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Ok i've been working on my ZvT lately and it brought up alot of questions in my head. When I first started working on my ZvT, I did the usual 3hatch muta build as that was what alot of people told me to do. The build is extremely solid as you get ur 3rd gas kind of easy as you're harassing the Terran and you are pretty much set up for midgame as your macro would be pretty good. Plus if they try to do sunken break you can just add more sunkens/lings(uhmm people correct me on this if i'm wrong).
But lately i've been opening up with lurkers, and I have to say it has worked pretty well so far for me so I usually open up with it (omfg i finally reached D+ in ICCup cuz of my ZvT. I never thought i'd see the day T_T). But lately I found out that sometimes i can't keep the Terran in his base with this build and sometimes the T even contains me with turrets/bunks outside my base. So I have 3 questions:
1.) What is the proper build order for 3 hatch lurker? for example one question I have with this is what are the timings to get ur 3rd gas and what is the hive timing for this build?
2.) What do you need to do for 3 hatch lurker to work? for example do you need to get overlord drop researched to drop lurkers outside your base if T decides to try to contain you (if that's even possible)
3.) Like in the title, what are the pros and cons of 3 hatch lurker in ZvT. Like, what build is this opening/s is this good/bad against, and in what situations is this build better than opening 3 hatch muta.
Sorry if there was a thread already about 3 hatch lurkers, but I couldn't find any. The closest was a thread about 2 hatch lurks. So if there is/was a thread about 3 hatch lurker then post link. thx guys ^^
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Russian Federation386 Posts
Pros of 3 h Lurk is that if terr fucks up his micro vs lurks he's behind. Sometimes you can catch them off guard if they think u go Spire first. Also you minimize the threat of sunken break.
Cons are obviously that its harder to get 3rd gas and generally map control.
Going drops is also a good idea. I am personally fuckup up if zerg manages to drop 4+ lurkers in my base. They do so much damage I wanna cry T_T
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Pro: you're gonna have sick econ if you make it to midgame
Con: you've gotta make it to midgame. (like said above, hard to get third gas/map control from intial lake of units, esp if you aren;t good with micro)
Someone smart can go more indepth, but that's the basics really.
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you just do the same build as you'd do for 3 hatch muta except you get a hydra den when your lair is halfway done instead of getting spire when youre lair is done. you probably want to add more speedlings too. maybe have about 2 groups of speedlings by the time your lurks pop.
yes, you will be contained. when a T sees that you're opening lurker he'll set up his initial mnm outside of your choke. this is one of the downsides of opening lurker. just use your first lurkers and your 2 groups of speedlings and break out of it. its a lot more difficult than having him run back to his main when you open muta, but its doable. he shouldnt be able to set up an entire siege though...he shouldnt be able to get enough bunkers/turrets to truely keep you contained. something else is probably going wrong in that case, post a rep or something.
a pro of opening lurker is that once you break out of that initial contain and take your 3rd, you pretty much have your 3rd secured because youll have a bunch of lurkers to defend with. muta opening gets you a faster 3rd (you dont have to spend time breaking out of your nat, so you get to take your 3rd earlier), but you have to time your lurks right so that theyre ready by the time he has enough marines to defend his base from muta AND move out to pressure your 3rd. thats the tradeoff.
opening lurker has probably worked well for you at the D/D+ level bcuz the terrans cant micro, so lurkers are really strong. lurkers punish terran for having bad micro much more so than muta, which instead requires you to have really good muta micro to be effective. overall i feel that muta openings are better. theyre more versatile, they get you a faster 3rd, and you dont have to deal with breaking out of that initial containment that youre talking about (and if you are being contained, its much easier to break out of), so i would say keep opening muta right now even though you might lose more with it, itll help you develop the proper micro needed to make it work, and eventually you want muta to be your standard opening anyway.
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United States43203 Posts
A lot of terrans have been opening FE 5 rax mnm on maps like Katrina (the firebathero build) because it can kill the zergs 3rd base with ease. Tossgirl used it effectively on the intel classic. So standard ZvT gets raped hard by it but the 3 hatch lurk variant, which they used to counter the firebathero build, combined with constant hold lurk lamery owns it. So if you're playing tossgirl then go 3 hatch lurk. Or if you suspect the fbh build.
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I also like opening Lurkers ^^. I'm around the D+ level also and find that most terrans make lots of turrets as if I was going mutas anyways which gives you a bit of an edge. Also I can't multitask while muta harassing to save my life.
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Build is simple as YoUr_KiLLeR said. I want to mention few very important things about playing Lurkers. First of all - do not play it like all-in: many people play 3 hatch Lurker as All-in, without perspective to the future. If you get contained, break this contain with your fast Lurkers. I want to mention that when you start morphing your first Lurkers, place Spire instantly. Also - when attacking I really advice you to get another main (or other ramped/easily defendable gas expansion) with 2 Lurkers up the ramp (almost impossible to attack expo without drops/moving Terran Ball). After you act with your Lurkers I reccomend you to at least add some scourges (better option is to add some Mutas too) when Spire is done and start Evolution Chamber (Carapace upgrade all the time; melee next of course  ). Now you have to decide: are you going to play Lair tech for more time (for rookies) or fast Hive (more advanced; add Queen Nest when you start Carapace). From this time this is just normal ZvT with defilers and so on.
P.S. First post! :D
P.P.S. I of course examine how to do standard 3 Hatch Lurker (I mean not-allin).
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the thing is, a 2rax fast tank build will rip this apart if he arrives at your nat right before your lurks morph.
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I do not think so. You just get more sunkens in backward position to keep him pushing with tanks without breaking inside. In the mean time - you get Lurkers.
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Russian Federation386 Posts
A build I've seen recently in Luxury vs Ruby game on Andromeda is rather interesting.
Lux opened 3 hatch lurkers, but he started hive around the same time he started his first lurks. He just used mass lings to keep Ruby's first mnm at bay. This way he managed to brake T's nat and force a lift with very fast swarm push.
Although Lux lost, I think its a very hard build to counter on lower levels O_O
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On May 20 2008 13:36 Blu-Ray wrote:
I do not think so. You just get more sunkens in backward position to keep him pushing with tanks without breaking inside. In the mean time - you get Lurkers.
I just played a guy who faked a 3 hatch muta then went into lurker--I went 2 rax into tank and delayed ebay after seeing that he wasn't saving larva. The result was that I got 2 tanks and 1.5 groups of mnm onto his front door about 20 seconds before his lurks popped. i didn't crack his nat but i did force him to make about 5 new sunks and killed 2 that were already standing, plus three that were morphing, before his first lurks came. Properly microed, 1.5 groups of mnm can kill about 2 lurks, tanks kill another 2 with scan, and with only 2 bases, zerg can't afford that many lurks in his first batch. kept him from getting his third for a good minute, and his decreased mobility and late hive then meant that I could get my third at the same time that he did.
Against 1 rax FE, if the T knows you're going lurks you're pretty much screwed because the T will simply go take all those ~500 mins he would have spent on turrets and go 2fac with an earlier 3rd, which means your macro adv is nullified, and he has more tanks to deal with your greater lurk count. (Since your third and therefore your hive tech is delayed, T can afford to delay vessels a bit unless you feel comfortable going 2 base hive with a late third which means about 5-6 less lurks and insta gg to a good 2fac push.)
Without muta harass, Z simply put, has only a few options for map control if the T has good micro and multitask and both players go standard BOs. One option is drops, which is a huge sacrifice of gas if you research it before T has enough rine numbers to defend against it (meaning that a good T can sniff it out and roll over you); plus most T's will probably leave a group of rines near their base to guard against backstabs anyhow.
I guess one of the best ways to do this, if you were going to do this, would be to fake muta, save larva, and act like you're going muta until the very last minute. But of course, if he's like Nada in the replay vs Stryker and he knows the timings so well he scans your main at the exact moment your mutas should pop... but if he's not, the foolery could work.
Just my 2 cents.
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Yeah exactly but I want to mention that when u go Lurkers u can still get Spire and Mutas (many people seem to be too dumb to know this )!!!!!11111oneoneone Doing some extra aggresive moves with lurkers (not marked like t_co said) will force him to, u know, get some tanks or so... Just to be prepared for fightning Lurkers (maybe he will contain u so u have to do contain break). In the meantime u can prepare next expo (guarded by the 2 Lurkers on the ramp) and get those damn Mutas and harras him. As many Zerg players think that getting Spire after Lurker is forbidden, that many Terrans think that they do not have to fear harras from Mutas when enemy is going Lurker. Of course he might be good player and know ur meanings but I think that if u are pretty good at controling ur Lurkers (ahhh those hold Lurkers ) u will be able to - with the help of harras - make game into standard ZvT. Remember - this is basically getting same stuff in different order; Lurker and Muta build are not so different, just swapping Spire/Hydra Den place in the build order.
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Ahh nice advice about getting mutas after lurks are done. btw when do you get ur second evo? after 1-1 or while upping armor?
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Hmmm... It depends of ur game style. Most players add second evo when 1+ carapace is near to be done.
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Gotta need a good build order, that gives you as many lings as possible, like 24 lings and 3 lurkers, they matter more than lurkers early game.
An early +1 carapace is probably a must too.
The muta switch is also possible and really good vs stuff like 2 rax -> fact timing attacks. Although i wouldnt recommend it at all vs all of these terrans that go 4 barracks +1 weapons really early as of late.
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On May 19 2008 21:59 ChkChk.Boom wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
1.) What is the proper build order for 3 hatch lurker? for example one question I have with this is what are the timings to get ur 3rd gas and what is the hive timing for this build?
2.) What do you need to do for 3 hatch lurker to work? for example do you need to get overlord drop researched to drop lurkers outside your base if T decides to try to contain you (if that's even possible)
3.) Like in the title, what are the pros and cons of 3 hatch lurker in ZvT. Like, what build is this opening/s is this good/bad against, and in what situations is this build better than opening 3 hatch muta.
Sorry if there was a thread already about 3 hatch lurkers, but I couldn't find any. The closest was a thread about 2 hatch lurks. So if there is/was a thread about 3 hatch lurker then post link. thx guys ^^
I primarily agree with your_killer and t_co, I will summarize the points they make and try to develop them further.
1. What is the proper build order.
As already mentioned, same as 3 hatch mutalisk but drop den 50% lair completion. To develop this further I would recommend to place the den in a more hidden spot and the spire in an obvious spot. Obvious there are mind games here, but I usually take my chances assuming the terran will scan the main and sunken line. (Therefore place the den with the third hatchery; hidden).
In addition, after lair tech begins, research ling speed ASAP, and when lair completes research lurker (obviously) and drop a spire when gas permits (muta fake; causes terran to waste money on turrets, entire point of build to catch terran off guard). You should generally make 1 sunken early game to prevent marine only push, saturate your patches with drones, then make 1-2 groups of zerglings.
I believe another variation of this, would be to drop an evo chamber after lair begins, and research carapace. This build should probably forfeit the fake mutalisk spire, but will benefit from early +1.
Naturally, securing your third base will be later, but there is a potential to expand twice (especially to bases with ramps), instead of just once. I believe this is a primary hidden gem of this build. When you break the terran contain you can potentially secure your 3rd and 4th gas very quickly. The natural terran counter is dropship play, and of course scourge and sunken (along with normal lurker and zergling micro) are the counter to this.
And of course, transition into hive. You ask about the 2nd evo chamber timing. I personally usually get it after I have my third base fully operational (minerals and gas); around the time I drop my queen's nest.
2. What do you need to do for 3 hatch lurker to work?
Well, you mention drop. In my personal experience, if you're teching drop you're going for a very aggressive build, that I would describe as 'all in'. If the map doesn't permit some sneaky lurker drops on the mineral fields I don't believe in this. Think about it, committing to overlord drop and speed is very gas intensive.
You need good game sense, and understand position of your army. It's important your lurkers be burrowed before the marines get there. For example, you notice the terran army move toward your third expansion, therefore you should transfer some of your lurkers to help defend there. Lurkers unburrowed moving in to engage a marine medic army is just not as effective.
Furthermore, developing this concept of army positioning, I believe nydus canal is perhaps more important to help you cut down on sunkens and focus more on drones (mid-late game). Hard to describe what I mean here, but basically you can make less lurkers/zerglings and more drones if your army can instantly transports between bases. Creating a stronger timing attack later.
Also, I believe someone (blu-ray) mentioned a transition into mutalisk after having first gone lurker. This is absolute garbage. He's a poor player with 8 posts that probably doesn't even play zerg. You absolutely don't have the gas for this.
Furthermore, it doesn't make sense logically, since the whole point of mutalisk are to take advantage of a timing where the terran does not have enough marines to fend this attack off after fast expanding, thus forcing the turrets. The only sliver of benefit this has, is assuming the terran does not turret up, and you have good muta micro. Note that, this reverse-transition could still potentially lose you the game, as the terran pressures your bases, and your mutalisk transition crumbles to a critical amount of m&m pounding your front door.
If your mutamicro was good enough to make this work in the first place. You probably should have just opened with mutalisk.
In addition, you mention Terran containment. This strategy is best countered by speedlings to harass the terran mainbase, and make reinforcing more difficult. Then when you have a sizable amount of lurkers, take out the intial m and m group.
3. Closing Notes: Pros & Cons
I believe this build is more ideal for lower tier players (you mention you are D+). You probably get the sense of feeling more powerful, because you can definitely take the game with that first lurker group assuming your opponent is not prepared. With muta, it's a longer battle, where you shouldn't be attempting to win with your muta group... just delay and harass.
Judging on what you say about your skill, I would recommend a 4th hatchery in base for additional lings, and be more 'all-in' with a potential transition into a 5th hatchery for a 3rd base. In addition, tailored specifically for you, I would consider reasonable early hive tech, for a defiler finisher.
See Jaedong : Memory. Briefly, Jaedong is really trying to open mutalisk, but Memory very nicely picks off a couple overlords screwing up the timing... this is where Jaedong decides to go lurker instead. Note this will probably differ slightly for you since the map is Andromeda with an additional safe mineral only.
+ Show Spoiler +
Generally as someone already said, I would recommend the 3 hatch muta opening as it is more flexible and develops key zerg player skills (multitask etc.).
I personally experimented with the 3 base lurker fake because I got tired of being too predictable. Generally when I did this build, I felt that I could beat poor players easily, but against a good opponent, I felt I was playing more of an uphill battle, in comparison to if I had opened mutalisk.
Hope this helped.
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Also, I believe someone (blu-ray) mentioned a transition into mutalisk after having first gone lurker. This is absolute garbage. He's a poor player with 8 posts that probably doesn't even play zerg. You absolutely don't have the gas for this.
Furthermore, it doesn't make sense logically, since the whole point of mutalisk are to take advantage of a timing where the terran does not have enough marines to fend this attack off after fast expanding, thus forcing the turrets. The only sliver of benefit this has, is assuming the terran does not turret up, and you have good muta micro. Note that, this reverse-transition could still potentially lose you the game, as the terran pressures your bases, and your mutalisk transition crumbles to a critical amount of m&m pounding your front door.
If your mutamicro was good enough to make this work in the first place. You probably should have just opened with mutalisk.
Yea, you should NEVER go muta AFTER lurkers... especially since the Terran is obviously going to get Vessels to deal with lurks and once terran has irradiate mutes are useless. Unless your going for guards or something it makes no sense at all.
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i prefer starting with mutas-lings... harrassing as much as possible, probably killing refineryes too. as soon as i have 1 control muta i go to harass, while that i tech to lurker, and try to get into his base with a few speedlings. than with lurkers + mutas/lings - depending on his build, i try to kill his nat at least, or contain, and exp.
If he tries some timing attack u can get into trouble, since at the beggining u need to build a strong macro, but a ling at his gate, and a few sunkz immadietly can solve ur problem.
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Ekhem... This is 3 HATCH LURKER thread not 3 Hatch Muta. 3 Hatch Muta is supposed to be most classic build for ZvT. I dont see any reason to just say classic strat on thread that was did for other reason...
But really - 3 Hatch Muta is better if u have decent micromanagement and you do not play total noobs.
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Wtf ? No mutas after lurks ? Why do you keep your mutas alive then ?...
The real purpose of it is more for back reinforcement in order to kill drops for instance.
They also can be good to kills somes undefended tanks that could stay on their base or were about to move in the really point which you can easily take it off. Obviously you have to NOT stack them. Only do it if you think the vessels aren't near your mutas.
I'd say that it's definitely not garbage. It helps for those who aren't 100% aware of the minimap and they didn't see the drops. Otherwise maybe overlord (possibly speed) with scourges are enough.
Edit : Oh yeah also : if you have 2 evolves, get missile first (after carapace) in order to nullify +1 AND +2 marine's armor.
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EPT
