutalisk versus 3 hatch open lurker).
Are you really trying to say that you're better off not having speed vs terran? How are you supposed to position lords around the map? Show nested quote +Regarding the +1 missle attack. I have thought about this too, but most progamers do not get missle. The rationale I have developed to support what progamers do in practice is that, past the mid-game you should have a critical amount of lurkers that 2 hits versus 3 hits is almost irrelevant. In addition, a +1 melee attack to your ground force is just that much more valuable in the end game. That's like saying +1 attack is useless in pvz because you should have a critical amount of zealots. K I'm done.
no its not like saying a +1 attack is useless in pvz. lurkers can attack many units at once, so when you burrow a group of 12 lurkers, chances are that more than 2 lurkers are going to end up attacking a single marine, so itll die whether or not you have the +1 missile upgrade. a single lurker also is going to hit many marines at once, so pretty much every marine is going to end up getting hit by more than 2 lurkers at once. zealots attack one zergling at a time, its completely different.
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+1 attack for lurkers isn't useless, but it's not necessary The reason is two-fold:
1.) In large army confrontations, you have many lurkers ripping through marines simultaneously. More than 2 lurkers will hit, so your lurker attack upgrade won't make much difference.
2.) He will likely engage you using stim (duh). This takes care of the small army confrontations case since after using stim, it's going to be only 2 shots to kill a marine until a medic can full heal it up. Basically, who wins will be determined much more by his marine control than by your upgrade, since if he spreads well or if he spine dodges, then even with upgrades you won't do much damage, but if he doesn't spread well, he'll be streaming in just stimmed marines (which the medics won't have had time to fully heal) into your lurkers for that 2 shot kill.
I think that lurker spines are not a waste to upgrade, but aren't necessary either. I don't usually bother upgrading Zerg ground range attacks unless I plan on using hydras. That is true both for ZvT and ZvP.
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On May 22 2008 08:38 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2008 13:53 stk01001 wrote: Also, I believe someone (blu-ray) mentioned a transition into mutalisk after having first gone lurker. This is absolute garbage. He's a poor player with 8 posts that probably doesn't even play zerg. You absolutely don't have the gas for this.
Furthermore, it doesn't make sense logically, since the whole point of mutalisk are to take advantage of a timing where the terran does not have enough marines to fend this attack off after fast expanding, thus forcing the turrets. The only sliver of benefit this has, is assuming the terran does not turret up, and you have good muta micro. Note that, this reverse-transition could still potentially lose you the game, as the terran pressures your bases, and your mutalisk transition crumbles to a critical amount of m&m pounding your front door.
If your mutamicro was good enough to make this work in the first place. You probably should have just opened with mutalisk. Yea, you should NEVER go muta AFTER lurkers... especially since the Terran is obviously going to get Vessels to deal with lurks and once terran has irradiate mutes are useless. Unless your going for guards or something it makes no sense at all. Go watch this replay then report back: http://teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=758The rep is old, so you may need a patch changer of some sort, I dunno. However, even so, this strategy still works today. Muta after lurker is fine if you know what you're doing. If you open 3 hatch muta you might do it when he's getting annoying with drops during the mid/late game, especially on a map with lots of island expos. You might say scourge are enough, but if he manages to sneak a dropship past, having some mutas around is better than a scourge only solution. You can always morph to guard later. If you open 3 hatch lurker, another option that opens up is that he might go straight 2 fact tank and go for a push, so doing a tech change to muta can slow him down (as Savior did in the replay I linked IIRC).
I watched the replay. Was entertaining don't regret it a bit.
EDIT: By the way, the version is 1.14.
However regarding your point...
00:07:34 metrosexual Hatch Mutalisk
Never makes a mutalisk after that point. To make matters worse... this replays showcases a game where the player opens up mutalisk first, when what we are clearly discussing here is lurkers first.
This replay however, did pertain to the question of +1 ranged attack. Obviously, the combo here that the zerg was trying to attain was plague + hydralisk, to ownage m&m. Some hydra sniping of science vessel was also nice, however, in the grand scheme of things I don't believe missile upgrades are justified by this replay. By the end, the zerg ('sAviOr') just had an insane amount of gas, and he could have been doing whatever the hell he wanted and still probably win.
EDIT:
Obviously when you mention the 2 factory tank push build, there is some validity to your point. Perhaps making mutalisk could be beneficial?
However, you have to take things people say with a grain of salt. Obviously, when I say, "never" that isn't quite accurate, as starcraft has an almost infinite number of potential reactions and build orders a terran can do. For example, if you open up lurkers, and the terran goes dual port wraith, this is a clear example of where a muta transition could be warranted.
However, I am still right, since the pre-face to any argument over build orders in starcraft is based on fair assumptions, modern play, and current maps. Personally, I don't remember the last time I saw double factory siege tanks. The current environment just promotes how strong science vessels are.
And thanks to your_killer for helping cover the fight against lurker --> mutalisk transitions. All of your posts I relate to and agree to with fully. <3.
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00:07:34 metrosexual Hatch Mutalisk
lol
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I think it's ok but only if the map allows a 3rd expo even if you're contained, like arcadia or loki, or if you fake a spire so that you don't get contained.
Muta after lurker used to be done all the time, but only after 2 hatch lurker. It used to be all pros ever did back when rush hour 1 was in the pro leagues. The idea was to try to harass with your faster lurkers, but if not then you could at very least take a 3rd expansion (if it was on top of a ramp) very quickly. But this was before muta control developed to where it is now where you didn't need lurkers that early to defend the 3rd expo. Your mutas come out maybe 1:30 after they usually would with a standard 3 hatch muta but it's not too late to do some harassment. The fact that mutas aren't as effective as lurkers in big battles doesn't matter because he's not going to have tanks for maybe another minute, and the 4 initial lurkers are enough vs a pure mm army. Also they don't have to be bad players to be caught unprepared.
With a 3 hatch lurker build though it's completely unviable because unless you've done some damage with your first lurkers he's already going to be ready to move out with tanks when your mutas pop.
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On May 23 2008 13:21 tehAscender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2008 08:38 Mortality wrote:On May 21 2008 13:53 stk01001 wrote: Also, I believe someone (blu-ray) mentioned a transition into mutalisk after having first gone lurker. This is absolute garbage. He's a poor player with 8 posts that probably doesn't even play zerg. You absolutely don't have the gas for this.
Furthermore, it doesn't make sense logically, since the whole point of mutalisk are to take advantage of a timing where the terran does not have enough marines to fend this attack off after fast expanding, thus forcing the turrets. The only sliver of benefit this has, is assuming the terran does not turret up, and you have good muta micro. Note that, this reverse-transition could still potentially lose you the game, as the terran pressures your bases, and your mutalisk transition crumbles to a critical amount of m&m pounding your front door.
If your mutamicro was good enough to make this work in the first place. You probably should have just opened with mutalisk. Yea, you should NEVER go muta AFTER lurkers... especially since the Terran is obviously going to get Vessels to deal with lurks and once terran has irradiate mutes are useless. Unless your going for guards or something it makes no sense at all. Go watch this replay then report back: http://teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=758The rep is old, so you may need a patch changer of some sort, I dunno. However, even so, this strategy still works today. Muta after lurker is fine if you know what you're doing. If you open 3 hatch muta you might do it when he's getting annoying with drops during the mid/late game, especially on a map with lots of island expos. You might say scourge are enough, but if he manages to sneak a dropship past, having some mutas around is better than a scourge only solution. You can always morph to guard later. If you open 3 hatch lurker, another option that opens up is that he might go straight 2 fact tank and go for a push, so doing a tech change to muta can slow him down (as Savior did in the replay I linked IIRC). I watched the replay. Was entertaining don't regret it a bit. EDIT: By the way, the version is 1.14. However regarding your point... 00:07:34 metrosexual Hatch MutaliskNever makes a mutalisk after that point. To make matters worse... this replays showcases a game where the player opens up mutalisk first, when what we are clearly discussing here is lurkers first.This replay however, did pertain to the question of +1 ranged attack. Obviously, the combo here that the zerg was trying to attain was plague + hydralisk, to ownage m&m. Some hydra sniping of science vessel was also nice, however, in the grand scheme of things I don't believe missile upgrades are justified by this replay. By the end, the zerg ('sAviOr') just had an insane amount of gas, and he could have been doing whatever the hell he wanted and still probably win. EDIT:Obviously when you mention the 2 factory tank push build, there is some validity to your point. Perhaps making mutalisk could be beneficial? However, you have to take things people say with a grain of salt. Obviously, when I say, "never" that isn't quite accurate, as starcraft has an almost infinite number of potential reactions and build orders a terran can do. For example, if you open up lurkers, and the terran goes dual port wraith, this is a clear example of where a muta transition could be warranted. However, I am still right, since the pre-face to any argument over build orders in starcraft is based on fair assumptions, modern play, and current maps. Personally, I don't remember the last time I saw double factory siege tanks. The current environment just promotes how strong science vessels are. And thanks to your_killer for helping cover the fight against lurker --> mutalisk transitions. All of your posts I relate to and agree to with fully. <3.
I apologize, I think I linked the wrong rep then. I have a rep of Savior somewhere in my old archive where he opens lurker and transitions back.
Double factory siege tanks is not as common anymore largely given changes in the map pool, improvements in muta micro, changes in Zerg strategy, improved marine control and improved timing. However, if the maps change it might get seen more again.
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Mortality:
If you have the time, take a moment, find it, and upload it cause I would definitely be interested in watching it.
I suspect, that the only way to make it work, would be good mutamicro versus stray tanks (which is kind of confusing at the pro-level). But your replay may very well convince me. I will admit my 2 fact terran knowledge is lacking.
But you admitted it yourself, the current environment does not really promote 2 fact, and we can't really have a discussion, while putting a disproportionate amount of weighting to years old builds.
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Screw it. I won't argue with you who is obviously too narrow minded by saying speed ovi isn't worth it at all. You may either be a map hacker or you don't have played enough games to understand that spending 150 gas with 2 or 3 bases is just a FUCKING bonus to see every terran's move by just spreading your overlord in no time.
While i understand you can do it by previously moving your overlord to the most strategical's points and moving your glings to where the drops are mostly about to past through, it just doesn't mean that you don't have to because not all maps allow glings to see everything + you have to be really paying attention to the minimap since glings' sight is less better than ovies.
Hell i'd even spend additionnal gas to have my ovi sight range in tier 3 just for the sake of it.
What you need to know is that i don't deny the korean's experience nor anything but you definitely can't underestimate the oldschool's experience either. Because mostly koreans are youngs and thus doesn't know EVERYTHING but just learnt it by their masters or by watching pro's games.
Why do you think Boxer is pimp ? Because he has been playing this game more than anyone that has ever existed.
About missile upgrade : I really do think if you're going to open with lurks first, having +1 attack is more effective against a large army even when you have 999 lurks simply because terran's marines have range and then they won't necessarily getting hit by your exactly 999 lurks but at best 5 of them. Like overlord, it's a bonus.
I dare you to play like 500 games with this upgrade before telling me i'm wrong, because i'm pretty sure you're just another fanboy that follow closely everything and then put it in mind without even trying it yourself.
Aw whatever i won't get on this thread again.
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LoL. Raiz dares me to try out his strategy 500 times before I can declare it wrong.
You don't need to put your hand on the stove to know you shouldn't, lest I have to do it 500 times.
So you just throw out the accusation that I'm a maphacker in addition to calling me a fanboy then run away. This course of action is truly pathetic, wtf you calling me names for over the internet?
Also, any 5 year old reading your post will realize you contradict yourself multiple times.
Mortality =( wheres my replay.
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I didn't read any of the posts other than the op, I just want to add this: don't underestimate lurk/ling first. When Jaedong first hit the scene (around the time of Savior's prime), he was known as an extremely aggressive zerg (he still is aggressive, but he plays much safer nowadays) who would switch it up sometimes using lurk/ling instead of muta/ling openings.
A great example is in http://senseofstar.blogspot.com/2007/02/legend-killer.html where he just tore up Sea (unfortunately it's not the whole game but only highlights, perhaps you can find the VOD of the game somewhere)
In order to make it work well, you must have strong ling micro and be extremely aggressive. If you reduce marine numbers early on with speedlings, you don't have to fear much of a containment and your 3rd gas isn't delayed as much as you think (if at all) while being very secure after you put it up. Less sunks and more lings will give you more map control early on. Each sunk is equivalent (money-wise, not larva-wise) to 7 lings, so if you build 2 less sunks, you have a control group more lings to play with.
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I have problem - my account is very young (lesser than 10 days) so I cannot make threads. I have 1 question with ZvT 3 Hatch to u guys. When I play 3 Hatch Muta and I start my Spire I have quite some drones. I don't know - to get drones when Spire is making or Lings? I saw sAviOr getting Lings but I saw people doing Drones as well (especially in older times ). So what sould I do? Thx in advance.
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EPT
