I think it's ok but only if the map allows a 3rd expo even if you're contained, like arcadia or loki, or if you fake a spire so that you don't get contained.

Muta after lurker used to be done all the time, but only after 2 hatch lurker. It used to be all pros ever did back when rush hour 1 was in the pro leagues. The idea was to try to harass with your faster lurkers, but if not then you could at very least take a 3rd expansion (if it was on top of a ramp) very quickly. But this was before muta control developed to where it is now where you didn't need lurkers that early to defend the 3rd expo. Your mutas come out maybe 1:30 after they usually would with a standard 3 hatch muta but it's not too late to do some harassment. The fact that mutas aren't as effective as lurkers in big battles doesn't matter because he's not going to have tanks for maybe another minute, and the 4 initial lurkers are enough vs a pure mm army. Also they don't have to be bad players to be caught unprepared.

With a 3 hatch lurker build though it's completely unviable because unless you've done some damage with your first lurkers he's already going to be ready to move out with tanks when your mutas pop.

Mortality

United States4790 Posts

May 23 2008 05:44 GMT

#43

On May 23 2008 13:21 tehAscender wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 22 2008 08:38 Mortality wrote:

On May 21 2008 13:53 stk01001 wrote:

Also, I believe someone (blu-ray) mentioned a transition into mutalisk after having first gone lurker. This is absolute garbage. He's a poor player with 8 posts that probably doesn't even play zerg. You absolutely don't have the gas for this.

Furthermore, it doesn't make sense logically, since the whole point of mutalisk are to take advantage of a timing where the terran does not have enough marines to fend this attack off after fast expanding, thus forcing the turrets. The only sliver of benefit this has, is assuming the terran does not turret up, and you have good muta micro. Note that, this reverse-transition could still potentially lose you the game, as the terran pressures your bases, and your mutalisk transition crumbles to a critical amount of m&m pounding your front door.

If your mutamicro was good enough to make this work in the first place. You probably should have just opened with mutalisk.

Yea, you should NEVER go muta AFTER lurkers... especially since the Terran is obviously going to get Vessels to deal with lurks and once terran has irradiate mutes are useless. Unless your going for guards or something it makes no sense at all.

Go watch this replay then report back:

http://teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=758

The rep is old, so you may need a patch changer of some sort, I dunno. However, even so, this strategy still works today.

Muta after lurker is fine if you know what you're doing. If you open 3 hatch muta you might do it when he's getting annoying with drops during the mid/late game, especially on a map with lots of island expos. You might say scourge are enough, but if he manages to sneak a dropship past, having some mutas around is better than a scourge only solution. You can always morph to guard later.

If you open 3 hatch lurker, another option that opens up is that he might go straight 2 fact tank and go for a push, so doing a tech change to muta can slow him down (as Savior did in the replay I linked IIRC).

I watched the replay. Was entertaining don't regret it a bit.

EDIT: By the way, the version is 1.14.

However regarding your point...
00:07:34 metrosexual Hatch Mutalisk

Never makes a mutalisk after that point. To make matters worse... this replays showcases a game where the player opens up mutalisk first, when what we are clearly discussing here is lurkers first.

This replay however, did pertain to the question of +1 ranged attack. Obviously, the combo here that the zerg was trying to attain was plague + hydralisk, to ownage m&m. Some hydra sniping of science vessel was also nice, however, in the grand scheme of things I don't believe missile upgrades are justified by this replay. By the end, the zerg ('sAviOr') just had an insane amount of gas, and he could have been doing whatever the hell he wanted and still probably win.

EDIT:
Obviously when you mention the 2 factory tank push build, there is some validity to your point. Perhaps making mutalisk could be beneficial?

However, you have to take things people say with a grain of salt. Obviously, when I say, "never" that isn't quite accurate, as starcraft has an almost infinite number of potential reactions and build orders a terran can do. For example, if you open up lurkers, and the terran goes dual port wraith, this is a clear example of where a muta transition could be warranted.

However, I am still right, since the pre-face to any argument over build orders in starcraft is based on fair assumptions, modern play, and current maps. Personally, I don't remember the last time I saw double factory siege tanks. The current environment just promotes how strong science vessels are.

And thanks to your_killer for helping cover the fight against lurker --> mutalisk transitions. All of your posts I relate to and agree to with fully. <3.

I apologize, I think I linked the wrong rep then. I have a rep of Savior somewhere in my old archive where he opens lurker and transitions back.

Double factory siege tanks is not as common anymore largely given changes in the map pool, improvements in muta micro, changes in Zerg strategy, improved marine control and improved timing. However, if the maps change it might get seen more again.

tehAscender

94 Posts

May 23 2008 09:37 GMT

#44

Mortality:
If you have the time, take a moment, find it, and upload it cause I would definitely be interested in watching it.

I suspect, that the only way to make it work, would be good mutamicro versus stray tanks (which is kind of confusing at the pro-level). But your replay may very well convince me. I will admit my 2 fact terran knowledge is lacking.

But you admitted it yourself, the current environment does not really promote 2 fact, and we can't really have a discussion, while putting a disproportionate amount of weighting to years old builds.

RaiZ

2813 Posts

May 24 2008 03:13 GMT

#45

Screw it. I won't argue with you who is obviously too narrow minded by saying speed ovi isn't worth it at all. You may either be a map hacker or you don't have played enough games to understand that spending 150 gas with 2 or 3 bases is just a FUCKING bonus to see every terran's move by just spreading your overlord in no time.
While i understand you can do it by previously moving your overlord to the most strategical's points and moving your glings to where the drops are mostly about to past through, it just doesn't mean that you don't have to because not all maps allow glings to see everything + you have to be really paying attention to the minimap since glings' sight is less better than ovies.
Hell i'd even spend additionnal gas to have my ovi sight range in tier 3 just for the sake of it.
What you need to know is that i don't deny the korean's experience nor anything but you definitely can't underestimate the oldschool's experience either. Because mostly koreans are youngs and thus doesn't know EVERYTHING but just learnt it by their masters or by watching pro's games.
Why do you think Boxer is pimp ? Because he has been playing this game more than anyone that has ever existed.
About missile upgrade : I really do think if you're going to open with lurks first, having +1 attack is more effective against a large army even when you have 999 lurks simply because terran's marines have range and then they won't necessarily getting hit by your exactly 999 lurks but at best 5 of them. Like overlord, it's a bonus.
I dare you to play like 500 games with this upgrade before telling me i'm wrong, because i'm pretty sure you're just another fanboy that follow closely everything and then put it in mind without even trying it yourself.

Aw whatever i won't get on this thread again.

tehAscender

94 Posts

May 24 2008 07:33 GMT

#46

LoL. Raiz dares me to try out his strategy 500 times before I can declare it wrong.

You don't need to put your hand on the stove to know you shouldn't, lest I have to do it 500 times.

So you just throw out the accusation that I'm a maphacker in addition to calling me a fanboy then run away. This course of action is truly pathetic, wtf you calling me names for over the internet?

Also, any 5 year old reading your post will realize you contradict yourself multiple times.

Mortality =( wheres my replay.

ArC_man

United States2798 Posts

May 24 2008 08:46 GMT

#47

I didn't read any of the posts other than the op, I just want to add this: don't underestimate lurk/ling first. When Jaedong first hit the scene (around the time of Savior's prime), he was known as an extremely aggressive zerg (he still is aggressive, but he plays much safer nowadays) who would switch it up sometimes using lurk/ling instead of muta/ling openings.

A great example is in http://senseofstar.blogspot.com/2007/02/legend-killer.html where he just tore up Sea (unfortunately it's not the whole game but only highlights, perhaps you can find the VOD of the game somewhere)

In order to make it work well, you must have strong ling micro and be extremely aggressive. If you reduce marine numbers early on with speedlings, you don't have to fear much of a containment and your 3rd gas isn't delayed as much as you think (if at all) while being very secure after you put it up. Less sunks and more lings will give you more map control early on. Each sunk is equivalent (money-wise, not larva-wise) to 7 lings, so if you build 2 less sunks, you have a control group more lings to play with.

Blu-Ray

Poland93 Posts

May 24 2008 11:20 GMT

#48

I have problem - my account is very young (lesser than 10 days) so I cannot make threads. I have 1 question with ZvT 3 Hatch to u guys. When I play 3 Hatch Muta and I start my Spire I have quite some drones. I don't know - to get drones when Spire is making or Lings? I saw sAviOr getting Lings but I saw people doing Drones as well (especially in older times

). So what sould I do? Thx in advance.