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[zvp] I prefer 12hatch, and haven't been cannoned in a long time, though I usually can't 12hatch because they block with probe, and I end up 12pooling, then making hatch at nat at 12, though it's sometimes delayed by the probe until my lings are out. If he FE'd, is it better to just place hatch at nat away from minerals and then making 3rd at the minerals, or waiting to make hatch at minerals after lings drive probe away, if I'm definitely 3hatching regardless?
This is probably in 3503945 other threads, but what are some basic zvp 3hatch bos vs fe p? I almost always 3hatch before making 3rd base hatch, 13hatch if I 12hatch expo, 14 or 15 if I 12pool'd or 9'd after ovy. I find myself having many things to use gas for, and very little gas, when should I be getting gas in main and nat, and when (on python) should I get my 3rd base hatch?
12pool 12hatch vs 9pool after ovy, 14 hatch (droned til 11, made 6 lings), what are your thoughts? I've never been a big fan of 9pooling, and 9pool afterv ovy feels a little more comfortable, I do this a lot on iccup when I expect cheese, or if they go random.
If I want to get a fast evo for spore and +1 armour, when should I make evo? And should I make lair before the armour, or armour first? 99% of the time my ovy can see his forge, and when he gets cyber, what kind of things am I looking for to decide when to get lair, speed, and +1 armour?
When should I add a second evo for melee upgrades?
[zvz] What kind of things should I consider if I go 9pool after ovy, drone to 11? If I have no idea what he's doing yet, is it safer to take my nat, get gas, and if I get gas, lair or speed first? And if I speed, should I take off gas, or keep on to lair? It feels like I auto lose vs z who 12hatch expo'd, because if I get speed or lair it's not fast enough to get an advantage over the z, his lair won't be far behind if at all behind, and his ling count will be enough that I can't do much damage with speed, and if I try to expo his superior hatch count will let him easily outling me. Is 9pool after ovy inherently bad? Economically it seems to counter 9pool pretty well, but his gas tends to be faster and I can lose to a faster muta or something.
[zvt] If I 12hatch, 11pool, 13hatch, 17 gas, and plan on going muta, when should I get my nat gas?
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This topic = epic win
Zer is finally becoming a strong suit with jaedong mauling everything in his path. people might actually fear vZ matches, yes even terrans >:D
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On February 14 2008 16:04 bumatlarge wrote:
This topic = epic win
Zer is finally becoming a strong suit with jaedong mauling everything in his path. people might actually fear vZ matches, yes even terrans >:D
qft
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 14 2008 15:24 Nightmarjoo wrote:
[zvp] I prefer 12hatch, and haven't been cannoned in a long time, though I usually can't 12hatch because they block with probe, and I end up 12pooling, then making hatch at nat at 12, though it's sometimes delayed by the probe until my lings are out. If he FE'd, is it better to just place hatch at nat away from minerals and then making 3rd at the minerals, or waiting to make hatch at minerals after lings drive probe away, if I'm definitely 3hatching regardless?
This is probably in 3503945 other threads, but what are some basic zvp 3hatch bos vs fe p? I almost always 3hatch before making 3rd base hatch, 13hatch if I 12hatch expo, 14 or 15 if I 12pool'd or 9'd after ovy. I find myself having many things to use gas for, and very little gas, when should I be getting gas in main and nat, and when (on python) should I get my 3rd base hatch?
12pool 12hatch vs 9pool after ovy, 14 hatch (droned til 11, made 6 lings), what are your thoughts? I've never been a big fan of 9pooling, and 9pool afterv ovy feels a little more comfortable, I do this a lot on iccup when I expect cheese, or if they go random.
If I want to get a fast evo for spore and +1 armour, when should I make evo? And should I make lair before the armour, or armour first? 99% of the time my ovy can see his forge, and when he gets cyber, what kind of things am I looking for to decide when to get lair, speed, and +1 armour?
When should I add a second evo for melee upgrades?
[zvz] What kind of things should I consider if I go 9pool after ovy, drone to 11? If I have no idea what he's doing yet, is it safer to take my nat, get gas, and if I get gas, lair or speed first? And if I speed, should I take off gas, or keep on to lair? It feels like I auto lose vs z who 12hatch expo'd, because if I get speed or lair it's not fast enough to get an advantage over the z, his lair won't be far behind if at all behind, and his ling count will be enough that I can't do much damage with speed, and if I try to expo his superior hatch count will let him easily outling me. Is 9pool after ovy inherently bad? Economically it seems to counter 9pool pretty well, but his gas tends to be faster and I can lose to a faster muta or something.
[zvt] If I 12hatch, 11pool, 13hatch, 17 gas, and plan on going muta, when should I get my nat gas?
[zvp] I always make the hatch around the minerals leaving enough space for a properly placed hatchery.That or I just 12 pool in base and drive the probe away with 2 drones, unless they make a pylon then I just make the hatch with room for proper as I said.
The 3 hatch bo's is in a million posts. But its also in ever zvp replay these days. Dont be lazy, go look it up. I have over 160 replays on this site available for you if you want ideas.
9pool after ovie is fine. Its again a reactionary build, clearly you are trying to get the protoss to think its a standard 9 so they will make cannons and perhaps block with probes before slapping down the nexus, so make 4-6 lings and macro from there. Its a fine bo, just need to play it as it is supposed to be played.
Your upgrading question is situational. If you can, get armor before lair and towards the completion of your 3rd hatch. The overlord should see if the forge is moving, if a stargate is going down or if a robo/mass gates etc. Its fairly common sense.. dont really know what else to tell you. A huge part of success in BW is scouting. If something feels fishy it probably is. Start scouting around for proxy gates or some kind of quick 2nd expansion.
[zvz] 9pool after ovie is PURELY to absorb a 9pool. Its only slightly stronger economically so its a risk. If you think they are 9pooling do the after ovie variation. Otherwise you are worse off than having just 9pool speed. If you cant see the opponents base yet and its time for a 2nd hatch or lair your best option is lair. If you absolutely feel hatch is the order of the day, go in base. You can catch up to an expansion but there is no catching up to losing a placed hatchery. Its the kind of risks/math Z's do every day in ZvZ.
If you do 9pool speed you take 1 off gas and make lair at 100, then place 3rd back on.
[zvt] again the gas is situational. But if all is going smoothly you put the gas down at about the time the lair is finishing.
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Some Z's still brave the 12 expand (map permitting of course). This is unwise however because the modern PvZ consists 98% of the time with an FE, and with minerals the way they are a blocked cannon rush is almost ALWAYS a possibility.
if they do that u can just proxy hatch in his main 
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[Q] ZvP
Once, only once, surprisingly, I had a Toss proxy a 2 gate rush on python. I laid down sunkens in my main and took out everything he threw at me, and took the battle to his proxy. Turns out he sacrificed everything to tech to DT's and skipped sairs completely. Result: lings got slaughtered, sped to ovie speed up, mass DT's outside my main after killing my expo. When i tried to push out, he had reinforced his 6-8 DT's with a full force of goons. By the time I had a sizable muta force, I had to keep them there to fend off at my ramp. I lost because didn't scout properly and he was a better player completely, but how would you counter this? I don't have any rep, but I hope I painted a good picture. Thx in advance.
Edit: i 9 pooled btw, cause I found proxy really early, like he wanted me to find it O_O
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you should've went for hive tech and gotten plague before pushing out, when toss goes for a dt + goon combo, you need to plague the dts to weaken them and to make them visible, you don't want to waste your overlords to goons, plague the goons too before attacking them with mutalisks. After a two gate rush the toss tech will be delayed severely, if you see any evidence of a dt build immediately lay down a queens nest -> hive-> defiler mound, dts are deadly especially when they're invisible. hope that helped
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Yea probably have to work on my teching speed, i was all prepared for a lot rush too :/
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excellent, excellent writeup man. it appears i have completely misunderstood 9 pool speed.
q {ZvP}
Keep in mind im like a d+/c- zerg player. recently i have been fond of opening zvp with a 9 pool no speed for the purpose of delaying P's nexus, as he wil react by building a couple cannons.
something like:
9pool
9drone
ext trick
ovie
6 lings
expo
is it viable to build 3 drones after the pool instead of 6 lings, and then expanding yourself while his cannons warp in? essentially you would trick him into delaying his expo at the cost of 200 minerals (and a later 1st ovie), but is it worth it compared to just 12 hatching?
also, do you have any tips for playing vs reaver/sair? my preference is hydra play, aiming for lategame with defilers. sunk/spore at all expansions, spaced to force many dwebs if he goes that route. i get burrow for drones and ling scouting (although parasite seems very attractive), because i feel like air control is almost imopossible - especially on a map like RoV, where there is nowhere for land units in between the mains. generally i have the most difficulty when toss keeps 1-2 reavers (maybe a temp) at his expos, with just tons of cannons, while his main reaver sair force shoots around the map harassing me so i can't effectively attack. any general tips/strategies for facing this would be very appreciated.
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gj geoff
btw in ZvZ I see a lot of 12 pool / gas into 2 hat. 50/50 2nd hat is an expo (depends on the map) into nothing but Lings and then Muta and rely on Zerg going for too many Drones or rely on better micro. This is generally on non-ramp maps such as Blue Storm. This is good? For maps like Blue Storm / Troy / Baekmajoi etc...???
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INcontrol in a ZvT are Defilers usually a must use to come out with a win?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 15 2008 07:45 Lokust wrote:
INcontrol in a ZvT are Defilers usually a must use to come out with a win?
hehe
I can sense inexperience in you 
Read through this section, you will find lots of helpful discussion on ZvT. But yes defilers are essential to ZvT late game.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 15 2008 06:15 G5 wrote:
gj geoff
btw in ZvZ I see a lot of 12 pool / gas into 2 hat. 50/50 2nd hat is an expo (depends on the map) into nothing but Lings and then Muta and rely on Zerg going for too many Drones or rely on better micro. This is generally on non-ramp maps such as Blue Storm. This is good? For maps like Blue Storm / Troy / Baekmajoi etc...???
Yeah actually. The idea is that lings go up in worth on no ramp maps because fewer number of lings = disadvantage whereas with a ramp you can get away with fewer lings. Maps like Azalea see these kind of bo's especially given the distance between bases. For a map like bluestorm you dont see it as much because if you block the 1 ling entrance they have to go significantly further which gives SOME reaction time. But it is still very common. The thing about blue storm is given the timing 9pool speed is just more superior than the 2 hatch builds because you can either survive to muta and win there or you can outright win with both faster lings (in terms of when they reach the opponent) and also FASTER lings (in terms of mobility).
2 hatch ling disco is great and should be reserved to maps without a ramp. But also keep in mind distances from bases. 9pool speed should be the first inclination given the style of zvz these days.
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the most common build Ive seen zvz is 9pool non-speed.
Considering going speed will cost you 100 gas and delay your lair/spire, how much damage do you have to do for it to be worth it?
I'm assuming most zergs will be able to tell by the lair timing with their overlord scouting (I'm not sure of the exact timing of this) and will probably guard their ramp. In which case, your speed doesnt really help until you break their ramp.
How far should you go with lings? Until you break through when you have an advantage?
If they match ling count, they should still have a bit earlier spire... how do you react?
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oh also,
on a map like blue storm with a really wide choke, is it suicidal to do anything other than 9pool speed because of the threat of ling back stab? Are any other builds viable on that map?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 15 2008 09:25 fusionsdf wrote:
oh also,
on a map like blue storm with a really wide choke, is it suicidal to do anything other than 9pool speed because of the threat of ling back stab? Are any other builds viable on that map?
9pool after overlord is good cause it absorbs the 9pool speed with slightly better macro. 12pool 11 gas is fine too but you might need a sunk.
9pool speed is better not because of what you spend but rather what you force them to do.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On February 15 2008 05:40 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
excellent, excellent writeup man. it appears i have completely misunderstood 9 pool speed.
q {ZvP}
Keep in mind im like a d+/c- zerg player. recently i have been fond of opening zvp with a 9 pool no speed for the purpose of delaying P's nexus, as he wil react by building a couple cannons.
something like:
9pool
9drone
ext trick
ovie
6 lings
expo
is it viable to build 3 drones after the pool instead of 6 lings, and then expanding yourself while his cannons warp in? essentially you would trick him into delaying his expo at the cost of 200 minerals (and a later 1st ovie), but is it worth it compared to just 12 hatching?
also, do you have any tips for playing vs reaver/sair? my preference is hydra play, aiming for lategame with defilers. sunk/spore at all expansions, spaced to force many dwebs if he goes that route. i get burrow for drones and ling scouting (although parasite seems very attractive), because i feel like air control is almost imopossible - especially on a map like RoV, where there is nowhere for land units in between the mains. generally i have the most difficulty when toss keeps 1-2 reavers (maybe a temp) at his expos, with just tons of cannons, while his main reaver sair force shoots around the map harassing me so i can't effectively attack. any general tips/strategies for facing this would be very appreciated.
3 drones after 9pool is not viable. Its like taking a volkswagon instead of a Lamborgini (spelling?). I wont elaborate beyond this because the answer is simply, no. Just trust me on it.
As for the reaver/corsair defense this is a great question. I like to do a couple of things. Firstly, you need to sniff it out early. The reaver sair b/o is MOST effective (as are all things hehe) when you dont see it coming. So often P's will hide the tech within their base. You can smell this by seeing an idle forge, no zealot timing or simply sacrificing a second overlord to get a look-see. If you in fact are facing reaver/sair 1 evo +1 hydra attack is good and the game style needs to adapt. You are playing a cat and mouse game.. only the cat can regrow limbs. Each time you lose an expansion AT LEAST replace it, if not add another. The idea here is that you capitalize on the slower and high demanding bo of the protoss to weigh them down. While all you have to do is manage your expansions and move hydras around the map. While this is going on I like to upgrade armor on my spire for late game but also tech to drop. I do this because reaver/sair is MOST common on maps with island expansions, the protoss wants them. Dont let it happen, or at least make it hard. If you cant, use the drops to harrass the main base/production while you lurker drop mineral lines. An important thing to note is that often times when a z loses to a reaver/sair bo its not the actual reaver or sairs that do them in.. but rather the protoss secures enough macro to then switch to a ground army accompanied by the harrassing of reaver/sairs. Mind the tech of the protoss! If you see the switch add an evo chamber and make some lurkers. You should have also tech'd and should be able to make defilers/cracks/ultras etc.
Aside from that, the name of the game is starvation. The protoss NEEDS to secure expansions, if you can deny that with patrolling scourge and roving groups of hydras you will eventually see the protoss run dry.. and lose the game.
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On February 15 2008 09:33 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2008 09:25 fusionsdf wrote:
oh also,
on a map like blue storm with a really wide choke, is it suicidal to do anything other than 9pool speed because of the threat of ling back stab? Are any other builds viable on that map? 9pool after overlord is good cause it absorbs the 9pool speed with slightly better macro. 12pool 11 gas is fine too but you might need a sunk. 9pool speed is better not because of what you spend but rather what you force them to do.
What do you force them to do if they block their ramp? Is it crucial to break ramp?
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EPT
